Food Safety Matters – Ep. 182

Guest: Paul Shapiro
Theme: Making the Case for Cell-Based Meats and Plant-Based Proteins
Date: November 26, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode of Food Safety Matters dives into the intersections of food technology, sustainability, and policy as they relate to the rapidly developing world of alternative proteins. Guest Paul Shapiro, CEO of the Better Meat Company and author of "Clean Meat," joins the show to discuss the promise, challenges, and future of cell-based, plant-based, and mycelium-based (fungi) meat alternatives. The conversation covers technological, regulatory, and consumer acceptance angles, highlighting food safety as a powerful motivator for adopting new protein sources.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Context and Need for Alternative Proteins

• Global Demand and Sustainability:
  • Shapiro highlights the unsustainable resource consumption related to traditional meat, underscoring that "meat demand is going up, not down...all the places it's going to matter the most, meat demand is going up, not down." (25:08)
  • He draws parallels to energy: "We want to get energy without fossil fuels...people want meat, so we need to make the meat experience without animals." (26:19)
• Three Main Approaches:
  • Plant-Based: Products from familiar crops like soy, pea, and wheat attempt to mimic meat but are often costly and imperfect in replication of flavor and texture.
  • Cell-Based/Cultivated Meat: Animal cells grown in bioreactors, offering the real thing without animal slaughter, but these are costly and not yet broadly scalable.
  • Fungi-Based (Mycoprotein): Using microbial fungi/mycelium to create highly protein-packed, meat-textured foods, which is what the Better Meat Company specializes in.

2. Scalability and Market Penetration (29:07)

• Plant-Based: Well-established—appears in fast food menus and big box stores across the US.
• Cell-Based: Not yet commercially available in the US, extremely limited in Singapore, and likely years from broad adoption.
• Mycoprotein/Fungi: Already industrially feasible, with brands like Quorn operating large fermentation facilities. However, market diversity is low—most use a single species, leaving room for innovation.

3. Food Safety and Regulatory Landscape

• Stringent Regulatory Review:
  • "The FDA has a very rigorous safety protocol...takes years and hundreds of thousands of dollars of safety testing..." (33:54)
  • As a food tech CEO, Shapiro expresses personal confidence in the system having gone through it himself.
• Microbial Safety Upsides:
  • "We are warned to treat raw meat almost like toxic waste... The reason is because there's feces on the meat. ...When you're dealing with cultivated meat... you don't have to worry as much about intestinal pathogens because there are no intestines." (35:52)
  • Cultivated/fermented products grown in sterile bioreactors avoid common pathogens like E. coli and Salmonella prevalent in slaughtered animal meat.

4. Nutritional Benefits of Plant-Based and Fungi-Based Meats (47:27)

• "First, they have zero cholesterol. ... Second, they usually have a lot of fiber. You know, meat has no fiber. Not one type of meat has 1 gram of fiber in it at all."
• Shapiro stresses Americans face widespread fiber deficiency, linked to severe health concerns, whereas protein deficiency is virtually nonexistent.

5. Political and Societal Pushback

• Legislative Efforts to Ban Cultivated Meat:
  • "Rather than trying to help Blockbuster adapt...they just banned streaming. ...That's really the equivalent of what Governor Ron DeSantis in Florida just did by banning the sale of cultivated meat for the express purpose of protecting Florida cattle producers." (38:01)
  • Shapiro sees this trend as political grandstanding—an artificial barrier to food innovation.
  • He remains optimistic: “There’s a really big world out there, and many states and countries are quite eager to have cultivated meat on the menu…” (39:35)

6. Coexistence of Conventional and Cultivated Proteins

• "Whereas in the past the word protein has typically been perceived as being synonymous with a hunk of flesh from a slaughtered animal’s body, in the future there’s going to be a far more diverse set of protein definitions..." (40:59)
• Paul offers a vision of hybrid markets—a scenario where both traditional and novel proteins hold space, creating a richer culinary landscape.

7. Consumer Acceptance and Education (44:47)

• Taste and Cost as Core Drivers:
  • “People generally buy food for two, two primary reasons. One, they like the way that it tastes, and two, they like that they can afford it. …If it tastes good and it’s cost effective, I think that’s going to win a huge part of the market.”
• Responding to Apprehension:
  • “First and foremost at the Better Meat Co., what I do is have people taste it and once they taste it and see how awesome it is...that already goes a very long way.” (44:55)
  • Food science and transparency (“non-GMO, whole food, single-ingredient, all-natural protein” made by fermentation) are used to build trust.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Paul Shapiro Introduction & Episode Purpose:
  23:58–24:32
• The Sustainability Crisis & Meat Alternatives:
  25:08–28:44
• Scalability of Different Alternative Proteins:
  29:07–32:06
• Role of Fungi in Meat Replacements:
  32:07–33:16
• Food Safety and Regulatory Approval:
  33:54–35:42
• Microbial vs. Traditional Meat Food Safety:
  35:52–37:28
• Legislative Backlash Against Cultivated Meat:
  38:01–40:51
• Vision for Future Protein Markets:
  40:59–42:49
• Consumer Education and Apprehension:
  44:47–47:03
• Nutritional Benefits of Plant/Fungi-Based Alternatives:
  47:27–49:00
• Closing and Further Resources:
  49:30–50:08

Notable Quotes

• On the Market Need for Alternatives:
  “It would be wonderful if people wanted to switch to bean and rice burritos and lentil soup and hummus wraps. Those are fantastic foods, I love them. But people seem to really want meat.”
  —Paul Shapiro (25:27)

• On Food Safety in Alternative Proteins:
  “We are warned to treat raw meat almost like toxic waste... The reason is because there's feces on the meat. ...When you're dealing with cultivated meat...there are no intestines in the first place.”
  —Paul Shapiro (35:52)

• On Political Opposition:
  “Rather than trying to help Blockbuster adapt...they just banned streaming. That's really the equivalent of what Governor Ron DeSantis in Florida just did by banning the sale of cultivated meat...”
  —Paul Shapiro (38:01)

• On Consumer Mindset:
  “People generally buy food for two, two primary reasons. One, they like the way that it tastes, and two, they like that they can afford it.”
  —Paul Shapiro (43:05)

• On Health Benefits:
  “No vegan products have cholesterol in them...We don’t have a protein deficiency problem in the United States...whereas nearly every single person in the United States is fiber deficient.”
  —Paul Shapiro (47:27)

• On the Promise of Food Innovation:
  “It seems almost like magic that you can go in less than one day from inoculation of a fermenter to harvesting...Of course it’s not magic, it’s just food science. But it’s something that’s really cool.”
  —Paul Shapiro (46:42)

Memorable Moments

• Shapiro’s analogy of clean meat’s opposition to a hypothetical 2000s governor banning streaming video to protect Blockbuster Video paints a vivid picture of legislative resistance to food innovation. (38:01)
• The "Fermenter to Fork" dining experience at the Better Meat Company's Sacramento headquarters illustrates the hands-on, transparent approach to demystifying fungi-based meat alternatives. (32:14)

Summary

Paul Shapiro’s interview provides a comprehensive, engaging look at why and how cell-based and plant-based meats are advancing, the barriers they face, and their unique advantages—particularly around food safety and sustainability. The podcast highlights the stringent FDA processes, the nutritional bonuses of alternative proteins, and the political frictions at play, while never losing sight of the consumer’s role in shaping the future protein landscape.

For more resources and further reading, listeners are encouraged to visit Paul Shapiro's website and the Better Meat Company, as well as the Food Safety Magazine website.