Dr. Ross Barron (2:23)

I did. Oh, yeah. It's pretty hilarious. And I had a T shirt that said bark for Bob because he's really into animal rights.

Hank (2:30)

Yeah, he was.

Dr. Ross Barron (2:31)

Yeah, that's right.

Hank (2:32)

Get your pet spayed or neutered.

Dr. Ross Barron (2:33)

Yeah, I remember exactly. Look at you, Hank.

Hank (2:36)

Oh, yeah, I remember. I had to go ask my mom what that meant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. John, I'm telling you, over the course of this year we're gonna get more like this. He's just, he really has done everything. I hope everyone will listen. These aren't the standard come follow me lessons. These are additions, like Voices of the Restoration last year.

John (2:56)

What I remember was your Old Testament time when you talked about the fact that you would have question and answer sessions with folks from all faiths. You even did that on the radio at one point, isn't that right?

Dr. Ross Barron (3:08)

Correct.

Hank (3:09)

Yep.

Dr. Ross Barron (3:09)

In la.

John (3:10)

I would love to listen, but I would not love to be in the hot seat for that one. I would say, can I phone a friend, Ross Lifeline. Yeah, yeah, Lifelines.

Hank (3:21)

In fact, why don't we just bring him on in and have him do this for us.

John (3:23)

I'll go ahead and take a seat. And that's why we're here. There's a lot of different categories we're looking at today. The thoughts to keep in mind lesson is simply called reading the Old Testament. I'm so excited about this because, Hank, Old Testament is an area where I don't feel as strong as some of the others. Maybe there's a lot of us out there that feel that way and that's why I'm so glad to have Ross here to help us. He is so smart, but he can speak to those of us who are new at this reading the Old Testament. Ross, where do you want to take us today?

Dr. Ross Barron (3:55)

The idea for today's episode, I have like top 10 things to keep in mind. So hopefully our mind capacity to 10 things. Then I wanted to do, once we did the top 10 things to keep in mind, I thought we could actually go into a couple of verses where we can model some of these ideas.

John (4:13)

Wonderful. What an adjustment from the Doctrine and Covenants where it's modern scripture. These are people that are a couple of centuries removed from us. But when we're starting the Old Testament, how many centuries are we going back here?

Dr. Ross Barron (4:26)

Yeah, we're talking big time, far away.

Hank (4:29)

It's a foreign country. One, it's massive compared to all the other scriptures. It's intimidating because it's a big book. Two, it's like really, I don't understand most of it. I'm going to read the Book of Mormon this year. I'm going to go back to the Book of Mormon this year and I'm sure it's important and maybe I'll pick up a couple of things, maybe convince us, maybe give us A persuasive speech on what do you see here?

Dr. Ross Barron (4:55)

I think that's a critical question. One of the things to keep in mind is that the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible is the setting for the Book of Mormon. In other words, if you're like, I love the Book of Mormon, you're actually in an Old Testament setting when you're reading the Book of Mormon until Christ comes. So we're talking first Nephi through third Nephi 11. You're in an Old Testament setting when you are reading the Book of Mormon. You are 100% contextually situated in an Old Testament text. If you're like, oh, I don't understand the Old Testament, which I get, there can be some tough things and we're going to work through those. But what I'm saying is that the Book of Mormon essentially is an Old Testament book.

Hank (5:37)

Four years ago we went through the Old Testament. John, you and I both are pretty honest here. I saw the Book of Mormon in a brand new light. As we studied the Old Testament, things clicked. Oh, that's why Lehi says that. Oh, that's why King Benjamin gathered them together in their tents. Ross, what I'm hearing you say is, hey, you want to love the Book of Mormon even more, come with us.

Dr. Ross Barron (6:05)

I heard somebody phrase it this way. I'm not sure I'm convinced of it yet. The keystone to the keystone, right, the keystone is the Book of Mormon, but the keystone to the keystone is the Old Testament. I think that's an interesting way to phrase it. By the way, I would even say with what you were saying earlier about, oh, it's so huge, we can prioritize things. I think we can look where prophets and apostles are focusing in terms of the Old Testament. We can look at where Jesus focuses in the Old Testament, where Paul focuses in the Old Testament. Even Nephi, he's going to bring up particular stories from the Old Testament, as are Alma and others that will focus our attention. This is probably where we should be focusing. I love the Book of Habakkuk, don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure Habakkuk is the book we should focus on all year because there's not, there's.

Hank (6:49)

Not prophets in other books.

Dr. Ross Barron (6:51)

Exactly. And I don't want Habakkuk mad at me in the spirit world. But you get what I'm saying, he's an awesome prophet. It's just not been a focus of either Jesus or of Book of Mormon prophets. That's all I'm saying.

Hank (7:02)

I'm grateful for that. I love the scriptures. I spend my career in the scriptures. But I can absolutely see someone who's thinking, I don't have time for this kind of thing. And I know there's power in the Book of Mormon. I'm going to keep learning it, but I hope those listening today will think, you know, I'm going to stick with it this year, maybe for the first time in my life, I'm going to really grasp not all of it, none of us understand all of it, but a lot more than you used to.

Dr. Ross Barron (7:26)

When I teach Jesus Christ in the everlasting Gospel, we spent a chunk of time in the Old Testament. I do a top five at the end of my class. They have to write an assignment. Their top five favorite assignments and why. They always refer to something we talked about in the Old Testament that changed their perspective, that really helped them understand or that even motivated them to be closer to Christ. That's super critical.

Hank (7:46)

Yeah, I love it.

Dr. Ross Barron (7:47)

Let's jump in. I'm going to do my top 10, talking about each one. The first idea, and this isn't going to surprise anybody. We should first and foremost seek the companionship of the Spirit, the Old Testament. Hank, you said it earlier, it's like traveling to a foreign country that is 100% correct. Cultures, traditions, language, even euphemisms, they're so different. We need the companionship of the Spirit to help us, guide us through what is important, what's not important. How do I understand this and how does this help me in my life? Elder Kim B. Clark, former Commissioner of Church education, General Authority 70, a former president of BYU, Idaho, former dean of the Harvard Business School. He gave a talk about deep learning. Three things. He said. This is what is deep learning. Number one, you know and understand. Number two, you take effective righteous action. And number three, it helps you become more like your Heavenly Father. Think about that. I want to do deep learning. And it's not just spiritual stuff. Deep learning applies to statistics and to biology and humanities. But as it relates to our study of the Old Testament, knowing and understanding. Knowing to me is head. Understanding is when it drops to the heart. You have to have the Holy Ghost. Number two, you take effective righteous action. It's not about knowing a ton of stuff. It's actually about doing things. And then number three, the point of doing those things is to help me become like our Heavenly Father. That is awesome. As we're studying, I want us to look for deep learning. I want us to look for places where we can have those kinds of experiences. Playing A musical instrument, learning another language, learning a sport. All are deep learning activities. It's so interesting. I grew up, Hank, you said, I grew up surfing. I did Southern California surfed every day. People would say, tell me about surfing. I want to learn how to surf. Well, you can't read books about surfing. You actually have to go surfing. You're going to make a ton of mistakes. You have to take the action and then it's going to help you become something different. I taught mission prep for years. I love mission prep. But there's a point in mission prep where I'm like, I can't tell you anything more about being a missionary. You have to go be a missionary. You have to go. I don't want to tell you about planning your day anymore. I just like, go be. And I think Elder Bednar gave a talk years ago. Remember when he said the best preparation for mission is to be a missionary now you got to be a missionary now. Had an interesting deep learning experience with Kim B. Clark that you guys might enjoy. And when I first came to BYU, Idaho in 2005, my mom and dad, who are not members of the church, they were a little concerned I was leaving Southern California, going up to Rexburg, Idaho. Everybody was like, what's going to go on? What's going on? Elder Bednar had been called into the 12 in 2004. So they had an interim president, a guy named Bob Wilkes, and then they were calling a new president. Kimby Clark has been called to be the new president. The former dean of the Harvard Business School. Unbeknownst to me, my mom and dad were listening to Kim B. Clark in an interview on a program called Charlie Rose. Charlie Rose used to do lengthy interviews, very similar to the way you guys do the podcast my mom and dad are watching again, I don't know anything about this. Charlie Rose says, Dr. Clark, why in the world would you go to Rexburg, Idaho to lead a little teeny four year college? And like, what, you're the dean of the Harvard Business School? Like you're the pinnacle of the world. And he goes, well, Charlie, if Moses asked you to do something, would you do it? And Charlie Rose kind of caught off guard. This is like a secular program. Charlie Rose says, well, well, I guess if Moses asked me to do something, I'd do it. And then Elder Clark says, moses asked me to do this and his name's Gordon B. Hinckley. My mom and dad are listening to this and they're like, whoa, we're feeling something. We don't know what we're feeling. This is incredible. They call me up and they're like, we love Kim Clark. Like, they're going off. I haven't met him. Then we have a meeting. It's our first meeting in the Taylor Chapel at BYU Idaho, and it's Kim Clark in this meeting. I'll never forget it. It was the faculty there and Kim Clark. And he gives this inaugural to the faculty. And they did his Q and A. And I raised my hand and I said, president Clark, I just want to thank you for your Charlie Rose interview because it really affected my mom and dad, who aren't members of the church. And he's like, oh, thanks so much. The next day, I'm on the quad and he was there, and he's like, hey, you.

John (12:15)

You.

Dr. Ross Barron (12:15)

I don't remember your name. And I said, yeah, president. And he said, I've been thinking about your parents all night. I want to invite them up as my personal guests for my inauguration when the first presidency comes. He goes, do you think they'd be ok, okay with that? I was like, yes. Call my mom and dad. They're like, that's so great. So they extend an official invitation. My mom and dad got to be like, with the first presidency. And, like, I didn't get to go into any of those things. They did.

Hank (12:44)

Ross, tell us about your parents a little bit.

Dr. Ross Barron (12:46)

Like, what am I.

Hank (12:46)

What am I envisioning here?

Dr. Ross Barron (12:48)

As of right now, they're 93 years old. They're doing amazing. They live alone. They have a busier social calendar than I do. They travel around. It's incredible. But because of that experience with Kim Clark and subsequent experiences with Kim Clark, whenever they're in circles that you and I could not get in in Los Angeles, somebody will say something about or against the church. My mom and dad will be like, no, that's not true. That is not the case. We know these people. We've been in meetings with them. We met President Hinckley. We know Kim Clark. It's incredible. I believe the Lord orchestrated that opportunity, and they defend the church and promote the church. My mom says she tells my conversion story more than I do. She wants me to make a pamphlet out she can just hand out. Because people always say, how many grandkids do you have? And my mom will say, well, we have two children and we have 11 grandchildren. And then she'll go, oh, each one has five or six. No, my son has nine. Is he a rabbi? And my mom will be like, kind of. Anyway, there you go. That's the End. That's my Kim Clark story. With deep learning and how powerful that is. First and foremost we seek the companionship of the Spirit. We use the Spirit, number one, so we can know and understand, so we can take effective righteous action and so we can become more like our Heavenly Father. That's key in understanding the Old Testament. That's number one. Number two things to keep in mind. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament, same God we over index in the church that the God of the Old Testament is wrathful, vengeful, harsh, and even in latter day Saint gospel doctrine classes that comes up all the time. But Jehovah, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and he has the same character, attributes and perfections as the God of the New Testament. I actually say we've got to keep in mind this all the time. And a superficial reading without understanding certain things of the Old Testament might lead one to make that assumption or make that conclusion quickly. But that's not the case. As you're reading the Old Testament, you look for Jesus Christ. You look for and deepen your love for him and what's being taught about him. What is being taught about the Savior. I'm going to emphasize that through the year and hopefully in some other episodes I might show. I have one particular thing where I want to show specifically how we reconcile that to make sure we understand that the God in the New Testament, God of the Old Testament Testament, same God. Ross.

Hank (15:27)

I think this is pretty critical because it's almost as if we categorize, wow, the God of the Old Testament is mean and here comes Jesus, this really.

Dr. Ross Barron (15:38)

Merciful, so nice guy.

Hank (15:40)

When you read closely, it's not true.

Dr. Ross Barron (15:43)

It actually misunderstands the God of the New Testament and misunderstands the God of the Old Testament. We know from lectures on faith that having a correct idea of God's character, attribute and perfections is the first principle to actually having faith leading unto life and salvation. So we got to get that. You got to get three things right. You got to get who God is, you got to get who we are, and then ironically, you got to get who Satan is. And if you get those three things right, you're going to go right. For example, if you go to the temple, I don't know what you're going to totally get your first time out of the temple, but you're going to know who God is, you're going to know who we are in relation to God and you're going to know who Satan is. If you go to Joseph Smith in the grove, when Joseph Smith comes out of the grove, he knows who God is, he knows who he is, and he knows who Satan is. You go to Moses, chapter one, his experience. He knows who God is, he knows who he is, and he knows who Satan is. My concept here is that by understanding the Old Testament, we deepen and powerfully expand our understanding of who God is, who we are, and who Satan is.

John (16:42)

Because those things come out if nothing else happens. That framework for starting the Old Testament. Exactly. Look for the Savior, look for Jehovah, look for Jesus. As you read the Old Testament, that alone will bless everybody. Gives us a way to focus. When you said, who God is, who we are, who Satan is, I went, oh, that's Joseph Smith. And then you said it, Sacred Grove.

Hank (17:06)

And then I said, that's Moses 1. And I'm also thinking of the temptations of Jesus. Same thing. Baptism temptations.

Dr. Ross Barron (17:14)

The temptations are so critical because we all think the temptation initially is turn the stones to bread. But the actual first temptation, and through it all, the thread is it's an identity temptation. If thou be the son of God, it's who you are. And then the bookend the temptations in Matthew 4. And then later, on the cross, if you be the son of God, come down off the cross, the identity temptation never leaves who you are in relation to God and who Satan is. Wow. Power. Power. We ready to roll?

John (17:44)

That's President Nelson, Child of God, child of the covenant, disciple of Christ, Identity. Awesome.

Dr. Ross Barron (17:51)

Always remember that number three. This is going to be hard. Okay, everyone, breathe. O the way history was is not the way history had to be. Follow me. Follow me. I'm going to use the story of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. Then I'm going to go back to the fall because this is going to be tough. I'm going to need people to think through this. Joseph. In my view, Joseph is going to go down into Egypt. That is God's plan. But he doesn't have to go down to Egypt because his brothers sell him. Now, circling back to the fall. Adam and Eve are going to leave the garden. And to leave the garden, they got to eat the fruit. But they don't have to listen to Satan to do it. Ooh. Because the way history was is not the way history had to be.

Hank (18:38)

Ross, I think you're right on. People have to have agency, and it can't be. Well, they had to do that. Satan had to do what he did. The brothers had to sell in.

Dr. Ross Barron (18:48)

Amen.

John (18:49)

Isn't one school of thought, basically everything that happens must have been God's will. And you're like, well, didn't it say in Matthew it is not the will of the Father that any of these little ones should perish, but little ones do perish. Is everything that happens God's will? No, there's this free agency thing going on here. Is he able, though, to turn things to good like he did for Joseph? Yeah. And he says, so. That's a great point.

Dr. Ross Barron (19:15)

The way history was is not the way history had to be. And I just want to be clear that people don't think I've gone too far. Joseph's going to Egypt, Adam and Eve are going to leave the garden. It just doesn't have to necessarily be the way that that happened.

Hank (19:29)

That is so important. I want to throw in one more thing because I love it. David McCullough comes to BYU, I can't remember early 2000s, and says something so simple. He said, nobody ever lived in the past. No one ever looks around and goes, isn't this crazy here being in the past? Look at us in our authentic clothes. I can't wait for Fill in the blank to happen. He said, when you do that, you lose all the courage. Washington didn't know that he was going to cross the Delaware and win. If you think he did, you lose the enormity of that decision. There's obviously prophets in the Old Testament, but you can't see Joseph going, well, I can't wait till I get to Egypt and save the family. He doesn't know.

Dr. Ross Barron (20:19)

No, that's great. And McCullough of course, wrote those amazing books, 1776 and. Yeah, phenomenal. Great historian.

Hank (20:27)

We can link that in the show notes. What are we on number four?

Dr. Ross Barron (20:30)

We're number four. This is what I suggest. Let's say the assignment for Come Follow me is Genesis 1 through 6. My suggestion is read through it. I don't want to say fast, but read through it to get the lay of the land. As you're getting the lay of land, you look for converting principles, look for Jesus Christ. You look for connections to be made and what it can teach me about Christ. Then you go back, follow me on this, and you focus on those things and slow way down. I'm going to do Genesis 1 through 6.

Hank (21:03)

Boom.

Dr. Ross Barron (21:03)

I'm going to read it pretty quick, get the lay of the land, figure out kind of what's going on. I should be able to explain the storyline to somebody as I was reading little converting principles all along the way. And then I'm going to go back and I'm going to slow way down on those things. I want to model that a little bit a little later. So number five is then ask questions of the text. One of the assignments I give my students is to ask questions of the text. Sometimes I'll say, I want you to take this verse and I need you to come back with 15 relevant questions for that text. And they'll be like, that's impossible. You can't ask 15 questions of that text. And I'll go, ah, that's the assignment. Go do it. They'll generally come back saying that was one of the most helpful things. Slow down, look at the text, ask questions. So my son, my oldest son Josh has a 12 year old son named Spencer. And Spencer had to give a talk. And the talk was on Luke 2:52. Jesus increased in stature and favor with God and with man. My son said, okay, Spencer, go ask 11 questions of the text. And Spencer was like, there's no possible way.

Hank (22:06)

It's one verse.

Dr. Ross Barron (22:07)

Yeah, yeah, it's one verse. Yeah. No, impossible. So he came back and he said, my son was looking at his questions, he's like, these are really good. And one of them was, in what ways did Jesus increase in his social like, connection with men? Spencer goes, that's the question I'm wondering about. And my son was like, okay, so what do you think? He goes, well, he must have known him pretty well because he gave the apostles nicknames. That's awesome. Yeah, that is so insightful. He slowed down, asked a question of the text. The text drew him to other things. Then he starts to learn about the character and nature of Jesus. What a powerful deal that is.

Hank (22:48)

That's beautiful.

Dr. Ross Barron (22:49)

Ask questions of the text. We're going to talk about that too. Number six, consider the context of the scriptures. Hank, you said it like out of the gate. And I say, remember that you're traveling in a foreign land. It's so funny. I worked with this guy right before my mission. His name was Isidro Sid, Spanish guy from Mexico, spoke amazing English, amazing man, inspiring, worked hard, wasn't a Latter Day Saint. And at the end of the day he would say to me, ross, I'm so tired and sick of this day. And I'd be like, sid, we don't say tired and sick. We say sick and tired. And he's like, I said sick and tired. I said, no, you said tired and sick. If a native speaker says tired and sick, that means they're tired and they're sick. But if they say sick and tired, that means they're frustrated. And he goes, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And I go, that is dumb. But again, a native speaker picks that up instantly. We're in the Old Testament. It's a foreign land. They're saying things, we think we understand them. We're reading too fast. We might not understand. It might be Sid saying, I'm so tired and sick of this day. And all native speakers are going, no, you're not. You know you're not. Are you tired? Because you guys are both native speakers. You instantly picked it up. He did that wrong. That happens all the time when we're reading ancient scripture, that we've got to be tuned in and be humble enough to say, okay, okay, I'm in this foreign land. I need to be respectful of cultures, customs, languages, euphemisms, colloquialisms. And where can I go for help? Well, sometimes we're going to connect to the Book of Mormon, which is going to help us understand it. We're going to triangulate it with the Doctrine and Covenants, with the Pearl of Great Price, and other things that'll help us. That's my number six.

Hank (24:38)

Yeah. Occasionally, it's definitely not the majority of our listeners, but occasionally we'll hear from someone who will say, I don't do podcasts. I want to go straight to the source myself. And it's highly critical. And I get that. I get that when it comes to things like that. Idioms in the Old Testament.

John (24:58)

Yeah.

Hank (24:58)

The only place I've learned them is from those who have studied this, those who speak Hebrew. And I remember Elder Ballard saying, use these resources that we have in the church. He even said at a BYU devotional, once I go to the experts here at byu when I want to know about some history, I can find the exact quote for you. I am not saying that podcasts are the great. You gotta listen to a come follow me podcast if you really want to know the scriptures. But one of the reasons we do what we do is to provide Ross speaks Hebrew. He's going to show us some things. I don't care how many times I read it. I would never see it because I don't speak Hebrew.

Dr. Ross Barron (25:47)

That's true. I love what you're saying. I listen to your podcast, by the way. I love the insights of these scholars, of people that know the text, that have paid a price. It inspires me, then to go dig deeper in the source.

Hank (26:00)

Exactly.

Dr. Ross Barron (26:01)

I cannot tell you how many times I have Been inspired by one of your guests to go then dig deeper for myself. And then again, I know and understand. I take effective, righteous action and I become more like my heavenly Father, which is deep learning inspired by someone who's paid a price. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. That's awesome.

Hank (26:23)

Where is it in the Book of Acts where someone's reading the book of Isaiah.

Dr. Ross Barron (26:27)

Do you understand what you're reading? Philip the Eunuch should guide me. Yeah, we've all said that, right? Yeah. Do you understand what you're reading?

Hank (26:35)

No, absolutely not. Well, let me help you.

John (26:39)

Well, just keep trying. Bye. Yeah, that's not.

Hank (26:41)

Keep reading the same thing over and over, right?

John (26:44)

Yeah.

Dr. Ross Barron (26:44)

No, that's awesome.

Hank (26:45)

Thank you for saying that, Hank.

John (26:47)

I'm glad you said that. I got to teach a class at FSY this year that was really fun. And one of the classes, they ask every teacher to share. One of the beginning classes is to learn to use trusted sources beyond your standard works. I remember a time when I had a couple of converts in my class. Guess how long they had been members when they got in my class? Two weeks. Suddenly, I'm trying to listen with their ears. That's super, super helpful.

Dr. Ross Barron (27:22)

That's great. I want to bring up the Joseph Smith translation. Please, please, please use the Joseph Smith translation. It's footnoted or it's in your appendix. I was wondering if we could for a moment go to Section 35 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Some people don' what the Joseph Smith translation is. This verse is power. Section 35 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This is New York, December, 1830. Now, we just got out of Doctrine and Covenants. So you guys know that Oliver Cowdery, Parley P. Pratt, Peter Whitmer and Debuz Peterson have gone on a mission, and they stopped in Kirtland, baptized, I think, 127 people in a couple of weeks. One of them was Sidney Rigdon. Sidney Rignon is so excited. He's going to leave Kirtland, go up to Palmyra and try to meet Joseph. And he does. He meets Joseph. And we get section 35 of the Doctrine and Covenants in it. Verse 20. He's going to say, this is the first verse about what the Joseph Smith translation is. I'm reading section 35, verse 20. And a commandment I give unto thee, that is Sydney, that thou, Sydney, shall write for him. Joseph. The Book of Mormon's already been translated. We're not talking about that. Oliver's on a mission. Oliver was the scribe, essentially. Other People were too. But Oliver essentially and the Scriptures shall be given, even as they are in mine own bosom, to the salvation of my own elect. Now notice the Scripture shall be given even as they are in my own bosom, not even as they are in ancient manuscripts, not even as they are in original Hebrew or original Greek or whatever the person spoke. I use the Joseph Smith translations and I think there's some verses that without it would be highly problematic figuring out who God is, who we are, and who Satan is. Go to Exodus, chapter four. This is when Moses has been called. He doesn't really want to be the prophet, but the Lord is called him and he's going to go before Pharaoh. The King James, chapter 4, verse 21 says, and the Lord said unto Moses, when thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand, but I will harden his heart that he shall not let the people go. Theologically, that's a problem because again, we're back, John, on what you said about agency, about free will.

John (29:54)

God's hardening hearts.

Dr. Ross Barron (29:55)

Yeah, God's hardening his heart. What chance does Pharaoh have? Now, if you look at footnote 21C, it actually reads after you got which I have put in thine hand and I will prosper thee, but Pharaoh will harden his heart and he will not let the people go. Wow. Thank you. Problem solved. I don't have to tie myself up in yoga positions trying to figure out what's going on there. Theologically, I can now understand via a prophet. Again, as I teach, I'm always going to the jst, always going to the gst. If there's a jst, I'm using it. And I actually think it's one of the witnesses of the prophet Joseph Smith and of his divine mission. I do. I find it powerful. Use Scripture Study helps. Use I love what you said, John about trusted resources. Use Bible Hub, Use the Blue Letter Bible, Use the words of living prophets via the citation index and use the Joseph Smith translation. Okay, so that's number seven.

Hank (30:52)

Let me ask you a quick question. Where do you go for other versions of the Bible? I particularly like Bible Hub. Not a Latter Day Saint site.

Dr. Ross Barron (30:59)

I use blueletterbible.org it's also free. What I like about it, I've used it for a long time. I love Bible Hub as well. But I can click on Bibles and I can get 27 different versions of that verse and just do a comparison. It's powerful. So whether it's the niv, the asb, the rsv, or any other version. I can look quickly and compare.

Hank (31:23)

I want to throw one more thing at you, and this isn't really Old Testament, but it is going to come up. Occasionally a student, a friend will ask me, wait, wait, wait, wait. Joseph Smith changed something in Isaiah to say this, yet it doesn't say that in the Book of Mormon. So I've got a version of Isaiah in the Bible, I've got a JST version, and then I've got a Book of Mormon version. And all three of them are different. That's a question that I've been asked many, many times. So either of you want to take that on?

Dr. Ross Barron (31:52)

So when Moroni shows up, he quotes the Malachi prophecy and he quotes in a particular way. And then Joseph in section 128, he'll say, I'm going to write it this way because it suits my purposes. I could have written a different way, but it's fine the way it is now. I think that's super interesting that there is a latitude with the Holy Ghost, with prophets, and with particular peoples at particular times to hear things a particular way. Joseph used to don't put stakes around the Almighty. In other words, don't put limits around the Almighty. If he wants us to understand Malachi in this particular way, cool. And then Moroni speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, 2 Nephi 32, 3, he can then expand it for a different particular way. And then Joseph the prophet can use it his way as well. And I think that's totally, perfectly fine. That would be my response.

John (32:44)

The way I've tried to explain it, and you guys tell me if I'm right, is sometimes we think the Scriptures have to be one way. It's static. I want to find the earliest form. You know, that's. What do they call it? Textual criticism. I want to find the earliest one, and that one's the most true. Well, what if a prophet comes along and says, I'm going to make that a little clearer. It's not that one is untrue, it's just that another one gives you more insight. Just like what you said. He quoted Malachi differently. I will plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers. It's a more dynamic thing. All of those are are true and we can learn from all of them. It's not that there's one correct and one false. Also. Ross, tell us something about. If you could rename the Joseph Smith translation, what might you call it? The Joseph Smith Is it always translating lost texts?

Dr. Ross Barron (33:35)

No, no. In fact, I think. I'm so glad you asked that. I actually think Joseph Smith translation, the word translation can create some problems because I've translated Hebrew to English. I use a lexicon and I use verb charts and I use a computer and I use what people in the past have said. That's not what Joseph's doing. We're going to use the word translate, and it's very loose. That's why I always go to section 35, verse 20. I'm going to reveal to my servant Joseph the things that are in my own bosom. Not things that are in ancient manuscripts necessarily. Right now, Section 7 of the Doctrine Covenants.

Hank (34:15)

It could be.

Dr. Ross Barron (34:16)

Yeah, it absolutely could be. But what if we got an original Matthew? Like, what if somebody said, this is the original Matthew and we might look at the JSTs, they might not be exactly the same. And I would be 100. Fine. He never claimed he was doing that. We don't want to make claims for Joseph that Joseph's not making for himself. I love John that you brought that up. And I bring that up with my classes. Super important to understand. By the way, the Book of Abraham. One of the big problems when people talk about the Book of Abraham is they get into a. A conversation where they want to stake out ground about translating. Well, Joseph isn't translating the way Egyptologists translate. I'm not criticizing Egyptologists. I'm glad there's Egyptologists.

Hank (34:59)

We know a few. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Barron (35:01)

And they're amazing. But Joseph's not claiming to do that. Yeah.

John (35:05)

Thank you for saying that. Sometimes I think I want to call it the Joseph Smith clarification or the Joseph Smith revelation and some science. Maybe that is original text. We could get so fastened to the words and the oldest text that when Jesus comes and says something, we're going to go, hey, wait a minute, you've got that reverse on that. I think that's probably a bad idea. When the Word shows up and gives us the Word, he's going to give us more. We're not going to say, I don't know where you got that. Show me chapter and verse. That would be a bad idea.

Hank (35:41)

I would add that we really have to get rid of the idea that there is a correct way. Like there is one correct way way. Ross, that scripture you mentioned, how many times did it come up in Scripture? I will send you the prophet. I will say, and it's almost different every single time. I guarantee, if I had all of them in front of me, I'd say, lord, which one's right? And he would say, ah, all of them. I like this one for this reason. I like this one for this reason.

John (36:06)

Yeah. What didn't he say later? I could have rendered a plainer translation. I could have said, bind or seal instead of turning.

Hank (36:14)

I would love to see Moroni going. You'd render it differently, huh? Yeah, I like how you said it. But I would say it this way. And then Malachi comes over and says, actually, why don't we talk to the original guy? Yeah, I love it, Ross. Let's see. Scripture is very fluid.

Dr. Ross Barron (36:35)

Dynamic, and prophetically. Not static, prophetically guided. I'm going to read something from President Oaks. Is that okay? When he was elder Oaks quote, if we harden our hearts, reject continuing revelation, and limit our learning to what we can obtain by study and reason on the precise language of the present canon of Scriptures, our understanding will be limited to what Alma called the lesser portion of the word. The Lord promised Nephi. Unto him that receiveth, I will give more. And from them that shall say we have enough, from them shall be taken away, even that which they have. Second Nephi 28:30. That verse capsulizes the Latter Day Saint belief in the importance of continuing revelation as we read and interpret Scriptures. Even if there were no additional revelation to be added to the published canon, an open canon would still be an essential part of our belief and practice in scripture reading. We believe that the scriptures, which are a revelation of the past, cannot be understood without openness to the revelations of the present. Unquote.

John (37:43)

Beautiful.

Dr. Ross Barron (37:44)

I want to give the reference. It's Dallin H. Oaks, Scripture Reading in Revelation. Ensign, January 1995.

John (37:51)

Oh, love it. And that goes along with Dr. Millet's experience. The canon is open.

Dr. Ross Barron (37:56)

Exactly.

John (37:57)

Aren't we thrilled about that? I tell my students, if we, if we get more scriptures, you're going to have a lot more of these religion classes.

Dr. Ross Barron (38:07)

Well, also, I don't know if you guys remember, but John, you brought up when I did that, those community firesides. And in one of my statements I made, I said, the church isn't based on the Bible. It's based on what the Bible's based on, and that's revelation through prophets. And then the guy asked me, well, is the church based on the Book of Mormon? And I said, nope, it's based on what the Book of Mormon's based on. Revelation through prophets. That is absolutely critical to understand. That is the most powerful position you can be in. By the way. Way, the church is not based on the Bible. It's based on what? The Bible is based on Revelation through prophets. Boom. Pow.

Hank (38:43)

Yeah. After you offended everyone else in the room.

Dr. Ross Barron (38:48)

Exactly.

Hank (38:50)

Ross, tell me. I mean, you, you've had interaction with many, many different faiths. Joseph Smith, how old is he in 1830? What is he, 25?

Dr. Ross Barron (39:00)

1830 is 24. He'll be 25.

Hank (39:02)

He comes along, says, let me change the Bible.

Dr. Ross Barron (39:05)

Yep.

John (39:06)

The audacity. Yeah, it was. It's kind of like Jesus comes along. Well, you've heard it said of old time, this. But I say this. Who does he think he is? Actually, he knows who he is and.

Dr. Ross Barron (39:18)

Yep, he does know who he is. Yeah. I'm going to say number eight. This is really critical because expectations, if they're false, then they're not met and then we get all disappointed. Don't expect the Old Testament to present a thorough and precise history of humankind. That's not its intent. That's not what the original authors and compilers were trying to do. And, and, and that is really not an ancient world way to think. They're not trying to create a linear historical thing. So people are like, wait, what's going on? We don't have to worry about that. It's not a precise history of humankind. That's not what it is. That's not what they wanted. And that's really an expectation thing. You don't have to worry about it. We're okay. We're totally okay.

Hank (40:09)

Ross, as you and I talked about coming on for these thoughts to keep in mind lessons, I know you were interested. You went right to the manual and there you just quoted it. Don't expect the Old Testament to present a thorough and precise history of humankind a little bit later. Did all of the prophets, poets, compilers, know their words would be read by people all over the world thousands of years later? We don't know. But we marvel that this is exactly what happened. Nations rose and fell, cities were conquered, kings lived and died, but the Old Testament outlasted them all. I like that. What's your expectation coming in?

John (40:42)

That same idea specifically for the creation story. Was the creation story to present the scientific methods that God used to make the universe, or is it a story to get something else from? Because we have how many different creation accounts? Pearl of great price and the temple in Genesis. They don't have to match perfectly because that's not the intent.

Hank (41:06)

That's not the intent.

Dr. Ross Barron (41:07)

No, that's exactly right. Beautiful. Number nine. Sometimes we want our prophets to be perfect.

John (41:14)

Right.

Dr. Ross Barron (41:15)

We want the house of Israel to be perfect. We want all these things to be a particular way.

Hank (41:21)

Why?

Dr. Ross Barron (41:21)

Because we have expectations about what a prophet ought to be or what. What people that follow Jesus ought to be. But we're all in this thing, trying to work it out. One of the coolest things about the Old Testament is it doesn't sanitize the text. You get Genesis 27, and Isaac's kind of senile. Rebecca's like, you need a blessing. I don't know if dad's gonna give you the right blessing. And we're in a million different machinations to try to get the blessing. And you know what my take is at the end of Genesis 27 is that everyone got the blessing they were gonna get anyway. By the way, with saying that, I'm not trying to criticize Isaac, Rebecca. I am going to criticize Jacob a little bit in this one. And Esau, the idea is that they made mistakes. It's okay. It's okay. And the Lord works through that. You don't have to sanitize it. We don't have to make it perfect. Then teaching wise, you don't have to go out of your way to try to make it perfect. Students will be like, but wait, did Jacob lie? Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. Well, is that okay? No. And in fact, over the next five chapters, he's going to get karma. Like, you don't even believe. He's going to be lied to and deceived in multiple ways. Then he becomes a different person. He actually raises up and becomes a different person, wrestles with God, gets a new name and becomes the man he needed to become. He lied. It's okay. Like, that's. That's what the text says. I say, don't try to sanitize the text. Let the text speak. Which will, by the way, elevate God. It elevates God working through imperfect human beings, points to the perfection, beauty, grandeur, and majesty of Jesus Christ and allows human beings to be human beings. So when your bishop doesn't say hi to you as he's walking down the hallway, don't leave the church. He's working through it as well. He's trying to figure stuff out. And if president, you know, the church is older, that's okay. God is using these human beings who he trusts to do his work. My number nine is don't try to sanitize the text.

Hank (43:29)

Russ, play that out in a seminary class or a Sunday school class. Why is this so important? And it is.

Dr. Ross Barron (43:37)

Yeah. I think it's so critical I believe in a seminary class and in a gospel doctrine class, it will be refreshing to members when you let the text stand and then just pull back and say, what are the principles? What points of doctrine did we learn from that text? Don't try to push it. Because what we try to do then is like, well, what he meant was, or what he said was, but that's not what the text said. Then we start setting up a false idol almost, and then it's too easy to knock down. So don't do it. Just don't do it. It's refreshing. I especially young people, 18 to 30 years old, they want it. They want the truth unvarnished, kind of J. Ren Clark. You don't have to sneak up on them. You don't have to whisper it in their ears. They just want it out there. So you're reading Genesis 27. It's a funky story. I'm like, down, let's go. Let's bring it. The principle in the end that everyone got the blessing, they would have got anyway. That's power. When Isaac laid his hands on those heads, he gave the blessing thing. God can do his work. Don't sanitize the text. It's there for a reason.

Hank (44:44)

This is a New Testament reference. James and John want to blow up a Samaritan village.

John (44:52)

Blow him up. That is suggested to Jesus, right?

Hank (44:56)

That's genocide. Do you want to blow up this race? And if you say, wow, that's not really what they meant. They're actually really.

John (45:05)

Nope, that's what they said.

Dr. Ross Barron (45:06)

Said.

Hank (45:07)

That's what they said.

Dr. Ross Barron (45:07)

Yeah, that's what they said. That's what they meant. They end up teaching Samaritans and they end up baptizing. In fact, remember, they baptized. This is Acts, chapter 8. This whole area in Samaria. And they didn't know what the Holy Ghost was. So Peter, James and John have to come up and confer the Holy Ghost. So it's a beautiful, like, bookend there. I love that. So great.

John (45:26)

I like that.

Hank (45:27)

Let it say what it says.

John (45:30)

Yesterday I was teaching the Book of Mark, and as an intro, I used what somebody quoted on our podcast, Tank. Julie M. Smith had this great introduction from BYU New Testament commentary dot com. She has this beautiful introduction about discipleship and says, okay, let's look at the Book of Mark. The disciples didn't understand the parables. They fought with each other. They asked who was the greatest in the kingdom of God. They actually turned Jesus in. I guess one of them did. And she goes through this list of. Of how they are struggling to figure out how to be disciples. I love what you said, Ross. We don't need to sanitize that. So are we. We're struggling with what it means to be disciples, too.

Dr. Ross Barron (46:14)

Exactly. And I. The new married couple, where they're working out stuff in their marriage or the new missionary or the new seminary teacher, and they're like, I'm not perfect. Well, you're working through it. Like, it's okay. This is awesome. Give yourself some grace. The Lord's given us grace. That's not an excuse to be mediocre. But it's. It's an opportunity for us to realize that prophets, apostles, in fact, you brought up John. Which one is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? What do you think they really want to know? They want to know which one of them. Jesus. It's you, Peter. And Peter's like, I told you guys. I told you it was me. He called me the rock. And Jesus is like, I called you the rock because you sank when you walked on water. You're misinterpreting why I called you rock. Okay, that's not why I called you rock.

John (47:01)

You never heard that?

Dr. Ross Barron (47:03)

I just think it's cute that, like.

Hank (47:04)

Yeah.

Dr. Ross Barron (47:05)

It shows it unvarnished.

Hank (47:07)

Yeah. Ross, is this more than almost any other book of scripture?

Dr. Ross Barron (47:11)

Yes, by far. The Old Testament in terms of sanitizing, does not sanitize. It shows us in all the glory of our weakness, our human frailty, and our fallenness.

John (47:24)

Going back to the Book of Mormon in an Old Testament setting, here's this perfect family that listens to the Jerusalem Tabernacle Choir as they travel across the Arabian Peninsula. No, it's actually. Let's kill dad. No, let's kill Nephi. Hey, let's kill dad. And Nephi. You can imagine. Hey, Lehi, what are you writing there? Well, Sarai, I'm writing down all of our family problems.

Dr. Ross Barron (47:47)

Really?

John (47:47)

What are you going to do with that? Send it to every nation. Kindred tongue and people.

Dr. Ross Barron (47:52)

Oh, yeah, that's great. There's a couple of main themes we can keep in mind. Old Testament has some things. These aren't exhaustive, but I'm going to give three main ones. God will fight our battles, number two, covenants, and number three, sacrifice. Again, there are other themes, clearly all tying to Jesus Christ. But, man, one of them is, and we miss this a little bit, that when we're in the covenant, God will fight our battles. He's going to take us through and make it work for us, whatever that battle might be. There is this thing about sacrifice that is critical to the Old Testament. By the way, our Protestant friends, who we love and we will call them Christians. But the idea of a covenant requires mutual. Voluntarily. We enter into a covenant, we bind ourselves to the Savior, we make covenants and ordinances and stuff has to be done. That Old Testament idea transfers into the New Testament and to the Book of Mormon and of course, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. That's my tenth one, is you gotta understand some overall meta themes that are going on while you're getting into the details and in the weeds. God will fight our battles. God is in covenant relationship with us. There is a law of sacrifice pointing to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

John (49:21)

It's a good thing we're in a covenant relationship with him, because I think he would have walked away a long time ago if he weren't in a covenant relationship with us. You guys can't do anything right. I love the idea of thinking of a covenant as a relationship, not just a contract. Because if we think of a contract, we think a piece of paper, I sign it, I put it on the shelf. When it's a relationship, I feel a loyalty to Christ. It makes me think differently about my covenants when it's a relationship. And I like that. I hear more of us talking about covenants that way instead of contract.

Dr. Ross Barron (49:55)

Super helpful, by the way. Super helpful.

Hank (49:58)

I love what you said because if you read Genesis, God says, this, you're my family. This family is going to bless all the families by the end. You're thinking, he better get a new family like this. You chose the worst family.

John (50:13)

Yeah, Ross.

Hank (50:15)

One of my friends, her name is Hillary Wright, she was listening four years ago to our show and she said, hank, I got so tired of Hess said. Hess said this has said that. That hesed is a theme that comes up over and over and over. It's just not translated like that. Can you speak to that kind of theme?

Dr. Ross Barron (50:35)

Yes, I can. That's the idea of the covenant relationship. And in fact, in my personal prayers, I don't want to sound trite, but I actually say I'm grateful for thy hesed towards me, thy everlasting kindness, thy grace, thy generosity, thy tender mercies. There's a latitude in that translation. But I love what you said, John. Loyalty. He's not giving up on us if we don't give up on him. When I have a young man or young woman come to me and they're struggling with some particular issue and I'm serving As the bishop right now, they'll say, should I partake of the sacrament Sunday? Often I'll say, are you willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ if you're planning on sinning on Tuesday, that's a mockery. But if you're willing to, than God's willing. And they'll say, well, what if I make a mistake? That's not what the covenant's about. That loyalty transcends you making a mistake. But if you're willing, then we're going to the mat for you. I said, I as a bishop will go to the mat for you. The Lord will go to the mat for you. If it's a mockery, if you're planning premeditated sin. That's not what we're talking about. That hesed relationship, that loyalty. No, we don't kick you out of the covenant. Not happening. We're going to work with you and we're going to do, do everything. Literally everything. Jacob, chapter five. What more could I have done for my vineyard? What more could I have done for you? And the answer always is there's nothing more I could have done. I've done everything that is hesed. We work things out. There's loyalty and you work things out and you repent and you keep coming back. I always know the difference between the Holy Ghost and Satan. And one of the ways I know the difference is if the voice in my head is, give up, up, stop trying, throw in the towel, that's Satan. I have been rebuked by the Holy Ghost. By the way I go on record, the Holy Ghost has rebuked me. But in the rebuke, always whispers hope. Always. Satan never whispers hope. Give it up. You're not good enough. You might as well do that now that you've done this. That's Satan. This idea said Hank, that you brought up with your friend, it is central. Central and so critical and by the way, hopeful. One of the questions in the endorsement interview for Church education, it's an open ended question which I really love. It is, what does the atonement of Jesus Christ and of his role as your savior and redeemer mean to you? Then as a priesthood leader, you just shut up. To hear the responses of the students is, is miraculous. A lot of them will center around the opportunity that the atonement of Jesus Christ gives me. To change, to be better, to become something different and to have hope.

John (53:23)

That idea, God will fight our battles. I feel with my limited understanding of Isaiah, it's like, don't make alliances with other nations. Make the alliance with me. I will fight your battle. For a teenager, I'm thinking, brother Brad Wilcox, you got this because he's got you. Thankfully, that loyalty goes both ways. He's going to be loyal to us and help us through things. That's kind of like hesed.

Dr. Ross Barron (53:53)

There you go. Well, and I think it's interesting what you said, John. When the Assyrians are surrounding Jerusalem and they're like, what do we do? What do we do? Nothing. Isaiah says, be quiet. Don't do anything. God's going to fight your battle. Wait a minute. We shouldn't do anything. Be in alliance with him, with God. Trust God. He's going to take care of it. Really? Nothing? Are you serious there? Because they're right there, and there's a lot of them. Their campfires are burning. Yeah. Don't do anything. I'm going to take care of this power.

Hank (54:26)

I'll be all right. It'll be okay.

Dr. Ross Barron (54:28)

Now that we've done the top 10 on Thoughts to keep in mind, I thought it might be fun to. To do a little modeling. Let's go look at a couple of texts and have some fun. Let's go to Genesis, chapter 22. Genesis 22. If you know your Genesis, which apparently Hank's upset about, you know your Genesis.

Hank (54:50)

I know my Genesis.

Dr. Ross Barron (54:52)

When God. This is the Isaac, Abraham situation. So we all there. Genesis chapter 22, verse 1. And it came to pass after these things. Now, that phrase and it came to pass after these things in Hebrew, it's vayhiy achar habrim chaeleh. That specific phrase shows up eight times. Eight times. You might have thought, wait, no, it shows up more. And it came to pass. Shows up 328 times. And it came to pass after these things, shows up eight times. And check it out. In the context of Abraham, Joseph, Joshua, and Elijah. How about them? Prophets. That's where the phrase and it came to pass after these things shows up. It begs the question, what things? The narrator who's ever writing Genesis 22, presumably either modus Moses is. Or Moses is redacting or editing some other manuscript. Whoever does this is saying it came to pass after these things. And then we're going to introduce the text. The question is, what thing? The life of Abraham. Look, people, we met Abraham in Genesis 11. This man has been through everything. He's been through every trial, every test, and passed with flying colors. Here it is. And it came to pass after these things. What are we going to do now? What are we going to do now, isn't he done? So then it says this, that God did tempt Abraham. This is where your footnote comes into play. Look down at the bottom for tempt. The Hebrew says test or prove. Tempt is the wrong translation. The verb is NASA. That means test, prove, try. It came to pass after these things. And it came to pass after these things that God did. Try, test, prove. Abraham, hasn't he been tested, tried, and proved enough. We don't have it in English, but in Hebrew, Ancient Hebrew, Biblic Hebrew, the verb comes first, then the subject. In English, we said the subject comes first, then a verb. But in biblical Hebrew, the verb comes first unless there's emphasis. And in this case, that God did tempt Abraham, the subject came first. Elohim comes first, which is. And God did try, test, prove Abraham. I'm going to even say something different. This is me playing rabbi a little bit here, okay? Okay. The word NASA, which is tri, test, prove, is in the pl form of Hebrew, which is the intensive form. And it pretty much only shows up in the intensive form. But I was thinking about this because Abraham, who we read in Genesis chapter 11, has literally shown himself loyal and in the covenant always. So what's going on here? Perhaps another word for try, test, prove would be train. He's going to train him. Okay, now think, think, think. We know what's going to happen in Genesis 22. He's going to be asked to offer his son. Then it begs the question, if you're training. Training for what? Training to become like God. God's going to have to do this. And it came to pass after these things. What things? This amazing life you've led, Abraham. Do we have to try you more? I don't think so. So I don't think it's try, test, prove. I think it's training ground. Now. We're talking elite Navy Seal training. We're talking. You are the elite now, Jacob, chapter 4, verse 5. In the book of Mormon. This is in the similitude of the sacrifice of the only begotten of the Father. When it came to pass after these things, God, subject did train Abraham. The narrator knows we don't know yet. And you're like, what's gonna happen now? And said unto him, abraham, behold, here I am. And I can't help myself. I gotta go to verse two. Okay, now the English take. Now thy son, thine only son, Isaac, whom thou lovest. The Hebrew leaves Isaac to the end. The Hebrew leaves Isaac to the end. I can't help myself, can I Do it in Hebrew, John. Okay, Please. It's Kachna et binha et Yehidacha, asher ahavta. Okay? In other words, Isaac. You heard Yitzhak. Isaac is at the end. The. The Hebrew is, take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, dot, dot, dot. Isaac, because he's got two sons. He's got two sons. So it begs the question, wait a minute, your only son. Well, your only Yehidacha, why is it your only son when you have another son, get thee into the land of Moriah in Jerusalem, offer him there for a what, by the way, it's caused him to be offered up for a burnt offering. An olah offering, the consuming offering. This is pre Mosaic. This is. You got to do like in Leviticus chapter 1. I don't know if you're aware, but the way you would do an offering is you're going to slit the throat, bleed the person out, basically cut them up in different parts so that you have the head, you have the, the torso, you have the legs, and then you have the innards all laid in order on the altar. And then you 100% burn it so that it completely is consum doomed and goes up to God. That is the Allah offering or the burnt offering. That's what's going on right now. Now, one thing I want to say in the English text, take now they sign the only son from the left. It says now na in Hebrew can be translated as please. And it doesn't get in here. And I don't know why, but it's the only place I know where God says please when he gives a command. It's the only place I know where the Lord says please because remember. And it came to pass after these things. Abraham has been tried, he has been tested, he has been proven. But now we're going into training, we're going into a higher level. Now he's going to say in verse two, kachna ed Bincha, take please thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest Isaac. And you're going to do this why? Because Jacob 4, 5, it's going to be in similitude of my only begotten son, son. There's a case where we slow down, look at the task, ask some questions. And it came to pass after these things. Seems like a formulaic thing, like no big deal, but actually I think there's something to it.

Hank (61:28)

It's wonderful.

John (61:29)

I'm looking at footnote 2B on the word thine only son, and John 3:16, God. So loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. So the similitude your talking about even using the word only there, that bird.

Hank (61:49)

Offering, that was pretty graphic what you talked about there. But let it say what it says. That's what you told us.

Dr. Ross Barron (61:56)

Yeah, exactly. Don't sanitize the text, by the way. That's what Abraham says. Like look at verse three. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, by the way. He didn't have to use that. The narrator could have said he got up. But he doesn't get up up. He gets up early in the morning. Abraham is on a different level. He hears the command, he vayashkems in the boker. He gets up. That was some gringo Hebrew right there. He gets up early in the morning to be obedient to the command of God. So powerful. Then it doesn't seem like they're saying anything. Like there's no text until verse four. He lifts up his eyes on the third day. This is a pretty sober trip trip. They don't have Hank along and John having fun. We're just trudging towards Mariah. That's an interesting thing. Anyway, that is one way of slowing down, looking at a text, digging deep, finding connections and asking questions of the text. Again, pretty formulaic. And it came to pass after these things, we blow by that. But I always stop my class and go, what things? What are we talking about? Abraham. We met him in Genesis 11. This is Genesis 22, people. You realize who we're talking about.

Hank (63:17)

Wow.

Dr. Ross Barron (63:17)

Incredible. I love it.

Hank (63:21)

Do you have another couple of examples for us that we're going to practice?

Dr. Ross Barron (63:24)

I do. Let's go to second Samuel, chapter 11. The greatest king of Israel, the first king was Saul. If you know your Old Testament, then you had David. Then you have Solomon. Before Saul. It was a reign of Judges. And one of the greatest judges was Samuel, who's a prophet in 1st Samuel, chapter 8. He doesn't want the people to have a king. You guys know the story. And they clamor for a king. He says, okay, we're going to give you a king, but man, you guys are. It's going to be a problem.

John (63:54)

He lets them act just like you're saying, right, exactly.

Dr. Ross Barron (63:58)

The way history was is not the way history had to be.

Hank (64:00)

Me.

Dr. Ross Barron (64:01)

One of the great lines of President Henry B. Eyring in an interview was when he was asked about keeping the commandments. And he said, I want to do what God prefers, not what he permits. That is a fabulous, wonderful way to think about because when you're with young people, they'll ask you about lines, and then I always bring up the present ironing question quote, let's do what God prefers, not what he permits. It's a helpful way. It's a helpful frame. And your point, John, like 1st Samuel 8, he preferred they not have a king, but he permitted their use of agency and gave them a king. But he warned them. So here we are in 2nd Samuel 11.

Hank (64:44)

Can you see the Lord going, okay, okay. It's going to take us about 2,500 years to recover from this decision, but let's go for it, Right?

Dr. Ross Barron (64:54)

Your call, though. Your call.

John (64:56)

Yeah.

Dr. Ross Barron (64:57)

2Nd Samuel 11 for latter day Saints, a critical story. Some of our other friends and different religions don't love 2nd Samuel 11. 12. It's a super important story. So. And it came to pass after the year was expired. Now, again, we got to be careful. We read that in an English context and think, oh, it's January 1st, right? It's the new year. Year. No, for them, the new year is in the spring. Technically, that would have been Aviv is spring. This would have been. And it came to pass after the year was expired. We're talking spring at the time when kings go forth to battle because they didn't fight traditionally during winter. That David sent Joab and his servants with him and all Israel, and they destroyed the children of Ammon. So that's over in Jordan. And besieged Rabbah over in Jordan. Jordan. Then this line from the narrator, Whoever's narrating in 2nd Samuel, but David tarried still at Jerusalem, if you're teaching this or you're studying this, you better slow down right here. And you got to ask some questions. And the question has to be, why is David staying at Jerusalem? If they're fighting in Amman and you textualize it, this is a warrior king. He's not afraid. This is David is not. Oh, my word. I'm going to stay at Jerusalem. I'm afraid this is a warrior king. Him staying at Jerusalem violates my mantra, which is, be where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be there. If you be where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be there, it will eliminate most problems in your life. And he's not where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there. He is tearing in Jerusalem, which is weird. He's not with his guys. The years passed. And it's not like he needs a rest from war. He's had all winter. Winter and it came to pass in an even tide that David arose from off his bed. You gotta stop there. What's strange about that?

John (66:49)

He's been sleeping before the evening comes.

Dr. Ross Barron (66:53)

Boom. He's just lazing around, playing video games and hanging out in his bed. He's getting up at evening. Do you get this picture? Are we getting a picture? Like, that's weird. What are you doing? What's going on? On. And it came to pass in an even tide that David arose from off his bed. Yikes. He's not a teenage boy, but he's acting like one. And he walked upon the roof of the king's house. Now the word walk, this would be a little harder, but I'm going to throw it out. The word walk there. The word walk in Hebrew is halach, but this is a verb form which is intensive reflexive. And this is not my favorite translation. Think about it, you guys. What would be a way to translate walk in intensive reflexive? He's just been sleeping all day. He's on the roof and he's vayit halaking on the roof. What's another word you might put in there?

John (67:52)

Pacing.

Dr. Ross Barron (67:53)

Pacing. That's the word I translate. He's like a caged lion, in my view, and I don't totally know why he's a caged lion. I don't know if he's seen something before or what's going on, or he's a cage caged lion because he knows he shouldn't be there. But my point is, we're reading the text carefully and we're asking questions of the text. He's tearing in Jerusalem. He's getting up late, and he's vayit halaking on the gog, which is the roof. He's pacing back and forth. There's a battle going on from the roof. He saw a woman washing herself, and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. You have both been to Jerusalem. You've been to the City of David. The king's house was higher up, and the city slopes down to the Pool of Siloam. There's a big slope, and you have the Gihon spring. So it's sloping down. It's just south of the Temple Mount. He's up on something at king's House, his roof. And he's able to look down and see a woman bathing. Now, bathing practices in ancient times, especially pre Roman, pretty primitive. You're going to bathe in a spring or a river or a well. And if you're going to bathe at home, then it's going to usually be in some kind of basin. And you're going to be basically doing a sponge bath or you're going to be using oil on your hair, like olive oil. And they had this one thing where they would scrape their skin, but it wouldn't be that often. It could be, in the case of this woman, a purification ritual from her menstrual cycle. So there might be that going on. Does that make sense? But the fact that he's now looking at this woman who's bathing, he has a choice. He has free will. We're back to agency. He can choose right there to check himself. As Alma would say, cross yourself in these things. Don't go after the lust of your eyes. Alma, chapter 39. And David sent and inquired after the woman. I'm in verse three and one said, now look at one. One is italicized. Italicize means what I think it means.

Hank (69:57)

This is where the KJV authors put a word in to make it flow, but it's not really there.

Dr. Ross Barron (70:03)

It's not in the text. And David sent, inquired after the woman and said, if I read it that way, who's saying this?

John (70:11)

David is to himself, maybe.

Dr. Ross Barron (70:13)

Maybe to himself or whoever he's talking to is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite. In other words, it's framed as a question, but it's really rhetorical if in fact I'm reading it correctly. Does that make sense if I take out the one and I say and said, he already knows who it is. Okay, now wait, wait, wait, wait. By the way, we should. Bathsheba. The Hebrew word Bathsheba means daughter of the covenant, the wife of Uriah. Uriah. Uriya is the light of Jehovah. Don't kill the light of Jehovah. Don't do that. Uriah who? The Hittite. So it must be a convert or something like that. Here's the interesting thing. Bathsheba's dad, Eliam and Uriah are both in second Samuel 23. There's a list of David's 30 mighty men. These are like his elite core soldiers, special forces guys. They were his comrades and they were his. His quote unquote, trench buddies before he actually became king. You with me? So Elam and uriah are his 30 mighty men. But wait, it gets more. Eliam's dad is Ahithopil, who was David's personal counselor. Ahithopil, his son is Eliam. His daughter is Bathsheba. He took his close friend's wife, daughter, granddaughter. I know you thought it couldn't have got worse. The point, though, is, I think part of the point of the story is the betrayal. It's a complete betrayal of relationships, a complete betrayal of covenant. It's a complete betrayal of light. That just adds to the. The pathos of this story. Once you understand and dig a little deeper and figure out who these people are, it's not just some thing. I personally believe he knew who Bathsheba was. Clearly he does, because Ahithophil is his, like, trusted counselor. Uriah and Eliam were his mighty comrades in war. Now he's got this particular situation. I'm trying to model a bit of a close reading of the text, looking at context, looking at relationships, and trying to understand what can we learn here? What can we learn here? There's a lot more you can say about that, but I think that's good for now.

Hank (72:42)

Now, on that text, go slow and let it say what it says.

Dr. Ross Barron (72:48)

Let it say what it says and ask questions. You could say, who's a hitil? Now, you have sources where you could go to, for example, the LDS Citation Index, go to scriptures, and you could have searched ail. Then you would have figured out, whoa, that's Elam's dad and Bathsheba's his granddaughter. Wait, he's David's trusted counselor? Yikes.

Hank (73:09)

And it changes the story. It's more impact. It's more.

Dr. Ross Barron (73:12)

It does more impact. It's more betrayal.

John (73:15)

I remember as a teenager when I put it together that the same David who slew Goliath was this David. And it was kind of a gut punch. I was like, but wait a minute.

Dr. Ross Barron (73:29)

It's a hard day. It's a hard day.

John (73:32)

I love what you said, too, about. I want you to say more about that. This. It's sloping. You could probably see everybody's roof from up there.

Hank (73:41)

Yep.

Dr. Ross Barron (73:42)

Anybody who's been to the City of David, and if you go to where the king's house was, it would have afforded you a total opportunity to see everyone below. Had they gone outside and been on the roof or been bathing, like, it would have been an easy look, you guys know. So it goes from high up here, slopes all the way down Again, the Pool of Siloam is south. The Gihon Spring is south, and then east, all of that water would have been there. The fact, again, that she's bathing at home, either it's a purification ritual or she is taking a bath, but it would have been more like a sponge bath. There was no, like Running water again adds to the story. What's he doing on the roof? Why is he pacing? Why does he stay at Jerusalem? What's going on in his mind? Mind.

Hank (74:28)

So many opportunities to stop, right?

Dr. Ross Barron (74:31)

To stop. Be where you're supposed to be when you're. Yeah, you'll get to it. Yeah, you'll get to it.

John (74:36)

Oh, and the thing that's interesting is they're progressive. A little step and another little step and another little step instead of, I need to go in the house and sing a hymn. You know.

Dr. Ross Barron (74:50)

Sing more than one. I thought it might be fun. Go to Psalms. I wanted to pick a couple of narratives. Now we're going to go to one that's not a narrative. This is going to be a verse that is particularly powerful. And it's Psalms 82. Okay, Psalms 82.

John (75:10)

We know what 82 is in 82.

Dr. Ross Barron (75:13)

6. The translators, they nailed it. Like the King James guys. They didn't back off on this. 82, 6 says, I have said, ye are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High. Ye are gods. That is literally Elohim. That's what it says. It says, you're Elohim. Then it says, all of you are B. Children of Elyon. Elyon, El. You hear the word God there. Elyon is the Most High God. Elyon. So El is singular for God. Elohim is the masculine plural, the eam on the end. So cherubim is more than one. Cherub. The im is the masculine plural, Urim.

John (75:57)

And thumim.

Dr. Ross Barron (76:00)

Is lights and perfections. Anytime you hear that im, that is the masculine plural. The feminine plural is ot. Mikvot is like baptismal fonts. Mikva is the singular. Mikvot are plural. You with me. In this case, he's saying, you are Elohim. Elohim, you're all Elohim. Which means, again, this is Latter Day Saint theology is that we are not a different species than God. We are literal children of God, and woven within us is the capacity to become like Him. He's saying, scripturally, you guys are Elohim. By the way, we could bring in a thousand rabbis. That's what the text says. Now. Some will say, some will say, oh, no, no. He means judges here, your judges. The context is about judgment and your judges. Let me say one other thing about Elohim. Elohim is plural. All through Genesis 1, 2, and 3, it's Elohim, plural, plural, plural. But we translate it singular. The theology on that, from a Protestant Christian view and even from A rabbinic view, to a certain extent, is that Elohim. Now, listen to what I'm gonna say here. I'm actually using their language is what's called a quote, plurality of majesty, unquote, meaning that God is too much to be encapsulated in a singular. Therefore, when we refer to God and his character and who he is, we have to use the plural. Do you follow that line of logic? The problem is that's just totally made up.

Hank (77:38)

But it is like, yeah, it is.

Dr. Ross Barron (77:40)

Just 100 made up. That's not in the text. And God refers to himself in the singular, and Ls all over the place. It's just made up. It's just because it doesn't fit the. The theology. We're going to say plurality of majesty.

Hank (77:52)

Just quick side note, I think Joseph Smith had an argument with his Jewish Hebrew tutor over that.

Dr. Ross Barron (77:58)

Yeah, he did. Where he's like, well, that's the masculine plural. He's like, yeah, but it doesn't really mean that. Joseph's like, no, that's precisely what it means.

Hank (78:07)

Yeah, I think it was Truman Madsen who told that story. Yeah, he's like, wait, you said this is what it says. Well, that's not what it really says. What do you mean? That's not what you taught me. That's what it says.

Dr. Ross Barron (78:19)

I know what a masculine plural is when I see one.

John (78:23)

You go back to Genesis 1:26. Let us us. That sounds plural, like man in our. That sounds plural image. And after hour. That sounds plural likeness.

Dr. Ross Barron (78:35)

And the reason they did that, John in 26, is because you can't conjugate yourself out of a singular.

Hank (78:39)

There.

Dr. Ross Barron (78:40)

There's no way to make the text make any sense without the plural. You got to make all the verbs agree. So they were just like, yeah, we can't even do it. And we can't do it. Like, they were wearing white wigs in very cold weather in England going, okay, we just going to make it plural. I mean, that's all we're going to do. Like, I don't have a way to get around.

John (78:58)

All in favor?

Dr. Ross Barron (78:59)

Okay, all in favor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's going to care.

John (79:02)

Could you please say that in Hebrew? I'd love to hear that.

Dr. Ross Barron (79:05)

Okay, so here's the Hebrew, which is so powerful. And it says this. I get excited. I'm glad you asked me this. It says, ani amarti. Now, ani amarti. Again, subject first. It's. I have said. Now they try. I have said. It should really be something like. Like, Even I said, because when you put the subject first, it's like trying to say I'm empowering. So ani amar, I. I said, and watch this. Elohim atem, Gods you are. Sounds like Yoda a little bit here.

John (79:39)

It does, yeah.

Dr. Ross Barron (79:40)

Even I have said gods, you are Elohim atem. Atem is the second masculine plural. You are gods. Gods. And children of the Most High, all of you. So I blocked it out. Like, literally. That's what the Hebrew says. That's not controversial. I would love to have like 20 rabbis sit down with me. Like, they're going to be like, yep, that's the right translation. Now, they might interpret it differently, obviously, like, theologize it differently, but that's what the text says. Now, people who say, oh, the context. You're not reading it in context. This is about Judges. Look, in verse one, he's judging them. The word Jud comes up in verse two. And then verse three, we're talking about justice and defending the poor and the needy. Then we're going to all die like men. Verse 7. Then verse 8, Judge comes up again. A lot of people, they're. No, no, no, no. Elohim, that's Judges. Okay, go to John, chapter 10. This is where I love. Where Jesus is like, yeah, this is what I meant by those verses, by the way. John, chapter 8, John, chapter 9, John chapter 10. Some of the most intense back and forth with Pharisees. By never brings up Sadducee. That word does not occur in the book of John. Yeah, really? Pharisee does, but not Sadducee, because I think when he says Pharisee, he wants to go and spit. John is not bashful about who the good guys are and who the bad guys are, in his view.

John (81:07)

Yeah.

Dr. Ross Barron (81:08)

Now we have some colleagues who think we were maybe, like, overreaching on the Pharisees. But if John the Beloved were here, he'd be spitting. John, chapter 10. Let's go to first 25, 5. Jesus answered them, I told you and you believe not. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because you are not of my sheep. As I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice. I know them, they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life. And they shall never perish. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. And then here it goes. It's getting more intense. My father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hands. Here it comes. Comes. I and my father are one. Dun, dun, dun. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered, many good works have I showed you from my father. For which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered, saying, for a good work we stone thee not. But for blasphemy, because thou makest, thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them. Psalms 82. 6. Is it not written in your law? I said ye are gods. He's not saying they're judges. He is literally responding to their accusation that he's making himself God by quoting the Psalms, saying, we're all Elohim. We all have that within us. Verse 35. If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken, say ye of him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world. Thou blasphemous. Because I said I'm the son of God. Boom. Amazing.

John (82:49)

Wow.

Dr. Ross Barron (82:50)

There's an Old Testament, New Testament connection. Part of scripture study is to make connections and make sure you understand. So somebody says, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. It means judges. And you'd be like, oh, and we get coward into, oh, yeah, that's true. No, Jesus said, it means you're gods. Have a super good rest of your day.

John (83:10)

Yeah, right. Maybe those scholars are just smarter than Jesus.

Dr. Ross Barron (83:14)

Maybe.

John (83:15)

I love that Jesus used that ve to say, no, clearly he's not talking about judges. I love that.

Dr. Ross Barron (83:24)

Nope. Otherwise it makes zero sense.

Hank (83:27)

And Ross, part of that skill you taught us was emphasize the things that Jesus emphasizes. So Psalms 82, I should spend time there.

Dr. Ross Barron (83:35)

By the way, the quote from Psalms 82 in John 10, precise. Now that's Greek in John 10, but it is the precise, you know, translation from the Greek to the Hebrew.

Hank (83:46)

That's what he's referring to.

Dr. Ross Barron (83:47)

Yeah. That is power.

Hank (83:49)

Ross, one thing that John and I and our, our entire team think about are our listeners who are in pain, who are suffering. We have listeners who are going through the suffering of the death of a child or a spouse, a loved one, a divorce. We have listeners in prison. We have listeners who are with mental illness. One of the reasons I invited you is you feel deeply for people as I've gotten to know you over the years. I don't know exactly where I want you to go with this question other than can the Old Testament help?

Dr. Ross Barron (84:29)

I love the question. Yeah. Let me say this to those suffering and all the things you said. I mean, that's no trivial matter. The deep suffering. I think, you know, I had stage four cancer when I was 44 years old.

John (84:43)

Old.

Dr. Ross Barron (84:43)

And stage four is bad because stage five is the spirit world. That was a joke, by the way.

John (84:49)

That's good.

Dr. Ross Barron (84:50)

I had chemotherapy, I had surgeries, I had radiation. We had six kids at home, one son on a mission. It was pretty brutal. And I'm not trying to say that my cancer is the thing and that other people like. I totally get it. But let me just say this. I like to let you scripture study wash over me. What I mean by that is, as I study texts and when I had cancer, they had to give me steroids to shrink the tumors. I couldn't sleep. So I'd be up at 3, 2 in the morning. Literally cannot sleep. And I would read the Psalms. Old Testament. We've done kind of a deep dive, but sometimes I would just read the Psalms to let the spirit wash over me and comfort me. And I can testify that it did. It's so interesting you bring that up because I wasn't going to bring that up. But that is fascinating because literally the word of God in the Old Testament spoke to my soul, gave me comfort and spoke peace. It didn't say everything was going to be all right. It didn't say I was going to live. But it washed over me and gave me strength and hope. Hope to persevere another day testified of Jesus Christ. Sometimes just reading the word of God in humility and in a spirit of seeking that grace from God was so powerful that to me was powerful, amazing and unforgettable. I'll be forever grateful to the Lord for his kindness and mercy and patience with me.

Hank (86:28)

Ross, I really appreciate that there's an invitation this year to let these words wash over you, heal your wounds.

Dr. Ross Barron (86:39)

That's exactly right. I love that we're ending with this because it really wasn't a deep dive. At 3 in the morning, I was up. Everybody in the house is asleep. I'm facing whatever I'm facing. I've opened the Psalms and I'm reading through them, and I'm really not doing a deep dive, but it's healing me, at least spiritually. I can honestly say that in some respects, while I was having cancer, my spirit burned as bright as it had ever burned in my life in terms of my witness of Jesus Christ, my testimony of the reality of what he did and of the reality of the resurrection, the reality of the plan of salvation of the prophet Joseph Smith and of modern prophets. And it was power. It allowed me to endure well, because through the word of God, it healed my spirit and soul.

John (87:33)

It's not just the exact words or phrases or content that you read. It was putting yourself in that place of pondering, of looking at the word of God and just putting yourself there and letting that wash over you. Is here healing no matter what you're reading.

Dr. Ross Barron (87:51)

Really?

Hank (87:51)

If I can say that, John, isn't that what we're after in our show at least? Yeah, that's right.

John (87:57)

I'm so glad you bore witness of that because hopefully anybody can go and read, not just listen to a podcast and think you're done with scripture study. Oh, no, no, no, no. Go into the words themselves and just read the words themselves.

Hank (88:13)

I love it. The great part about this, John, is we get to do this again and seven more times with Ross this year.

John (88:20)

Hank, I was this excited. I'm holding my hand up and I am so. This is going to be so good. I can't believe we get to get you back. This is going to be wonderful. Those 10 things, I've got them down. I bet we'll be referring to these often, Hank, as we keep going.

Hank (88:39)

Yep. When do we have Ross back?

John (88:41)

We have Ross back again for another thoughts to keep in mind. Mind. Next, we'll be talking about the covenant, the Abrahamic covenant. And I just don't know how it's possible to understand even the Book of Mormon without understanding the Abrahamic Covenant. What is that and how are we part of it? I can't wait to hear what Ross is going to teach us about that next time.

Dr. Ross Barron (89:03)

I'm pretty excited. I got a lot, a lot to say about it. It's great.

Hank (89:07)

And that's going to be mid February. So as we're looking forward to Valentine's Day, we're also looking forward to the covenant with Ross Baron. Dr. Ross Baron.

Dr. Ross Barron (89:15)

Yeah. A lot of fun.

John (89:16)

That's right.

Dr. Ross Barron (89:17)

What's more romantic than that?

John (89:20)

Well, it continues with us. That's what's so interesting. We're chosen. I like to tell my class, it's kind of like being chosen to mow the lawn. You've chosen to do a work, and that is to bless all the families of the earth. What could be better than that?

Dr. Ross Barron (89:36)

No, that's exactly, exactly right.

John (89:37)

We'd like to thank Dr. Ross Barron, and we're so excited we're going to have him back. Is it seven more times, Hank?

Hank (89:43)

Seven more times, baby.

John (89:45)

As we go through these. I'm excited. It's going to be wonderful. As we continue our study of the old Testament. Please come and see us again and enjoy this on Follow Him.

Hank (89:58)

As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book book Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co. that's followhim.co to download your free copy today and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoke, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorenson.

Dr. Ross Barron (90:36)

Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Hank (90:46)

Turn to Him.

Dr. Ross Barron (90:47)

Follow Him.