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Football Weekly
Afcon special: Morocco’s moment, Nigeria’s surge and more: Football Weekly
00:54:33
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Jonathan Wilson and Osasu Obayiuwana as the Africa Cup of Nations reaches its last four
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- [00:00]
A
This is the Guardian. Here's how to stay alive longer so you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a pinata. Stay alive and switch now at boost mobile. After 30 gigs, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile unlimited plan. Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever. Then stay in bed and let a Boost Mobile exper deliver and set it up for you. Oh actually they will have to get up and open the door. Oh right. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boost mobile.com terms apply.
- [00:48]
B
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. It's an AFCON special. Four teams left. Who's going to win it? Hosts and favorites Morocco made it to the semis with a comfortable win over Cameroon. Brahim Diaz, the star of the tournament so far with another goal. Their squad looks so strong and they have an overhead kick specialist in Ayoub El kabi. Just the 22 so far this tournament. Actually not that great for him. Nigeria have won all their games so far. Victor Osimhen in the goals he scored and set one up in their quarter final with Algeria, which includes the fight over the yogurt. More of that anon. The other semis sees Senegal play Egypt. Mo Salah with the crucial goal in a 32 win over Cote d'.
- [01:20]
C
Ivoire.
- [01:21]
B
Senegal squeezing past Mali in the other. Also, we'll discuss how this tournament's going down across the continent and discuss CAF's unilateral decision to change AFCON to ONCE every four years. We'll do all that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry, Glenn Denning. Welcome.
- [01:38]
C
Hi Max.
- [01:40]
B
And two of our men out in Morocco, Jonathan Wilson. Hello, sir.
- [01:43]
A
Morning. How you doing?
- [01:45]
B
I'm all right and we loved having him on last time. Asasu Aboyuana. Welcome Asasu, how are you?
- [01:51]
C
I'm very well, thank you guys. Nice to see you after a year or more.
- [01:55]
B
Yeah, once a year. It's our annual visit. Sasu, let's start. Should we do the football first and then we'll do the sort of the off the pitch stuff in in part three. Host of favorites Morocco into the semi finals they quarterfinal. They beat Cameroon 2 nil. Pretty dominant in this Asasu. I thought they'd never beat them on AFCON before but they are looking pretty strong now even though they didn't necessarily start the Tournament brilliantly well, you know.
- [02:23]
C
As the late Stephen Keshe, who won the AFCON as a player in 1994 and as head coach in 2013, told me, a tournament is game by game. So you don't think about a trophy when you're playing the opening game. You don't even think about the trophy when you have a semi final to play. Every game is a final in itself. And as you play the tournament, you hope that the team gels more in terms of its technical cohesion, in terms of being able to stick to a tactical plan, in terms of being able to adjust to the opponent, because, you know, a team may have to play a different formation two or three times in a game, depending on what the opponent does in the game. So I think it is just critical that teams have the ability to adjust and to do what is required to win. And I think that the greatest thing about this AFCON, and I've been covering AFCON since 19 as a player, as a player, as a player, as a journalist, I've been covering AFCON since 1998. But as somebody who has been watching the AFCON, I've been watching this. The AFCON since 1980. So I've been watching this tournament for a really long time. And I have to say that the pitches in Morocco have been the best ever, and it is having a huge influence on the quality of football we are seeing. The pitch is the cathedral of the game, and the players need a pitch in pristine condition in order for the ball to obey their instructions. So when the pitch is in good condition and you have quality footballers on it, you are going to see very good football.
- [04:13]
B
Yeah. And look, they have quality footballers, don't they? Wilson, you said in your piece that this is the sort of game where they'd arrived, Morocco.
- [04:19]
A
Yeah. I think you really saw the pressure they were under. I mean, they haven't won the Copper nations for 50 years, which I think they'd only won four knockout games ever in the combinations before this one, which, given, given their status in the world game, given what they've done at the World cup, is a really bizarre situation they're in. I think that pressure's been ramped up by the sheer amount of investment. The stadiums here point about the pitch. He's absolutely right. But it's not just the pitches. The stadiums are all excellent. Obviously, that's looking ahead to the 2030 World cup as well. There's been other infrastructure investment around this tournament and the World cup, and that's all added to the pressure there was protests before the tournament began about that. And that last 16 game where they beat Tanzania 1 nil and were pretty flat. Wally Dru Gregory was booed, which, if you think he's the coach who took them to a semi final of the World Cup. He's now been in charge of 47 games of which they've lost four. And those four are the world cup semi final against France. The World cup third place playoff against Croatia was a dead rubber in qualifying in South Africa. So they basically lost one game in which they weren't massive underdogs and that mattered. And yet he's still getting booed. And I think that's because of a sense that he has become the face of this investment. And people have said, well, hang on, we're spending all this money. Should that not have gone on health care or on flood defences, which has suddenly become a massive issue after the deaths in Safi, or just before Christmas, 37 people died in flooding in Safi. Should the money not have gone there? It's all gone on football, on infrastructure, and the football's really boring. But I think that quarter final, finally you saw them come out their shell. They were playing without the same pressure. And I think on a much more basic level, Ashraf Akimi, who's their most important player, came into the tournament unfit. He's carrying an injury, and I think he's got fitter and fitter as the tournament's gone on and he started to impose himself. And I think that's probably a major factor as well in why they're playing better and better.
- [06:19]
B
And Brahim Diaz, five goals at Sasu. Did you expect him to have such a good tournament?
- [06:24]
C
Oh, for a player of his quality, I would say yes. I think he's gelled with the team well. But funnily enough, even though he's the one who is doing all of the scoring, the player that really impresses me most in the Moroccan team is Ayub El Kabi. And one of the reasons why is because when you know what he has come from to play for Morocco, it's a testimony to his resilience, to his courage to not give up when it seemed that things wouldn't work out for him. I mean, he was in his early 20s, he was still a carpenter when he got the opportunity to play football. So at a professional level. So, I mean, he has really shown huge character and I really respect that. I mean, for the Moroccan side, I mean, I would say this. The last time they got to the final of an afcon was in 2004 in Tunis, and I was with them actually playing.
- [07:30]
B
Was this when you were playing, this when you're playing?
- [07:32]
C
Yes, during my. During my, you know, during my heydays, you know, as top footballer, you know, when I. I was still playing for Real Madrid then. So on that final day, because I was really annoyed because my. My editor at the BBC, where I was still working at the time, he didn't allow me to the final. So what I did instead was to just go to the hotel of the Moroccan side, and I stayed there and waited for them to come back from Rad Stadium after they lost the final. So, yeah, it was good because I was able to see them when they came back. And I had a conversation with Zakibadu, who was the manager at the time. And I actually compare what Walid is going through now to what Zaki Badu was going through over 20 years ago. Zaki Badu is a former African footballer of the Year, 1986. He's one of the legends of African football. He was an incredibly good goalkeeper, and I also think he was an incredibly good tactician as well when he was managing the team then, and the pressure he was under after that tournament to get them to Germany, it was huge. And nobody seemed to care that he had gotten the Atlas Lions to their first final since 1976 in 2004, when he went through the 2006 qualifying series and only failed to qualify on, you know, on the. On the fact that they just didn't have enough goals in their group stages, that was all they really had. It was a tough, tough qualifying series and they got him out. And I felt that was profoundly unfair considering what he had done. And as Jonathan has just pointed out, Walid is facing exactly the same thing if Waleed doesn't win the African cup of Nations. Tariq Sektui, the guy who took Morocco to the under 20 title in Chile, the guy who went with the team to the Arab cup and won there, they're going to give the job to him. They're not going to care that he took them to the semifinal of a World cup, which in any other football environment should bulletproof you for several years. But this is Morocco. It's Morocco. It's their way of doing things. And one more thing before I stop talking for the moment. You know, Nigeria beat Morocco in the final of the women's AFCON in July, last July, and I was here, and I know how bitter they felt losing because Morocco were 2 nil up, you know, after halftime, and they thought Everything had been done and dusted. But they forgot that Nigeria had won this title nine times. They forgot that Nigeria had won that title on South African soil, in South Africa, had won this title on Cameroonian soil in Yangdi. Cameroon is perhaps the toughest place for a Nigerian team to go and win an afcon. Men or women's afcon. And they just felt that because, you know, they were 2 nil up, the game was over. But as we know, it's never over till the fat lady sings. And by the time we won, it was a very, very sober and quiet atmosphere at the Olympic Stadium in Rabat. And they know, I think the Moroccans deep down know, that they're in for a hard time in the semi final because Nigeria has nothing to lose. Absolutely nothing.
- [10:55]
D
And that's all we have time for in this very weekly AFCON special. Just to the game itself. Cameroon nil, morocco2. I thought Brian and Wemo was very unfortunate to not get a penalty when it was still 1 nil. A blatant trip by Adam Messina. Am I alone in thinking that was a fairly scandalous decision or no?
- [11:25]
C
Okay.
- [11:29]
A
I've seen what the Sassy said on Twitter once. Referee hasn't given it. You can convince yourself that Web was looking for it and his movement is to the defender's leg. But if it had been given, nobody would have complained. For me, it's not 100 penalty, but.
- [11:44]
B
It could have been Nigeria, as you say, it's going to be a fascinating semi finalist. Asu, would you say they're the best team in the tournament so far? The Nigerians?
- [11:54]
C
You're having me back on already. I thought you were going to give everybody else. The interesting thing about the Nigerian team, and I want to talk about the manager, Eric Schell, when he was given this job in January last year, I was resolutely against it. I felt that for a team of Nigeria's size and in terms of the players it has and its AFCON pedigree, that a manager who had only started international management in 2023 with Mali, his home country, did not have the pedigree to manage the Super Eagles. That was my opinion. But I have to be fair to say that having seen what he has done at this tournament, having seen his tactical imprint on the team and the way he's managing the players, he's changed my mind. The team is improving and what actually impresses me about him is that the team is not at full strength in this tournament. We are missing two critical players in defense. Benjamin Frederick, who is injured and Ola Aino, who was injured and only just recovered before the Afcon. And I knew there was no way Nottingham Forest was going to let him go. And there was no way the player was going to leave because Nottingham Forest had to bring him back to health after he got injured last September. So he wasn't going to upset his club and go to the afcon. If we had had those two players in the team, I would have told you that Nigeria had balance. Balance that we've never had in many, many years. The problem for the Nigerian team in this tournament is going to be the defending. I mean, Calvin Bassi has been outstanding, but he is alone. He needs to have the support behind to even make him play better. So the challenge for Eric Schell is to see if he can keep defensive mistakes to a minimum. The attack is the best in Africa. Alex Iwobi has been outstanding in midfield. I think this has been his best ever afcon. And his. His play reminds me of his. His uncle, the magician footballer J.J. okocha. I haven't seen him make a wrong pass throughout this tournament. So it, I mean, if Nigeria, if the players can just deal with the hostility because it's going to be tough, there are going to be a lot of lasers being pointed to them from the stands in the game, there's going to be all kinds of noise. So if they can tune it out and just focus on the game, they can win. But if they want to win this game, they will have to put up a majestic performance. If it is a 49, 51 game or 55, 45 game, something will happen and Morocco will win. Don't ask me what I mean by something will happen. I'm not going to answer you, Barry Wilson.
- [14:51]
D
What's changed with Nigeria, who had a, quite frankly, disastrous World cup qualifying campaign not so long ago? They've looked massively impressive, especially going forward, from what I've seen.
- [15:04]
A
I mean, I think Assassin will be better placed to answer what went wrong in the World cup qualifying. The question for me in this tournament is, are they good enough defensively? Now, the Algeria game was not the game I was expecting at all. Algeria were. You got to give Nigeria credit for the way they sort of physically pressed them in the first half, but Algeria made so many mistakes in that first half that they didn't really put Nigeria under the sort of pressure I thought they would. So we saw in the group station, Nigeria didn't keep a clean sheet. The game against Tunisia, when they're three nil up and cruising and suddenly they let in two in the last quarter of an hour and they're really wobbling at the end. The Mozambique game, Mozambique didn't test them at all. That was a very four. It could have been whatever score they, they felt like getting, really. So I'm that balance, that midfield. I, I think weirdly the, the, the key player in there is, is Frank Onyeka because indeed he is the defensive presence in front of the back four. He went off against Algeria. I don't, it's.
- [16:01]
D
I think he's suspended for the semi final.
- [16:04]
C
Yes, he is suspended.
- [16:05]
A
Right, sorry. So. Which is a, a big, a big issue because, you know, he has been crucial in front of the back four. Iobi's passing has been brilliant. Obviously Lookman playing that sort of, sort of as a number 10, but also drifting left his link up with Osaman. For all they had that on pitch spat against Mozambique, that's been brilliant. But it's whether defensively they, they are solid enough against a team who really tests them. Now, as I say, they overwhelmed Algeria. Could they do that to Morocco? Maybe. I don't know. But as to why that is so obviously different to the World cup campaign, I don't know. Sassi is probably better to answer that.
- [16:40]
C
Since you like me to talk some more. I will. The truth is, if you have a World cup qualifying campaign and you have four managers running that campaign, that's a cocktail for disaster. The World cup qualifying campaign started with Jose Pesiro in charge of it, and after the nations cup in Ivory coast, he left. And then you had Finidi George take over. And in between that period, Austin Egwevon, the technical director of the Nigerian Football Federation, took charge of the qualifying campaign for this tournament. So that's three managers I'm mentioning. And then you now add Eric Schell to the mix when he took over in January last year. I mean, that is ridiculous. And I'm fortunate that as a journalist I have access to everybody that matters in Nigerian football. The president, the General secretary, the Minister of Sport. I have off the record conversations with these people and I tell them that this is really stupid because if you had had a proper manager from the beginning of the World cup qualifying campaign, Nigeria would have qualified for the World cup with two games to spare, easily because every single opponent in that group was wholly inferior to Nigeria. But it doesn't matter if you have the best players in the world. If you have a shit administration that will not organize things the way they are supposed to be organized, you don't make sure that Things are done. They are supposed in the way they are supposed to be done. If you don't, then even the neophytes of football will humiliate you. Now that Nigeria have a coach that knows what he is doing, he has a plan for the team, it's unfortunate that this didn't kick in when it really mattered. Because if you talk to Nigerians and say, which one do you prefer, Winning the AFCON now or going to the World cup in June? 90% of us are ready to throw away this AFCON to go to the World Cup. You reap what you sow when you don't plan properly.
- [19:01]
A
I hesitate to bring this up because every time I start to sort of try and steel myself to look into it, the Nigerian bonus row, which seems to me to have been rolling on for 70 or 80 years, probably a hundred, it's like this infinite onion of incompetence and ineptitude and probably corruption that every time you peel back a lane, you think you're getting somewhere. No, there's still a huge onion of kind of nonsense here. I hadn't realized that bonus had to go through like 50 stages of government to be paid, but clearly the players went on strike, refused to train. Two days before that playoff against Diakongo. Again, I hesitate to even ask the question, but have the bonuses been paid? I mean, the government is saying that they're ready to be paid, but have they actually been paid? Assasu?
- [19:51]
C
Well, the Minister of State for Finance made a public statement, and this is the first time I've ever seen the Minister of Finance in Nigeria having to make a public statement with regards to a football issue. The fact is this, from what I've been told from people at the top, that the president of the country approved all the afcon money since November 14th. He actually approved it in cabinet, and so they had five weeks to get the money ready before the tournament. So the question is, why on earth was that money not out before the afcon? There was enough time. From what I'm made to understand, the president is really mad with the Ministry of Finance. This is not a matter for the Sports Ministry now or even the Federation, because they don't control when the money comes out. And you know, I'm a huge critic of those guys. But I have to be fair to them that in regards to this case, this is not their doing. So the Ministry of Finance and the Central bank, they should just get their act together and pay the money, period.
- [20:54]
B
Wilson, what's the fight over the yogurt?
- [20:59]
C
Well.
- [21:01]
A
Algeria I think it's fair to say, disgraced themselves with their conduct generally. At the end of the game, there was some pretty unpleasant scenes in the stands that there's people chucking barriers about the players and coaches and officials surrounded the referee. There was little fracars in the tunnel. But then the yogurt incident occurred in the mix zone. I mean, I'm getting this secondhand. Osasi was closer to the scene, but I didn't know somebody last night who was there who showed me the footage he'd shot. So basically, there had been no unlimited food for journalists in the stadium, which varies from venue to venue. For some reason, the food that people were expecting wasn't there. And so they brought out some yogurts before the press conferences to try and sort of fulfill that need. And then I'm not sure whether the dispute was over the allocation of the yogurt or. Apparently some Moroccans were filming the Algerians eating the yogurt. And this was seen as somehow demeaning. And the Algerians kicked off at the Moroccans for filming them eating yogurt.
- [22:00]
B
And so did they throw the yogurt? I mean. I mean, I imagine you'd throw the yogurt, right.
- [22:05]
A
I think they'd fought so hard to get yoghurt to eat, nobody was gonna throw it. I didn't see any thrown yogurt. But if you've seen the footage, there's some pretty nasty fighting going on in the mix zone. But apparently the yogurt was the trigger. Yeah. So there's a bloke in a sort of. He's wearing like a kagoul in three colors, like a red, white and dark grey kagoul, who suddenly.
- [22:26]
B
Let's be real, let's be real is good fighting attire for yogurt, isn't it? Kagul is the smartest thing to wear.
- [22:34]
A
And he comes from behind and launches a really quite violent kick through the sort of crowd. The front row we're just doing is a bit of shoving, and he comes and really launches a kick, then disappears and comes back for a bit more. So we're laughing. It really shouldn't happen. Algeria have a tendency towards this when they go out of tournaments. I think they were upset by a penalty they weren't given for what they felt was a handball. But it was one of those where a cross was driven from next to no range and it hit the hand, but it was down by the side. So, yeah, they felt the refereeing went against them. And they had. In two of the quarterfinals, the referee was changed at the last minute. This one was. He was. He was kicked out of the tournament for wearing the wrongly branded gear while training or something. It seemed very odd.
- [23:21]
B
Whereas the Morocco right, a Muller corner when he should have been eating Denon because that's it.
- [23:28]
A
Morocco had also protested to get about the referee because I think he was an Egyptian and I couldn't work out what their protest was over. But he got changed at the last minute as well, which again led to all kinds of allegations from Cameroon. And with the Mbuemo penalty not being given, people were sort of seeing significant say I'm not convinced. But anyway, yes, the yogurt triggered a fight in the mixone which is just a marvellous statement. However disgraceful, the conduct of all involved was excellent.
- [23:54]
B
Right, that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll do the other two quarterfinals.
- [24:01]
E
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- [24:06]
C
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- [24:09]
A
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- [24:09]
E
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- [24:12]
A
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- [24:13]
E
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- [24:20]
A
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E
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- [24:40]
B
Welcome to Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly as Egypt beat the Ivory Coast 3 2aMo Salah goal. The difference between these two sides, I mean obviously him leaving Liverpool for AFCON and what was happening with his future was a huge story over here. Osasu, I suspect over there it's more about how he's playing for Egypt, of course.
- [25:02]
C
Mo Salah last played in the AFCON final in Cameroon in 2022. Egypt are the most successful team in the history of the AFCON with seven titles. And for him to put himself in football folklore in Egypt, you just have to win the African cup of Nation. He knows it and he knows that this is probably going to be the last chance he has to do it. The one thing about Egypt, and it's not just about this tournament generally, you know, Jose Mourinho talks about football heritage all the time and I think football heritage heritage at the AFCON plays a huge role in how teams play in the mentality that they bring to competitions. Egypt does not necessarily have the best team at the afcon, but they have the capacity to squeeze water out of a stone in games. And you still have players like Mahmou, like Salah, Like Treze Gay, these players are capable of getting results even when the football is rubbish, I can tell you. Football, Egypt can play rubbish football and win an afcon. They have the capacity for that. And that is why one can't really say much about the semi finals coming up because they can go either way. I have no idea who is going to be in that final. No idea.
- [26:37]
B
And are they playing rubbish football at the moment, Will?
- [26:42]
A
No, I mean they didn't have a great group stage, I think it's fair to say. And they were taken to extra time by Benin in the last 16. But that game against Cote d', Ivoire, it was the first time that I think they looked like the side that they were between 2006 and 2010 when he won three in a row. And of course Hassan, Hassan the coach was, I mean he barely played because he was 38, I think, or 39 in 2006. He was a squad captain but essentially an honorific role. But he does seem to reinvoke some of that spirit. So Egyptian football, they had those three wins in the road. Then they didn't qualify for the next three tournaments which clearly was related to all the political turmoil as Mubarak fell and Morsi and ncc. So they've been struggling to get back to that level, which seems strange to say when they have been in two finals since 2017. By 2021 tournament played in 2022, but they only actually won one knockout game in those two tournaments put together they would play. You know, Asasi says their capacity to get through games while playing horrendous football is extraordinary here. I mean they only had 29 possession but they, they played very good counter attacking football. You know, they, they clearly had a plan. It worked exceptionally well. I think it's interesting that they changed shape yet again. So they'd, they'd start with a sort of 4, 3, 3. They went to a back three. Then they're playing actually not a dissimilar formation to Nigeria playing with sort of 4, 3, 1, 2. And it is interesting that two of the semifinals are playing with the front two. That they sort of followed the Leeds model, that maybe that is coming back. But it's sort of, it's almost like Hasamasan's gone back to basics of right. Our two best players are Mahmouch and Salah. Let's just put them together. And Asher playing behind them I think played very well. Their pressing was, I mean it was sparing but it was really targeted in that quarter final. The first goal Comes directly from Kessier being dispossessed. The second goal, Mahmouche wins the ball back and wins a corner. So both the first two goals are direct and indirect result depressing. The third goal is a counter attack. So it's still that sort of. They're not dominating games, they're not being the protagonist. It felt a much more self confident display than we've seen. If you'd asked me after the last 16, I'd have been very much, yes. This is the same old Egypt being rubbish and getting through. I think that quarterfinal, they actually did play really well and they have a great record. I mean, again, Assassi talks about heritage. They have an exceptional record against Cote d' Ivoire in Copse nations. They beat them in the final in 2006. But the game that stands out is the semi final in 2008 in Kumasi when they beat him 4 1. When it was 3 1. In this game, you're sort of thinking, oh, this could easily be 4:1. It could be a repeat of that. As it was, Cote d' Ivoire got one back. But I actually think apart from the set plays, they really struggled with Ivorian set plays. Apart from that, I thought he was significantly the better side.
- [29:33]
B
They'll play Senegal in the semi final. He beat Mali 1 nil. What did you make of that win, Osasu?
- [29:38]
C
Well, Mali, I actually have a soft spot for Mali. I think they have a lot of talent. But the thing is, talent can only take you so far when you have a team with superior organization and with more experience. And I think that was just the key, you know, in certain games, the attention to the minute details, to the things that you ordinarily will ignore would determine whether you, you win a game or not. And that sums up the way that game went, in my opinion.
- [30:13]
D
I felt a bit sorry for the Mali keeper in this game because he was at fault for the only goal of the game. A goal started and finished by Ilman In Jai. He let the across squirm under his body and in Jai had made a a long busting run and was able to capital on that mistake. Jugu Diara is the keeper's name. But then he went on to make some incredible saves. I was game. Senegal deserved to win and Mali had ease. Basuma sent off as well, rather stupidly in the first half. So that pretty much torpedoed any chance they had it getting back in the game. But yeah, to be the keeper who's at fault for the goal and then to more or less Single handedly keep your, your team in the game was. Yeah, you feel for him.
- [31:10]
A
Jiggy Jar had A great last 16 against Tunisia as well. He was the hero of that penalty shootout. So yeah, Barry's absolutely right. But Marley, you know, they've had players sent off in the last three games. Their discipline has been a big problem. And Basema, yeah, two yellows, absolutely no sympathy with him. The second one just totally needless. Bad foul on the halfway line. So they, they had drawn four out of four to get to that stage. I was a bit disappointed with Senegal. I don't think they've got the balance that midfield right yet. They've got so many options. It's. It seems like that's almost over complicated. So playing Adrisigay Papay and Habib Jara, I don't know, it just doesn't quite seem to, to, to have to give them the, the, the creativity they need. It's difficult to. I mean Mali are so good at playing with 10. The fact they didn't create chances, they're not the first team to do that. And I guess if you're being sympathetic to Senegal you might say, well they're 10 up, they're playing 10. They didn't need to do anything else. But I was a bit frustrated that they didn't create more.
- [32:11]
D
These two countries are neighboring and used to be the same country briefly back in the 50s, late 50s, early 60s, I think. Are relations between them cordial or extremely unfriendly?
- [32:26]
C
You know, there's a lot of commonality in that area. Ivory Coast, Burkina Faso, Mali. Like if you hear somebody being called Diallo, you don't know which country it comes from. It could come from any of those four countries because you know the language and things are so similar. I don't think there's really an issue between them. I think because there's so much commonality that is even difficult to tell the difference between them. So rivalry in terms of nationality? No, I think they're actually quite integrated. But of course when there are football games, everyone wants their country to win. Of course.
- [33:07]
B
Yeah, of course. So Senegal, Egypt then. I mean I look in 2022 in the final, it felt like mane versus salah, but I just wonder if both those, if you know what, Mane scored the winning penalty Salah didn't get to take there. They were both playing for Liverpool. It is slightly different now, I'd say Wilson, of course.
- [33:25]
A
A month after that they had the World cup qualifying playoff where exactly the same thing happened. Except Salah did take his penalty and missed it. And they still scored the. The winning penalty. No, I think it is still. Salah gets, man. It's a. Yeah, they are beginning to enter their dotage. I mean, Mane particularly, it might be the last sort of major meeting or major confrontation between the two, but they are still. Maybe that's not quite fair. Senegal. But they are still the 2 on a global level, the two standout players. Certainly think when I'm just trying to persuade people to give me work, I will be pitching this as Mane versus Salah. Yeah. And I think definitely there is. From. From Salah's point of view, there is a sense that he wants to put that right. His relationship with Maneu was never that cordial at Liverpool and I think he would very much like to redress the balance after what happened in 2022.
- [34:14]
B
Should take the first penalty, shouldn't he?
- [34:17]
C
No, I was just going to say in. I think in terms of overall team strength, I think Senegal, the edge there. I think they have more balance. But Salah can decide a game on his own. Maush could do the same. And in games like this, as I said, you know, the difference is always in the minute details. It's going to be there. There's hardly going to be any gap in between them. And, you know, Jonathan has already just talked about all the games they've played against each other, the final World cup playoff. So it's just going to be really, really tight.
- [34:57]
B
Yeah, I know. Assassin, you said you. You didn't want. You couldn't pick the finalists or the winner, but could you just have a stab at it for us, if the.
- [35:05]
C
Refereeing is fair, we. We could actually have a Nigeria Senegal final. We could.
- [35:11]
A
Okay, well, Morocco, Senegal. Sorry.
- [35:15]
B
Okay. Outside of that, I mean, what.
- [35:17]
A
What.
- [35:17]
B
One of the one story I saw that was sort of fascinating was the Gabon story for the listeners because there's a lot of football happening in the UK and around Europe. It's quite hard. Some listeners will be listening to this as their kind of first entry into afcon, you know, this time around. And we'll talk about the scheduling in a minute. But like Gabon getting suspended by Gabon, like the sports.
- [35:37]
D
The.
- [35:37]
B
The sports minister come out, sort of suspend the team. Is it like Keir Starmer saying England, were you. You stunk out the group stage in the World cup, you no longer exist. But is that what happened?
- [35:48]
A
Yeah. It's not uncommon for African sports ministries to disband the national team. And normally FIFA intervenes and says, you can't do this. I mean, Nigeria Themselves have it in living memory. But what takes us to a new level is they seem to have permanently suspended Akwele and Aubameyang, who are the two oldest players in the team. But also Thierry Muyuma, the coach. He appears to have unilaterally signed a kit deal with his own kit people. And so the kit they were wearing was not up to FIFA standards, which led to them having to cancel some pre tournament friendlies. So they've taken this to. I thought I'd seen this story before. I was like, sports businessman seems so. Then you go into the deals, it's like, no, no, this is a whole new level. This is spectacular. And yeah, you know, we had years of very rightly being very critical of the Bongo government in Gabon. This didn't happen under the Bongo regime. Many terrible things did. But we never disbanded the national team under the Bongos.
- [36:47]
B
Right. Cube fact says, based on performances at afcon, how do you rate the chances of the qualified African teams for the World Cup? You mentioned South Africa. They're saying that they don't really have much chance, but it's quite. I suppose it's interesting when there's a World cup on the horizon. What, you know, watching those sides perform in this tournament.
- [37:05]
C
Well, we have at least nine African teams at the tournament, maybe 10 depending Senegal and Egypt. I have a lot of confidence in them that if they can just set their store right at the tournament, they have a chance to go beyond the group stages and then we'll see what they can do. Cape Verde, funnily enough, it's a team that I wouldn't recommend anyone take slightly. They may not have the big players, but they are really well organized. And the way they have grown over the last decade has shown organization and purpose from the federation. What I saw of them, although they didn't qualify for this afcon, what they did at the last AFCON in Cote d' Ivoire really impressed me in terms of their cohesion and technical ability. So it would be really, really unwise for any opponent to disregard them. Jonathan, you can talk about the other ones.
- [38:03]
A
Thank you. I mean, South Africa, we see their technical quality, but I mean, I try to find a different way of saying this because the criticism of South African football, the cliche about South African football, the stereotype of South African football is very pretty, but optically physical. And then you see it in action. It's just true. It's still true that you look at people like Mofike, Annapolis, and they're lovely footballers, but they're just not very big and they will get bullied. So that I think is a big problem for them. Tunisia, they always play with fear. It's so frustrating. Every now and again they forget themselves and play for five minutes. You think, oh God, this is a great side. But they're so petrified to let themselves play in an open contest that they, and this has been true for 20 years, maybe longer, they've sacked their coach, Samitra Velsi, and that's very unfair.
- [38:48]
C
I think it's unfair for him to be fired. Sorry Jonathan, sorry for interrupting you. I just find it really unfair that a federation will not allow a coach that has qualified a team for a World cup to go to a World cup simply because the team didn't do well at an afcon. I think that's fundamentally wrong.
- [39:06]
A
But it is one of the problems when the couple nations falls in the same year as the World Cup. And this is one of the reasons why caf changed it in 2013 to get it into the odd numbered years that Trebelsi did really well in qualifying for the World Cup. Then they had a bad Arab Cup. They went out in the group stage of Arab cup in December and then this tournament they were okay. They ran into Mali, they should have won that game. But they score late, they late in the late equalizer, losing penalties and suddenly he's gone and they're starting again, what, five months before the World cup starts, which just isn't healthy. I mean, I'll be interested to see what happens with Algeria with Petkovic because there's a lot of frustration about how they played against Nigeria. And I think up until the last 16, Algeria had probably been the, the most complete side in the tournament. They looked defensively very strong. They, they had balance going forward. They got a bit of a problem that Riyad Mahrez is still their most creative player, but is is very slow and he seemed to got around that by using Ayat Nui and Jaibi on the left. So basically Mahrez stands still on the left. On the right, the left hand side just runs up and down constantly and somehow they found the balance. But then they were so flat against Nigeria. But I mean there's pressure on, on Pekovich now. Whether he, he survives or not, I don't know. Is there anybody else I haven't mentioned yet? Well, DL Congo, who, I mean they have the appeal, Nigeria's appeal. They're clearly a really good side. I think at the back and three midfield they're really good. Johan Whissa, because of his Knee injury. He wasn't fit enough to leave Newcastle for this tournament. I think they lost a lot of firepower because of that and a lot of their games followed a similar pattern of they were dominant 3 midfield, but just didn't have a cutting edge with him back. I think they, they're a. They're a threat, definitely.
- [40:42]
B
All right, that'll do for part two. Part three we'll talk about infrastructure, schedule changes and CAF decision to make AFCON once every four years. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Let's talk about the schedule then. This was originally planned for the summer to reduce scheduling conflicts with European clubs and competitions. It was changed to December to make room for the club World cup in the summer. Justification of this decision? It was made to avoid a clash with European leagues and their winter breaks and avoid two final group games in the Champions League. I saw you tweeting Asasu about the the cold and the rain. You hated how cold and rainy it was for afcon, but how have you found it or what have you made of the scheduling?
- [41:30]
C
Well, if you've been reading my tweets, and you know that I'm profoundly unhappy with, with the situation regarding the AFCON. The AFCON started in 1957. It's 68 or 69 years old. We have our own football heritage, our customs, our traditions, and it is a biennial tournament and we need to respect that. It has so many good implications. Having this tournament every two years, it means one, there is consistent competition in the continent for all the national teams. It means that football infrastructure has to be continually developed. And if you have this tournament every four years, all those things will die. I actually find it quite bizarre that Patrice Mosepe is trying to negotiate an eight year, $1 billion deal for CAF, in which I understand IMG is the preferred bidder. But IMG, or whoever is going to provide the $1 billion guarantee for eight years will not be ready to pay $1 billion if you reduce the frequency of the tournament to every four years. Because the, the. The. Look, as all of you know, the UEFA Champions League is the cash cow of UEFA, not the European Championship is just a minor addition, a minor financial addition, which brings some extra money, which is good. But the Champions League is the cash cow for African football. The AFCON is the bread and butter of the financial ecosystem of caf. So if you have it every four years, when you don't have an African Champions League that has the financial viability of a UEFA Champions League, that is going to be disastrous if it's the.
- [43:19]
B
Cash cow for caf. Why are CAF making it every four years?
- [43:23]
C
Well, this is the million dollar question we are all asking. Well, I know the answer to it. And Gianni Infantino is primarily responsible for this decision. As far back as February 2020 here in Morocco, he had a meeting with the then president of caf, Ahmad Ahmad and his executive committee here in Morocco in Rabat. And during that meeting, Gianni Infantino actually used some words which were quite disrespectful to African football because he described the biennial Afcon as being useless and that it made sense for Africa to go four years. If Issa Hayatu had been president and he had said that, Issahayatu would have told Infantino to leave the meeting straight away, or he would have made him apologize for such a disrespectful remark. But they all kept quiet about it. So this has been Gianni Infantino's project for the last five years. He hasn't hidden it that he doesn't believe in a biennial Afcon. And so this is wholly his doing. It's wholly his doing, sure.
- [44:32]
B
And is it really unpopular across the confidant? Because could African football revolt against Motsepe and therefore against Gianni or not possible?
- [44:41]
C
I mean, I was speaking to a sports minister about this decision over the weekend, and he told me that it's a nonsense. And one thing people need to appreciate is that the African cup of nations is not even a matter for CAF alone. This is a matter of African heritage. And this matter will be discussed by the Sports Commission of the African Union, it will be discussed by national governments, and they are going to make it quite clear to MOSEPE that this is not a decision he can take alone. In actual fact, he took this decision or he announced this decision without putting it through the proper statutory channels. First of all, you have to take it to the executive committee for them to discuss. And if the executive committee agree in principle, you have to table it before the General assembly, which is the supreme body of caf to discuss, and then they have to approve it.
- [45:39]
B
Wilson?
- [45:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, I'm entirely with Assassi there, I think. I mean, the reason why I'm very skeptical there will be a significant backlash against this is that what Infantino has is he has access to lots of FIFA committees which are very well remunerated, and the people he appoints to those committees are likely to do what he would like them to do. And if the cost of that is African football, I'm not sure how many of those delegates are prepared to put the cause of African football above themselves. Hayati, for all his faults, he was always adamant that African football had to fight for itself and look after itself. And that's why you have this biennial tournament. If it is in 28, 32, 36, I presume the plan is to have it in the European summer to avoid a clash with the European leagues, with the Champions League. But there are two immediate problems with that. So one is it will then run concurrently with the Euros and the Copa America, which will reduce visibility, which is not good for African football. People in Africa won't care about that. They'll watch the Copa nations, obviously. But one of the joys of this cup of nations is how many people you see from all over the world who come to this tournament. It's a real showcase. Quite apart from the fact it is the great money maker for caf, it is a great showcase for African football. I got the train down from Fez the other day. I would say half of people in my carriage were Europeans who come to watch the tournament, which is a great thing. The concerns of Europeans who want to watch it are very low on the list of priorities, but that exposure is useful. The other thing is, if you're having this June, July every year, can you ever host it again on the west side of the continent? And the answer to that is no, because that's when the rainy season is, which is why they had to move the one in Cote d', Ivoire, the one in Cameroon for last two. So it's still going to have to be in January, February, or possibly this December. January date works. I. I don't know. I mean, maybe. Maybe this is the solution with. With the Champions League moving. Maybe. Maybe having it over over the new year period. Maybe that does work. I know Asasi doesn't like the cold in North Africa at this time of year, but. But I don't particularly like the heat and humidity in West Africa this time of year either. So that cuts both ways. But, yeah, it just seems to me a decision that is bad for African football on all kinds of levels. It's good for UEFA and it's good for FIFA. And essentially this has been taken so that they can fit in the Club World Cup. I mean, that's why it's in this slot. They agree. Ahmed. Ahmed said, yes, we will move it to the European summer so we don't cause disruption to the European club season. And having agreed to do that, what does FIFA do? It invents a new tournament in that slot, which means the couple nations then has to scrabble around to find this little window over Christmas when players were released five days before the tournament.
- [48:30]
C
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
- [48:33]
A
The statutory period of time is two weeks, but it's, oh, it's only Africa. It doesn't matter. It's scandalous.
- [48:40]
B
And actually, that's interesting about Africa. Football has to fight for itself. I mean, if everybody. Sport has to do that, but. And Africa is too big to. To answer the question, you know, what is the state of football in Africa like? But because there is so much more football everywhere, you know, it will have to fight even harder. Right.
- [49:00]
C
You know, Jenny Infantino has. He claims he loves African football so much, but his actions don't show that he loves it. Because the only reason why they are expanding the Club World cup is because FIFA wants to make more money and they want to be able to challenge UEFA financially. That's the only way they can. And that's why they are developing the tournament. As Jonathan pointed out, the agreement was that the Afcon will be in the summer, and that was why it was played in that slot in Egypt. And it was a good tournament. We all enjoyed it. But even at that, I still say that there is no recognition from FIFA that Africa has the most climatically diverse conditions in the world. You can't stage an AFCON in June and July all over Africa. You can't. You can do it in the north. If you try to do that in South Africa, that would be in the winter. And I was at the World cup in 2010 in South Africa, it was so cold at night, when we tried to go out of the press room to go to the porter cabins where the toilets were, it was hell because it was that cold outside. So you can't have it in June and July in Southern Africa, in the west of the continent, it's the rainy season you don't want to be having. Even if you get the pitches in good condition to deal with the rain, you have to think of the infrastructure around the tournament, access to the stadiums, and leaving it will be a nightmare. And so the real solution for the African combination is to say, listen, if you're hosting it in Sub Saharan Africa, do it in January to March. If you are having it in North Africa, do it in June and July and you play the games in the evenings because obviously in the middle of the day, it's really hot. And if you have the organization to ensure you decide on these hosts four to five years in advance, so that the calendar, the FIFA calendar can be ordered to reflect these things I don't see what the problem is. But if there's no will or if there's no respect from Infantino for the traditions and the heritage of African football, then of course he doesn't care. As Jonathan will remember, the club World cup started before the end of the AFCON in Cameroon. That was so disrespectful. What were you expecting Egypt to do with so many players playing for Ali, then thinking of, oh, what are we going to do when we have to go and play for our club when the African cup of nations was yet to finish? So these are the kinds of things that have been going on which I find very, very annoying and really disrespectful.
- [51:51]
B
But is there a groundswell of, you know, voices that will protest about this? Because, like a lot of things that FIFA do, you just sort of think most fans will be like, ah, this is annoying, but it's, you know, what can you do?
- [52:05]
C
I mean, let me speak from a personal perspective. There is, for me, there's no neutrality on this matter. As a journalist, sure, I have no, I have no neutrality. This is about the, the future of African football, which I've given my life to for nearly 40 years. So for me, this is a life and death issue for us, so we have to fight it. And as I said, I've spoken to FA presidents and ministers behind. There's a lot of unhappiness about this decision. There is.
- [52:35]
B
Patrick Mosepe did say, historically, AFCON was the prime resource for us. Now we'll get financial resources every year. This is with the launch of a new annual African Nations League. It's an exciting new structure which will contribute to sustainable financial independence and ensure more synchronization with the FIFA calendar. I think we have your. Your live reaction to that Assassin.
- [52:59]
C
That's a joke. Yes, a complete and utter joke. Look, when they tried to launch the African Super League two years ago in Arusha, Tanzania, they told us that they would raise $200 million a year for 10 years. That's 2 billion. And we told them, if you can't get that from the African cup of nations, which is your blue ribbon tournament, how are you going to get that from a tournament you were just starting? Of course we knew it was utter and complete bollocks that this was not going to work. And of course, after they did the first one, they are quiet about it.
- [53:35]
A
I mean, so quiet, they've literally just deleted it from a website. This annual tournament was played once. It was meant to be 24 teams. It started out with six, and then we've never heard of it since. And now everybody seems to be pretending it never happened at all.
- [53:49]
C
Yeah, that's what happens when you give Italians who have no experience of African football the job to design a competition for Africa to tell Africa what they think. You see, I'm not going to make any bones about this. We are suffering a form of neocolonialism in African football. And I find it really insulting and really disrespectful that this new colonialism is going on. And some of us who care about African football will not accept it. And we are going to fight it because we have our own customs, our own traditions, our own needs. And we have to address those needs within our own continent. What Europe needs is different from what Africa needs, is different from what South America needs is different from what what Central and North America needs. So what Europe needs cannot be what determines what world football needs. I'm sorry.
- [54:53]
B
No, don't be sorry. And we should all join the fight with you. Thank you, Assasu. That'll do for today. We will hopefully catch up after the semis, after the final, maybe at the World cup as well. So. So more than just once a year.
- [55:05]
A
If.
- [55:05]
B
If you'll come back.
- [55:06]
A
Of course.
- [55:07]
B
Thanks, Assasu. Thanks for your time.
- [55:10]
C
You're welcome, Max. Anytime. It's great to be with you guys all the time.
- [55:13]
B
Thank you, Wilson.
- [55:15]
A
Cheers. Thank you.
- [55:16]
B
Thanks, Baz.
- [55:17]
D
Yep, still here.
- [55:18]
B
Football Weekly is produced by Sardis Gray with Joel Grove, and our executive producer is Danielle Stevens. We'll be back on Thursday.
- [55:35]
E
This is the Guardian.