A nine-goal thriller at Fulham and Romero rescues Spurs – Football Weekly

Summary

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Football Weekly — "A Nine-Goal Thriller at Fulham and Romero Rescues Spurs"

Podcast: Football Weekly by The Guardian
Episode Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Max Rushden
Panelists: Barry Glendenning, Johnny Liu, Will Unwin, Clive
Special Guest: David Conn

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Episode Overview

This Football Weekly episode dissects a wild Premier League weekend, including the astonishing 5–4 Manchester City win at Fulham, dramatic late action as Romero saves Spurs, Newcastle’s ongoing struggles, the Premier League relegation scrap, an irreverent look ahead to the World Cup draw, and a deep, heartfelt segment on the continuing lack of justice for Hillsborough. The trademark Football Weekly humor, sharp insight, and lively debate are ever-present.

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1. Fulham 4–5 Manchester City: The Nine-Goal Mayhem

Timestamps: [01:29]–[12:05]

Key Points & Discussion

• The panel marvels at Fulham's spirited near-comeback after being 1–5 down, the quality of most goals, and a frantic finish that almost witnessed a historic draw.
• Both Barry and Max share their personal goal rankings, agreeing that Doku’s was the worst.
• The effect of Craven Cottage’s home crowd is noted:
  • “You go to a game like that… every fan who was at that game is going to remember that forever.” — Clive [04:46]
• Discussion on City’s defensive frailties, squad rotation, and whether Pep Guardiola's ‘pacing for the season’ is softening technical edge:
  • “There’s just a little bit of, I don’t want to say laziness, but there’s a little bit of laxness to them.” — Clive [05:40]
  • "Guardiola keeps saying he can smell good things are going to happen... but I think unfortunately the overriding smell of shit in the defence might be problematic for him eventually." — Will [08:02]
• Haaland’s historic 100 Premier League goals in just 111 games draws awe and statistical context:
  • “Erling Haaland is literally twice as good [on strike rate] as some all-time greats like Ronaldo and Drogba” — Clive [10:20]
  • “His job is to score goals and he does. You can't really criticize the rest of it when your scoring rate is so incredible.” — Will [12:05]
• Barry provides historical context for Haaland’s feat:
  • “Dixie Dean got his century of goals in 105 games and Arsenal’s Ted Drake did it in 108. So Haaland, for me… is fourth on the all time list. Not top but there you go.” — Barry [13:58]

Notable Moment

• Max and Clive humorously recount Johnny’s household interruptions during discussion, adding a light touch to the stats talk. [11:28–11:51]

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2. Newcastle 2–2 Spurs: Romero’s Slow-Mo Overhead and VAR Drama

Timestamps: [14:41]–[25:12]

Key Points & Discussion

• Initially bleak first half; a brighter second tempered by lack of attacking threat from both.
• Focus on Christian Romero’s last-gasp overhead kick—hilariously slow and unintentionally brilliant:
  • “An overhead kick ever been slower than Romero’s? ... he does well to get up … but the amount of time it takes to go in is sort of hilarious.” — Max [17:05]
  • “…the sort of, you know, grandmother overhead kick. I like to describe it as.” — Johnny [18:36]
• Tottenham’s midfield struggles to protect the defense, with injuries and form under scrutiny. Calls to avoid calls that Thomas Frank is ‘out of his depth’ as premature.
• Contentious penalty for Newcastle—most guests and referenced pundits (Carragher, Woodgate) did not think it should have been awarded.
  • “I thought this was really, really harsh and that sort of consistency thing you sort of think… maybe it shouldn’t be a penalty.” — Max [19:58]
  • “It's very much six of one, half a dozen of the other… it did look, by the end of it, Byrne had him in something of a headlock.” — Barry [19:58]
  • “You had Jamie Carragher… Jonathan Woodgate… two of the best centre backs… probably know a bit more... and they said it wasn’t a penalty.” — Johnny [22:39]
• Newcastle’s persistent struggles without Bruno Guimarães—stat referenced that Newcastle have never won in nine games he’s missed.

Notable Moment

• The group joke about overhead kicks possibly becoming Romero’s trademark, injecting their usual lightness into the analysis.

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3. Bournemouth 0–1 Everton: A Relegation Six-Pointer in the Shadows

Timestamps: [28:27]–[30:51]

Key Points & Discussion

• Barry, after enduring the whole match, describes a drab encounter lacking quality but praises Everton’s improvement and resilience.
• Bournemouth’s poor form highlighted: four losses, one draw in last five games.
• Everton’s striker woes:
  • “Those three are working… let’s not give the ball to him because he is not going to do anything.” — Barry [30:12], regarding Tierno Barry.
  • Panel jokes about the improbability of either Everton’s or Barry’s own goal drought ending soon. [30:51]

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4. World Cup Draw Preview & Infantino–Trump Oddities

Timestamps: [31:03]–[35:04]

Key Points & Discussion

• Johnny reflects on Gianni Infantino’s coziness with Donald Trump and the politicization and ‘price gouging’ surrounding the upcoming World Cup in North America.
• Bittersweet anticipation for the draw—excitement for fans, but disillusionment with the tournament’s organization and cost.
  • “It is increasingly beginning to look as chaotic as everything else. To be honest, while I'm looking forward to the draw, I'm looking forward to the tournament. I won't be going next summer.” — Clive [32:43]
  • “This is how FIFA get their money and then they dole their money out to… the people that support [Infantino].” — Max [33:51]
• Panel riff on the surreal entertainment lineup (Village People, Andrea Bocelli, Robbie Williams).
• Jokes about panelists being barred from America by costumed Village People.

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5. Justice for the 97: The Ongoing Hillsborough Tragedy

Timestamps: [36:50]–[48:29]

Key Points & Discussion

• David Conn provides authoritative, emotional, and accessible context to the latest (and likely final) chapter in the quest for justice after the Hillsborough disaster.
• The police watchdog’s new report confirms no officers will ever be brought to justice, with families left angry and betrayed:
  • “We will never get justice… Nobody’s ever going to go to prison for killing them, so we’ll never get justice. And we knew that.” — quoting Charlotte Hennessy [36:50]
  • “It really makes you very, very angry … it is a disgrace.” — quoting Margaret Aspinall [36:50]
• David explores the “catastrophic failings” of police and the legal system:
  • “There is a legal finding that no behaviour by Liverpool supporters contributed to the disaster.” — David Conn [43:19]
  • “The failure to dispense justice and to leave the families with this like unbelievable, like ludicrous outcome… 97 people have been unlawfully killed, but nobody is responsible for the unlawful killing.” — David Conn [40:19]
• Panel discusses the demoralizing effect of 36 years of campaigning, how even well-supported families have been let down, and the legal loopholes that have allowed police to avoid accountability.
• Final reflection on whether public naming and shaming of responsible officers brings any solace:
  • “I don't think the families feel that they are living in disgrace and as pariahs. I think…they've had comfortable retirements on full police pensions and that the point about never facing accountability is, is that there hasn't been accountability.” — David Conn [46:41]

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Notable Quotes

• “This was the game to which I devoted the least attention… I sat through Bournemouth nil, Everton one in its entirety.” — Barry [02:59]
• “City’s defending…there’s a little bit of laxness to them.” — Clive [05:40]
• “Guardiola keeps saying he can smell good things are going to happen this season… but the overriding smell of shit in the defence might be problematic for him.” — Will [08:02]
• “Erling Haaland is literally twice as good [on strike rate] as Ronaldo and Drogba in terms of goal rate.” — Clive [10:20]
• “His job is to score goals and he does. You can't really criticize the rest of it when your scoring rate is so incredible.” — Will [12:05]
• “It was undeniably a shinner and it bounced on its way in… everything slowed down as this ball poodles inexorably into the back of the net.” — Barry on Romero’s goal [17:32]
• “36 years without justice. So think about just a lone family fighting a terrible injustice… it makes you fear that there's a huge amount of injustice in the system that isn't being acknowledged.” — David Conn [44:18]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:29] Fulham 4–5 Manchester City: The Game, Goals, and Comeback
• [08:46] Fulham’s Standout Young Players & Haaland’s Historic Feat
• [14:41] Newcastle 2–2 Spurs: Romero’s Overhead Kick & VAR Penalty
• [28:27] Bournemouth 0–1 Everton: Relegation Dogfight Analysis
• [31:03] World Cup Draw Preview & Infantino–Trump
• [36:50] Hillsborough Injustice Explored with David Conn

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Conclusion

This episode captures the very best of Football Weekly: lively, funny debate of Premier League storylines (from wild goalfests to comic defending and dodgy penalties), a dash of irreverence about global football politics, and real emotional depth on the sport’s most grave injustices. With diverse viewpoints and trademark panel banter, it’s an essential listen—for both laughs and reminders of the issues that matter most.

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Transcript

[Clive]

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[Max]

Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Fulham for Manchester City 5. What happened there? City 51 up, scoring with almost every attack. But 51 is a notoriously difficult scoreline. And what a shame that Josh King's 98th minute toe poke didn't make it over the line for the most unlikely comeback. Still lots of fun. And then to St. James's park, one of the worst overhead kicks of all time from Christian Romero. But an overhead kick all the same. Earning Spurs a point, not losing seems huge for Thomas Frank, especially after a controversial penalty. All we want is consistency, Clive. A good win for Everton too. At Bournemouth, who aren't quite as good as Bournemouth normally are, there's a World cup draw to look forward to. And then David Conn joins us. As the families of those who died in the Hillsborough disaster have said, it's a bitter injustice that no police officer will ever be held accountable for. A catalogue of failings set out in the final report of the Police watchdog. After a 14 year investigation, there will be no justice for the 97. This is the Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning.

[David Conn]

Hello. Hi, Max.

[Max]

Welcome. Will Unwin.

[Johnny Liu]

Hello, Max.

[Max]

And good morning. Johnny Liu.

[Clive]

Morning.

[Max]

Now, let's begin at Craven Cottage, shall we? Fulham 4, Manchester City 5. And I suspect, like a lot of people, Barry, I was. I was Watching Spurs, Newcastle. And then I saw it was four and I was sort of flicking between two and it was four one. So I sort of gave up on Fulham on this game until someone in the WhatsApp group mentioned this is a bit lively. And I was like, well nothing. There can't seriously been any jeopardy in this game. But what a ludicrous sort of. Well, the whole game was ludicrous but that comeback was mad.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah, bonkers. I mean sod's law dictated that this was the game to which I devoted the least attention while the games were actually on. I in an act of masochism sat through Bournemouth nail. Everton won in its entirety, but they were flat given the updates from Craven Cottage. And when Manchester City went 41 up just after halftime, you're like you. I thought well that's it, it's done dusted. But a brilliant comeback by Fulham in a game that had nine goals and most of them were bloody good goals. I think Daku's spawny deflected shot was probably the worst of them. I've ranked them in order of what I think were the best.

[Max]

Interesting. So have I. Okay.

[Barry Glendenning]

Okay. Well I will go with ChuckWeze number two. It will be Foden number one. Harland Smith row. Reinders Foden number two, Chuck Oesi number one and Doku.

[Max]

Wow. Okay, I've gone Foden one the outside of the box into the top corner. Smith Row because it was a diving header too. Iwobi Harlan Reinders, Chukwesi first, Chukwesi second. Foden second. Doku is the worst. That's my ranking.

[Barry Glendenning]

Right. So we're agreed Docus was the worst?

[Max]

Yes, we're agreed. We're agreed on that. Yeah. Ian says was that the best Kevin inspired comeback since the gerbil helped revive TV am. There is something Johnny about home crowd when they feel a comeback is on. You know, almost like the opposition are just sort of helpless. There's nothing anyone can do. This is just going to happen even if it ultimately didn't.

[Clive]

Yeah, there was. There's this great camera shot I think late on, you know, deep in injury time of the Fulham fans and they're all like, they're all having so much fun. I think, you know, you go to a game like that, you're expecting Manchester City to, to win. You expect. You're not expecting too much out of that game in terms of points. But I think every fan who was at that game is going to remember that forever. That's one of those games that, hey, do you remember when we came back from 5:1? And they'll remember that more than, you know, most of the wins that they'll have this season. It was a, like a really startling kind of comeback. A great moment. I think the key moment, underrated key moment is when. Is when Nico Gonzalez comes off. I think Gonzalez comes off at either 51 or 5 2. He comes off and he's an underrated sort of player because, you know, partly because he's not the best, you know, he's not even the best Nico at City. And also there's another. He's arguably not even the best Nico Gonzalez in football, but he's been really quite, quite important for City in the absence of Rodri. And they bring him off the stones and I think if he's on the pitch, I don't think those last two Fulham goals happen. I have a theory about City's defending, which is that if you look at how a lot of those goals are being scored, I think they are almost trying to pace themselves a little bit too much across the season. And I don't think there's enough aggression in the. Like, I don't think there's enough aggression from them in the first phase of defending. There are. They are letting teams have a lot of shots around the box. If you look at. They're taking an extra touch in the box. If you look at how Nunez, you know, Nunez against Leeds, where Calvert Lewin gets in, there's just a little bit of, I don't want to say laziness, but there's a little bit of laxness to them. I don't think it's tactical so much. I think it's the fact that Guardiola is so clearly trying to pace them for a long season physically. I think some of that is seeping into their technical defending as well.

[Max]

Dwz says City fan here. Is it normal to feel angry after a win? You're a City fan. Will, do you think. You sort of think if it's 2:1, they don't. It doesn't. If they're 2:1 up, it doesn't happen like 5:1 up. I mean, you can't say it's a dangerous scoreline, but there is something about five one where whoever you are, you just think, well, this is done.

[Johnny Liu]

Yeah, a few. A few cigars might have been brought out and lit up in defense. I mean, it is problematic that Matthias Nunes can't defend and Pep keeps going on about how he could be one of the best in the world. And I'm not quite as confident as him in it. Every time that someone got it on the wing and there's numerous people, they just knew that they had him and you know, easy crosses into the box and I think just the general sense of panic there, that's what's frustrating. You're supposed to be, you know, arguably one of the best sets of defenders. Expensive Diaz, Guardiol, really, really good defenders. It's just constant panic. Just trying to get the ball clear in the end. And Guardiol admitting he's watch the clock. It was, I mean it was mildly embarrassing considering, you know, what. What's available that they just couldn't cope. And I was expecting a. An equalizer for quite a while because Uncity weren't really getting out apart from then inexplicably Gardiol having one cleared off the line himself because that's what you weren't your sense about doing in the 90th minute. See getting through on goal because everything's all right. The other end, I don't need to be there. It's fine. I'll just get up the the pitch. So, yeah, and it has been quite consistently bad. You know, as you mentioned Johnny Ment mentioned against Leeds, some of the errors that led to goals there with Nunes again, just terrible defending Gvardiol for the penalty. They just don't look confident. Guardiola keeps saying he can smell good things are going to happen this season. But I think unfortunately the overriding smell of shit in the defence might be problematic for him eventually. Upside is forwards look alright at the moment. People other than Haaland have started to score because prior to the weekend it was haaland had got 14 and everyone else that had scored had got one. So yeah, Foden's finding some form. Doku obviously adding a goal to, you know, looking a very dangerous player on the wing is helpful. But yeah, that defense doesn't scream title challenge at the moment in Josh King.

[Max]

And Jacquezi Barry, I mean Fulham have two of the most exciting young players I've seen for a while.

[Barry Glendenning]

Josh King has made such an impression this season that I now no longer do a double take when I hear his name being mentioned as a Fulham player, thinking it's the other Josh King. He's very exciting player. Has he got his goal yet? I know that was a thing for ages. He. He kept scoring his first Premier League goal and then it kept being. They kept being disallowed by Var or being offside or whatever. So I don't know if he's got that yet, it's a milestone for him to. To look forward to. Like, like the milestone Haaland reached last night. He's really exciting. Chuckwaze is really exciting player. Kevin, I think is. Is did start really well. I'm not playing as well as he had. I'm not sure how many opportunities he's had. I thought the two goals Chuck Oze got last night were really good, really high quality. I don't know much about him, I must confess, but he's a delight to watch when on for.

[Max]

Yeah, he is. He has. First especially was a brilliant fish. Maybe I was wrong to put it down at number six behind Reinders. I just liked the move from Harland to Reinders on, on Harland's 100 Premier League goals. Johnny quicker than any other player. So he's Got it in 111 games. Shearer got it in 124, Harry Kane 141, Aguero 147 and Thierry Henry 160. We are witnessing history here, Johnny.

[Clive]

The stat that I, that I saw was that if you look on the list of the 100 Club, as it was in the Premier League, his closest challenges are the guys he comes up next are Cristiano Ronaldo and Didier Drogba, who I think a lot of people would have in the conversation for greatest Premier League forwards of all time. They've played more than twice as many games as Erling Haaland. Erling Haaland is literally twice as good as them in terms of his goal rate. You have to go back to guys like Dixie Dean and Brian, like Jimmy Greaves doesn't get close. That's how good he is. Now, a lot of factors you can talk about. You can talk about City's financial dominance, you can talk about state ownership, you can talk about economic stratification, you can talk about the greater protection that strikers get from referees in the modern age. But I think you can only talk about that stuff to a certain point. At some stage you just have to say this guy is real, genuine, one of a kind player with an absolutely unique set of skills and a set of circumstances that are perfect for him. And by the way, a very impressive fitness record as well. Yeah, he's good, isn't he, Barry?

[Max]

Yeah. I mean, for the tape, the whole of the Lou family came in during that answer. And a bit like one of those News24, you know, someone's doing a serious bit about, you know, the bonds market in Japan and then, you know, just like children running in the back. In the back. So, you know, I, they. We are now on video. Johnny, I don't know if you.

[Clive]

She's just draped me with a, with a.

[Max]

Okay.

[Clive]

A Chinese banner.

[Max]

Yes, I mean that, that, that is true what Johnny says, isn't it Will? I mean it's sort of when. And it's interesting that Harlan still has not answered everybody in how good he is. I don't know if that's ridiculous.

[Johnny Liu]

I'm just pleased I looked my daughter in a, in a padlock room earlier. So I should be safe for this answer. Yeah, I mean you still get a lot of the nonsense around, oh, he only takes nine touches a game and you know, he's not as involved as he should be. I mean, as anyone in football will tell you, the hardest thing to do is to score goals. And as it transpires, he scores a hell of a lot. An incredible rate. That's all you can do. I mean it doesn't matter what else you, what else you're doing in the game. It's not his fault that the rest of them can't defend or anything like that. And it should be pointed out, he did get a really good assist last night with what he can do, you know, hold off the defender, spin, turn, lovely ball through. He's not like a complete one trick pony. It's just his job is to score goals and he does. You can't really criticize the rest of it when your scoring rate is so incredible. And the thing is about him, I mean the only disappointment probably is that last night should have had more through on goal. Hit the inside of the post, header, hit the post. But yeah, incredible player. You speak to anyone about him, incredible work rate, commitment to football, etc. He's not just living off natural talent. He puts the effort in, he knows what he's doing. He gets better every season, which is quite impressive considering you know, what's gone before and he just has it and he has that puts that fear into defenders and the defenders are actually quite worried that he's not involved in the game because you don't know where he's going to pop up next. You think you sort of got him under control and then the next minute he's gone, he's through, he's out jumps you, whatever, because they've sort of think, ah, it's all right, we've got Erlingkir. His concentration levels of, you know, something you know, I've not seen in a, in a striker, you know, when you're not getting service, even that you can just sort of drift out the game and people think he drifts out but he's always involved, he's always trying to do something and eventually it comes off pretty much every game. As the. As the stats show.

[Barry Glendenning]

Without wanting to detract in any way from Erling's achievement, I feel I should stick up for players who applied their trade in the top flight before the Premier League began. Sunderland's Dave Halliday got his hundred goals in 100 games. Some debate it might have been 101, but it was certainly fewer than 111. Dixie Dean got his a century of goals in 105 games and Arsenal's Ted Drake did it in 108. So Haaland for me, Clive is fourth on the all time list. Not top but there you go.

[Max]

Noted. Let's go to St James's Park. Newcastle 2, Spurs 2. Absolutely terrible first half. A kind of all right second half between two not particularly good teams. Newcastle were a bit better. Johnny had more shots but didn't create all that much. Spurs only had two shots on target. So I mean I guess for Thomas Frank just not losing is enormous after the week they've had.

[David Conn]

Yeah, it was.

[Clive]

It was a huge moment and a. A huge moment that happened in very slow motion. I mean Romero who is. He is so pumped after scoring that first goal, that bullet header at the near post getting ahead of Dan Byrne and when he scores the 95th minute equalizer, the saves a point and very possibly, you know, saves his manager. He's almost a little bit embarrassed about it. Obviously everyone's mobbing it because as you see on the replay, it comes off his shin. Yeah, it is one of those moments that you think how is somebod. How has somebody not cleared that there's. It goes through two or three Newcastle players who are probably expecting it to come a lot quicker than it does. And these are moments that potentially, potentially turn seasons. I think Frank has I think attracted quite a lot of unfair criticism for you know, some of the performances have been bad. But I think, I think the calls that you see people saying he's out of his depth or that he's been found out, which I think is very premature. Spurs have not been playing well. I think there are a lot of mitigating factors there. Most of all, I think actually, you know, people talk about the injuries to the front four. I think the midfield is just not anywhere near good enough to protect a defense that you would say on full strength is a very, very strong. You know, one of the Best defenses in the league. Certainly one of the best center back pairings. But they are not getting the protection from the. You know, Bentoncourt and Sara are not giving the protection they need. And so they are getting exposed. You know they are. They're conceding again a lot of shots from. From you know, dangerous areas. They're not defending the edge of their box well. But this is, you know they did show a little bit of progress here. You know they were rocked in the early part. I think they. They came into it played some quite good football towards the end of the first half and then Newcastle were then basically able to. They brought on I think it's Bruno at half time and they brought on Anthony Gordon and Elanga and you know the strength of those reinforcements. They were able. The energy of the game.

[Max]

Ian says any chance Dan Burn can open the batting at the Gabba this week? Watching him leave Romero's overhead kick was exactly the technique Zack Crawley needs to adopt. Carl, is it possible to get a negative rating on the Trevor Sinclair spectrum as Kieran says, as you mentioned, has an overhead kick ever been slower than Romero's? I mean I suppose Barry, he does well to get up, doesn't. He's on the floor, he gets up and then. But it is just the amount of time it takes to go in is sort of hilarious.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah, his technique was good but he. It was undeniably a shinner and it bounced on its way in. But it seemed to. He got lucky insofar as there was just this narrow gap in a crowded penalty area and he managed to steer unwittingly I suspect steer the ball through that gap. I don't really know if Aaron Ramsdale should have done better or not but it. It did look like just everything slowed down as this ball poodles inexorably into the back of the net. And look it's the four minutes of added time, not really the time to. To debate the quality of the goal. And this look of all the Newcastle players were sort of looking at each other going how did that go in? But it did and it did.

[Max]

They.

[Barry Glendenning]

They will be gutted over that. I'd say Eddie Howe was sick, you know, because they Newcastle should have won that game. I think.

[Johnny Liu]

Do you know when a defender or someone doesn't score very often whacks one in from sort of 25, 30 yards. And for the rest of the season the fans, when he ever gets the ball in that position, just shout shoot. I think whenever Romero's up for a corner now there should just Be sort of chance for a replica of that overhead kick sort of every. Because if he can do, if he can do it there, you know he can keep doing it. I think that could be his trademark, the sort of, you know, grandmother overhead kick. I like to describe it as.

[Max]

The other big sort of moment from this game is Newcastle's penalty. Benton killer on Dan Byrne. I know I'm not objecting this but not even the Newcastle players really appealed for a penalty. T says after over two years of Arsenal pushing and barging on every corner, why does the referee clamp down on pushing and barging start with penalizing spurs for it? I mean that's not quite, but there have been others. I did look at Dale Johnson who knows the laws of the game. He says, obviously there's a question of consistency over holding decisions for me with the current guidance, including no mutual holding because Bensonko has absolutely zero interest in the play and only opponent means this is a fair var into intervention. But Barry, I'm not sure I agree. I think Dan Byrne is whole. It's not a headlock. People saying he's got pentacles head in a headlock but he's holding his head. I don't know, I, I thought this was really, really harsh and, and that sort of consistency thing you sort of think. In fact even on, on Monday's pod we were, we were basically praising the Chelsea defenders for doing this against Arsenal.

[Barry Glendenning]

No, I don't think we were okay. My initial thought was it was a penalty. And the more I look at it now, the more I think, no it wasn't. I think it was very much six of one, half a dozen of the other. But I think it was probably given because Benton Kerr initiated the pulling and dragging and because the ball was heading towards the area where Dan Byrne might have got it if he hadn't been impeded. But I do concede that it did. Look, by the end of it, Byrne had him in something of a headlock and his momentum appeared to cause both of them to, to fall over. But in terms of consistency, this happens all the time when corners are being taken and it's hardly ever punished. Yeah, I was surprised it was given, but I think you could argue, yeah, it was. Depending on which team you support, you could make a decent case for it being a penalty or not being a penalty.

[Clive]

Does anyone remember the Daily Mail's short lived hands off in the box campaign? They ran, they ran over several back pages maybe about 10 years ago.

[David Conn]

The, the.

[Clive]

The scourge of defenders grappling in the box has to be. They got Dermot Gallagher, I think they've got Martin Keough and they got a lot of, you know, prominent names in football to denounce this. You know, I, I don't think, I don't think it was a penalty because I don't think Romero has full control of him. Sorry. Bentoncourt. I think he, I don't think he can get out of Dan Byrne's headlock. He couldn't, he couldn't look at the ball if he wanted to. But I think on a more general point, everyone says, oh, you know, you've got to, you've got to police this. You know, this grappling in the box, it gets out of hand. I think one of the, one of the consequences of that is that it become. If it becomes harder for defenses to deal with a, with a set piece, you end up with the stultifying set piece ball that we've seen in the Premier League this season because teams simply see it as an opportunity to create chaos and they know that the regulations, the current regulations will be on their side. So. So for me is, is reason enough to, to, I think, give it. Give a lot of this stuff a bit of a pass.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah.

[Max]

I don't know what you think. Well, I just sort of think it just is so much harder for the defender because obviously if an attacker commits a foul, it just doesn't matter. It's a free kick and so it's just so weighted in and as, as Johnny says, you know, he can't, he can't get out. At one point he's like, he's, you know, if the phrase is he can't look at the ball because he's in a headlock from the, the attacker sort of think maybe it shouldn't be a penalty.

[Johnny Liu]

Yeah. You had Jamie Carragher on Sky said it wasn't a penalty. Jonathan Woodgate was on the radio saying it wasn't a penalty to two of the best centre backs, you know, over the Premier League. Probably know a bit more of what happens in the box and a lot of people.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah, but isn't that very much defenders union? Because that's three centre halves. Ex centre halves. Now I've heard saying it wasn't a penalty and. But their center halves, of course they think it wasn't a penalty because they.

[Johnny Liu]

I mean, I think it was a penalty.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah, it's a four.

[Johnny Liu]

Yeah. That bird just got up and went, if you like, can have one. I'm not too fussed. That's it. I think if you look at it, it's a bit of grappling. You know. I think Benson caused problem is he gets wrong side at one point. So it looks. Looks a bit worse. But I mean as you say, I think it's just a. One of those where it's a dangerous game if they're being given especially on review. If it's given by the referee and he doesn't change his mind, fine, etc.

[Max]

That's the mad thing. It's like how is that reviewed? How is they. How have they since reviewed? Anyway, I just want to ask with a question on Newcastle which you sort of think of really firing Newcastle as they were against Everton. You know, win that game like and they're just not. Tottenham are not quite at it, sure. But Newcastle aren't quite at it either.

[Johnny Liu]

I mean they're quite at it in the second half. You know, those changes, you know, did create a bit of momentum, bit of energy that was completely lacking. I mean without Bruno Guares in the starting lineup, Newcastle don't win. In the nine games he's missed, you know, over a lengthy period, they've not won a single one. Which shows that he's quite important and probably. Probably you know, more important than Tonali. And maybe he should be on the. On the pitch from the start. I know it's a difficult schedule, etc. But also you know, I think the game in general at the start Newcastle the more positive. And then it sort of settled down into absolute dearth. But then Gordon is another one who hasn't been at it all season in the Premier League turns up in the Champions League. So fair play to him. Did really well there. But I think Newcastle got hope. That's a turning point for him. Coming in and making a big impact. Looking dangerous throughout. Really cool for the penalty in quite difficult circumstances where obviously it went on for a long time. And then even after that it was sort of the bizarre situation where he did take the ball originally and then Volta Marda got involved and then he got the ball back. But you know, it was. It's always those sort of comical situations of no, no, I'm taking the belt. No, no, I'm taking. I think it's just a team in Newcastle that are really finding the schedule quite difficult because of the squad.

[Max]

Yeah, it was just another deft. It was just another deft assist from Voltamind.

[Johnny Liu]

Yeah.

[Max]

Anyway, that'll do. That'll do for part one. Part two. We'll begin at the vitality.

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[Max]

Welcome to Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Michael says how pleased was Barry with his Declan Rice zinger at the FSA Awards. Yes, we are the champions. Thank you to everyone for voting. Don't ever let us down again. You were there, Barry. You brought the house down with your victory speech.

[Barry Glendenning]

Well, it's not really for me to say that I did that. It seemed to go down well. It wasn't so much a speech as, well, the hostess, Victoria Derbyshire, asking me questions and then me proceeding to answer completely different ones. But I got a dig in at Declan Rice, who won Player of the Year and turned up to collect his award in person, which is always nice when a player makes the effort to do that. It's not always possible for them to do so. Alessia Russo won Female Player of the Year, but she, she was busy on England duty, so she couldn't be there really. Good night. Put on by the FSA again, as always. And this year they did it in the most awful circumstances because the FSA chief, Kevin Miles, who sort of starts the evening each year with a kind of state of the nation address, was absent because his son very tragically died last week. So that kind of put down her on the whole evening. Kevin's a lovely bloke. His staff at the FSA are Lovely, lovely people. They're very tight knit so for them to, to be able to put on such a good night in those awful circumstances was hats off to them. I suppose it was a good evening nonetheless. Our, our thoughts go out to Kevin whose friend of the show of course.

[Max]

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Wonderful guy. And you have our deepest, deepest sympathies. Back to the Premier League. Bournemouth nil. Everton won. Andrew says Bournemouth look lost right now. Could they get dragged into relegation trouble? I Barry, you as you said sat through the whole of this game while the entertainment was happening elsewhere. What did you make of it?

[Barry Glendenning]

It wasn't great I have to say. Bournemouth are in a real rut now. They've lost four and drawn one of their last five games. They started this one quite well. They had a couple early half chances. Then Everton started to take control. Both teams missing that killer final ball. Anton Semenya had probably the best chance of the first half but was denied by by Pickford. Everton had a series of corners at one stage where it looked like they might score. Alex Scott headed onto his own bar. Tierno Barry was denied by a combination of the post and Petrovic in the Bournemouth goal. Bournemouth had a goal disallowed for offside. Croupy goal dislod for offside. But it was a pretty poor first half. The second half Tierno Barry missed another decent chance after a ball ricochet. His waves denied by Petrovic and the goal from Grealish took a horrible deflection that completely wrong footed Petridge. I'd say Everton probably just about deserved to win. It wasn't a good game. I the one thing I did notice in this game is Jack Grealish, Illiman and Jai and Kieran and Dewsbury Hall. Everton have a brilliant front three, you know operating behind Tierno Barry but they seem to have just completely given up on on Barry and they're almost operating as if he's not there on the.

[Max]

Field much like we do on this pod I guess.

[David Conn]

Yeah.

[Barry Glendenning]

Very good. I don't want to pick on him because Beto is no better. I think Beto has got one goal this season. Tiernabarry still hasn't scored. Yeah, I very much get the impression that those three are working. Look, let's not give the ball to him because he is not going to to do anything. And the chances that did come his way, one was from a ricochet one and the others were from corners. So yeah, that's kind of interesting to see. And you wonder how good Everton could be if they had a decent striker, but they don't and they need one.

[Johnny Liu]

I just think. I think that was. Barry had his first shot on target of the season last night, which isn't.

[Max]

So he's getting there. He's getting there.

[Barry Glendenning]

He did have a goal disallowed at the weekend, I think.

[Max]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Adam did say who will score a Premier League goal first, Barry or Barry? I mean, you know, Barry has a better chance, but you never know. Barry might make it. Johnny, it's the World cup draw on Friday. You wrote a big piece about Gianni Infantino's quite cozy relationship with, with Donald Trump. Are you looking forward to the peace prize and the draw itself?

[Clive]

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. What isn't it? I mean, we used to look forward to. I mean, World cup draws used to be so much fun. I guess a lot of people will still have, you know, fun. I've just.

[Max]

Oh, yeah, I'm still looking forward to, you know, all the groups and all that stuff, you know, that's fun.

[Clive]

Yeah. The pots and the, and the permutations. I've just had an email drop into my, to my account from FIFA from the FIFA press office. Thanks. Star studded entertainment lineup announced for the. For the final draw, icons Heidi Klum and Kevin Hart, live performances from Andrea Bocelli, Village People and global music superstar Robbie Williams. So, you know, I'm sure a lot of people will have a good deal of fun, but obviously it is hard to, it is hard to escape the shadow of, you know, the fact that it's taking place at the Kennedy center in Washington, which is one of those institutions that has pretty much been, been Trump washed. He's installed himself as the, as the, the president or the chairman or something and, and installed board members that are all Trumpists and turned it into his little opera house. The fact that even now, six months from the tournament, we're not entirely sure which cities are going to be hosting which matches because Trump is still threatening to take games away from cities he's threatened to invade co hosts. And Infantino is chuckling along when he.

[Max]

Jokes about.

[Clive]

Is a World cup like no other. And I think for a lot of people who, who like the World cup because it's almost a little bit of a, a change in pace, a change in tone from, from, you know, the rest of football, it is increasingly beginning to look as chaotic as everything else. To be honest, while I'm looking forward to the draw, I'm looking forward to the tournament. I won't be going next Summer. And, and I'm. I'm not envious of anyone who is. Frankly, to be honest, I. I find a lot of this really quite distasteful and hard to get on board with.

[Max]

We're going, aren't we, Barry?

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah.

[Johnny Liu]

Good luck.

[Clive]

I mean, good luck. Good luck in the queues, good luck and, you know, good luck showing them your social media accounts and, you know, and how much stuff costs out there. Like, you know, it's a price gouging exercise. A parking space. A parking space at the final is going to cost, I think, £150. That's even before you get onto ticket prices, you know, and are people in America really going to want to pay thousands of pounds to watch? You know, it was Becca Stein against Cameroon. Did Cameroon even make it, you know, or, you know, Jordan against Sweden or whatever, or if they make it.

[Max]

So, yeah, apart from that, it's going to be great. I guess we do forget it's in Canada and Mexico at the same time, don't we? Sort of. They, you know, and Infantino sort of hasn't, really has certainly spent significantly less time, if any time with, you know, the, the leaders of, of those countries. And that issue about price gouging is, you know, this is how FIFA, this is how Gianni maintains his power, Right? Because this is how FIFA get their money and then they dole their money out to, you know, other, you know, to, to the. The people that support him, the Village.

[Johnny Liu]

People that support him, by the sounds of it. They don't come cheap. I mean, I think it's all worthwhile if it gets to Village People back up.

[Max]

Well, they all still go into Village People, you know, they still.

[Clive]

They save a lot on accommodation.

[Max]

Of course they do. But can they all dress up like that? I mean, I'm sure they can't do. I mean, maybe, who knows?

[David Conn]

We'll see.

[Johnny Liu]

They're all working for ice now. Yeah, they've got a lot of the uniforms.

[Max]

Oh, God. Imagine if me and Barry try and get into the States. We're taken down by the construction worker from the Village People and we're not allowed in. We're kept in solitary for six weeks anyway.

[Barry Glendenning]

Being in solitary for six weeks during the World cup, it'd be like an extended version of Skies the Box.

[Max]

They just come out and show us the world. Yeah, someone lifted the World Cup. We'll be like, what?

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah, Harry Kane holding the World Cup. And I just go, right, let me back in there and throw away the key, please.

[Max]

Anyway, that'll do for part we won't be laughing when they play this to us. As they're throwing it. As they're throwing it. You joked about it. Here you are, Sunny. Boom.

[Johnny Liu]

Anyway, just on a loop.

[Max]

Exactly. I'll know. This is what they play as we're sitting there, back and forth, me and Barry talking to each other, going, you think this podcast is good? You won't buy Mid July anyway. That'll do for part two. We'll be back in a second.

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[Max]

Welcome to Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Now the families of those who died in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster have said it is a bitter injustice that no police officer will ever be held accountable for. A catalogue of failings set out in the final report of the Police watchdog after a 14 year investigation. We will never get justice, said Charlotte Hennessy, whose father James died at the age of 29. Nobody's ever going to go to prison for killing them, so we'll never get justice. And we knew that. Margaret Aspinall, mother of James, who was 18, another victim, said, it really makes you very, very angry when you think of all those 97 who died, unlawfully killed and yet no one's been held to account. To me that is a disgrace. Some of the officers, including Peter Wright, the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police at the time of the disaster have died since. Margaret Aspinall said, how lucky are they to have died in their own home, not traumatized like we all were. The youngest who died at Hillsborough was 10. How lucky are they to grow old? I am so angry with their response. David Conn is the Guardians Investigations correspondent, has covered this story for many years. Hey, David.

[David Conn]

Morning.

[Max]

I mean, I guess that is the headline, isn't it David, that there will be no, you know, justice for the 97. That is the phrase that we have heard time after time after time and there will be no justice.

[David Conn]

Yeah, that is the, the outcome. That's what this outcome is. I mean what they've done here is it's the police watchdog called the Independent Office for Police Conduct and they have done, as you said, a 14 year investigation. So it started in 2012 after the Hillsborough Independent panel report which completely changed the narrative which beat back that police, the false police stories against the Liverpool supporters that somehow they misbehaved and that was the cause of the disaster which has been comprehensibly demolished. The IOPC has been investigating these areas of police responsibility for the disaster, for the false narrative of the South Yorkshire Police mounted after the disaster to deflect blame, catastrophic failings. I mean this is 97 people killed at an event that the police were responsible for, for managing safety where they were responsible. It's under the noses of the police that 97 people could be killed at an FA cup semi final and then they couldn't accept responsibility in the subsequent. Well, at all. But you know, in the subsequent inquiries that followed and it forced and because of legal failures. See, one of my big points Max, is that the focus is all on the police and it should be, and this report was by the Police Watchdog. But it is the job of the legal system and the courts to actually sift out what's true, to dispense justice. So the failure to actually dispense justice and to leave the families with this like unbelievable, like ludicrous outcome. So the outcome, first of all, it should never ever have taken 36 years. You know, they shouldn't be having to deal with any sort of official process about this terrible disaster and this terrible loss that they suffered 36 years ago, a whole generation ago. I mean, you know, the reporter who we sent from our master office to the press conference yesterday wasn't born when Hillsborough happened. And this is what I've tried to stress in some of my coverage, that it's also failures of the legal system that have failed to hold people accountable, failed to dispense justice, left the families with this really quite ludicrous contradiction that 97 people have been unlawfully killed, but nobody is responsible for the unlawful killing. Right. And the legal failures are the reason why it's also taken so long, because they did a miscarriage of justice at the first inquest in 1991. And when people have grown up with the campaign for justice, as you said, justice for the 96 as it was, justice for 97, as it's been since 2021, what they were campaigning against was that first inquest verdict of accidental death in 1991. And the judges. This is a big thing of mine that I really want people to understand, because it's one of the lesser known parts of the story. They went to the high court in 1993 to try and get that overturned and the judges just dismissed them. So they were forced to fight that first inquest for another 19 years. And that's like taking up everybody's time, taking up everybody's life, traumatizing everyone, keeping this terrible disaster, you know, so central in the lives of everybody. They always said, we can't grieve, we can't move on. And then it took this process in 2012 to finally get the inquest quashed, which I was there that day, which the Judges did in 2012, and I said in one of my pieces, you know, and it just took an hour and a half, and it was like those 19 years of agony had never been caused to the families.

[Max]

Yeah. And. And also, just for those families who, you know, don't have, you know, at the time, are dealing with such grief and such tragedy and don't have recourse to all the things you need to fight this.

[David Conn]

Right.

[Max]

Like. Like, how do you find. Who do you talk to?

[David Conn]

Where's.

[Max]

How do you get the legal processes to understand, you know, you don't want to have to deal with any of that at the start and for so long as well. And their fight has been sort of unbelievably brave and, like, sort of heroic in a way.

[David Conn]

Absolutely. Absolutely, it has. There's another way of looking at that, Max, which is that's how hard it's been for the Hillsborough families. That's how much of a battle.

[Max]

Yeah.

[David Conn]

They've had to fight relentlessly for 36 years and they haven't got justice at the end. And they were denied justice the second inquest verdict. So the inquest was finally quashed, then the new inquest started in 2014. Which was supported by this, the IOPC investigation and it lasted two years. And you'll all remember it finally in April 2016, because it's all taken so long, sometimes the dates run into each other. They finally got this historic verdict from that inquest that the 97 as it is now, were unlawfully killed due to gross negligence manslaughter by the South Yorkshire Police officer in charge, Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield. And they were specifically asked, did any behaviour of the Liverpool supporters contribute to the disaster? And they specifically explicitly said no in the verdict. So therefore there is a legal finding that no behaviour by Liverpool supporters contributed to the disaster. And I was there a lot at the inquest and all the family's lawyers did. Now they had to fight this false narrative again for two years and it was very, very traumatic, the inquest. And do you know what they did to disprove the police case? They just played the video. It was all on television and it was all on film and different cctv. They just played it and everybody could see that nobody was misbehaving, nobody was noticeably drunk, but you are allowed to have a drink before a football match and that the disaster was caused by catastrophic police mismanagement. So that was 27 years from the disaster that they finally got the correct, the truth and the verdict established by the legal system. But then there's been no accountability for that. And that's really what this report said, which is another nine years on. Right. But another way of looking at that question that you asked me is this is a group of people who've had such a terrible battle and had such obstacles put in their way, getting justice from the British legal system and from English police forces. Right. But actually they were incredibly well resourced compared to many, many families who were fighting injustice. There actually was a large number of them. They almost had a whole city behind them. They certainly had the support of Liverpool football. You know, they're part of Liverpool Football Club essentially, which is one of the most high profile and influential and, you know, well known institutions in the country. And yet for families like that, it's been such a struggle and it's 36 years without justice. So think about just a lone family fighting a terrible injustice with no publicity, with no support, with no resources at all. And it makes you fear that there's a huge amount of injustice in the system that isn't being acknowledged.

[Max]

So that 12 officers would have been charged with gross misconduct. So why can't they be in if.

[David Conn]

They'Ve retired the police rules at the time? That they served, and that's always been the rules for them at the time they served. And Duckenfield himself retired on the grounds of ill health, was actually supposed to face disciplinary proceedings in 1991, and he retired on medical grounds and never faced any charges. And neither did the other superintendent who was going to be charged.

[Barry Glendenning]

These police officers who have disgraced themselves, they, they, many of them are senior, they let this happen, then they lied about it. Statements, hundreds of statements were altered. Does the fact that I presume these guys are living in, the ones that are still alive are living in disgrace and are pariahs, is, is that any consolation to the families?

[David Conn]

I don't think we really know how they're living and I don't think the families feel that they are living in disgrace and pariah, you know, and as pariahs, I think some of the comments that family members made about that issue after the report was published was more that they feel like they've had comfortable retirements on full police pensions and that the point about never facing accountability is, is that there hasn't been accountability. I think that some of the families, they said that there is some, you know, they recognize that there is some strength in naming these people now and in saying that some of those people, that 12, there would have been 12 gross misconduct cases. And, you know, it did really hit quite hard that they're saying that the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, Peter Wright, who was a towering figure in the 1980s, I mean, that was a very, very powerful police force that had defeated the miners strike in 84, 85, in a very brutal way. And Peter Wright oversaw the whole campaign and led the whole campaign to deflect responsibility and to mount this false narrative against the Liverpool supporters. So to name him and say that he would have faced a gross misconduct case is quite a strong historic finding for if you like the story of what's happened here. But Peter Wright, I think died in 2011. I mean, he's been passed away 14 years, so there's no actual accountability.

[Max]

David, thanks so much for coming on and thanks for your tireless work on this story as well. Really appreciate it. That'll do for today's pod. Thanks, David. Thank you and thanks everyone else. Cheers, Johnny.

[Barry Glendenning]

Cheers.

[Max]

Thanks, Barry.

[Barry Glendenning]

Thank you.

[Max]

Thank you, Will.

[Johnny Liu]

Cheers, Max.

[Max]

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Clive]

This is the Guardian.

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