Podcast Summary: Food Safety Matters – Fixing the Outbreak Investigation System

Podcast: Food Safety Matters (Food Safety Magazine)
Episode: Yiannas, McDonald, Besser, Hedberg: Fixing the Outbreak Investigation System
Date: December 30, 2025
Host: Adrienne Bloom
Guests: Frank Yiannas, Drew McDonald, Dr. John Besser, Dr. Craig Hedberg

Episode Overview

This special episode brings together four top food safety leaders—Frank Yiannas, Drew McDonald, Dr. John Besser, and Dr. Craig Hedberg—to critically analyze how the U.S. foodborne outbreak investigation system is functioning, what’s working, and where it falls short. The panel explores fundamental issues with current investigations, the tension between surveillance and root cause analysis, and the need for improved transparency and coordination. A significant part of the discussion centers on bold proposals for structural change—especially the idea of creating a National Foodborne Outbreak Investigation Board analogous to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Are We Doing with Outbreak Investigations?

[06:44–23:32]

• Frank Yiannas’ Perspective:

  • Separates performance into two domains:
    • Disease Surveillance: Rates the U.S. as an 8/10. Notes that “We have one of the best, if not the best, foodborne disease surveillance systems in the world.” [10:37]
    • Outbreak Investigation: Rates only 4/10. Emphasizes, “We just have seen the same outbreaks happening over and over again...There’s a real gap in our ability to investigate these foodborne outbreaks, drill down to the root cause, and then disseminate that information…” [11:22]
  • Notes recurring outbreaks (e.g., salmonella in cucumbers) as evidence of inadequate learning and sharing.

• Drew McDonald’s View:

  • Largely agrees with Frank, especially on U.S. leadership in surveillance but criticizes lack of actionable communication:
    • “I just don’t know if we’re communicating the right things that are going to drive the change that we need.” [14:22]
  • Says: “I don’t think we’re getting better. I know we’re not getting better. And I think that’s the huge opportunity…” [15:33]

• Dr. John Besser’s Input:

  • Outlines how the U.S. system works—local reporting, state and CDC database, DNA fingerprinting, cluster identification.
  • Lauds the progress made, especially with “cutting edge technology, PulseNet ... We really have world leadership in the epidemiology methods.” [21:26]
  • But, “As good as it’s already working…we can do much better.” [22:44]

• Dr. Craig Hedberg’s Analysis:

  • States: “We’re better at detecting outbreaks than we are at investigating them.” [23:33]
  • Highlights built-in inefficiencies: time delay (“two to four weeks usually between when somebody gets ill before we can really link them”), memory issues, loss of packaging, and complications with tracebacks in complex foods (e.g., hamburger).
  • Notes resource limitations at local/state level: “Very few of these are dedicated people working on foodborne disease surveillance. They might have ten other responsibilities.” [27:23]
  • Points out lack of incentive for in-depth investigations at the state/local level after an outbreak stops.

2. What’s Working Well Right Now?

[29:09–38:41]

• Strengths Identified:
  • World-leading Surveillance/Detection: PulseNet, Whole Genome Sequencing (WGS), and fast cluster detection repeatedly cited as “game changing.” [31:36] (Yiannas)
  • Strong State & Local Investigative Work:“Applause to the men and women who do this work at the state and local level…There have been outbreaks that just wouldn’t have got solved without their amazing work.” [32:45] (Yiannas)
  • Industry Response: McDonald credits U.S. industry—especially fresh produce—for using outbreak data to sharpen food safety practices, citing, “famously the leafy greens marketing agreement for California and Arizona.” [34:38]
  • Better Questions & Collaboration: FDA has improved in asking the right questions and learning from industry input, though improvement is still needed.

3. What Are the System’s Weaknesses & Opportunities?

[39:27–56:30]

• Need for a Culture of Urgency & Action:

  • Hedberg: "We need to really develop that sense of both urgency in our public health investigations and a sense of importance that the work ... fundamentally matters." [39:52]

• Main Areas for Improvement (per FDA’s ‘Outbreak Improvement Plan’): [41:11–48:03] (Yiannas)

  1. Tech-Enabled Traceability: Modern tools to track products from consumption back to source, closing gaps where 50–60% of investigated outbreaks can’t even identify the food vehicle.
  2. Standardizing Root Cause Investigations: Lack of consistent methodology and performance standards was highlighted.
  3. Data Dissemination: “Once we do the root cause … share those learnings with others. Not everyone has to touch the hot stove.” [47:01]
  4. Performance Measures: Currently missing; critical for accountability.

• Structural Fragmentation:

  • McDonald flags, “We do have a fragmented food regulatory system … I have been flat out told [the agencies] are not beholden to each other.” [50:35]
  • Examples given: cheese pizza (FDA), pepperoni pizza (USDA), eggs (split by shell/processed).

• Scientific Rigor & Flexibility:

  • McDonald challenges lack of scientific nimbleness and objectivity, especially in the use of WGS data:
    • "There tends to be this doubling down effect... Sometimes those outliers...could be the most important to actually getting to the bottom of things." [54:44]

4. Big Idea: National Foodborne Outbreak Investigation Board

[56:30–73:56]

• Concept Introduced:

  • Yiannas proposes a board modeled after the NTSB, providing independence, strong accountability, and a quarterback for multisystem investigations:
    • “What I proposed is, you know, having a National Foodborne Outbreak Investigation Board … that would provide a little bit of independence...and could facilitate greater coordination.” [57:12]
  • Emphasizes a prevention-first “zero tolerance” culture, inclusive fact-finding, and broad dissemination of findings.
  • “To be candid with you, doing this for almost four decades, I have never seen [regulators] disseminate information to similar regulated industries and even ask them to make changes.” [62:06]

• Panel Reactions:

  • Besser: Supports, echoes benefit of independence: “I think getting all those functions in one place makes a lot of sense. The reason NTSB doesn't go away is because that system works. And I think this would too.” [64:11]
  • Hedberg: Advocates independence and public access to findings: “The independence and then public access to the information are really the two key things that I see.” [66:24]
  • McDonald: Approves, sees need for actionable reports and a formalized system: “Having this coordinated role, we can take advantage of the skill sets, experience across the board … But, often, there’s not a lot of actionable information.” [68:06]
  • Besser (on tech): Notes need for scalability and sustained advancement: “It is an extremely big job to go all through that and find all the potential clusters or trends that would be useful. So I think it’s really imperative that we keep up with technology.” [71:03]
  • Yiannas: Emphasizes the proposal doesn’t require creation of a single US food safety agency: “We can do this, this proposal now.” [73:37]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Frank Yiannas:

  • “Investigating an outbreak, identifying the food involved, and pulling it from the marketplace is not good enough. That results in what we call secondary prevention.” [09:34]
  • “Our ability to detect signals and clusters and link them to food is a success story.” [31:50]
  • Regarding airline safety as a model: “They investigate those with rigor. They have a body...that really insists on getting to root cause. That culture that every airline accident can be prevented.” [57:30]

• Drew McDonald:

  • “I don’t think we’re getting better. I know we’re not getting better. And I think that’s the huge opportunity…” [15:33]
  • “Not every state is created equal. Not every state does the same work for all different reasons…” [36:51]

• John Besser:

  • “We really have world leadership in the epidemiology methods.” [21:26]
  • “We are dealing with now, more than any time in history, is big data.” [70:52]

• Craig Hedberg:

  • “We’re better at detecting outbreaks than we are at investigating them. And there’s a number of reasons for that.” [23:33]
  • On culture: “We always had the standpoint that foodborne outbreaks were public health emergencies…” [39:41]
  • “Findings have to be made public ... The information never leaves the agency really limits the value of the exercise.” [65:41]

Important Timestamps & Topics

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 06:44–13:05 | Ratings & perspectives on current outbreak investigation performance (Yiannas, McDonald) | | 16:01–23:32 | Federal & state process breakdown (Besser), U.S. system strengths | | 23:32–29:09 | Challenges: time delay, complexity, human factors (Hedberg) | | 29:23–38:41 | Successes: surveillance, detection, industry action, improving questions | | 39:27–48:03 | Needed improvements: culture, new tech, root cause focus, performance standards | | 48:36–56:30 | Industry’s view: regulatory fragmentation, nimbleness, misattribution risks | | 56:30–73:56 | The NTSB-model Board: proposal, expert responses, tech needs, actionable knowledge | | 73:56–75:07 | Wrap-up, reflections on collaboration, speed, and the path forward |

Conclusion

The panel reaches a clear consensus: while the U.S. system is ahead of the curve in detection and surveillance, actual investigations and follow-through fall short—repeatedly failing to translate findings into systemic and industry-wide risk elimination. Integration, a coordinated investigative board, and a stronger prevention culture—backed by technology and performance measurement—are repeatedly called for as the way forward.

A memorable quote to close:

"What’s experience? You all tell the 3-year-old, 'Don’t touch the hot stove,'...We can give the industry experience of the lessons learned because of the mistakes of others."
— Frank Yiannas [47:01]

For food safety professionals, this episode provides not only a diagnosis of systemic weaknesses but also a roadmap—and challenge—for meaningful change.