Arsenal back in Champions League final during a week to savour: Football Weekly

Summary

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Football Weekly: Arsenal Back in the Champions League Final & a Week to Savour

Date: May 6, 2026
Host: Max Rushden
Panel: Barry Glendenning, Nicky Bandini, Paul Watson, Tayo Papula (Part 1), Ewan Murray (Part 3)

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Episode Overview

This episode celebrates Arsenal reaching their first Champions League final in 20 years after a nerveless performance against Athletic. The panel dissects the match atmosphere, the fans' evolving dynamic, standout individual performances, and wider implications for the club. The episode also covers a dramatic fixture between Everton and Manchester City that impacts the title race, Forest securing a vital win over Chelsea, a detailed “Fitba’ Corner” with Ewan Murray on Hearts’ sensational Scottish Premiership title bid, and the eccentricities of the Liechtenstein Cup. The usual laughter, warmth, and expert banter run throughout.

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Arsenal in the Champions League Final: Performance and Atmosphere

[00:39–14:44]

Key Points

• Atmosphere at the Emirates:

  • Arsenal fans created an electric atmosphere rarely seen before, which positively influenced the team’s composure and confidence.
  • Previous tension and criticism over fans’ nervousness seemed to be replaced by optimism and unity.
  • “I think a dam has slightly broken in the last couple of days in terms of atmosphere and optimism, and the end of the season feels like it’s in sight.” — Tayo Papula [05:19]

• Comparisons with the Past:

  • Memories of the 2009 Ronaldo semi-final heartbreak lingered in the fanbase, making the night’s achievement sweeter.
  • Nicky Bandini observed that while fans can set the stage, ultimately it’s the players’ composure and quality under pressure that makes the difference.

• Credit to Arteta and Squad:

  • Many note how Arteta’s squad have learned to absorb pressure without showing nerves, despite “bottler” criticisms.
  • Arsenal’s progression is framed within a favorable draw but acknowledged as a “huge achievement.”

• Yokohama Jochérez’s Transformation:

  • Once struggling for confidence and impact, Jochérez’s recent form has been a revelation, with his hold-up play and selfless movement helping create Saka’s crucial goal.
  • “He looks like a whole different person… It suddenly feels like something’s clicked in him.” — Paul Watson [08:35]
  • Tayo Papula praised Jochérez’s ability to “run the channels, incredible hold-up play, [and] found a groove now.”

• Saka’s Decisiveness:

  • Bukayo Saka’s winning goal wasn’t flashy, but his patience and intelligence—contrasted with alternatives like Madueke—were praised.
  • “He’s always our star boy… for a 24-year-old, he’s really actually quite patient.” — Nicky Bandini [14:44]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “It felt like the biggest night at the stadium.” — Tayo Papula [02:14]
• “It’s not the atmosphere that wins the game... you have to have the performance to match it.” — Nicky Bandini [03:06]
• “There was a massive, massive cheer [for five minutes added].” — Tayo Papula [05:37]

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Managing Pressure and Game Analysis

[16:42–24:18]

• Athletic’s Ineffectiveness:

  • Their attacking stars—Alvarez, Griezmann, Lookman—were all nullified by Arsenal’s structure.
  • Diego Simeone’s radical substitutions (removing both Griezmann and Alvarez) were seen as a nod of defeat.

• Fan Psychology:

  • Griezmann’s exit saw collective relief in the stands due to his history of haunting Arsenal.
    • “At least as a fan, the second he goes off, you’re like, oh, thank God. Because you’re waiting for him to do it again.” — Nicky Bandini [21:22]
  • Substitutions and sideline antics became a sideshow, with Arteta and Simeone both “jack in the boxes.”

• Arsenal’s Underdog Narrative:

  • Despite leading the Premier League and being unbeaten in the UCL, Arsenal are likely to be labeled “underdogs” in the final—per both the panel and media.

• Arteta’s Sideline Antics:

  • Barry Glendenning voiced frustration at Arteta’s increasingly eccentric touchline behaviour.
    • “Arteta’s behavior on the touchline is disgraceful… the sooner the better some fullback or winger absolutely cleans him out… the better.” — Barry Glendenning [23:13]

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Premier League Title Race Swings: Everton 3-3 Manchester City

[26:28–32:45]

Match Recap

• Late Drama:

  • City rescued a point at the death (thanks to Doku), theoretically keeping the title race alive, but the mood was bitter for both sides.
  • The panel compared exhausted players’ reactions to “everyone on their knees as if they’d been relegated.”

• Significance:

  • Max Rushden: “Without that [Doku goal] it is completely done. I mean, it’s sort of done, but it’s not done done.”
  • Barry Glendenning: “I’ll be astonished if Arsenal don’t win the title at this stage. They could have scarcely hand-picked three easier fixtures.”

• Key Moments:

  • Mark Gay’s error for Everton’s equalizer highlighted nerves among City’s usually reliable defenders.
  • Fans’ early exits and subsequent re-entries after a sudden City goal became a comedic motif.

Notable Quotes

• “I might get lucky with a punch… but I’m going to lose if I’m fighting against someone who’s better at fighting than me.” — Barry Glendenning [29:08]
• “It just takes a weird thing to happen in a football game for things to change.” — Nicky Bandini [30:30]

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Chelsea’s Collapse, Forest’s Upswing

[34:50–41:44]

Forest 3–1 Chelsea

• Forest’s Gamble:

  • Despite making eight changes before an important Europa semi-final, Forest comprehensively beat a disheveled Chelsea side.
  • “I suppose we forgot to factor in they were playing Chelsea who are an absolute shambles.” — Barry Glendenning [35:40]

• Chelsea in Crisis:

  • Five consecutive league defeats, no wins, and an identity crisis under the ownership—“a collection of freelancers.”
  • The only “positive” was Derry’s injury not being as bad as feared.

• Forest Likely Safe:

  • “They only need one probably, to be absolutely safe.” — Barry Glendenning [39:59]

• Chelsea’s Future:

  • Massive financial repercussions expected if they miss European qualification.

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Notable Player and Selection Debates

[41:49–roundup]

• Cole Palmer’s Struggles:

  • Palmer’s dwindling form may cost him a place in England’s World Cup squad, particularly as Morgan Gibbs-White outshines him.
    • “He’s had a terrible season. He wasn’t good in this game.” — Barry Glendenning [41:14]

• Forest’s Standout Performers:

  • Praise for Jesse Derry and Zach Abbott, among other Forest “finds.”

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Fitba’ Corner: Hearts Disrupt Old Firm Monopoly

[43:50–59:15]

Scottish Premiership Shock

• Hearts’ Dream Run:

  • Ewan Murray, a lifelong Hearts fan, explains how his team leads Celtic by three points with three games left.
  • Emotional weight of the moment is evident:
    • “It’s a major deal…so, yes, the next week and a half is going to be exciting, enthralling, very nervy.” [44:40]
  • Past heartbreaks make current optimism fragile (references to near-misses in 1986 and 1965).

• Historical Context:

  • The “monotony” of Old Firm dominance has been broken and interest in Scottish football is revived.

• Hearts’ Transformation:

  • Tony Bloom’s (Brighton’s owner) investment, access to analytics via Jamestown, and smart recruitment have elevated Hearts.
  • “Braga…was in the Norwegian 2nd Division… bought him for half a million quid and they’re not paying him a lot of money.” — Ewan Murray [55:05]
  • Emphasis on retaining a Scottish core has been debated, with Ewan and Ali McCoist agreeing it preserves both competitiveness and identity.

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Liechtenstein Cup: FC Vaduz Extend World Record

[60:32–62:10]

• FC Vaduz win their 52nd Liechtenstein Cup, a world record and 12th in a row.
• Vaduz are the only professional club in the country; their “dominance” is a local curiosity but earns them a spot in Europe every year.
  • “They almost lost… but this year it was a lot more dramatic than usual. They only won 4–3.” — Paul Watson [60:45]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s not the atmosphere that wins the game… you have to have the performance to match it.” — Nicky Bandini [03:06]
• “Atmosphere and optimism, the end of the season feels like it’s in sight.” — Tayo Papula [05:37]
• “He looks like a whole different person.” — Paul Watson on Jochérez [08:35]
• “Arteta’s behavior on the touchline is disgraceful.” — Barry Glendenning [23:13]
• “I’d give them a definite. Definitely give them a chance. Of course they have a chance. They’re in the final.” — Barry Glendenning [21:49]
• “The sooner the better… some winger absolutely cleans him out [Arteta] accidentally in inverted commas… the better.” — Barry Glendenning [23:13]
• Ewan Murray: “It has generated a level of interest and intrigue and just that competition, that element of unknown that has been so badly needed and it’s been fantastic for the game…” [50:48]
• “I can’t see them finishing sixth. If they don’t qualify for the Champions League, there’ll be serious financial repercussions down the line.” — Barry Glendenning on Chelsea [39:59]
• On Chelsea: “They just seem like a collection of freelancers playing together.” — Paul Watson [38:27]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:39 – Arsenal’s Champions League semi-final win: atmosphere, performance breakdown, and Arteta effect
• 08:05 – Yokohama Jochérez’s transformation and role in the team
• 14:17 – Saka’s composure and leadership
• 21:22 – Fan psychology regarding Griezmann
• 23:13 – Arteta and Simeone’s touchline antics debate
• 26:28 – Everton v Man City: the title race, drama, and analysis
• 34:50 – Forest’s crucial win over Chelsea and implications for both
• 41:44 – Forest’s safety, Chelsea woes, and England squad chat
• 43:50 – Hearts break the Old Firm stranglehold: Scottish title race special
• 60:32 – FC Vaduz and the Liechtenstein Cup

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Conclusion

A lively episode brimming with celebration, analysis, and humor. Arsenal enjoy a long-awaited European breakthrough, the panel dissects the ingredients behind recent successes, and football’s infinite capacity for drama is showcased by both the Premier League and a thrilling Scottish title race. Meanwhile, the quirks of European football are celebrated with tales from Liechtenstein. Whether you’re red, blue, or neutral, this week’s Football Weekly captures the season’s spring crescendo and the joy of dreaming big.

Transcript

[Barry Glendenning]

This is the Guardian.

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[Paul Watson]

Foreign.

[Max Rushden]

Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Arsenal reached the Champions League final for the first time in 20 years. They did enough against Athletic Bukayo Saka with a decisive goal. They defended like we know they can defend, limiting Athletic to virtually nothing. Joker as led the line brilliantly and it perhaps wasn't as nerve wracking as it should have been. The second great result for the Gunners after Manchester City dropped two points at Everton. It could have been worse for City. Jeremy Doku with a glorious curler to rescue a point and keep the title race alive. Just our City, the Bottlers after all. Meanwhile, after we said Forest needed to play their strongest side against Chelsea, they made eight changes and won Chelsea's sixth league defeat in a row. And then to the jazz bar. It's been far too long for a proper Fitbar corner. Ewan Murray joins us as the title race goes from three to a two horse race with Hartz leading the way. There's big news from the Liechtenstein Cup. Your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning. Welcome.

[Barry Glendenning]

Hi, Max.

[Max Rushden]

Hello. Nicky Bandini.

[Nicky Bandini]

Morning.

[Max Rushden]

Mention of the Liechtenstein cup will mean some listeners will already know that from the sweeper pod. Paul Watson is on today. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Watson]

Hi, Max.

[Max Rushden]

And joining us for part one, producer Ty. Anyone who listens to the end of these podcasts may occasionally hear. Today's Football Weekly was produced by Taya Papula, but he's also co host of the Tuesday Club, the Alan Davis Arsenal Podcast. If that's not fair on you, Tyo.

[Tayo Papula]

Absolutely.

[Max Rushden]

And you were there last night?

[Tayo Papula]

I was there last night, yeah. Thank you for having me.

[Max Rushden]

It's a pleasure. It's been a very good two days to be an Arsenal fan. Nikki is smiling from ear to ear. Tyo, how was it at the Emirates last night?

[Tayo Papula]

From start to finish, it was brilliant. From the atmosphere before the game outside the ground to the whole buildup, it felt like a special night. It felt like the biggest night at the stadium. You have to worry about things like that because I think a few Arsenal fans especially, especially around my way, remember getting very excited in 2009 when Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo ended Our semi final hopes inside 11 minutes. So when you have all of that kind of build up before a game, it can sometimes come back and bite you on the bum. But it didn't this time. The T4 looked great, the fireworks were great. And we started off and managed the game fantastically well. And you know, the crowd have been criticized this season, and rightly at times, for transmitting those kind of nerves to the players. Well, I think they did the opposite yesterday and they transmitted a real confidence and excitement and everyone was on board.

[Nicky Bandini]

It's interesting where the mind goes, doesn't it? I think Tyers did right. Thinking about that Ronaldo goal. Actually, the atmosphere was amazing before that goal. I remember that being at Arsenal thinking, God, you know what, everyone's up for it tonight. Maybe we'll do something. And then how quickly it can be punctured. So I was thinking about the narratives we tell around games and how, yes, the atmosphere last night was spectacular and something that Artetas in trying to build and Arsenal try to build. But it's not the atmosphere that wins the game. Still, even. Even despite that, you have to. You have to have the performance to match it.

[Barry Glendenning]

I'd actually made a note of this, and I was almost afraid to say it in case I got absolutely hammered, but seeing as you mentioned it, would it be fair to say that since getting criticized after the Bournemouth game for boo and Arsenal off, despite them being nine points clear at the top of the table, the Arsenal fans seem to have tweaked that they can do more for their team than turn up five minutes before kickoff, sit in silence or moan for 90 minutes and then go home. That because last night seemed really special. The. The welcome for the team, coach, the fireworks. I love a good tifo. That one was great, especially when you compare it to the, you know what was a cannon on a bed sheet hung disconsolately behind one goal. Was it last season. And I think that makes a huge difference to the team.

[Tayo Papula]

Yeah, I mean, look, being there as a fan, it goes both ways. It's been a very, very, very tense season. There has been this tension in the crowd because this one season feels like it's lasted for four years. And there's a lot of tension around that is on the crowd to kind of react positively. And I do. I take slight issue, of course, with the idea that we're kind of turning up disconsolate and booing. That did happen against Bournemouth. Bournemouth was a terrible performance. It doesn't help, but at the same time, the crowd are responding to the team. And after the optimism, enthusiasm of the Fulham game, I think. And of course, even though it's a different competition, the result a couple of nights ago with Man, City and Everton, it turned the mood positive and that atmosphere came with it and the players responded to that. And I think there was one way where the crowd did make a big difference is like when the. The board went up for five minutes. That normally is a point for, oh, no, we got another five minutes of hell ahead. But there was a massive, massive cheer and there was that encouragement all the way through. So, Leah, I don't know if it's a case of the Arsenal fans finally working out that they've got to be part of it. I think a dam has slightly broken in the last couple of days in terms of atmosphere and optimism, and the end of the season feels like it's in sight. And I think that energy and enthusiasm is brought as much by the team as it was by the crowd.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, and the end's in sight, Nikki. And you could win all of it.

[Nicky Bandini]

Yeah, let's not make the whole. The whole Arsenal just been to a Champions League final qualifying night about where the crowd been good enough recently. That's not actually what this is about, is it? I mean, that's. It's amazing. They've been that they were. It was such an amazing atmosphere last night. Listen, in the end, as much as I am a fan and the atmosphere matters to me and it matters to everyone, I think it is still not about just the fans. It's about the players on the pitch. To win a game of football, which is a really hard game of football, I do think the atmosphere comes into it. I think it's important to mention. I just thought it was a bit of. A bit the same as maybe with after the Bayern PSG first leg. I don't think everyone listening wants to go straight to the commercial and everything that's wrong with modern football, maybe we can enjoy the fact that there's some happiness before we go straight to that. But listen, I think that it's worth saying that actually this is part of what Atletico Madrid do so effectively under Diego Simeone. They do make you feel unconfident, they do make you feel unsettled. They haven't always been this. This juggernaut, but what they are effective at doing, even when they haven't got the best players in an individual matchup, is making you doubt yourself. And I think what was really, you can put it on the crowd if you want to, but I think you've got to also acknowledge that this is what Mika Arteta has built as a manager is a team that actually has now been, despite all the bottling remarks, despite everything else, has been playing in really competitive games for a really long time, and on this occasion, did not show even an inch of nerves. Really. Didn' actually really delivered from. From the start of this game. And it's easy to go, oh, well, they aren't playing psg, they aren't playing Bayern Munich. That's true. Arsenal have had the soft side of the draw, but the this, they weren't playing nobody either. They were playing against team that had Julian Alvarez, they had Antoine Griezmann, that had Adamo Lookman, and none of those players looked at all threatening. And. And I think you can, you know, you can get into the detail of that as well. We should probably question whether or not Simeone got his team selection right, whether or not he should have had. Whether or not switching the whole team out. It felt like with 60 Minutes gone, was the right choice, because it felt like that really threw them off their rhythm. But I. I do think, you know, let's celebrate how flipping good that is, because in the end, two teams reached the final. Arsenal, one of them.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. And. And I wanted it to get edgy. I was, like, waiting for it to get edgy. I was, like, waiting for the panic and the panic was never there. And I was like, this is really annoying. I want some panic. Because I wasn't necessarily supporting Arsenal in this game, but they were good. And actually, Paul from the front, I thought Jocherez, who hasn't been brilliant, I think, at holding the ball up for large parts of the season, but has been really good at that in the last sort of three weeks, basically, I thought he led the line absolutely brilliantly.

[Paul Watson]

He was fantastic. He's like a whole. He looks like a whole different person. And it's funny because I don't think he's necessarily doing a completely different job. I think he's been making these runs, he's been working very hard, but it suddenly feels like something's clicked in him, especially after Fulham. After that game, he just looked so much more pumped up and confident. I do also feel like the fans response to him is a part of that. I feel like the fans are now, you know, in the past, was a bit of eye rolling at some of the runs he was making, and, you know, no one's ever doubted necessarily his effort and his workload, but he was starting to make runs that looked pretty futile, whereas suddenly, you know, he Made the goal that was very. He's doing. He created the situation that led to the goal and from nothing really, not from a particularly threatening position. His run alone created that situation and it's really nice actually because there's always been this doubt about, you know, is he going to be a flop. And I still don't think it's definitively, you know, he's been a success but I do think it's really nice to see a player settle into a club and actually finally show what he's capable of. And last night felt for him like a real celebration of how far he's come that he, he did miss that great chance as well. To be fair, he missed a brilliant chance for a second one but again he got into that position and, and you know, if he'd scored that, you just said what a game from Yokos, you know, he's on fire. But you know he did miss that chance. I will, I will concede that and I really thought that was going in all the way and you know, looked perfect. The ball was perfect. Was it in Capia I think put it perfectly into him and he did, he did blaze it. But I just think he's such a different player when he's confident and he looks confident and I'm, I'm just really him actually I'm no in, no, by no means an Arsenal fan but I love to see a player who perhaps looks like he's, he's on, on course to be seen as a bit of a flop finally sort of deliver.

[Tayo Papula]

Ty, I've been very critical of Kyokerez this season. Certainly I think he's not, he's not showed the kind of technical ability he's looked awkward but he was brilliant last night and as you say, not so much with the goal scoring stuff but the running of the channels, the incredible hold up play. He gave Lenormand and Panko a really, really tough time all night. Did brilliantly bringing other into it as well. But he also really benefited from having players on either side of him, fit and available who kind of complement him because he had a fit sacker and I'm sure will come to him. Trossard also two players who like when he plays alongside say Martinelli or Madawake, he's got, you've got a side of three runners who, who are perhaps all trying to go for the same balls through midfield that he is as well. But he, his strengths were played to by having Saka mixing things up with having Trossard going short for him. As well. And so he's not having to battle, you know, James Tarkovsky or. Or other Premier League defenders who he has struggled with because the Premier League is really, really hard. So he's very recently we've had. We've been playing him more into kind of channels where he has been able to kind of bully his way, use his speed, use his upper body strength in that situation much more effectively. And I also think just one thing to say about him, as I say I've been quite critical of him. He's been available this season when others haven't and you know, he's done the minutes that Havertz Marino, Jesus if they've been fit. So he's kind of battled through. He's found his place in the Premier League. He's found the Champions League a little bit more easy physically, of course, in comparison. But he's really put the. He's kind of put the work in and how he's got to 20 goals. If you ask me to go through them all. I'm not sure I can do that for you.

[Barry Glendenning]

But.

[Tayo Papula]

But he's shown up and he's found a groove and now with better players on the pitch with him, with, with Califiori looking to forward motion at all times, with Ezra looking for him as he did for. For Saka's goal the other day, he's got players around him and look, guess what? Arsenal look better with their better players on the pitch and he's definitely benefited from that.

[Max Rushden]

And one of those players was Lewis Skelly. And I was like, I was surprised that he was. I wasn't sure if Zubamendi wasn't 100% fit, but I was. I was. I just thought he did incred well in. In what must be like it's. It's incredible moment to be put into center mid. I don't know how many play times he's played center mid but it feels like Ostent be the second time he's been put there, you know, and he hasn't played so much this season.

[Barry Glendenning]

Unless I'm mistaken, I think he is a center mid by trade as a like as a kid. So it's not a position that's alien to him, but I thought it was a brave selection by Artesa and it paid off. Again, I don't know what Christian Norgaard has done since leaving Brentford. What has happened to him. The guy cannot get a minute on the pitch it seems but. And I wonder what he makes has been overlooked for miles. Louis Kelly, this, this child Playing out of position in terms of his senior appearances. But Louis Kelly didn't put a foot wrong. And there are other selections. Arteta you could argue were a bit of a gamble. Pick Ben White, who was again fine. I mean, I can't think of a single Arsenal player who didn't have a good game last night. David Reyes, good. Again, he didn't have to do much, but what he was called upon to do, he did were fine. And again, I just add my praise to Giacares. I think I remember saying a couple of months ago, that's just not working for him and it wasn't at the time. But the transformation in him over the last six to eight weeks has been jaw dropping, I think.

[Max Rushden]

Worth a mention for Saka Nick, isn't it? I mean like, you know, tiny mention

[Nicky Bandini]

maybe for the player who scored the goal.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, absolutely. But him, him coming back is because I, I, there were times when Madaweki, I think started really brilliant for Arsenal. You were like, oh, this is, you know, it sort of doesn't matter which one you pick at one point. But then you do see the, the, and, and Saka, I think Barney was saying on Monday, you know, had looked a bit tired at times of season but you know, like it wasn't the most brilliant goal he's ever scored. But like he's such a special player.

[Nicky Bandini]

No, but I, I think there is, I mean there's a real, obviously there's, there's a qualitative difference between Madueke and Saka and that's not chucking Madoaki under some sort of bus. You can be a very good player and not be as good as Bukayo. Saka, I think he's, he's, I've always felt like he's, he's the special player in this team, but maybe that' other people are disservice, but he's the one I'm most excited to watch. That's certainly true. He's always our star boy and, and I, I think that there's, it's easy to go, oh, scoring the goal, that, the flashy thing, the thing that you, you remember, of course, and, and, and having that moment of running to the crowd. But actually I think there's something almost more to it than that, which is for a 24 year old, he's really actually quite patient. I think that's part of again, what I was talking about before with Arsenal not panicking in this situation with being up against team that just wants to have you under pressure the whole time. That quite patient. It's a lovely ball from, from Saliba. I think it was originally to get Kyokosh free. He takes the time he needs to get the ball right across goal. Trossard really takes his time, doesn't panic, takes that, that, that beat to, to look for the ball. And I think all of those things are, are what makes it. And I think that Saka is absolutely a player who does that, who, who transmits that and who, when he's got, when he's on the ball or not actually on that, on that flank, he, he, you can see that he really is taking decisions. Whereas Madwe, he's so good at going past his man. But I'm not always sure he is making those decisions with as much thought as Saka is. So I think that there is a different intelligence that team and Saka's in it personally and I think that's part of why they won last night. I will say this does go back to the fan thing and I want to be clear. I was never trying to get away from the fan thing. I just felt like it was a bit negative that initial talk. But I do think like as someone who grew up in London, there's something extra magic about when you hear Saka talking in the game. You're like, yeah, you know, like that's what it sounds like in London. That's how being an Arsenal game has always been. Those are the people, you know, you've grown up with and enjoyed football with your whole life. And it just, it does feel like as a fan, he's one of us. And that feels a little bit extra special.

[Max Rushden]

Athletic weren't great in this pool. I mean, I mean obviously part of that is Arsenal stopping them. Be great. But were you expecting more?

[Paul Watson]

Yes, I think I probably was, but I think I was also expecting exactly what we got to some degree. So coming into this, I think to some degree what was interesting was that the first leg, because of the disappointment with overturned penalty, it felt like Arsenal were a bit disappointed to have only got that one all draw. But actually that was a huge result. You know that that was really for me the danger leg because you go into a stadium where I think they've never Athletia, never lost to an English side in a Champions League knockout at home. So, you know, this is a really daunting tie and I think really the, the credit to Arsenal for the way they weathered that, that they came away disappointed to only have got the draw. I think it then put this huge pressure on Athletic because they were only really going to be able to play the way they played. And it relies on those little moments, those little sparks from Griezmann or Alvarez or someone to do something magical and. And it didn't really happen for them. That said, there were some. There were some moments like, I think, you know, we talked about this game being perhaps not the edge of the seat kind of game, and it wasn't. It didn't have that feel of, like, your stomach plummeting as an Arsenal fan. I'm not an Arsenal fan, but, you know, I didn't feel like Arsenal fans were sitting there with their stomach plummeting every minute or something. There weren't an abundance of chances, but there were those moments. And, you know, there's. There's when Simeone got through and was sort of bundled down Griezmann's penalty shout. You know, all of these things could have been the moments. So I don't. I don't look at it and say, well, I think Athletic played particularly badly or managed the game particularly badly. The only point, this decision, to change things up so massively, just at the point that they seemed like they were catching a kind of flow atlety to. To suddenly make those changes and sort of change the whole. The way they were playing seemed. Seemed slightly counterintuitive to me.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, I know. There was the sawloth air shot, which, you know, given how hard he kicks the ball, must have hurt the air. I thought just, you know, the poor bit of air that he kicked would have been tough. It was funny, Ty, you were saying before the pod, you weren't sure if it was a good game or like. Like what being a fan does. You just weren't sure. You know, it was interesting when Paul said it wasn't edge of the seat stuff. I don't. I think it was sort of back of the seat stuff for. For neutrals, but you just have no idea or.

[Tayo Papula]

Yeah, I was reliably told that it was an absolute turkey of a game, so thanks for clarification. Look, you don't. Yeah, you don't. You don't know in there. There was a moment, like around 70 minutes where. And I didn't say out loud because of jinxing, of course, but it was the first time I felt comfortable. And to your point, Paul and Nikki, about the substitutions, about the disrupting of the flow, when you take off Alvarez and Griezmann and go for that kind of Hail Mary switch up, that was a vote of confidence for what Arteta had been able to do. In terms of suffocating the team. So if you're watching as a neutral without that tension, then I can perhaps concede that it might have brought you to tears. But there was no way that there were battles all over the pitch for the one eyed Arsenal fan, you know, and we found those and Mikel Arteta seemed to come up with the solution for all of the small amount that Athletic offered. And they didn't really offer much up front. There was that kind of scare with. I always think if Simeone had gone down at the first opportunity, then we might have had a case for, for a penalty. But he tried to stay on his feet, thank you very much. And, and take the shot. So apart from that, there wasn't really too much to worry about. So, yeah, as a, as a fan watching it, I was absorbed from start to finish. I was especially absorbed because where I sit is right in front of Diego Simeone and Arteta and the two of them as jack in the boxes. It was incredible to watch as a side, as a, as a sideshow. I mean, there was a point where Simeone ends up, up in Arteta's technical area.

[Max Rushden]

Great. At some point.

[Tayo Papula]

So, so that in itself was sensational. But yeah, couldn't take my, couldn't take my eyes off it. I will watch it all again and I'll concede that it might not be as much fun the second time around without that tension taken away, which is

[Nicky Bandini]

everything I just wanted on those substitutions. And that impact, it's another of those fan things that maybe isn't real, but Antoine Gresman scored that goal against us in the Europa League and then did the fortnight celebration, however many years ago that is now. And I think there's like that institutional fear of players you get. Cause you remember them ruining a big night.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nicky Bandini]

And so at least as a fan, like the second he goes off, you're like, oh, thank God. Because like you're waiting for him to do it again, to go and score that goal and do the dance he hasn't done in years and years, but he used to do. And yeah, I do think that substitution psychologically as a fan at least was like, oh, thank God he's out of the way.

[Max Rushden]

Baz. It'll be, I mean, it'd be good to get a pound for everyone who says Styles make fights in the lead up to whoever Arsenal play in the final. But that will be, regardless of who it is. It will be a fascinating game.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah. Arsenal will almost certainly go into it as underdogs Whoever they're playing. But it's a final. It's a one off game. Does every day of every chance of winning it? You know, we've seen it happen before. Wigan beaten Man City in the Cup Final. Any number of FA cup shocks see massive upsets in other sports. I don't think Arsenal beating Byron or PSG would be a massive upset, but I think they will need whoever they're playing to have a bad day. They'll need big performances all over the pitch. But I'd give them a definite. Definitely give them a chance. Of course they have a chance. They're in the final. I was about to say something uncomplimentary about Michael Arteta, but okay. It's not allowed, is it, Barry?

[Nicky Bandini]

Should

[Barry Glendenning]

I forgot I'm on the Arskash today.

[Max Rushden]

Hey, Barry, you can say what you like.

[Nicky Bandini]

I would like to hear Baz's uncomfortable thing about Omega Arteta. I also just think, and I completely agree with everyone who's going to say it, Arsenal will be the underdogs in this final. But it is weird. It is nevertheless weird that we're talking about a team like there's some crazy underdog while they are top of the Premier League and have not lost in the Champions League this season, they have zero losses in the Champions League.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, Barry. Now time to take this away from. You know, there are lots of listeners to this podcast who. Who don't want everything to be positive about Arsenal.

[Barry Glendenning]

So no, I would just. We mentioned the touchline antics of Simeone and Arteta and I. While mildly amusing, it's getting out of hand. Artesia's behavior on the touchline is disgraceful. And the sooner the better. Some fullback or winger absolutely cleans him out accidentally in inverted commas while going for a ball that's rolled down the touchline, the better. I cannot wait to see it up in the air.

[Max Rushden]

What is it you don't understand? What is it you don't like, Barry?

[Barry Glendenning]

He's interfering with the game. He's practically standing on the pitch and he's got this rectangle he's supposed to stand in and he doesn't stand in it.

[Paul Watson]

And so was Simeone last night. Simeone was so far down the line, I thought he was gonna take a throw in.

[Barry Glendenning]

I said at the start. I mentioned both of them, but it's just. It shouldn't be allowed. You know, you have a technical area. Stand in it. It's not hard.

[Max Rushden]

Are you sad, Austin in the final, Barry?

[Barry Glendenning]

I couldn't give a shit.

[Max Rushden]

Who would you prefer Tayo out of PSG and Bayern.

[Tayo Papula]

There is a revenge factor to play PSG again. I wouldn't dare to suggest that one side is going to be better suited to Arsenal than the other, but I think the overriding thing is living in a world where Harry Kane has scored a winner against your team in the Champions League final. I'd like to take that out of the equation. So if my choice is based entirely on that, I can live with it being Dembele. It's too long a summer. If it's Harry Kane.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah.

[Max Rushden]

What if he's got a Spurs shirt underneath his Bayern shirt? Just there. He's just got it on. What a moment that would be. All right, thank you, Tayo. Thanks for your job. Go back to producing this podcast now. How we survived without a producer for part one. No one will know. I will be back in a second.

[Barry Glendenning]

All, all my bits from Parent World are going to be taken out. Officially. Come out and nailed his colors to the mast.

[Max Rushden]

You provided what necessary balance for this very objective podcast, Barry.

[Paul Watson]

Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

And we'll be back.

[Barry Glendenning]

I don't think anything I've said is even remotely controversial. That's the problem.

[Max Rushden]

You just seem in a bit of a mood, that's all. Okay. Nothing's worse when you're not in a mood than someone saying, are you in a mood? Because then that gets you in a mood, doesn't it? I didn't mean it. We'll be back in a second.

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[Max Rushden]

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So then another good night for Arsenal the night before. Everton 3, Manchester City 3. Which means Arsenal have 76 points from 35 games and Matty are five points behind with a game in hand. What a game, Paul. And. And weird. At the end of it all the players look devastated.

[Paul Watson]

Yeah, like I don't know if you saw. This is a bit of a tangent, but did you see there was a non league game and someone took a photo that was on Twitter where Both teams had been relegated and there was this shot that was just magic because every single player on the field was on their knees in that kind of we've been relegated.

[Max Rushden]

Pos.

[Paul Watson]

There was a bit of that here, wasn't there? Because also what was so weird about this game is that that Man City end up, like, grabbing what should theoretically be a kind of. There should be some sort of relief and joy in scoring a last second equalizer, and I'm sure there is, but they must be gutted because, you know, this is enormously costly result. It may be basically the death knell for their title ambitions. And Everton must be gutted too, because they look, I mean, there's no way they should have won this game. Everton really, by. By rights, I mean, for the first, like, I don't know how many minutes, they barely got out their own box. It just looked like it was going to be a really typical sort of Man City win. So nothing in this game made any sense, really, even beyond the fact that actually Ilman and Jai basically had three or four other chances that didn't go in. It could. It was just a game that made zero sense. But, yeah, left both sides. Absolutely gutted.

[Max Rushden]

My overwhelming sadness is for David Moyes, who's never beaten Pep, and you're like, this is your chance, this is your chance. Poor bloke. I mean, the reality is, Barry, that that docu strike, it does basically keep the title race alive, I think. I think without that, it is completely done. I mean, it's sort of done, but it's not done done.

[Barry Glendenning]

I think it is done. And I thought it was hilarious that when he scored that equalizer, he wheeled away with his finger to his lips and kept tapping his finger against his lips. And I'm going, who are you trying to shush here? You've dropped two points. You've given the title to Arsenal. I. I'll be astonished if Arsenal don't win the title at this stage. They could have scarcely have hand picked three easier fixtures for the remaining games. Everyone is saying that West Ham have something to fight for, are fighting for their lives, and that's all well and good, but I could be fighting for my life. But if I'm fighting against someone who's a much better fighter than me, I'm still going to lose and be dead.

[Paul Watson]

So it's like a motivational speech that, Barry, you should put that on, put that on. Mugs and T shirts.

[Max Rushden]

To do a real. You should do a real. This is that,

[Barry Glendenning]

you know, I might get lucky with a Punch. But I'm almost. I'm going to lose if I'm fighting against someone who's better at fighting than me, which is pretty much every human being who's ever lived. So I, I'd be astonished if Arsenal don't win the League. And I, I still think City won't win all the remaining games. They've got some tough games coming.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. I mean, I suppose with my spurs hat on, I could just see Arsenal not helping Tottenham by accident and dropping points to West Ham. But. But yeah, if they beat West Ham, you sort of think Burnley at home PA away three days before palace probably have a European final.

[Barry Glendenning]

I thought City was slightly unlucky hearing that. I think Michael Keane should absolutely have been sent off for that challenge on Jeremy Docu in the first half and he, he got away with a yellow card. I think he was very lucky boy there.

[Max Rushden]

I mean, there's been so much talk, Nikki, of, of Arsenal bottling things, and I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Gabriela Saliba had made the mistake that Mark Gay made. And look, Gay has been so brilliant for City and all moments in a season are defining, but that is a defining moment because Everton, okay, they had some chances, but, like, until he does that, they're not getting back into this game.

[Nicky Bandini]

Yeah, yeah. In terms of the game, it's completely transformative. I think, as Paul said, it was just a really odd game because Everton looked completely not part of it until suddenly they were the better team for 20 minutes and could have scored six. It felt like. It just felt like every time they were going forward they could have scored again. And even at 3:2, you've got Donna Rumma comes up for a corner and if they could just hoof it long, they might score that way and then they don't end up winning. So it was, it was a very strange game, but it does start to get weird with that game mistake. So it, it, it absolutely is one of the pivotal moments of the race. I, I think almost because of that, I can't agree with Barry and certainly I'm aware I'm viewing things through my own lens as, as someone who's, who's got a horse in the race. But, but the. I don't think either of these teams has, has been without mistakes and without nerves. And as, as quickly as we've gone from Arsenal not being in control of it to being back in control of it, it's worth remembering. It's, it's. It's five seconds ago that they were looking very Nervy against Newcastle. So it just takes a weird thing to happen in a football game for things to change. And I do think one of the, the things that is being slightly under acknowledged in all of this title race in which we, We've. We've often said it's over when it wasn't, or at least people have. I, I haven't, but people have is that the Premier League's very competitive. The, the gap between the good teams and the bad teams is not as wide as it is in other leagues. And therefore some of these teams, if they show up in the way that they're capable of, can cause surprises. And, and, and, and there's so many examples that through the season, Arsenal drew against Wolves, who are the worst team in the division according to the table. So it isn't. I don't think it's over, but it's certainly Arsenal have the, you know, have, have the command of it and, and will be the ones who've thrown it away if they don't win it.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. And yet, you know, if you beat West Ham Burnley at home, palace away is just. Palace is because palace would rest. If they're in the Conference League final, they'd probably rest everyone. But then I guess Forest rested everyone and they hammered Chelsea. So, like, who, who knows? I, I one of a bit I loved in this game and I, like in football matches, Paul, is when a goal happens before the directors and the commentators are ready to. And that very much happened with that Harland goal. All of us were like, wow, how's he there?

[Tayo Papula]

How does that happen?

[Paul Watson]

The Harlan goal to me felt like. It felt like if you're playing, you know, sometimes you have to play like someone's kid on a computer game. Like, you're playing FIFA and it's, oh, you're playing against, like, your nephew or something, and suddenly your nephew's actually really quite good. And they get three one up and you're like, all right, I'm gonna have to just put you in your place a little bit here, like, run them up and score a goal. It's like Harlem was like, come on. No, no. And the funniest thing was the fans leaving. Do you see the fans, man City fans leaving and then coming back in like 80 seconds later. And you think it's kind of hard as a Man City fan to become disconsolate, isn't it? Because they immediately give you hope and you have to come back in.

[Nicky Bandini]

I felt like the celebrations at the end were almost like a Bit of that. It was like it wasn't even so much that we've got result we want we ruined your night and that sometimes in football that's quite satisfying.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. I don't disagree. Oh I just wanted to check with you Barry because the. The guy who set up the second goal for Everton I had never heard of and I was like should I have heard of all the players by now? Had you heard of Merlin?

[Barry Glendenning]

A role I had and then one of my takeouts from this game actually and from the last time I saw him was who's calling their son Merlin? But yeah, I've never heard of. I've heard of the magician and him and that's the only. And a cat I know I've a friend of mine used to have a cat called Merlin.

[Max Rushden]

I think Merlin is a safer name than if I was thinking at the playground and they say this is young Merlin. I'd go okay, fair enough. If they said this is young Gandalf then I'd be like okay, that's a step. You can't give that. That's. That is not fair, man. City have Brentford at home, palace at home, Bournemouth away, Villa home. As we said Arsenal please be West Ham and then Burnley. I would like Arsenal to beat West Ham and then lose to Burnley please. That would be. That's my dream. And then pass away. Let's go to Stafford Bridge then. Chelsea won Forest 3 and as I've mentioned Baz, we made such a big thing of Villa kind of letting spurs win to keep Forest in trouble, keep them scared. They had to play this game a day after Villa before this Europa League semi final second leg and he made eight changes and they won anyway.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah and I was doing the minute by minute for this game and when I saw the Forest team I, you know, serious eyebrow raised. I thought he's taking a big risk here. And then he did his pre match interview Vitor and said he had faith in these players getting a result and boy did they. And I suppose we forgot to factor in that they were playing Chelsea who were on a run of five league defeats without scoring a goal. And they were very lucky to get away with this defeat without having failing to score another goal. The only positive for them in this game was Xiao Pedro's bicycle kick. Deepen out of time. A hugely impressive display by Forest made very easy for them by the fact that Chelsea are an absolute shambles. Jesse Derry made his full debut for Chelsea. Sean Derry's son. I think you know Sean quite well, don't you? I'VE met him a couple of times in Talksport Towers. Nice guy. But Jesse Derry, playing as a left winger for Chelsea, he had to get stretchered off shortly before half time with what looked like a really worrying injury after a clash of heads with Zach Abbott, who's also a teenager who's, you know, fine having his breakout season with, with Forest. But he's okay now, thank God. Jesse dairy he to hospital for precautionary checks, but don't know what to make of Chelsea at all. There's. There's a line from Ted Lasso, which I watched series three last week, finally got round to it. And there's one episode where the owner of AFC Richmond is in talks with other club owners. They're being invited to join a super league. And she, she makes the point that, that while you might own these clubs, they don't belong to you. And I think that is a criticism that could be leveled at Chelsea's owners. You own Chelsea. It doesn't belong to you. But they don't seem to twig that. And I think Chelsea fans are getting very, very fed up and starting to realize that their club no longer belongs to them.

[Max Rushden]

I mean there's, it's Mad Paul seeing so many red Ls next to Chelsea. When you look at the league table, it's just all this. Even a team that's, you know, in the 10, it'll just like that and it's impossible to work them out, isn't it? You sort of think like in your mind you're like, Chelsea away is a hard game. They are good. You look at the players and you think those players are good. But I don't know, like, I don't. I just don't. I. Like we're saying the Everton City game is very hard game to analyze. Chelsea are a very hard club to analyze.

[Paul Watson]

Yeah, I agree. I don't, I don't think I understand anything that goes on when it comes to Chelsea and, and the, the thing of expecting them to be a hard game kind of reminds me of this Manchester United problem that I had for many years. I've only really. I've just kicked it in time for them to get a lot better that I always assumed Manchester United were a tough team to face. For years after that wasn't the case because they are Manchester United. And I grew up watching them win games in the 175th minute when they were dead and buried. You know, I still associated this kind of, this kind of feelings what Manchester United are. And it's a bit like that with Chelsea, like. Like, you know, what are they now? They. They're not. They're also just very hard to work out because they're. They just seem like a collection of freelancers playing together. It's like. It's almost like they're going to move.

[Max Rushden]

They're going to move from Stamford Bridge to a wework, aren't they?

[Paul Watson]

Should. They should become like the Harlem Globetrotters. Like, they should become just a team that play in, like, any city that will have them every week. It's, it's. I mean, it is genuine. It's from a sort of neutral perspective. It's quite sad to see the depths they've sunk to. In a certain regard, though, they're not a club that is that easy to feel sorry for. But, yeah, I. I don't understand them, but I'm having to re. Every week I seem to recalibrate how good I think Chelsea are and it always goes downwards. Basically.

[Max Rushden]

They can no longer finish higher than sixth, which could be a Champions League position, as we've established, if Villa finished fifth and win the Europa League. But, Nikki, it would be very Chelsea to go win the FA cup up amidst this ridiculousness of this season.

[Nicky Bandini]

I know, well, in amongst that sea of red and obviously it's Portville, but the fact they beat Portfolio for the seven nil in the cup is just so weird, isn't it? Like all these losses and then just go out and smash someone by seven goals. It almost feels like that's what. That's all they're waiting for. They've kind of packed up for this season. They're just waiting for the Cup Final. And. And maybe that is a thing that you can do is, is save all your energy for that. But I also think that that's much more unlikely because what feels more likely is that you get yourself in the habit of losing. You keep losing when you play someone really good in the final.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. And then for. On Forest's case, Baz, is that. Are you putting them as safe? I mean, West Ham would have to win at least two of their last three to be level on points. And they have a much worse goal difference than Forest. So they're on 36 and Tottenham on 37.

[Barry Glendenning]

I would put Forest safe. They're not mathematically safe, but I can see them getting more points. So they only need one probably, to be absolutely safe. Just on. On Chelsea, I can't see them finishing six. If they don't qualify for the Champions League, I would imagine there'll be serious financial Repercussions down the line because of the revenue, the miss. They're already in trouble with UEFA for financial chicanery and that presumably will rehappen.

[Max Rushden]

Although they, you know, they do play spurs in two games time, spurs will

[Barry Glendenning]

beat this Chelsea team.

[Max Rushden]

I mean, spurs can't beat any Chelsea team at Stamford Bridge ever. Like, they just can't. They just literally cannot do it. Maybe this is the chance there's just no Tottenham fan which will dare believe it.

[Barry Glendenning]

And what about Cole Palmer, by the way? Is, is he playing himself out of the England squad, which, you know, what

[Max Rushden]

I thought was interesting about him and Gibbs White? I know Gibbs White was only on the pitch for a short amount of time. He got an injury and he seems to be okay. But yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, Barry, about, you know, if you're going to find a spot there, it looks like you could have a sort of extra 10 as your 26th player in the squad and there's no way you could pick him over Gibbs White at the moment. I don't think. I don't know what you think.

[Barry Glendenning]

I don't think so. No. He's had a terrible season. He wasn't good in this game. I mean, I'd excuse him the missed penalty because he'd just seen his mate get stretchered off unconscious with an oxygen mask around his face. So I need a long time to wait to take that penalty. But even so, his performance wasn't good. He, he hasn't played well for quite a long time and I, I'd say he's in big danger of missing out on the World Cup.

[Nicky Bandini]

Yeah.

[Max Rushden]

And fitness issues as well. Right. You know, you have to play a lot of games in a short amount of time.

[Barry Glendenning]

Although he might thrive in an England team that isn't full of bloody idiots. Selfish, self centered imbeciles, which is what he's in at the moment. But then I don't think he can excuse himself from that. You know, he's part of that squad. He's one of them.

[Max Rushden]

Here's a bit where I encourage you to listen to other Guardian podcasts. There's a new video podcast our New York office is launching. It's called Stateside with Kai and Carter. Hosted by our colleagues Kai Wright and Carter Sherman. Each week they're gonna be trying to make sense of some of the biggest stories happening right now. The show will feature conversations with some of the smartest thinkers and reporters we have not been asked on, not just from the Guardian, but across the world. It's launching on the 13th of May with episodes every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. You can find it in full video on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast. And speaking of New York, I'm afraid to say that we've sold out our live show at the Bowery Ballroom, but the sales were encouraging enough for me to pitch a US tour for sometime in the future. So watch this space, I guess. But yeah, unfortunately we don't have time to do another live show or, you know, say we'll play Madison Square Gardens instead. But thank you for all getting tickets quickly or trying to get some. And we'll try and come back in the future. And that'll do for part two. Ewan Murray joins us for part three.

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[Max Rushden]

Welcome to Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Let's go to Fitbar Corner. We've not been to the Jazz Bar for a long time. Ewan Murray joins us. Hey.

[Ewan Murray]

Hello.

[Barry Glendenning]

How are you?

[Max Rushden]

Very good. And now in a sea of miserable panelists, it is often thought, Ewan, that you may be at the top of that league. But you must be very excited at the moment. Hearts. Let me just do the league table. Hearts have 76 from 35. Celtic 73 from 35. Rangers 69 from 35. After Hearts beat Rangers at the weekend, how are you feeling?

[Ewan Murray]

Who do I nudge into second in the miserable panelist league team?

[Max Rushden]

I mean, who? I mean, obviously there's a man in a blue jumper sitting just below you on my screen. There's Jonathan Wilson. I mean, Barney has his moments, doesn't he? Like Sid on WhatsApp can be pretty. It's pretty tough. Nicky and Paul are out of this equation anyway. Yes. How are you feeling?

[Ewan Murray]

Yes. So should I declare my interest in this for those who do not know?

[Max Rushden]

Please, please, of course.

[Ewan Murray]

I mean, listen, it would be professionally exciting and intriguing for me if any team was Challenging. Well, it's been Celtic recently, but Celtic and Rangers, 40 year duopoly on the Scottish title, that would be a great thing to be covering. But Hearts have meant more to me than they should have done for the vast majority of my life. It's been an obsession at times to the detriment of other things. So, listen, I don't need to go into that, but the fact it's Hearts keeps me awake at night, to be honest. It's a major deal. So. So, yes, the next week and a half is going to be exciting, enthralling, very nervy. And I wasn't nervy about it at all, actually, until that Rangers game on Monday. And actually until the moment where the fourth official put up a board saying seven minutes of stoppage time. And I thought I was going to throw up all over myself in the press box. What has happened here is there's been a sudden realization that Hart's actually could win the league. And I'm. I'm now struggling a little bit to cope with that.

[Max Rushden]

I bet. How did you feel it? So, for those who don't know, Rangers were much better than Hearts for the first half of this game. And I don't know how you felt at half time.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah, just that, I mean. I mean, Rangers were considerably better than Hearts, but there were only one goal in front. And having watched Hearts closely this season, they have turned around a lot of games and they have been in sticky patches and a lot of games. They haven't blown teams away week on week. They're not good enough to do that, candidly, but they've been in that position before. So I think it was wise for anyone to keep. To keep faith with them. And they made changes to start the second half. And again, and what is a familiar story, Rangers couldn't react to that. So. And then the scenes, the scenes before the game are the best I've ever seen. Tyne Castle, and I've been going there for close to 40 years, but at the end it was. It was absolutely magical. It was wonderful because people realize this is now very doable and very close.

[Max Rushden]

The agony of it being close, you know, it's. That's. I mean, that is the beauty of this game, right?

[Ewan Murray]

Well, I think that's what hit me is that, you know, the fatalism, you know, what if we don't do this? What if it doesn't happen? How much is that going to hurt? And I think that's part of it. And also history has not been kind to Hearts in this context. They lost the league on goal difference with seven minutes to go effectively in the last day of the season, 1986. They lost a goal the league on goal average in the very last day of the season, 1965. So, you know, people with long memories have that in their minds and, you know, there's a bit of trepidation. So that that all feeds into it. Plus the fact on the last day of the season they're going to face a Celtic team who are just experts at winning this league. So, yeah, while it's exciting and invigorating for all the things I mentioned, naturally you worry a little bit about what if it goes wrong.

[Barry Glendenning]

You and loads of Rangers fans think you're a Celtic fan. Loads of Celtic fans think you're Rangers fans. Loads of other people think you're a Sky Sports golf commentator.

[Ewan Murray]

They're all wrong.

[Barry Glendenning]

But Celtic play Rangers at the weekend. You obviously want Rangers to win or a draw.

[Ewan Murray]

Yes.

[Barry Glendenning]

Yeah. That was no further. Elaborate.

[Ewan Murray]

Not further. Yeah, I mean, and I'm in a unique position in all of this because I cover and attend these games featuring the other clubs, you know, so. So I've covered Old Firm game. There was the last Old Firm league game at Ibrox. Rangers were two nil up and in a very, very strong position. Celtic came back and at that game, Hearts needed a draw, really. And Celtic went were 2:1 behind and were absolutely dominating Rangers. And I'm sitting in the press box worried that Celtic score too early because they might go on and win the game. 3 2. But it turned out they didn't. They equalized sufficiently late that it was a draw and that suited Hearts. So, yeah, I mean, it's my job and that's fine and I love it, but I have a range of emotions covering these fixtures, which I'm quite happy to admit, and everyone that knows me knows perfectly well it's linked to what this might mean for Hearts. So, yeah, Barry, you've articulated the position well, but in the context of my work, it's a weird place to be in Ewan.

[Nicky Bandini]

I'm looking at the league table right now. Obviously, I don't cover svn. I don't unfortunately get to watch it much. So could you just like, I suppose for listeners like me who haven't been following it, or just explain exactly what it is the Hearts need to do from here to get across the line.

[Ewan Murray]

With three games to go, there are three points in front and five goals in front of Celtic. Celtic host Hearts in the final day of the season. So I think in layman's terms, Hearts have to get to that last day at Celtic park. Sufficiently far ahead. Now, how far sufficiently far is. I wouldn't really care to speculate, but

[Barry Glendenning]

four points would be nice.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah. If they win, Hearts go to Motherwell on Saturday night, which is a very, very tricky fix to year motherboard in a very, very strong team this season and can damage anyone in the league. Then Celtic play Rangers on Sunday, as we've said. Then Hart's host Falkirk on Wednesday night, and Celtic go to Motherwell. So there's a chance, and I think a reasonable chance it will be decided before that final day. But Hart's job is to take six points if they can, which should put them in. Should put them in a very, very, very good position. But you know Celtic, who have been written off and who have been criticized and not unreasonably so at times, they have a manager, Martin o', Neill, who knows exactly what it takes to win the league in Scotland. They have players Callum McGregor, Kieran Tierney, Daisy Maehda, Rio Hutati, Arne Engels, Alistair Johnston, James Forrest, who not only are very good players in Scotland, but they also know exactly how to win the league. So they haven't really been in this position and certainly not against Hearts. But I've been wary for a while that Celtic have been written off when maybe that's a bit unfair given what they've got in their locker.

[Max Rushden]

You must be going, thank God they had Wilfred Nancy for a month.

[Ewan Murray]

I know that was another element of this wild season where I was. I was. I realized he was going to be sacked, but I was pretty disappointed with that. I wanted to keep him for another six or eight weeks.

[Max Rushden]

But there is obviously the scenario. You win all your games, they win all their games, and then you get pumped 6 nil by Celtic on the last day. And that is the absolute disaster. That is the worst possible way.

[Ewan Murray]

Well, yeah. And then the goal difference element is doubled, if you like, there, because what Celtic do immediately takes away from Hearts in that game.

[Max Rushden]

It doesn't have to be six, it could be three.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah, exactly. We were talking about that in the pub after the game on Monday. What margin would you be comfortable with going to Celtic Park? And none of us come up with a margin that was sufficiently comfortable. But listen, I'm getting into this fanboy mode and I'm quite happy to do it because I think it's reasonable in this, given what's going on. But for the Scottish game, this has been an almighty fillip. I mean, Celtic, Rangers, and say for the last number of years, just Celtics, it became monotonous, it became dull, it became non competitive. And the number of people, the number of messages I've had and people I've spoken to everywhere who have now said, now they know my affiliation. But anyway, what about Hearts? What's happening in Scotland? It has generated a level of interest and intrigue and just that competition, that element of unknown that has been so badly needed and it's been fantastic for the game as a whole this season.

[Max Rushden]

And what have Hearts done? I mean, obviously played well, won games, et cetera, but what have they done?

[Ewan Murray]

A few things have happened at once. Tony Bloom has got involved and Bloom's involvement is significant, obviously, given what he can bring himself. But also he gave Hart's access to Jamestown, the analytics company, to source players. And a couple of them who they've sourced are very, very good. And I think Bloom's involvement and the Jamestown link, I can't quantify this, but it raised the mood and it raised optimism among supporters where they thought, hang on, and maybe this is possible, where Bloom come in and said, you know, I want to disrupt Scottish football. He didn't think it would be this quick, but the fact he spoke about it and said, I will do this, that brought an atmosphere that hasn't been seen for a long, long time in Scotland. So that's one part. Derek McInnes, the manager, has done an exceptional job with a group of players he inherited because it's probably not very easy as a, you know, a lot of these players have been at Hearts for a while. You see Jamestown, they see a new recruitment model and they think, oh, I'm going to be phased out of this. But the spirit and performances that McInnes has created amongst those guys has been terrific. And also they've just ridden the crest of a wave. They benefited, I think, from not playing in Europe this season. So they started this campaign and quite a, you know, week to week basis and they started winning and just. And just built on that. And also the factors, I think they've been overplayed, but they are significant. Rangers started the season with Russell Martin, which clearly was disastrous, and they got rid of him. The Wilfred Nancy element in the middle of the season for Celtic after Brendan Rodgers had left amid much disruption, that was a factor there. I mean, Celtic have lost eight games. I think Rangers have drawn 12. Yeah, that in modern terms that's unheard of for these teams when they're pursuing the title. So Hearts have capitalized on that. But just saying they would do that, given still the massive gap in resources between Hearts and the old firm. It's not as simple as saying, and you know, the old firm have been crap and Hearts have been good. They've done something really special so far

[Max Rushden]

and actually does that, you know, given, you know, this sort of perfect storm of Celtic losing eight games, having Nancy, Rangers drawing 12, having Russell Martin. Does it increase the pressure because you think, you know, the last time you won the league was 960. When will the next time be? Or do you feel that, that, you know, Hearts are building something that could make it a three horse race more regularly?

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah, the latter. I. Funny, that's a regular conversation. Everyone says to me, this is Hart's best chance. Well, it's the best chance to this point. But I dispute the notion it will be their best chance because I just think Bloom's track record of success, the fact that he can bring players from alternative markets who will work in Scotland a lot easier than they would work in the Premier League, for example, or work in Italy or work elsewhere, I think that helps. And I'm still unconvinced by various elements of Celtic and Rangers. I think it's far from certain that they will, will improve dramatically to just knock Hearts out the picture next season, including if they don't have Champions League money. So I think it's definitely fair to say this is the best opportunity Hearts have had for decades. But I would stop short of saying it's the best chance they'll ever have because I think they're actually the start of what promises to be quite an exciting journey.

[Max Rushden]

And it's the interesting thing, and I haven't read enough about it, about this analytics thing, is that they don't. It's sort of a secret, secret. It's a secret analytics thing. Like no one, no one really knows what's in the medicine. What is it? What's the secret sauce?

[Ewan Murray]

That's right. Well, if everyone knew, I suppose it could be replicated and everyone would do it. And I mean, what's amazing is the range, the range of environments Hearts have brought players from. So, you know, he's injured just now, but one of their best players this season came from the Scottish Championship. Their best player, the best player in Scotland this season who won the PFA award last Saturday as Claudio Braga, Portuguese forward, he was in the Norwegian Second Division. You've bought him for half a million quid and they're not paying him a lot of money. But sourcing guys like that, and they say, no, no, these Players will work in Scotland. Now, everyone won't work and everyone hasn't worked, but it's the range of data, the range of leagues and the pretty near certainty that these players, if deployed correctly, will work in the Scottish League. Ocean McEntee, he was a free transfer from, from Walsall. He's been one of the stars of Hart's campaign. The variety of players they've picked up is what makes it really striking. And as I say, if Bloom and Jamestown didn't have a track record of this working elsewhere, I think people would have been skeptical. But as soon as he got involved and people dug around and said, oh hang on, look at what has happened in other leagues, there was immediate excitement and that has been proven to be correct. Nicky Como is a good example. Right?

[Nicky Bandini]

Yeah. I was actually curious just to pick up on what you were saying that you mentioned McEntee. I feel like in this conversation we haven't really talk much about players and I, I, I'm curious again as someone who doesn't get to, to watch much this, Are there players who you think we should be, be hearing more about who we should be watching more?

[Ewan Murray]

Absolutely. Well, I mean and, and I, I'm conscious not to dismiss the ones who have already been there. Lawrence Shankland, the captain had a miserable time last season, has been completely revived by, by Derek McInnis. Braga has been the star of the show. I say McEntee came from Wall, Harry Milne came from Partick Thistle. You know, the guys like that, that, that they've picked up. Saba Kjota and Albanian kid is a Greek winger are all, you know, every player heart sign there comes through the Jamestown process and every player they retain will have to, you know, pass Jamestown approval to get a contract at a certain level. So this is the process they're now right in the middle of. My, my one worry has always been and I, I've read, I've read about this again. Nikki, you can comment about Como. I worried hearts would lose a Scottish core and a Scottish identity because I think that's important and I think in the Scottish League you need some players who intrinsically know the environment. But actually, you know, their key performers this season, they're either being Scottish or have been around long enough to, to understand it. But there has been chat in Italy, hasn't there? But Como's team basically been made out of non Italians.

[Nicky Bandini]

Yeah, there's, there's only a small handful of Italians even in the first team squad at Como and they're not playing and, and I Think there's been a lot of talk about that. I suppose a big part of the concern around that in Italy is, isn't our Como doing well enough? Because Coma are demonstrably doing very well. The. The talk about that is, is it hurting the Italian national team? Which. Yeah, I suppose right now the Scottish Italian national teams are very much trending in opposite directions, aren't they? Scotland are going to a World cup in Italy, aren't you?

[Barry Glendenning]

And I think Ali McCoy's. I think it was Ali yesterday was very critical of the fact that Rangers sent out a team to play Hearts that didn't have any Scottish footballers in it. He thought that is not acceptable. You need Scottish players in your team now.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah.

[Barry Glendenning]

You know, that's a view.

[Ewan Murray]

Well, I don't want to be all Enoch Powell about this. That's not what I mean. But I mean, The Rangers use 16 players at Tyne Castle and none of them are Scottish. And I think Ali's point would be for Rangers and Celtic, especially for the biggest clubs in Scotland have typically had, if not the best Scottish players, then very prominent Scottish players. Celtics still have Callum McGregor and Kieran Tierney, for example. Harts have Craig Halkett, Lawrence Shankland. Craig Gordon is still in the squad, although he's been injured. Stephen Kingsley, who scored. Harry Milne, who I mentioned. I do think that's important just to identify with one, fans, identify. I think it'd be easier with those players. But two, I think the Scottish League is a weird league and I think players who understand that deeply have just a better chance from a starting point of doing well. I'm not saying they're all wonderful players, but I read what Ali said and that is a view shared by supporters.

[Barry Glendenning]

Can I just stress, I am not accusing Ali McCoist of being Nigel McFarage.

[Ewan Murray]

That's why I said that, you know, pals like. I know I have been criticized before because I have raised it when. When Rangers especially or Celtic have a few Scots in their team because I think it's damaging for the national team and for the footballers in the country. What I would say, unlike in Italy, although maybe it's sharpened focus in Italy because of the issues around the World Cup. Scotland is actually so tribal that people don't typically care if Rangers are winning every week. With no Scots in the team. No Rangers fan is going to say, ah, but where are the Scottish players? And Celtic are the same. And I dare say Hearts maybe may become the same as well. It's such a. A tribal environment that. That usurps how many Scottish players are in the squads? If the team is winning but Rangers are struggling a bit like Monday night. It's the kind of thing that will raise its head and I think it's a decent point.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, it's amazing. You also chanced upon my pre POD motivational chat, which is, let's not go all Enoch Powell today. It's just something I like to live by. Anyway, Ewan, good luck to you.

[Ewan Murray]

Thank you. I hope we're speaking pre World cup post domestic season and I'm. And goodness knows where I'll be or

[Max Rushden]

how could be the happiest panelist alive. Who knows. You and Mario there, our Scottish football correspondence. Cheers, mate. Thanks, pal.

[Ewan Murray]

Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

You and Mario, Scottish Football correspondent. Just finally, Paul, in the WhatsApp group, you put. Imagine you're all across this, but FC Vaduz extended their world record by winning the Lichtenstein cup this evening. I didn't see the whole game. Paul, can you briefly tell us what's happened?

[Paul Watson]

Well, I thought we were going to do a whole part on this, but I'll condense it briefly. So, yeah, FC Vad have won their 52nd Liechtenstein cup, which is a world record. No other team has won their domestic cup that many times. And the reason they tend to win it every year is because they're the only professional team in Liechtenstein. So Liechtenstein has no league. All their teams have to play in the Swiss system. FC Vaduts are in the Swiss second tier. They actually pay a lot of money to play in that. In that division. They're actually on course for promotion. So FC Vaduts just basically batted everyone every single year. But this year it was a lot more dramatic than usual. They. They almost lost. They. They only won four, three against Escher Auron. But you see, this is because Liechtenstein has no league. It's the only UEFA country without a league. This puts them into Europe every year and every year they win it. They've won 12 in a row. And this is. Yeah, number 52 for the FC Verdots.

[Max Rushden]

Many congratulations. Did they have any. How many Lichtenstein are in their team? How many? That's the key question.

[Paul Watson]

Well, they're actually, they're a very Lichtenstein heavy team, but the team they're playing against, Eschen Mauren is. Is almost entirely foreigners.

[Ewan Murray]

A lot.

[Paul Watson]

They're like. It's got players from all over the place, including a Brazilian called Fernando Timbo, who you can only imagine is just completely at a loss as to how he found himself in like the mountains of central. Well, it's the mountains of Europe. Right. Just doesn't look like a normal place to be in, does it?

[Max Rushden]

Anyway, look, that said, we've gone on far too long, but there was a lot to cover, so thank you, everybody. Thank you.

[Ewan Murray]

Nikki.

[Nicky Bandini]

Thanks.

[Max Rushden]

Thanks, Paul.

[Paul Watson]

Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

Cheers, Baz.

[Barry Glendenning]

Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

Football Weekly is produced by Tayo Papula and our executive producer is Joel Grove. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Barry Glendenning]

This is the Guardian.