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Food Safety Matters
Ep. 203. Dr. David Dyjack: What Does the Future of the Food Safety Workforce Look Like?
01:14:56
David T. Dyjack, Dr.P.H., CIH has served as Executive Director and CEO of the National Environmental Health Association (NEHA) since May 2015. Dr. Dyjack's 30-year career includes expertise in environmental health, emergency preparedness and...
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- [00:00]
A
The presenting sponsor of Food Safety Matters is Michigan State University. Earn a Master of Science in Food Safety from Michigan State University. Flexible online courses allow students to balance their studies with professional life, no matter where they are in the world. Learn from a faculty of experts, build meaningful connections, and engage in enriching peer to peer learning. Imagine the pride and accomplishment of completing a master's degree while contributing to the safety and security of the global food supply. Visit foodsafety.msu.edu and then click on the Master's program link to learn more. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Food Safety Matters, the podcast for food safety professionals. I'm Stacy Acheson, publisher of Food Safety magazine, and I'm here along with Mike co host Adrienne Blum, our editorial director, and Bob Ferguson, president of Strategic Consulting. Well, I don't know about you all or y'.
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B
All.
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C
Y'.
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A
All. Yeah, I'm going for the y' all lately, but this year seems to be moving really, really fast, and there's just a lot going on everywhere. Do you like how I did that, Bob?
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B
I did.
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D
I like that was the.
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A
Before Bob saw it in the script, he wasn't sure how it was everywhere. And everywhere that I look at my little personal part of the world, I see some like, unfinished to do list item or to to want to do item or something. But it's a lot and I know I'm not alone. So all the more reason then. I just want to take a moment at the top of the show today to thank everyone for listening. Thank you for taking some time, first of all for yourself and then for choosing to spend that time with us. Time is tight and even in the podcast space, you have more choices than ever before. So thank you for choosing us and for trusting us to be a good use of your time. We appreciate you. And that's my sneaky way, actually, of taking a slow in breath and out breath with you. Okay, now we've arrived. Adrian, do you want to start us off by sharing a little bit about today's guest interview?
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C
Yeah. So today I'm speaking with Dr. David Dijak of the National Environmental Health association, or NEHA, about the challenges and opportunities that are faced by today's food safety workforce, as well as NEHA's projections for the future of this workforce. And I think Dr. Dijak shares some really interesting insights into how the food safety workforce may evolve. So don't miss out on this interview.
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A
All right, so we're just gonna get right to it. Adrienne, let's break into the news.
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C
Yeah. So first up in news today, you're probably aware of the government shutdown that began on October 1st.
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A
Wait a minute, wait a minute. There's a government shutdown happening?
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C
There is. And this shutdown, there's something about that.
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A
Somewhere, I don't know. I think I heard something.
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C
So the shutdown, which was forced by partisan disagreement on the government spending bill, primarily over healthcare insurance premiums, is expected to have significant implications for federal food safety work. So wide ranging furloughs have been implemented at fda, so some of which could become permanent terminations. At an Oct. 1 White House press briefing, Vice President J.D. vance said the administration will have to lay off some people if the shutdown continues. Now, according to a Department of Health and Human Services Fiscal Year 2026 contingency plan, 41% of the HHS workforce, totaling 32,460 employees, are set to be furloughed during the shutdown. So updates to the FDA's core outbreak investigation table were originally set to be suspended during the shutdown. But on October 3rd, FDA issued a statement saying that it will continue to regularly update the core investigation table. FDA also said it'll continue detecting and responding to public health emergencies, managing recalls, mitigating drug shortages, responding to foodborne illness outbreaks, and conducting surveillance of adverse events. FDA will also continue to issue public health advisories to protect consumers from foodborne illness.
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A
Well, I guess the first thing that is about the threat, I think that or you know, the statement that they might be made permanent, I guess is really kind of more of a threat. We don't know if that's going to happen or if it does happen, if it's legal. But you know, a lot of things are being challenged these days.
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D
So I have a, I have a friend who's French and he told me a saying a long time ago which I think probably sounds better than French, but I'm not going to try that.
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A
Oh, I want to hear it.
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D
The saying is essentially cry after you've been hurt. So I think there's a lot of threats. There's a lot of things going back and forth on this. But what I'm trying to focus on with the outbreak at the time of this being a little bit over a week is what actually has been going on or what's really going on. For one thing, we know from a food safety standpoint that the USDA FSIS inspectors are still working. My assumption is if they didn't, the plants couldn't operate. So those, that's good, that that oversight is still there. And the plants are still operating. From an FDA standpoint, the FDA inspectors may not be able to get to as many places. They'll still be doing outbreak investigations. We've seen in one of the outbreak investigations, we're going to talk that they're still making updates to the that. So we know that that that work, at least at some volume, is still occurring. The other thing that we know is the FDA does an awful lot of their inspections through the states, which, at least in the short term, won't be affected by this. The longer this goes on, there's going to be more casualties and more things that happen and stuff. But. But at this point, the state inspections continue to go on. The other thing I'll mention is that the plants, the food companies also have their GFSI certifications or whatever certifications that they have. So as far as things like sqf or ISO 22000, brc, whatever, they happen to hold a lot of the big buyers, the McDonald's, the Walmarts of the world also have their own schemes that they use that they have inspections for. So it's not as if the food plants are just on their own where nobody's looking in. And we also know, both from FDA data, but also from insight surveys that we do, that most plants will see an FDA inspector maybe every two years. Some people see it one, some people see it as long as three. Even if this shut down were to continue for a while from an FDA inspection standpoint, a lot of that won't change. Again, the longer it goes on, there'll be more problems. But at this point, we really haven't seen those yet. So right now, hopefully a lot of this stuff that you're hearing is bluster. I would hate to see those furloughed workers become permanent. I have a lot of people I know that I work with at CIFSAN in College park, and I know that they're also working. So again, there's a lot of things going on. But as far as what's happening with food safety, most of it is still occurring the normal way that it has been occurring.
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A
Well, we're gonna be talking a lot about outbreaks in this episode. Cause there is a lot going on on that front. So this is where that public health piece for people to be aware, right. Where there may be some threats and stuff. So it's good to know that all that work, it's still being done.
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D
Right. And also that we'll keep up with that. So if we do find going forward, we'll keep up with that on exactly what's happening, what's being affected.
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A
Yeah, we'll do our best.
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D
We have our ways.
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B
We'll find out.
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C
We do, yeah. So we will definitely keep you updated on everything going on with this. So next up, we also want to tell you about a deadly Listeria monocytogenes outbreak that has been linked to Ready to Heat pasta meals made by Fresh Realm and California California Ranch Food Company for HelloFresh. The recall has expanded to 15 states with 20 illnesses resulting in 19 hospitalizations and four deaths. The pasta meals, which were made with a contaminated ingredient supplied by Nate's Fine Foods, have been sold under various brand names at major retailers including Walmart, Kroger and Trader Joe's. The outbreak is being jointly investigated by fda, USDA and CDC and third party laboratory testing has confirmed that the outbreak has been ongoing for several months. On June 17, Fresh Realm announced a voluntary recall of prepared chicken Fettuccine Alfredo products sold under the market side and home chef brand names after routine USDA product sampling detected a strain of Listeria monocytogenes that matched clinical isolates from people who became sick as early as August of 2024. At the time, there were 17 illnesses and three deaths associated with the outbreak spanning 13 states. Also, one pregnancy associated illnesses resulted in a fetal loss. Fresh Realm began testing individual ingredients used to produce its marketside Linguine with Beef meatballs and Marinara sauce meal next and the linguine pasta samples were confirmed to be positive for listeria. On September 27, Fresh Realm notified FDA that whole genome sequencing had confirmed the linguine sample to be positive for the same Listeria strain that was detected in the recalled chicken Alfredo meals. Nate's Fine Foods, which doesn't sell direct to retail, began recalling lots of pre cooked pasta after the testing showed the Listeria positive linguine samples. The WGS results are pending to determine if the strain detected in the Nait's pasta is the same strain making people sick and the company is working with its customers and with FDA to determine if additional recalls are needed. Then FSIS also announced on October 6 that Fresh Realm had notified the agency that the spinach, which is an FDA regulated product used in products distributed by HelloFresh, also tested positive for listeria, specifically in containers of HelloFresh ready made meals, Cheesy Pulled Pork, Pepper Pasta and Unstuffed Peppers with Ground turkey. No reports of adverse reactions due to consumption of these meals have been confirmed, but FSIS also expects additional affected products to be identified and at this point I believe the list of recalled products with this pasta and also with some spinach items is quite large and spans a number of retailers. I know that's all updated on the FDA's site about the outbreak as well. So check that site for ongoing updates.
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A
And with these being ready to heat, I would imagine that they're probably out of. They're out of date at this point, right?
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C
Yeah, I believe. I looked at the list earlier, and I believe almost everything is out of date. I guess there's some worry that consumers could be freezing them. Freezing, right.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So, yeah, even. Even meals that are no longer are past their, you know, fresh date, they are still obviously acknowledging that these meals have tested positive for or the ingredients have tested positive in these meals, so that people can, if they do have them in their freezers or elsewhere, maybe still sitting in their fridge, they can throw them away.
- [11:34]
A
Well, and then to have, like, two really distinct ingredients, you know, pasta and then spinach also wind up in the same stuff, it's like, wow, okay, you're having a bad day when two of your ingredient supplies are testing positive for listeria.
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D
When I read through this, other than saying if the. We could let the podcast go on for three hours, we could talk about this for three hours, just because of the details and finding out more of what's going on here. But the thing that jumps out at me is how did this go on so long, particularly with listeria and what I'm going to call a ready to heat or ready to prepare meal. You know, they're just refrigerated. They're in the grocery counter there. But how does something like that go on that long? And what's their environmental program? What's their ingredient testing program? So there's a lot of those questions that I'd be really curious that without digging into all the USDA reports, you're not going to know, but I will. I will say one. Go ahead, Stacy.
- [12:37]
A
No, I was just going to say. I want to be clear, Adrian. I think you had said that this was actually. These are delivery meals and not necessarily sold in stores. Or are they both?
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C
Well, no. So they're. So the pasta that is implicated, that is provided by Nate's Fine Foods, that goes into a bunch of different types of these refrigerated, kind of ready to heat meals. So it's not only HelloFresh, which, you know, is like, you know, a delivery option, but it's other meals that are made under brands from, okay, different retailers. So, yeah, it's both. It's both Delivery and in store retail. And it alter. I mean, there's a spinach issue, but then the pasta, which was what kicked. Has kicked this thing off. The investigation is traced back to this one company. So clearly at that factory, there is a problem. The pasta maker.
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A
Yeah. Sorry to interrupt, Bob. What?
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D
No, no, no, that's fine. The. The other thing that Adrian said is they don't sell direct to retail, so there's not pasta sitting on the shelf somewhere. These are all going into commercial meals somewhere. Yeah, but the one thing that jumped out at me was when Adrian mentioned the clinical. You said that the whole genome sequencing identified samples from ill patients in 2024. So those are clinical isolates going back to 2024. Those were not samples that were collected as a result of this investigation. Those are ones that were found in the databases. So not only is this one complicated, but I'll go back to a point I probably make ad nauseam all the time, but this is one that probably wouldn't have been detected or would not have been even seen without whole genome sequencing and the databases. So I had to look this up just to show you, just to illustrate the scope of this. In 2018, just going back to pre Covid days, the genome tracker had 160,000 isolates. So if you were going to look back in. In the past, if you did this in 2019 or 2018, you would have been able to look at 160,000 isolates of clinical samples. Today, the genome tracker has 1.6 million or 10 times as many isolates. So that just casts such a wide net. This is one of those things that in 2024, had they not been collecting those isolates and leaving them in the database, never would have seen this.
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A
Never seen the connection.
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D
Never seen the connection or the match. That's right.
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A
And so what we're talking about here then potentially is harborage. Right.
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D
Well, so, yeah, it is interesting you had said something about looking at the ingredients, but there's also looking at the plant. So the ingredients may be coming in and I don't know any of this, but the ingredients could be coming into that plant.
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A
Oh, it could be at the plant where they're. Where they're doing it, or at the. At a supplier's plant.
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D
Right. And they're. And they're finding samples matching the. The WHS sequences are matching those found at the plant. So again, you'd have to get into the details exactly where those samples came from. But. Yeah.
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A
Wow. But with that database, and I think this is your larger point, this gives us a great deal of insight into what the source and where the potential ongoing source of contamination is and even finding these out.
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D
Again, the genome tracker is clinical isolates of people that were ill. Most people don't seek treatment or need to seek treatment, so we really don't know the real scope of how many people get ill from these things. But with that database we know a lot more than we ever did and can trace it back. And that's one of the amazing things that's happening right now.
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A
And we also know that we had, you know, pretty big gap on that for illnesses during COVID and stuff. I mean that like was not a priority.
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D
People were less likely to go to a hospital.
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A
Yeah, you're not going to go, right, Right.
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D
That's right.
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B
Yeah.
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C
So in other outbreak investigation news, the FDA recently introduced two new resources to help improve industry, government and consumer access to information on foodborne illness outbreak investigations. The new resources include Executive incident summaries or EISs for closed investigations and Foodborne Outbreak Overview of Data Reports Abbreviated Food Reports so the EIS abstracts offer a high level overview of completed outbreak investigations involving FDA regulated human food products. The summaries include traceback laboratory and epidemiological data and they are redacted per federal disclosure laws and FDA regulations to protect confidential information. These EIS abstracts are available on the Core Investigations table and a dedicated EIS landing page. As of the time of this recording, there are four EIS abstracts available, including an abstract for an outbreak that had previously not been communicated to the public. The Abstracts include an April 2025 listeria outbreak with a suspected link to Ready to Eat and deli sandwiches produced by Fresh and Ready Foods, an April 2025 salmonella outbreak linked to shell eggs sourced From August Egg Co. An April 2025 outbreak of E. Coli O145:H28 with an unidentified source, and a May 2025 Salmonella outbreak linked to cucumbers supplied by Bednar growers. So then the Food reports provide analyses of recurring pathogen commodity pairs linked to foodborne illness outbreaks. The reports include historical data, laboratory findings, traceback results, and prevention activities. The initial reports that have been released summarize hepatitis A outbreaks associated with berries and salmonella outbreaks linked to tahini.
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D
I have not seen these yet, but they look fascinating.
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A
Bob's going to do a deep dive.
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D
I will.
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A
I will indeed. I think as we all will, right?
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C
Yeah. The reports contain a lot of really good data and summaries for folks to and again, these are both issued after outbreaks are concluded. So, you know, either they're closed or source has been identified and the outbreak is over. FDA always announces when an outbreak is over and at that point that's when these abstracts and reports would come out. I think it's really helpful to understand patterns and also just, you know, take a look at historically what's happening without breaks in a given span of time and food. Commodity, commodity pathogen pairs.
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A
And we're going to be getting into more of that information next. Right. There's even more outbreak themes.
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C
Yeah.
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A
So information.
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C
This is kind of. Yeah, this is a kind of great segue into the next news story we want to share with you. Kind of continuing with the outbreak theme. So the CDC recently, recently released a report that showed that fruit, vegetable row crops and chicken caused the greatest number of multi state foodborne illness outbreaks in 2023. So during that year, CDC investigated 84 multi state disease outbreaks, 50 of which were solved. A suspected source was identified for 22 of the outbreaks and a confirmed source was identified for 28 outbreaks. Of the 50 solved outbreaks, 32 were linked to contaminated food resulting in 1,219 illnesses, 421 hospitalizations and nine deaths. The remaining 18 outbreaks were associated with animal contact. Fruit was the most frequently identified food vehicle of illness causing five outbreaks totaling 439 illnesses and seven deaths. A single salmonellosis outbreak linked to cantaloupe accounted for 407 illnesses, 158 hospitalizations and six deaths. Fruit was followed by vegetable row crops and chicken causing four outbreaks each with vegetable row crops causing one death. Other notable foodborne illness outbreaks that occurred during 2023 include listeriosis linked to enoki mushrooms imported from China, salmonellosis linked to bagged dry dog food, salmonellosis linked to fresh diced onions served at long term care facilities, salmonellosis linked to both ground turkey meat and backyard poultry, and listeriosis linked to ready to eat caramel apples produced by the same manufacturer behind a 2017 listeriosis outbreak. So among the 32 multi state foodborne illness outbreaks solved in 2023, the majority were caused by Salmonella with 16 outbreaks followed by Listeria monocytogenesis with 7. Shiga toxin producing E. Coli or Aztec. Also seven outbreaks and Campylobacter with two illnesses associated with Listeria were most severe with 98% of patients being hospitalized and 4% dying. In contrast, 35% of patients with Salmonella infections were hospitalized and less than 1% died. 52% of STAC cases required hospitalization with no deaths and 38% of patients with Campylobacter infections were hospitalized with no deaths.
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A
You know, I'm probably, this is, you know, master of the obvious here, but what really stuck out to me just now, I mean, I read this over before we started recording, but as you're reading it, Adrian, was the number of hospitalizations. Right. And thinking really just as a person, you know, when we think about this as, you know, that event, like you are sick enough to take yourself to the hospital, I mean, that's pretty sick for me. I know I've got to be pretty sick before I'm going to put myself through any of that. And what a disruption and potentially expense and so on. I don't know, it just hit me as dramatic. But I also like that it was framed by the percentages because I had been thinking about that, listening to all these different numbers and I was like, oh, percentages. And then getting to the end, there it was. That's very, very interesting information, even in a retrospective type treatment.
- [22:35]
D
I, I can't get over the fact that the word listeria or listeriosis is quickly followed by ready to eat or ready, ready to prepare. In the last couple of stories we're just talking about that as far as those kind of products. So that's the one that always jumps out at me is if those kind of products require that extra care.
- [22:54]
A
Well, and you know, thino, nobody cooks their salad right. Or fruit mostly. That jumped out to me too. Obviously we know that there have been many deadly cantaloupe outbreaks and so on over the years. But that stands out to me too because I tend to think of leafy greens and other vegetables before I think of fruit, which, I don't know, maybe that's just a mental block for me, but cooked. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:22]
D
The other thing that really jumped out at me is Adrian mentioned something about the caramel apples. I think she meant caramel apples. I don't know why she said it.
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C
Tomato. Tomato.
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A
Uh huh. Yeah, there you go.
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C
Okay. So moving over to Europe, the uk.
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D
I couldn't help that. I'm sorry.
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C
Sorry, Bob. Moving over to Europe, the UK Food Standards Agency, or FSA, has completed a 24 million pound four year pathogen surveillance in Agriculture Food and the Environment Program, or Path Safe for short. This program was launched in 2021 to address foodborne pathogens and antimicrobial resistance, or AMR, in the UK's agri foods system, led by FSA. The program, which was guided by a One Health approach involved eight cross government part including with the UK Health Security Agency, the UK Department for Environment, Food and Rural affairs, the UK Animal and Plant Health Agency, Food Standards Scotland, the UK Environment Agency, the UK Veterinary Medicines Directorate and the UK Department of Health and Social Care and the UK center for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science.
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A
In other words, everyone.
- [24:44]
C
All the agencies so foodborne pathogen sequencing data was generated from than 12,500 isolates from over 8,300 samples. This data helped create new baselines enhancing understanding of foodborne pathogens and AMR in different contexts such as livestock and imported feed. Also, genomic data platforms for pathogens like Salmonella and E Coli were created through PATHSAFE and are now being trialed across UK government. These include one flagship platform and 25 tools and models. New surveillance methods were also developed under the program, including wastewater monitoring. These methods helped highlight the risks associated with hospital waste discharges and the spread of pathogens and AMR into the environment. More than 15 biosurveillance initiatives were also launched under PathSafe, so outputs from the PATHSAFE program have been cited in major UK strategies including the UK Biological Security Strategy, the AMR National Action Plan 2024-2029 and the UK Veterinary Antimicrobial Resistance and Sales Surveillance Report. Building on the work of PathSafe, the UK FSA is developing a National Food Surveillance program to strengthen the UK's food safety and authenticity monitoring. This program focuses on increasing lab capacity, advancing testing methods, supporting cross government collaboration and using innovation and data to protect biosecurity. This program will include four work streams. First, enhancing the PathSafe genomic data platform functionality, developing attribution models to define the possible source of human infection and investigating the use of AI to enhance biosurveillance capacities. Then second, analyzing routinely collected samples for the presence of stech. Third, utilizing outputs from PATHSAFE and exploring the use of on site diagnostics technologies at borders and or abattoirs for pathogen surveillance and fourth, expanding cross government collaboration. So it sounds like a lot of things have come out of this path safe program data and programs and tools and so it's all good things for the future of food safety in the uk.
- [26:55]
D
There's a lot in that story, but the one thing I'm going to point out because I think this is one of the I can't think of another word to say this, but it's one of the coolest things going on right now is this idea of wastewater monitoring we had on Professor Ed Dudley from Penn State in Pod 191. And I'm getting a chance to work with him again because next week on the Washington D.C. iAFP chapter, we're having a joint meeting with the Washington D.C. chapter of the American Society for Microbiology. And we have a joint meeting and he's going to speak at that meeting about this exact kind of wastewater monitoring that he does and has been able to find outbreaks, evidence of outbreaks that nobody reported and nobody even knew about. So all these ones that we don't know about are being detected in wastewater. The other thing is, last year at that same meeting, and I'm not going to try to say the name again, but at the same meeting we had another professor speak on a similar topic. But Adrian, you mentioned the idea of AMR because of hospital waste being dumped into the environment. The other thing you can use wastewater monitoring for is to detect antimicrobial resistance genes that are present in the bacteria that are in the wastewater and notify hospitals to look for these type of infections coming in that may be resistant to those kind of antimicrobial. So if somebody were to come in and say, although they have an infection, give them antibiotic X. No, we already know that there's one in the city that's resistant to antibody X. We need to do something else and that's potentially life saving for hospitals. So this, this kind of monitoring is casting even a wider net than what we talked about before about genome tracker, although that's what you'll go back and have all these isolates, but we'll be able to see all of the outbreaks that are completely invisible right now.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah.
- [28:34]
D
So I think we're going to hear a lot about this in the next two, three years, that it's a really important surveillance technique.
- [28:42]
A
Well, and these are huge investments Right. In the UK And I think, didn't we hear about this when it first started up, that they were going to be starting this database and I think we reported on. I shouldn't be sitting here like wondering aloud on the podcast. All right, never mind.
- [29:08]
C
Yeah, because it's a huge investment though. £24 million, which I believe in US dollars would be almost $32 million. So. And obviously, you know, been the investment, it spans, you know, number of years that they've been working on this, but it's definitely a hefty investment in food safety.
- [29:25]
A
And this is the. Yeah, and this is the, the, the UK and I think that there's a similar program that's being, you know, and databases being developed in Europe. Right. In the EU that we've reported on in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of investments and, you know, we will reap the rewards. They will reap the rewards. I'm sure we all will because, you know, hopefully we're sharing this information, too. So it's all good.
- [29:51]
C
Yeah. Okay, so. And before we go today, we want to let you know about an updated directive from USDA FSIS that requires inspectors to augment their verification activities for major allergens to include gluten. The amended directive follows on the heels of the MAHA strategy released in September that noted concerns about gluten and product labeling. So this directive, titled Ongoing Verification of product Formulation and Labeling Targeting the nine most common, or big nine food Allergens, requires inspectors to verify that establishments are accurately controlling and labeling the nine most common food allergens and now gluten in establishments producing meat, poultry, and egg products. Now, although gluten isn't included as one of the big nine major food allergens as defined by fda, inspectors will now verify that establishments are accurately controlling and labeling gluten similar to the big nine allergens. And also, FSIS is removing certain tree nuts that are no longer considered major food allergens, updating its milk category to include milk from other ruminant animals such as sheep and goats, and updating the eggs category to include eggs from other fowls such as duck or quail. These changes to tree nuts, milk and eggs align with FDA's January 2025 updates to Food allergen labeling requirements. FSIS is not changing any labeling requirements for milk and egg, but it's just clarifying which types of milk and eggs are considered major allergens.
- [31:22]
A
I guess I'm confused by its suggestion. It's required, but it's not really part of the law. I mean, I don't know how I'm confused.
- [31:34]
D
Okay, so we talked about this in the planning meeting, and I will confess to being surprised at how many USDA products are covered by this because, again, I think the volume of USDA products are going to be meat, chicken, fish, those type of things, and eggs. I think that's their real purvey. And I think that most of those wouldn't really be covered by any of this. But in looking at the USDA covered products, you have a lot of breaded chicken, sausage with binders, sausage, sauces, and gravies, all that go into some of these products, all of which can have gluten or certain gluten type products that this would be affected by. So if it's an ingredient, it has to be declared as an ingredient. And my. My other understanding of this is if you're going to say something is gluten free, it had better be gluten free, because you have to have that truth in labeling. So I think that's where the USDA labeling requirements are not requiring it to say it is gluten free unless it is. But if you're going to make that declaration, it has to be. But there's an awful lot of products that intentionally contain gluten which have to be on the ingredients.
- [32:36]
A
Okay. So it's kind of related to the allergen thing, but it's kind of just a labeling thing. Right? Because, I mean, I remember there's a huge process, and I know there's supposed to be a. Before we go, Adrienne, we were supposed to just say it, move along, but apparently I couldn't, you know, that, you know, it was in 2019 that they changed to the big nine, and that was after the Faster act was approved, you know, made a law. So this is just. Well, I guess it's a labeling law, and labeling is. A lot are laws. Right. But in this instance, it's just a suggestion.
- [33:17]
D
Well, this may be a bad analogy, but if you remember when we were talking about sesame being in hamburger buns and things like that, and some of the bun companies came out and said, listen, we can't guarantee that there's never a sesame seed in there because they're too small. So what we're going to do is intentionally add sesame and put it in the label.
- [33:33]
A
Yeah.
- [33:34]
D
And then that way we're. We're covered because we're not making a declaration that it's allergen free. We're just simply going to say, it's. It's in there. So, yeah, there's sesame in here because we put it there. In this case, you would say, yes, there's gluten here because we put it there. I'm sure it's more complicated than that from a compliance standpoint, but I think that's roughly what they're saying.
- [33:51]
A
But. But sesame was on the list as something that bylaw you had to, you know, label for. Right, right. You had to declare. Right. So they're saying. They kind of were saying it's that, and we want you to do it, but it's not part of the law.
- [34:07]
C
Right, yeah. And I mean, this. This directive really is focused on inspection activities and telling inspectors, you need to verify that companies are not only controlling and labeling for the big nine allergens that are defined by FDA in USDA products, but also gluten now. So it's just kind of like a tag on. But, but this directive is really aimed at inspectors and what they need to do, which then of course dictates what companies are doing. So.
- [34:37]
A
All right, okay. Well, thanks both of you for entertaining me on that one. And as always, there are links to all of the articles that we've referenced in the show Notes, if you don't already, we invite you to follow us on our social channels, LinkedIn X, Facebook and Instagram. Just search for Food Safety magazine. And to take a deeper dive into all the amazing content that that we have, Visit our website, food-safety.com and now it's time for Adrienne's interview with Dr. David Diejak, who has served as executive director and CEO of the National Environmental Health association, or NEHA, since May of 2015. Dr. Diejak's 30 year career includes expertise in environmental health, emergency preparedness and response, public health informatics, infectious disease, workforce development, governmental infrastructure, maternal and child health, health equity and chronic disease. A board certified industrial hygienist, Digic also has advanced degrees in public health with a doctorate from the University of Michigan and a Master's degree from the University of Utah. And after a very quick break, we'll hear their discussion unlock a deeper understanding of the science behind food safety with a Master's degree from Michigan State University. This 30 credit master's program is heavily based in the sciences with opportunities to tailor electives towards interest or career aspirations. Whether driven by a personal goal for a graduate degree or a desire to ensure safe food, earning a Master's in food safety empowers students with the knowledge and tools to tackle any challenge. Join this network of professionals who are leading the way and making a difference in food safety. Visit foodsafety.msu.edu to learn more.
- [36:34]
C
So today's food industry workforce faces a multitude of challenges and opportunities. And here with me today is Dr. David Dijak to share NEHA's projections for the future of the food safety workforce. So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Dijak.
- [36:49]
B
Adrienne, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invitation.
- [36:52]
C
Yeah, we're so, so glad to have you. And you know, I know we talked about this a little bit in our discussions leading up to this podc, but we know that some shifts are foreseen in the food safety workforce and you talked about how NEHA has a wealth of data on who will make up the future of the food safety workforce and what these professionals will need to support them in their roles. So first question for you, can you kind of paint a picture for our listeners of what this future workforce might look like and what their professional needs will encompass?
- [37:24]
B
So thanks for opening up the discussion on the WHO versus the what. You know, normally folks like yourself are asking what questions, what can we expect? And, but really this profession, the public health profession, is, is about the who. And I think from a framing perspective, the just the gender composition of the profession is changing dramatically. When I joined NEHA, I can't believe it's Adrian. It's been 10 years. I, I've been with ne, been with NEHA. One of the quips that was introduced to me is the profession, including food safety, was male, pale and stale. And during my 10 years at NEHA, that has flipped upside down. If we look at who is in school at this time, looking at freshmen that are studying, let's say, the environmental health sciences and environmental health writ large freshmen. So these are 18 year olds. They're primarily women. According to the data I have from the Council on Education From Public Health, CEEF accredited schools have about 75% female as freshmen. As you move up into master's degree programs, that's probably like 2/3 and it's about 2/3 for doctoral programs as well. So as we look at who's actually in the pipeline, who has an expressed interest in working in, let's say, environmental health writ large, including food safety. And a lot of these people go to work in local government. Working in environmental health and doing retail food is their primary bolus of their work. What we can anticipate is that the workforce is going to be dominated by women. And that movement is underway already. Anecdotally, when I go and speak at affiliate meetings, these are state meetings around the country, in most cases, it's mostly women. And you may say, well, that's interesting in the United States, but it's true all over the world. I'm privileged to travel and to Europe, to Australia, to New Zealand. And the profession is dominated by women everywhere I go. And so we're anticipating three quarters of the workforce. And I say, we me, as I look at the data, and of course there may be other ways and we can talk about that, that people get into the food safety profession other than traditional environmental health degrees. But if this makes up an anchor place like this, these students make up the anchor for the future, it's certainly going to be women dominated.
- [40:12]
C
That's really interesting. And you know, so I mean, considering, considering that we're seeing, you know, women, women dominated future workforce and that the people who are going to make up that future workforce are now the younger generations, you know, who are still in school or very earlier in their careers in some cases. How do you think that the learning preferences of this future workforce will shape current education and training initiatives for the sector?
- [40:40]
B
So is your question what is or is your question what should be. I mean that those are.
- [40:47]
C
Guess both would be good.
- [40:49]
B
Okay, so. Yeah, so let me share with you that. Listen, I'm towards the end of my career, I spent 18 years teaching. I mean I'm pretty familiar with the environmental health profession, including food safety and supporting that throughout, throughout my career. I'm becoming increasingly concerned about the preferences of the current generation. Now, I don't want to sound like some old, and I hope I can say this without getting into trouble, I don't want to sound like an old fart, but I, I believe the, the foundation for food safety is in the sciences and understanding biology and understanding chemistry and frankly understanding physics. And it is the intersection of all of those disciplines when they come together, provide the foundation for the retail food and the manufactured food professional, food safety professional. And what I feel like if you look at what's happening in Maryland and what's happening in Massachusetts, where the governor has come right out and said we are going to open up all state jobs for people independent of whether or not they, they have a degree. Now there's some exceptions for medical and clinical kinds of things, but I understand what the governors are doing. They're trying to make employment opportunities open to everybody. But I feel that puts food safety at risk because to be an effective person in food safety, I do believe you need to understand all of the sciences. You need to understand the context for which food safety exists. It's not just can you take a 15 minute training and now you're an expert in X and this is where we're headed. I think this is what I'm observing and you can call me an old man. I think I used the, the flatulent term earlier. But the as, as someone who's observing the workforce and have observed it for almost 40 years, I'm concerned that we're trying to titrate down to 10 and 15 minute videos, which is what the current workforce loves. Just in time. It's. And I, again, I don't want to sound mean spirited, but like the tick tock and Instagram era, just tell me what I need to know so I can do it. But this profession is so Rich and so complicated and it's interdisciplinary. You have to understand what the rest of the professions around you are doing. All the processes around you, the engineering, in some cases, if you're in manufacturing, you have to understand how all of that works to be highly effective. And you can't do that if you don't. If you just have a high school degree with no background in the sciences and you do a 30 minute video and all of a sudden you think you're an expert, that you could go inspect a retail food facility or a manufactured food facility. Now take what I'm saying with a little bit of hyperbole, but I think you understand what I'm saying is in this post literacy era and we're in it, it, we are in it. I mean, folks don't want to read anymore, they don't want to read books anymore, they don't want to read lengthy articles anymore. They don't want to take the time to do that. I understand the world has changed, but you know, my team around me is saying we can do videos. This is the way this current generation wants to learn. And I think that there's a real risk with, with that. I think we're having a natural experiment right now. We can talk about AI and its role on things, but this natural experiment is how little can we do to prepare somebody for the profession and get them into the workforce as quickly as possible because there's that much demand. I understand the drivers, I'm acutely sensitive to those. But what we're talking about, Adrian, is the stuff you put in your baby's mouth. Do we really want that someone with a high school degree and a checklist who just had 30 minutes of training just in time to be out mediating that? I don't, I just became a grandfather. I, I don't want where my grandchild lives to be serviced by somebody who doesn't understand what's going on around them with the foundational sciences. And I admit I may be aging out, but you understand my perspective is to protect and promote the public's health.
- [45:23]
C
Yeah, unfortunately I agree with everything you're saying. And you know, I mean the, you, you pointed out that a comprehensive education in the sciences is really quite necessary to do these types of jobs. You can't become an effective or knowledgeable public health professional by watching TikTok videos. It's just not happening. And so I think that's really, that's an interesting and very salient point. But I guess I also had a quick follow up question. So you Talked about a few of those states who are opening up, up the criteria for public health professionals. And I guess I was also wondering, aside from trying to make I guess these jobs more accessible, could it be that there's a, there's a critical workforce shortage in that area in those states specifically, would that be a motivator for what some of those states you mentioned are doing or just, just a. I'm not sure. I'm just wondering if, you know.
- [46:19]
B
So I, I don't know, the whole country, it's gargantuan. Our country of 350 million people. I, I will say that there are jurisdictions, state and local that would take what you just said and start ringing a cowbell because that is their set of circumstances. You know, I've had people in, come to me from let's say Arizona, literally Arizona, and say to sit for the registered environmental health specialist exam that most counties and cities and states require, you need a bachelor's degree. We can't even get anyone for an associate's degree to apply for our jobs. What do you recommend that we do? So I am acutely sensitive to those issues, but with the rise of AI and with the rise of training videos and the rise of smart glasses that can detect violations of regulations, I think we are advanced fast forwarding and we're not being thoughtful about it. I do believe there should be foundational training that is provided to anybody in the retail food business. And if there are jurisdictions that can't find or secure someone qualified, we gotta talk about, I think a third way. Not just let's get them on and start doing inspections, but is there some type of onboarding process? For example, NEHAW is looking at developing what we'll all call a 101, if you're familiar with the term. It's like welcome to the environmental health profession. Again, for people working in environmental health, the largest part of their job is retail food inspections. So when I say environmental health, that retail food is a really important part of that. But there's organizations, maybe our role is to create a 101, maybe 40 hour class that includes a retail food. It's like here is a thoughtful approach to being onboarded into the profession and understand that this is just first step in your journey. I, I have a doctoral degree in public health and every day I learn something. Every, you know, every conversation I have Adrian, I learn something cool and interesting. And it's that perspective that I don't think you can get from a 30 minute video or a one hour video on, on how to do an inspection. It's the context under which we do this work. So I think as we hire people to answer your question, I believe they need to be onboarded really carefully. And, and that is let us provide you an orientation. But understand this is where one step in a hundred mile journey and we don't want to cut you loose on society thinking that you're, you're a professional now. Right. So that orientation part I think is really important.
- [49:26]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, also I think continuing education, there's something to be said for the importance of that especially in public health and environmental health. Right. So, you know, I mean it's one thing to get people who are well educated and who know, know their stuff, you know, into the profession, into these jobs, but then keeping them also up to date is important as well.
- [49:52]
B
So during, during this era of climate change. And I mean I'm, I'm riffing on your point because you, you, you've made a good one in climate change. Now it's not in the future we may see this thing, it's happening right now. And let me give you an example of what the workforce is going to have to encounter. There are parts of the world, many are tourist destinations where the, the engineering of manufacturing facility food manufacturing facilities and retail food outlets are designed for a different climate. Designed for a different climate, which, which means there is no fixing them, that you have to tear them down and, and build them all right back up. The refriger, refrigeration, the cooling, the heat, everything is designed for cooler temperatures. An example of this is what happened up in the Northwest in Seattle a couple summers ago. You remember that heat blob that was over the, the Northwest grocery stores were throwing out, discarding entire showcases of milk because the cooling system was not designed for the type of heat that Seattle King was experiencing. That's what I'm talking about. And that's what your point was. You know, things are changing. Continuing professional education is important and in my lifetime it's more important today than it was 30 years ago. So I think that. Kudos to you. That's a really important point you made.
- [51:24]
C
And you know, continuing on this theme of change, how do you see the shifting priorities at the FDA shaping the future of the food safety workforce and other federal agencies as well?
- [51:37]
B
Well, that is about as complicated of a question that you could ask any human being. What is going to happen at the FDA or any of the other federal agencies that have a bite of the food safety apple? My reading of the tea leaves is that The FDA is more interested today in divesting itself of its responsibilities for inspection and handing those off to the states. In some cases, I think the states will embrace that and would want that responsibility and possibly administratively and financially ready for that. On the other hand, there may be other states that aren't ready for that. They don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the talent, they don't have the orientation to food safety. So I think the 800 pound gorilla in the room is, is that issue. And that's really interesting that you would mention that. I, I haven't seen a plan, I have not seen a plan like here's how we're going to do it and here's how FDA saying here's how we're going to do that and here's how we're going to prepare those states to take on these, these new obligations. So it'll be for, I think, associations like NEHA to partner and collaborate with states one at a time, frankly, unless there are, you know, compacts in the Northeast or the Northwest or elsewhere where states rally around together. And by the way, I don't know if you've seen the news in New England. They are talking about taking over what has historically been a federal supported public health enterprise and, and just doing it, going, going on their own like seven or eight states up, up in New England. And we may see that, we may see shared services in the future. That is five or six states, they have a limited pool of talent and they share that, that pool. And then, you know, buy a pro rated chair, if you will, in terms of supporting the salaries and the benefits of those folks. But right now everything is in motion. Everything. So I think the, the key word, as I summarized our conference in Phoenix a few weeks ago, was uncertainty. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty in the field and we'll have to see how things shake out. And certainly we at NEHA want to do our part in contributing to the next stages of the country's public health development.
- [54:14]
C
We certainly have seen a lot of upheaval and instability at, you know, agencies like FDA and cdc. And that will certainly have a big effect on the, I think, efficiency and efficacy of, you know, people in this country who are charged with protecting food safety and public health. So, you know, we can only hope that things will sort out and get a little bit better.
- [54:38]
B
I hope so. I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of layers to the questions that you're asking. You know, one of the layers, whether you intended it to or not is is the current uncertainty scaring people away from getting into food safety as a profession? Because it's. They don't perceive it to be a stable kind of environment. From the government side, maybe the private sector is perceived is oddly enough, it used to be the other way around. Right. Government was stable. And you would never know, depending on business conditions, whether or not you would have a job in the private sector. Now that's flipped on its head. Kind of like the gender composition of the workforce is flipped on its head. This is flipping on its head as well. And that's a real concern to me that folks that might otherwise be committed to service on behalf of the US Population by working for local government or state government, maybe asking themselves, is this a good idea given the vagaries and the uncertainties of what's happening in the Fed today?
- [55:43]
C
Yeah, those are really good points. And, you know, kind of, you know, leading into my next question, you said you mentioned the private sector. So what would you say is industry's role in attracting and educating the future food safety workforce? And, you know, how does NEHA work with industry to help realize these goals?
- [56:01]
B
So those are two important questions. The first one is we have a business and industry affiliate and we are often asking them, what do you need? Are you seeing the same things that we're seeing? What are you worried about? How can we collaborate? We haven't achieved a place where we're making a lot of really great progress, to be to be honest with you. But the conversations are certainly happening at our annual meeting in July in Phoenix. These number two, Cesar Pena, number two person at McDonald's, was our opening keynote speaker. And so we're trying to socialize and normalize business and government. I don't work for government, but I represent it quite often trying to normalize the conversation between the two to benefit health and safety of the US Dining public. So we see ourselves as a broker or a catalyst to ensure those conversations and the phone lines are open and that we're making real progress there with that. NEHA also works with like Procter and Gamble and Micro Essential Labs, where we collaborate with them on training of the existing workforce. You know, Procter and Gamble and microessential Labs have expertise and technologies that we don't at neha. And we see our role as trying to bring that to the government sector so that they understand what private industry is thinking and how best to use the emerging technology. So I hope you see that. So niha's role is brokering and a catalyst and A collaborator between the professions. And that's where the action is. Right. The private sector and the public sector industry, I think, could do a much better job in my estimation, at offering internships because it reduces the mystery of working for the private sector. And I worked for a Fortune 2 company. I wasn't sure if I wanted to be employed with them after I got my master's degree. And it removed all the mystery from them. And I got a job offer, can you believe it? At the end of my summer internship. And I think industry really benefits if they offer a paid, let me say paid internship. Individuals will be attracted to that. And then there could be that feeling out process, do I want to work for this organization? And that organization can equally say, do we want to hire this person potentially. And if the answer is no on either side, then, you know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. The intern still got a good experience and the company gained greater insight into, let's say, a product from a particular university. So internships credentialing is something else that, that I think industry could, should be behind. We talked about maybe people without bachelor's degrees joining the profession. Well, one way to demonstrate that you're competent is through credentialing. And so I think that there's stepwise things that the and very metered and very affordable things that industry could do to make a food safety profession much more knowable, if you will, to raise awareness about it and to remove any of the mystery associated with working in that, that line of employment.
- [59:28]
C
Yeah, those are great points. And certainly internships can be very illuminating for the folks that, you know, take them. But then also, you know, if the company who is, you know, instructing that intern finds a good future worker, you know, and somebody who's interested and enthusiastic and knowledgeable and skilled, then that's a win, win for everybody. Or like you said, if it's a no on either side, then, you know, there was some knowledge gained there. So that's important as well. And yeah, credentialing, very important as well. So thanks for mentioning those points.
- [60:02]
B
So I want to interrupt you for just if it's okay. Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't want to be one of those guests that you can't get a word in edgewise. I used to run internship programs and what I found was this. If we placed somebody in a geographic area that was perceived as being not, not ideal, let's say it was rural or frontier or in a part of the country that maybe people don't historically like what we found is by offering someone an internship. They got there and they're like, hey, this isn't so bad after all. And so employers can, if, if they're sophisticated, they could use that approach if they're having trouble recruiting in a certain part of the country, remove the mystery by having your interns there. And sorry to interrupt you, but yeah, I just wanted to share that there's real benefits to industry in collaborating with universities and getting interns into their system.
- [60:58]
C
Yeah, that's a great point. So I did want to dive a little bit more into the work of neha, and I was wondering if you could share some background on this, the NEHA's Food Safety Committee and the work it does and you know, specifically how it's looking at helping addressing these food safety workforce training gaps and the challenges you're seeing on the horizon.
- [61:20]
B
So what we're trying to do with our Food Safety Committee is to identify those gaps and to make sure that we have the right tools and resources to fill that. So having private sector and public sector participants there in that Food Safety committee is really important to us because they can assist us in identifying the kinds of things that the emerging workforce needs to identify. They're also, industry is much more nimble and agile than, let's say, traditional government. And they are often able to bring new approaches to training and education that perhaps those of us in, let's say, because academia is more systematic and traditional and methodical, the private sector is really moving in a more fluid way. And so our committee brings those insights to us. Like, here's what's around the corner, here's how, you know, you might consider training the next generation. Here's what we're seeing in the current generation. You all need to address that further upstream. And certainly, you know, the digitizing of everything is something the committee weighs into, you know, how in this digital era, what is the best approach? Because, you know, we've really just entered that era using AI and other techniques, and they're really helpful with, with that. But I would say primarily it's education and training is the fundamental area of emphasis for that committee.
- [62:50]
C
Okay. And so I also know that NEHA offers several internationally recognized food safety courses and certi certificate programs. So I guess my question about those are, is who are those programs designed for? And, you know, what do they help learners achieve? Achieve?
- [63:05]
B
Well, if I could be so bold, I think not a lot. Not all. Not all. So I don't want to get into hot water with you, but a lot of the world turns to NEHA as The gold standard for certain parts of the environmental health enterprise, the rehsrs, our credential is certainly considered a gold standard for environmental health practice. We have a credential, also known as the cpfs, the Certified Professional in Food Safety. Many of our corporate partners require that their staff get the CPFs and many of those partners have places of business outside of the United States. And then increasingly with climate change, disaster preparedness and emergency response is becoming everyone's responsibility. And the types of courses that we offer are amenable to people, no matter where they work, to be able to take advantage of those things. Something that we're doing next week, and this is early September, so I understand this show won't go on until the middle of October, but what we're doing in early September of 2025 is having a de escalation training, Adrian. And that is useful for everybody anywhere. If you're in the public health enterprise and there could be, whether it's an inspection or whether you're auditing, which is a becoming an increasingly lucrative, I think, part of retail food work or manufactured food work that people could get into, there's always conflict because of, of just the very nature of doing inspections. And we're offering a de escalation training next week. At the last count there were almost 2,000 people signed up for it. Okay, so this is a free webinar that, that we're doing in early September. And that's the kind of thing that we attract people from all over the world. Literally all over the world. I want you to know, Adrian, our, our Journal of, of Environmental Health is now available in Spanish and it is very fat. Yeah, this is the fastest growing part of our website visits is from Spanish speaking countries and, and more. More importantly, our entire website by the time this, this, this podcast airs will be available in Spanish. And the way that we have it designed is that if somebody's in Argentina, the technology will recognize their IP address and provide them the information in Spanish right away. They don't have to select Spanish. It will and, but if you want to go back to English, you can. So what we're trying to do is to meet the learner where they are. And so as folks come to our website for information, for tools, and many of our tools, you don't have to be a member to get, you know, there's some things that are locked behind the curtain, but we're really big on meeting the needs of people outside the U.S. even though our primary audience is North America, we are doing everything we can to Spread the gospel, if you will, of environmental health. And wherever we can provide something like our, our webinar on de escalation, where we can provide it at no cost, we do that.
- [66:33]
C
That's a really interesting topic, the webinar and the upcoming webinar on de escalation. I can't say that I seen teaching on that anywhere else. So that's very interesting. Will that webinar be available for people to watch after it is live or.
- [66:51]
B
Absolutely. So it will be on NEHA, our NEHA YouTube station. What, what I would suggest in October of 2025, just go to NEHA, NEHA.org and in the toolbar search de Escalation webinar and and you'll be able to find it again free of charge. And we hope that the tools and resources from Ms. Alicia Love. She is a food inspector in Montana and this is her passion is de escalation. And the reason she's involved in this is because of confrontations she's had in slaughterhouses and other places where, you know, folks were upset over her findings.
- [67:31]
C
Well, that's really interesting and I'm glad you mentioned the information on how people will be able to access that webinar for viewing after it's happened live because certainly that's an important topic for people to look into if that's part of their job. You mentioned before briefly that NEHA also has some learning and education on disaster response. And that kind of leads me to my last question for you today. We know that increasing and more severe natural disasters have been brought on by climate change. And I think that proves a greater need for food safety and emergency preparedness by environmental health professionals. So this will also mean additional training amid an already stretched and kind of shifting workforce. So I guess how can these needs be met from your perspective?
- [68:19]
B
Yeah, not easily. I think your point is well taken. The workforce is stretched like Saran Wrap. Seems like we go from one crisis to another. If it's not a hurricane, it's a wildfire. It is Chagas disease in Los Angeles, it's screwworms coming up from Mexico into, into Texas. I mean, so every day is a challenge for public health workers. I think the, the trick here is getting back to what where this whole thing started. As long as the workforce is fundamentally trained in the sciences and they understand the context for public health, if they have that background, then dropping a just in time training on temporary food establishments is a one heck of a lot easier. Are you with me? So this is why I'm, I'm really big on fundamental conceptual training in the sciences, a little tiny bit of math, and let organizations like NEHA take it from there. I'm really afraid of overnight experts. That is, they come, they. And I'm not against degrees in the arts or history, but take your time and learn the profession, understand its nuances and complexities before you want to become the CEO or before you want to become the president, learn the skills. This profession is actually pretty complicated when you, when you think about it, it takes a couple of years to really get your feet underneath you, to get your, your, your land legs back after being out at sea. And let's not rush that workforce in number one. They'll burn out, they'll be frustrated. Let's prepare them properly and then I, I think there's much more likely to be success. What we don't want to have happen, Adrian, is for folks to feel like I, I'm out of here. We want to create a sustainable workforce. We want to create those career ladders and you asked about private industry, and particularly in the private industry, we want to have those career ladders and we want to make it okay, Adrian, for people to work in the private sector, spend some time in the government sector. Then going back to the private sector, there's actually a lot of, of richness that I think is generated from that process. And you know, at least from the sidelines, I want to encourage industry and government to say, yeah, you know, our, when we lose an employee, you just gain some, some useful insight. And, and I think that familiarity is really helpful over time.
- [71:08]
C
Yeah, I think those are really great points and you know, especially about making sure that workers are prepared to go and educated to go into these fields so that you don't have people burning out, you don't have people being frustrated every day of jobs, which leads to these high turnover rates. Right. And I think that especially the younger generations are, you know, with, there's a lot of focus on mental health and wellness in the workplace and they're very aware of how they feel in their jobs, how they feel when they're at work. And you know, so I think those are important considerations to keep in mind when we're looking at the future of the food safety workforce and welcoming these generations that, you know, may still be in school or very early in their careers into the field, you know, within a few years time.
- [71:51]
B
So, so this is why this orientation in the beginning is important. And I'm sorry if I'm animated about it, but, but, but it's critical if, if someone is brought in with a checklist mentality, like a weights and measures mentality or a code enforcement, even if it's within a company, a code enforcement approach that is naturally conflict driven because you're potentially in conflict with somebody who's running that facility. Having a public health orientation is different. It's like, how do we solve a problem together? How do we protect the health, safety and economic prosperity of everybody associated with this thing? And by having the proper orientation, the context I mentioned earlier, then there's much less likely to be conflict and folks will enjoy their employment more, they're more likely to stay. And so I'm just not being an old man pontificating on the, on the value of education. It really is important to have the right mentor, to have the right foundational skills, to have the right foundational education. It's critical to be, to have long term success.
- [73:05]
C
Absolutely. Well, Dr. Dijak, I wanna thank you for being with us on the podcast today to talk about, you know, the shifts and the changes that you're seeing in the future of the food safety workforce and, you know, how we can prepare for that and how we can help accommodate the people that are gonna be coming in to accommodate and educate the people that are gonna be coming into the workforce. Really important topics because, you know, we know that the, the students of today are our future, you know, environmental health and public health professionals tomorrow. So, so thanks so much for this riveting discussion. I think this is really interesting for our listeners. So appreciate you being on the podcast.
- [73:39]
B
And I appreciate the invitation. Thank you, Adrienne.
- [73:43]
A
Thanks again to Dr. David Dijak for joining us on the podcast today and once again, thank you all for listening. A very special thanks to our presenting sponsor, Michigan State University. To learn more about their master's degree in food safety, Visit food foodsafety.msu.edu and click on the Master's program link. Now. You know we love hearing from you, so please don't hesitate. Send us questions or suggestions to podcastood-safety.com or post a note on LinkedIn, X, Facebook or Instagram. We're always excited to get your feedback and to make sure that new and bonus episodes magically appear in your podcast player. All you have to do is click that Follow or Subscribe button in the player of your choice and presto, bingo. All the episodes appear. And while you're there, please throw some stars our way by rating the podcast, especially if you liked it. It only takes a moment and it's good for everyone. And just like that, that's it. For us today. Our next regular episode will post on October 28th. In the meantime, take good care of yourselves and those around you, and we'll talk to you then.