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Arsenal ensure north London is red after Forest fell Liverpool – Football Weekly
00:54:02
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Mark Langdon and Jordan Jarrett-Bryan as Arsenal hammer Spurs 4-1 in the north London derby
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This is the Guardian.
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E
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. What a weekend for Arsenal. First they sit back and watch Liverpool lose at home to Forest and Man City lose at Newcastle. And then in the most inevitable inevitable Eberichiese so close to signing for spurs, goes and scores a hat trick at the Emirates. The goal chasm, something else big between Arsenal and Spurs was is enormous. It took a lovely pass to get it going. But after that it really looked like a Premier League team. Swatting aside Ligue 1 opposition in the Carabao Cup. And while the Liverpool crisis continues and Pep yells at a camera operator, Chelsea move up to second. Are they our best bet for title challengers? Morgan Rodgers scores two for Villa to move them into the top four. Crystal palace spoil Rob Edwards first game in the Wolves dugout. Does Barry know which West Ham goalkeeper played a blinder? And it's incredibly wet in Brighton where Igor Thiago misses a late penalty. We'll do a bit on Ian Wright's comments on Jude Bellingham. And on the World cup draw, Ireland could play Denmark again. How? All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning.
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Hello.
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Hi, Max.
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G
Welcome.
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E
Jordan Jarrett.
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Bryan. Morning, mate.
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And from the Racing Post, Mark Langdon.
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A
Hello.
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G
Hi, Max.
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E
Let's start at the Emirates. We have Jordan, Arsenal, Mark, Tottenham, me, Tottenham, Barry. Neutral James says. Was Eze's phone call to Arteta before signing for spurs the greatest phone call ever made in history? Did he call him or did Arteta call Eze either way, it was Jordan kind of inevitable. I mean maybe he was never that close to signing for spurs and he was always going to go to Arsenal. But the first hat trick in a North London derby since Alan Sunderland in 1978. They've only been four and this was probably his first real star performance for them.
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A
Well, it makes us Arsenal fans feel a lot better if we tell ourselves that he did have Tottenham on one one line and Arsenal on the other line literally turned down Tottenham at the same time as agreeing to join us. And as a song, which I'm sure Mark knows about turning down Tottenham, A is a is a beautiful and at an at song it was inevitable if it did feel that way. For sure it's a brilliant hat trick first of all. And it felt like his coming out moment of like I'm an Arsenal player. Finally it felt like Declan Rice got the winner against United a couple of years ago late on that felt like Declan Rice's you're welcome to the club. And this definitely felt like Eberichi e's moment of like, yeah, I've, I've finally arrived. Three really, really good goals. I will, I'll let Mark dissect how bad spurs were in a second but from a national perspective it was beautiful. And for him to be, I don't really think actually played amazingly well. I think the three goals aside, I thought Eze was okay. I think he's played better in other games and not scored hat tricks. But yeah, it was, it was, it was lovely that he, he got those goals. I think for Arsenal to, to capitalize on the fact that, you know, our so called rivals dropped points the day before and then to smash your rivals in, in that way just made it a perfect weekend.
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E
And Barry, none of those goals are easy like he takes them. His movement, his balance to create the space is just so clever.
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F
Yes, not easy, but very easy. He's so, he's so graceful, he's so nimble. He's one of those footballers who looks like he's playing at a different speed to everyone else if things slow down for him while there's chaos around him now I don't want to take anything away from his performance because it was superb and he probably should have scored more than three goals. Interestingly you say that. I'm. I was surprised when I heard how few hatricks had been scored in the North London Derby. And then I was thinking surely Harry Kane must have scored one. Then I remembered who Harry Kane played for. But yeah, back to a. He's he's things seem to slow down around him but he was afforded so much space in that little area around the edge of the box. Just inside, just outside the. The front of the penalty area. The charity of Rodrigo Benton Ker and Palina in I I don't know where they were like they just left this gaping hole for him to operate in. He didn't smash any of those shots home. They were nice, deft precise touches and wonderful performance from him. Like you I. I don't know how close he was to signing for Tottenham. I think they've more or less announced him, hadn't they? Or they were about to. But Arsenal does look like where he belongs. Although Crystal palace fans may beg to differ.
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E
Yeah, I mean it is worth saying Mark that you know, had the situation been slightly different and he'd signed for Tottenham I don't think that would have made the difference in that.
- [05:48]
G
He might have struggled. Vicario booting it sort of 20 meters above his head with every time he got the ball anyway. I mean Arsenal in midfield just absolutely like dominated Tottenham. They've spent very well in that area. Zubamendi Rice because Rice can do what Paolinia can do in terms of winning the ball back but then has got so much more about his game. Mourinho who started off as that emergency center forward, I think he understands that role well now in terms of almost Havertz esque really in the way that he can drop off and link play. The two wide players caused Tottenham a lot of problems. You expect that from Saka? Maybe not so much Trossard. I mean if I would have said sort of start the season like Trossard would not have been in my kind of best Arsenal 11 by a long way. And I think there were rumors that he could well have left the club in the summer. But you know, his influence on the team in terms of, you know, scoring important goals and just being involved in big moments seems to be there. And yeah, I mean we, we might get on to Tottenham later if we have to but you know, Arsenal dominated and were, were well worthy of the, of the margin of victory just before.
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We get on spurs because I'm going to enjoy that bit as well. I think Mark's right to flag Trossard. He's a player that I actually wasn't too upset hearing that he may be leaving in the summer. I think he's a Moments player. I think he's a brilliant squad player but I had doubts about he could be Arsenal's starting left winger in A team winning the Premier League and he's, he shut me up. I think he's been brilliant this season. I think Timber, I think if Timber can add quality crosses to his game, I think he could be in that conversation as one of the best right backs in the world, because defensively you just can't beat him. He, he, he's so good. Marino was, was, was great as well. HP came in. I don't think you even noticed him. So Gabriel wasn't, wasn't missed in anywhere at all. And I think it's actually a reflection on the quality of the league. If, if, if I'm to be honest, there are other clubs that emerge in the top part of the table. That's kind of a healthy league. I'm not so sure. I think the fact that Man City can't put a run together. The champions are 11th. If spurs would have won yesterday, I think they could have gone third or fourth. So Tottenham are absolutely awful yesterday, but if they'd have won that game, they could have still been pretty high in the, in the table. I'm not so sure that's a good, good thing for, for the league in terms of its, its overall quality. Arsenal fans won't care they won the game. They may win the league. But I think that there's something about the fact that there's so many teams at the top that aren't particularly good that says something about the quality overall of this Premier League.
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E
I mean, it's, it's quite the if.
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F
If to won this game.
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It's a big if. It's. It's a big if.
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F
You asked if. E's phone call to Michael Arteta was the most important ever made. And I've just been Googling President Nixon's phone call from the Oval Office to Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong in 1969 is widely credited with being the most important. Followed by Alexander Graham Bell's first ever phone call to his assistant, Mr. Watson. Come here. I want to see you. So maybe it's top three.
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E
Interesting. Well, I mean, it could be, you know, Dave in Dagenham's call, sort of talk sport, you know, the Tottenham season tick holder. Dagenham's the wrong choice, isn't it? Scott says, as a Spurs fan, I'm pleased to see we're finally taking some of that home form into away games. It isn't just that they lost, Mark, and it isn't just that they lost heavily. But honestly, just. And I understand, you know, Thomas Frank has looked at those squads and said we're not as good as them so we need to be tight and win second balls and set pieces and blah blah, blah. But just watching every time they get a free kick, just Vicario ushering everyone forward and going, I've seen Cambridge do this against Man United in the FA Cup. Like that's sort of what I was watching.
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G
Yeah. I mean just in terms of sort of spicy phone calls. The one my dad sort of gave to me at half time was kind of up there. Yeah. I mean it was a cowardly way to try to play football and you know, the players will have to take some flak but I think it does rest at the shoulders of the manager. You can't charge Barcelona ticket prices and then serve up Brentford football. He won't survive the season carrying on like that, you know. And it is on him to try to get the team to play in a more progressive manner. I mean against PSG right at the start of the season, the super cup, they played the same formation, it was a back five and Kudos played closer to Richarlison but there was intent when she got the ball to try to do something and that wasn't there in this match. Pick what seven defensive minded players. You know, you look at that back five and you think, well, if you're going to play with a wing back then Pedro Poro has to be one of those to try to sort of get the team up the pitch. The quality he's got with his crosses and then you know, Ben Tancore and Paulinha as a midfield too with five defenders I think is outrageous. And there's no, it's no surprise that they can't progress the ball up the pitch when you're playing that defensively. If you look at the fourth goal, I think Jed Spence starts with a throw in, in a pretty progressive position. Sort of halfway into the Arsenal half, it goes all the way back to Vicario. Does one of those sort of silly little chips that he does with his left foot. Arsenal win the header and then it' about four on two or something like that. If you got Romero and Van De Ven at the back, I think you have to trust them to be good enough. I mean they are two very good defenders. Romero must be one of the best ball playing center backs in the Premier League. And to not try to use that like I said at the top there, it's cowardly sort of way to play like Thomas Frank. That performance at City was really exciting. When they went there were aggressive, played counter attacking football. It's Got progressively worse. And you know, I would be less angry if I hadn't seen this sort of time and time again. But I mean, they struggled like this against Wolves at home and look how many points wolves have got. So was it any surprise that Arsenal away was pretty much the same story.
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F
We have in the past? And I think with some justification, although Arsenal fans disagree or some do, that Michael Arteta approaches games, he's too cautious, too cowardly. But I was shocked by this from Thomas Frank because he clearly set out to not lose. But even though the first 35 minutes were a bit of a non event as a game, it never ever looked like spurs were not going to get beaten in this game. And yeah, it was just spineless. Yeah, I was shocked by the negative approach from Spurs.
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E
Yeah. And look, we'd seen Sunderland take the game to Arsenal previously. I know like, like home and away is different. It was their lowest XG since records began 0.06. I'm sure that it was their lowest last time against Chelsea. I'm really interested. I don't know what you think, Jordan, that Mark said, you know, he won't survive the season. Possibly because you sort of think there is part of me that is like, it's only 12 games, he needs time. He's notoriously slow starter. But like we said in the preview pod, if he wins this game, that is so massive for him. Right. But losing this game in this manner, the pressure is so on. They've got PSG away next.
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G
Looking forward to that one.
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E
Yeah, I'm fair. Like the question itself, how quick. How bad can it get? How quickly? Because Tottenham surely can't replace. I'm sort of surprised we're even having that conversation.
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A
Me too. But I'm hearing from some of my spurs fans that they're not, you know, Frank out, but the conversation around, as Marcus said, how long he's. He's got or how long he's got to turn this around is. Is. Is a conversation which is surprising to me. In our Guardian season preview, I had spurs finishing third. Not because I rate spurs, but because I rate him really highly. And I thought that the force of Frank will outpower the. The spursiness of spurs. But he's struggling. He's struggling and I would be stunned if he didn't get the season. I think if you can get some players back and he can, he can implement his way, it might be a slow burn, it might get worse before it gets better. I would stick with him. I think he's a brilliant manager. Given time and the right resources. I think he can do a good job. But there is a conversation around whether that leap from your Brentfords, your Bournemouths, your Brightons to a topped club. Is that leap for most managers just to leap too far? I still have faith that he will turn it around but it's not looking good.
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G
The underlying data which Frank will be fully aware of given that he was at Brentford and he's referenced XG previously on Expected goal difference but Tottenham are bottom three with that the only teams worse are West Ham and Burnley. So like this isn't like a one off. This has happened now for most of the season, I would say nine or 10 matches and Nuno wasn't given that long and sort of for the same kind of reasons. And while they're not new owners, it is like a new kind of leadership team right at the top of the club and I don't think they will want to be associated with this type of football for too much longer.
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E
Sure, but what would you do, Mark? I mean you're the season ticket holder here.
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G
Well, I'd stick with Frank for now because I think eu, you have to try something, don't you? Otherwise you just end up jumping from manager to manager. But I would say if in the next sort of four to six weeks there, there aren't signs of improvement and Solankin, Kulusevsky, when they return will make a difference to that attack. But there's only so much you can do if the tactic is to like just hoof the ball forward and like Richarlison's goal was a delightful finish but you know, it does, does come from like a tackle which was about the best thing that Tottenham did all day.
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F
The one thing I'd say in Tottenham's favorite is, and it's. I'm clutching at straws here I think is the fact that they, they do have some really key players out injured but I think the fact that those players were injured before the season started or very, very early in the season. I can't remember exactly when Madison did.
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E
His name before pre season, pre season.
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F
Is that it tends to be forgotten that they're injured and you know that they're huge losses. Kulusevsky and Madison and Solanke, not to a certain extent I suppose, but people seem to have forgotten about them so say by comparison last season when Arsenal had various players dropping like flies. We were constantly aware of these absences because we saw it happen. And I could be talking cobblers but it crossed my mind.
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E
I think the interesting thing would be the, the. These players are not used to playing these tactics. You know, these are sort of, you know, kudas. And I suppose he plays West Ham, so maybe he is. But you know, like Javi Simmons, all these guys who are really good aren't used to playing that. And if they lose faith in the manager because if you're not getting results, it's a bit like the conversation you've had about Jose and Conte before that. You just go, hang on, this is what we're doing. We're just waiting for Kevin Danso to jog up and hurl another one in the box. This isn't why, you know, I was the best player in my school slash academy, slash country, blah blah, blah. Anyway, we'll. It does look like Arsenal in great position for the title. I mean I think a lot of us had written Liverpool out of the title race before this game. But they lost three nil at home to Nottingham Forest. They've lost six games already this season. I have said it before and it doesn't mean you can't analyze their games, but I am just one voice. But I'm giving them a total pass for the whole season because of Diogo Jota's death. Other people are less sympathetic, but I think it is worth referencing every time we talk about them. But Jordan, this was a brilliant win for Nottingham Forest. Their biggest ever at Anfield and for Sean Dyce, you know, for a manager to come in and get a result like this is just enormous.
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A
And it should have been more. They had the legitimate goal in my opinion ruled out as well. It should have been worse. I think Liverpool started the game really well. They had a period in first like 30 minutes I would say where they looked maybe less than that. They looked, they looked like they were, you know, back to. Back to themselves. They were moving the ball pretty well. I thought they were getting forward well, they, they looked okay but it's just that thing of the minute, you get a sucker punch at the other end. It kind of just deflates all confidence in what. In what you've been trying to build towards and for that gave Forest the confidence to be like, we can, we can win this. They won there last year as well. So they seem to in recent years like, like playing at Anfield but massive in for Forest. But I think from a Liverpool perspective it's quite embarrassing and I think you framed the question correctly. I think I actually had Liverpool still in the title race. I think Arsenal's win yesterday, it at Liverpool are done now if they weren't done before they, they're definitely done now and their. Their battle now is to try and keep in the top four. And similarly conversations around Frank's future at Spurs. I am starting to hear Liverpool fans talking about actually can Arnis slot turn this around and the idea that you've won a Premier League in your first year the previous season isn't seeming to hold much truck with Liverpool fans because they say the ones I'm speaking to that was last year when Liverpool football club you can't lose six out of 12 league games. That's half your that just can't happen and they're not seeing any signs that they believe he can turn it around. So that'll be a conversation I'm sure will develop in the next couple of. Couple of weeks if they continue to lose games but from a Forest perspective huge win they needed that. Deutsche needed that as well and I think they'll, they'll. They'll kick on from, from here on in.
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E
I mean how much Grace Barry does winning in a Premier League give you? Surely it gives you a. A season for goodness sake.
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F
I would think it should but football fans and a lot of club owners are very very impatient and intolerant of failure. I've no idea how the head guys at Fenway Sports Group are feeling about this. Probably not particularly happy I I had written Liverpool's title chances off but I didn't see this coming out like a 3 nil hiding at home which as Jordan says could have been worse. I did hear some Liverpool fans just to touch on what you were saying about Diogo Jota. I heard some Liverpool fans I think can't remember it was on TV anyway but they were saying that they, they think Anfield should stop singing the Diogo Jota song on the 2028 minutes is it of every home game because they're starting to think it might be getting in the players heads this game they were very dominant for the first 20 minutes and then things went south for them. That could be a complete coincidence but I just thought it was worth commenting on. But Virgin Van Dyke spoke after the game about them losing battles not winning second balls. There's too many senior players in that team just not performing Virgil being one of them. Ibrahim, Kanate Mo Salah. The new signings haven't worked out yet or most of them haven't so I don't they won't win the title. It would take an absolute miracle for anyone to stop Arsenal I think but what degree of failure is acceptable I suppose is the question.
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E
Alexander Rezak, the first Liverpool player in Premier League history to end on the losing side in each of his first four starts for the club. Six defeats in seven in the league for Arna Sozman. I mean that is since you forget they won their first five Mark. I mean it seems so long ago but what do you make of the Liverpool situation?
- [21:28]
G
I mean you mentioned Isak there. I mean he, he was terrible on, on Saturday. Like doesn't feel. Feel like he fits into that team and I know that he missed pre season but I mean we're coming up to. It's nearly December now. Like the idea that he shouldn't be in rhythm. He just doesn't at the moment. You know, early days. But at the moment he just doesn't feel like he fits into that team really. I think that the selection's a mess. Like if you think that they kind of ended up with Sabo right back, Gravenberg at center back, like that sort of feels like a manager panicking and, and not quite knowing what he's doing or unsure of what he's trying to do. All the signings really have been poor. You know, Wirtz didn't start. I think Kirkez has been very vulnerable at left back and then Salah completely off his game. There was one moment in the second half when he went to cross the ball with the outside of his boot and he just went off the wrong part and just sort of flew in the opposite direction and he's been completely unsure of himself. That relationship with Trent Alexander Arnold was one of the reasons why Liverpool were so strong last season. So I think his absence is being felt. Those that are questioning slot I think is more about the case of like first season. Was it mainly like Jurgen Klopp what he was building towards and he was kind of able to just add a bit and now he's got to do it by himself and you know it's not happening. So I think that's the reasons why. But on Forest they were back to kind of being how they were under Nuno Murillo particularly at center back was just outstanding the whole game. The way he blocks everything. Yeah, really a defender I enjoy watching.
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E
Yeah. Elliot Anderson as well. Made one brilliant block, didn't he? From McAllister. Just a date for your diary then. Tottenham Liverpool 20th of December, 5:30. It'd be absolute terrible. Be the worst.
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G
Merry Christmas.
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E
Merry Christmas anyone's ever seen. Look, you never know. Liverpool could click, couldn't they? After Christmas we shall see. That'll do for part one. Part two will begin at St. James's Park.
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C
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E
Welcome to Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. If you like cricket and you like podcasts and you have time in your hands because test matches aren't very long anymore, why not listen to the Guardian Ashes Weekly featuring incredibly urbane and affable host. I didn't write. I did write this. This the latest episode with Jeff Lemon, Ali Martin and Jim Wallace looks back at whatever that was in Perth. Search Guardian Ashes Weekly.
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F
I have to say, Max, I. I listened to your Ashes preview. I was out running and I had it on and I was. I try not to listen to podcasts that are going to make me laugh when I'm out running because it's not conducive. Yeah, but I was chuckling away to myself at the positivity from the English contingent before a ball had a bald or a coin tossed.
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E
Just for the record, Barry, you know, I do have a podcast which is intended to make you laugh, but I'm glad that the other one that isn't intended to make you laugh did make you laugh. But there we are. Let's go to St James's Park. Newcastle 2, Manchester City 1. David says Manchester City are looking propitious, aren't they? I checked. It's the closest word to being the opposite of ominous. Yeah, I mean they lost to Newcastle just at the time when we thought thought this was the time they were going to turn the screw.
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F
Well, that didn't Pep say they were going to turn the screw. His big message on Friday was the season starts now. We've had our international breaks. We were 11 games in this. This is when the season starts.
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E
And well, well, that camera operator took it in the ear, didn't it? I thought maybe he was saying. I said it started here. Or maybe he said you are so, so, so, so good at your camera work. Anyway, it was a really good game this mark. Lots of incredibly, you know, early sort of the misses got worse and worse. Did they? Or maybe not because Harlan's miss was sort of bad for him. Barnes is amazing. And then Foden you think well that's definitely going in the corner. So you just thought no one will score in this game.
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G
Foden's I think was. Was the worst of of them. And if that goes in, maybe you have got a different game. I think you mentioned it there just how you know, just a really fun match to watch. Probably the game of the weekend. Just in. In terms of the quality on show. Harvey Barnes is winning goal. I don't actually think there's been enough credit given to that one because it's not an easy skill the way that he kind of flicks. Flicks it in.
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E
I agree.
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G
I wouldn't. I wouldn't be too harsh on. On Manchester City. Like this is not going to be. I don't think a City side that can go and win 12, 13 in a row. But I didn't think the performance was. Was, was that bad. I think it you know suggests that they will. I think they'll be Arsenal's closest challengers come the end of Odin scores or Harlan scores them chances. Then maybe you've got a different game like Newcastle away is a. Is a tough match and you go back to was it August or September when Arsenal sort of won. That game feels like a sort of pivotal moment maybe in Arsenal season. And yeah, I just think it's a really hard place to go. Newcastle very aggressive in. In midfield and could have gone either way. And Newcastle won and I enjoyed it.
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E
What a lovely review. I. I think also Jordan man City should have had a penalty there. I I mean I don't like Var. Then you sort of think well sort of. Fabian Share has absolutely taken out Phil Foden and I know there is something about if you kick the ball a long way or if it's a shot or a perceived shot that it's sort of less likely to be given than if he just takes a little touch. But it's. It is a Blatant. It's such an obvious foul. I just can't sort of be watching it going, how is that not. How have people not giving out the penalty? What's going on?
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A
It's a shocker. It's a shocker. It's a blatant penalty. It's not even a debate. It's a clear penalty. And you're right for someone to see that and to not straight away be like, what's the penalty? It's not. It's not even debate. It's not like a contention. It's a clear penalty. For them to not get it is a shocker. I wonder if that was the reason why Pep Guardiola was so animated at the end of the match or if it was because he felt that the winning goal was offside. I couldn't quite work out why.
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E
Everyone seems to say he felt that Donna Rumor was fouled for the second goal.
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A
Okay.
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E
But I don't know. I don't think he was. I thought Rob Green was on Match today, so explained it quite well going. I don't think he was. But I mean Pep has. Pep is right to. If he was going to be angry and I don't think it's the camera operator's fault, but if he, you know, like that is a penalty and that just changed that game. I guess it is.
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A
And it. It probably does change the game as well. But I. I think there's a bigger issue with City that everyone was waxing lyrical about. City after the Liverpool City are back. Watch out. Arsenal. City are coming. Although it was a really good win in that Liverpool game, Liverpool could have had a couple of goals. I mean, they had a legitimate goal ruled out, I felt, and then a couple other chances to score in that game. I. I don't think City. I'm just not having City. And what I mean by that is they'll win lots of games, but they're still very easy to create chances against. They concede a lot of goals still and you know, it's been flagged before. But if Har doesn't score, they do seem to struggle to kind of get enough goals to kind of get maximum points from games. So as. As much as I think they were maybe unlucky, I agree with Mark. I thought City play quite well in this match. I don't think they're as good as people were making them out to be. And this. This defeat wasn't a massive surprise for me. Just quickly on Newcastle, I'm glad they won this game one because I'm an Arsenal fan, but also because there was a. It was talk starting around Eddie Howe and whether he had reached a ceiling with Newcastle. And I'm not quite sure he has yet, so. And I like him. So I'm really glad that he. He kind of dismissed those kind of naysayers about how well he could continue to do with Newcastle with. With a big win against. Against team like Manchester City.
- [30:32]
E
Yeah. And Baz has mentioned it before but you know, that's his first win against Pepin. 19 attempts. I think the second time in two decades that Newcastle have beaten man City. So like lots of monkeys up, lots of backs there worth talking about. Harvey Barnes for Scotland Barry.
- [30:48]
A
Or not.
- [30:48]
F
Yeah.
- [30:49]
E
Or not. Or not.
- [30:50]
G
You don't have to.
- [30:51]
E
Doesn't sound like you want to.
- [30:54]
F
I wasn't expecting that if I'm honest. I'm. I'm aware that there are. There is talk suggesting he could declare he's eligible for Scotland. He has an England cap, but it's from a friendly. So he could do a reverse Rice and leave England and take up the saltire. I didn't approve of Declan Rice doing it, so I probably shouldn't approve of Harvey Barnes doing it. But I think going from Ireland or Scotland to play for England is a completely different proposition from leaving England to go from play for Ireland or Scotland. If Scotland are willing to have him. Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It seems a bit. You've just qualified. Oh, now I'll come and help you out. You know, maybe if he'd been there from the start of the campaign. But yeah, it. It wouldn't sit right with me, I think. But assorted Scottish fans may emphatically disagree because he's a very good player.
- [31:53]
E
Yeah. I haven't checked his interview. Sort of pre them qualifying, you know, if like years ago when I'm English and I'm, you know, he's got like a tattoo of Stuart Pierce and Winston Churchill on his stomach.
- [32:04]
F
He doesn't spend his leisure time walking around Jasmine painting roundabouts.
- [32:10]
E
But. But when he was interviewed about it after Scotland qualified, he like haven't really thought about it but you know, it's a great win for the lads. You know, like I. Yeah, exactly.
- [32:21]
G
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:22]
E
Chelsea are second. They beat Burnley 2 nil, 6 points behind Arsenal. Are they our only hope? Obi Wan? What do you think, Mark? I mean this looked like a game they were going to win. I think we've said it a lot of time. Quite difficult to analyze. But are they starting to take shape?
- [32:37]
G
Yeah, I mean massive game isn't there on at the weekend if they be beat Arsenal within three points. So you can't. Yeah, I don't think the title's done yet. I sort of always disagree with those. That kind of one week it's over and another week it's back on like we are. You know, there's still plenty of games to go. I think Chelsea probably tactically are you know, one of the most flexible and interesting teams in the league. I think Mareska really thinks about, you know, the. What they do with and without the ball probably in more detail or as much detail as anyone else in the Premier League. And they had a rough sort of first 15, 20 minutes in this game. You wonder whether Burnley might catch them cold. But like it's so much width to. To the team with Neto and Gittens they stretch teams and then you know the long ball from Tosin over the top and eventually that, that proved dividends like they did it without Caicedo and Santos came in and played very well and they just have got. I don't know if you heard this match. They've got a lot of players and so the sport depth is, is significant and that, that, that is going to, going to sort of stand them in good stead. I think he, Maresca's coming up with like the makings of what his best team is and one player would just shout out would be Cucurea who brings that team to life with the way that he's able to come into midfield and kind of do exactly what Maresca wants of him. And you know his influence on the Chelsea team from sort of nominally left back, you know, like you see it in newspapers and websites. He's like starting elevens now and like Kukureya is like playing here on this left back position but he probably spends about 5 minutes of the entire 90 minutes playing in that position. So I don't know if there's a, there's a way that kind of us journalists need to portray what sort of football lineups are now because oh no.
- [34:25]
E
You can't, you can't take away the.
- [34:27]
G
Could we have a moving gift? Could you have like a moving gift maybe a moving gift online to sort of show where they go as the match.
- [34:35]
E
It depends who, right? If it's Paulina and Ben Tancur, it doesn't have to move at all. Can stay old school.
- [34:42]
F
I think the main talking point about Chelsea has to be Cole Palmer stubbing his toe.
- [34:46]
G
Oh yes.
- [34:46]
F
And then the revelation from Enzo Maresca. That he gets up in the middle of the night several times and to go to the toilet and constantly bangs his head, his legs and everything. I'm just. I was. That really had me thinking, what. What is he doing?
- [35:06]
E
Does he live on a boat?
- [35:07]
F
It has to be that. He either lives on a boat in very choppy waters. Obviously he stays in a lot of hotels where maybe the rooms aren't, you know, as familiar to him as he.
- [35:18]
E
Lives with the borrowers. That's his issue, isn't it? Living in a matchbox.
- [35:23]
A
Just quickly, I think Mark mentions the game on the weekend between the top two. Well, it could be the top two by. By the point of kickoff. I. I mean, I said I wasn't having City. I'm definitely not having Chelsea. I think that they are getting better. I think they're a good team, but in terms of a genuine title challenger, I know they're second. The people will love this. I don't take them seriously in that regard. I think if Arsenal can win that game without their best defender, probably no striker still away at Chelsea, I. I think Arsenal can go to that Christmas period and Christmas program. Very, very confident. Or trying to start to pull away.
- [35:56]
E
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like if you're not having City or Chelsea, it sounds like you've given Arsenal, you know, you're not giving Arsenal the title, but you're not having anyone else. So by default there. Villa 121 at Leeds. Morgan Rogers, the first player Villa player to score twice at Ellen Road in a Premier League game since Gareth Southgate in January 2000. The last time he took off the handbrake, I'm guessing. Arise. And Gareth didn't score a free kick like that. He's a brilliant player, Morgan Rogers. Isn't he, Barry?
- [36:23]
F
Yeah, he's fantastic. And that free kick. There was two goals in this game that I had to constantly rewind and watch again because I wasn't quite sure what had happened. The first one in this game, which was real goal of the season contender that leads go somehow went in through a series of ricochets and woodwork and whatnot. And I think everyone seemed to be waiting for it to be disallowed for something or other, but it wasn't, and I don't think it should have been. But yeah, that was real scruff. Bag of gold. But the Rogers free kick was just, just superb because he. He didn't hit it at all hard. Joe Hart gave a very good breakdown of it on Match of the Day too, last night. And the technique Just to leave the Leeds goalkeeper completely flat footed. But the Leeds goalkeeper didn't really do anything wrong. It's. He's just completely deceived by the manner in which Rogers took up, stepped up to take this goal. I think Villa have now, they won six out of the last seven in the Premier League and they're winning these games with a striker who hasn't scored in any of those games who's only scored one goal this season, Ollie Watkins. So very impressive from them and very impressive from Morgan Rogers.
- [37:44]
E
Yeah, I mean Leeds were okay in this game, Mark, but you, you fear for them. You really do I guess if they don't win their games at Ellen Road.
- [37:51]
G
Yeah, I, I think it's been like much of the season when it's been competitive and just been moments really in both boxes that have let them down. But if you look at like the next three matches man, City, Chelsea and Liverpool. And okay, Liverpool not as strong as they were but that's not a pleasant sort of free fixtures from which you want to be starting to take any point. So I think in terms of the fixture list they've had a comfortable enough start and the schedule does get sort of harder. So I think they've played well but just haven't picked up enough points. And like this was one of them games where they much like sort of the spurs game where they didn't deserve to lose necessarily but they did just due to the quality of Rodgers on this occasion and Leeds just haven't got that in the final third. And you know it's looking quite dodgy for them really. I hadn't considered them as, as being as sort of low down the table as what they are because they seem to be playing okay. And it's the other end with, with Villa. I looked at the table last night, I couldn' believe they were four the last time I looked. I thought they were about 17. So it's a, it's a crazy table at the moment.
- [38:57]
E
It is. Look, Morgan Rogers scored two. Jude Bellingham scored at the weekend as well to get a point for Real Madrid. You want to obviously you talk about those two because they are vying for the tenure for England under Thomas Tuchel at the World Cup. Jordan, you wanted to talk about Jude Belling. We haven't talked about it yet actually. Ian Wright's comments that some people are not ready for, in his words, are not ready for a black superstar. This was after the kind of backlash after Bellingham kind of complained about being substituted. But I mean we talked about it on that party sort of just looked like a guy who was a bit frustrated, then walked off. Righty said, he goes out there, he performs, he does what he does. It's too uppity for these people. They all love n' Golo Kante. He's a humble black man, gets on with what he's doing. But if you get a Paul Pogba or a Jude Bellingham and you get that kind of energy, that does not sit well with people. Someone like Jude frightens these people because of his capability and his. The inspiration he can give. If you're outspoken, black and playing to that level and not caring, that frightens certain people. It's a tiring exercise to speak about. What did you make of what right.
- [39:56]
A
He said, I. I thought it was really appropriate that it came from. That education, came from Ian Wright, because Ian Wright was. Was the Bellingham 20, 30 years ago. Coming from him, I just thought was so great. Ian Wright is a massive part of the reason why I support Arsenal, right, Because Ian Wright, right, he looked like the black men that were in my life when I was young, right? My mother has a gold tooth. My father has a gold tooth. The. The black men in my life, many of them had a gold tooth. Ian Wright's from not far from where I'm from in South London. He came into football with an exuberance and an energy when he scored goals. There's the iconic Bogle dance. And those who have Jamaican heritage will know the Bogle dance that I'm referring to. He did things that were disruptive to. To the game. He. He came in and he was seen as quite brash. And I think for him to deliver this, it was a speech on that podcast. No one can deliver that better than him because he was that guy. Ian Wright, he mentioned the Pogba and the Kante comparison, which I thought was perfect. I've also made that comparison for years. In this country, we don't like people who are confident. We don't like people even arrogant. We like people who kind of know their role and can tell. I don't think it was shade on Ngola Kante, but Kante as a black man is seen as the acceptable black man. Humble smiles, gets on with it, cracks on, no trouble, no drama. Happy days. Whereas the Pogba or Bellingham, and there are other figures, I think, in popular culture and sport that I think, that this country struggles with, they don't accept those. Know your role, get back in your box. Just kick a ball and. And crack on with it. And it's something that all black people understand and identify with. And I think it's important also to note that I've heard this phrase, some sections of the media, media are pitching this and pushing this narrative. It's not. It's. It's one journalist and it's one paper doing it at this, at this stage. And Ian Wright named the guy without naming him, and I won't name him, but we know we're talking about. And I think as black people hearing what Ian Wright said on that podcast, we all resonate because we will know that we're not fully accepted in this country. And as the way we are, we can't be our authentic and, and ourselves. And if you are Judy Bellingham, you are confident, you are talented, you've won La Liga, you've won the Champions League, you've won Player of the Year in Germany at the age of 12 or whatever it was. He comes with all these amazing things. He's scoring bicycle kicks at euros to save England from getting knocked out at €2 in the round of 16. All these things are great and people can't handle that. It's a black man doing it. People often compare, oh, yeah, but Beckham, but Gascoigne going, oh, but Rooney. But the difference between those guys that got heat from the media and Bellingham Max is that those individuals did things that to some degree warranted a response. One of those players got sent off for Petrons at a World Cup. One of those players was shutting down the barrel of an ITV camera after a game, you know, berating the nation for the lack of support and was doing things off the field which were not particularly appropriate. One of those guys was going to major tournaments, you know, getting pissed up. Bellingham done none of that. So you have to deduce from the writings of this particular journalist that there's an agenda, that there's an agenda against particular individual. And Ian White's called it out, and I'm glad that he did, because it's not acceptable. But as black people, we understand there's a, there's a way to be in this country. There's a wider discourse around what it means to be English in this country, what it means to be British in this country and who's accepted and who's not, who's allowed to have a white voice and who's allowed to, you know, enjoy the merits and the, the, the, the, the, the great things about being in this country and who's not. And that might feel like it's going beyond football, but I think what's happening to Jude Bellingham isn't about football. It's about the agenda that we feel some people have against black men in particular in this country. And it's not cool.
- [43:49]
E
Sure. That's so interesting. No, it's so interesting. And, and I agree with you that, I mean, I love Rightsy and I think he's such a brilliant broadcaster. I know him a tiny bit and he's wonderful. But when he talks, you definitely listen. Listen. And this isn't a kind of devil's advocate thing at all. But what's important is you. You need to be, you know, you as. As part of the media. We need to be able to criticize Jude Bellingham as the way as we would criticize anybody. Right.
- [44:14]
F
Because.
- [44:14]
E
Because I, I don't think he's been brilliant for England. Yeah, he did score that amazing overhead kick. So you need to have. You need to be able to do that. I suppose no one's saying you can't do that, but that is an in. That is an interesting part of this discussion, I guess. Or they're two. Or you see, they're two separate things.
- [44:28]
A
What, what the irony is is that I think there's a genuine discussion around Bellingham should be in the England 11. I think there's a footballing discussion around that because I think for the brilliant player that he is, I think that positionally he could be quite ill disciplined. And in a system that Southgate and now Tuco have, I think it must be quite annoying if you're Pakaya Saka with the ball and Drew Bellingham is at left back or your Declan Rice looking to punch the ball into them, into your number 10. And Jude Bellingham is, I don't know, you know, getting the ball from, from or behind you. I think at times, the euros, he was all over the place. And it's because he's so good. He knows he can get the ball from. We've all been at school, right, with that guy at school that can get the ball from the keeper, beat four players and score a goal. That's Drew Bellingham. But in a system, I'm not sure that that necessarily works. So there's a fair debate to be had around with a. Drew Bellingham in this 11 actually is A. Is a net positive for England. But that in the writing of this journalist aren't coming through. Through. What I'm reading is, oh, he's, he's. He's problematic. He's trouble. He's not light. It's like none of that stuff has been stood up. It's not been stood up. And it, you can't deduce anything else other than you're picking on this particular person because you have an issue with this individual being so good, being so influential, being so confident, being himself and English. And that for me is I think the essence of what Ian Wright was saying. He said, he said that to, he messaged you. Bellingham said, get ready. And again, as black people, we know what he means. We know what's coming. We know what's coming. As the media though, I think we have to challenge that. This just this journalist is entitled. Sorry, my last point. This journalist is entitled to his view. He's allowed to write what he wants. That's fair enough. But I think we're allowed to call it out and, and recognize with history of Raheem Sterling, Ian Wright, Paul Pogba, other black players. There's something going on here that isn't football related.
- [46:19]
E
All right, that'll do for part two. Part three we'll rattle through the rest of the Premier League games.
- [46:26]
D
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- [47:26]
E
Welcome to part three. The Guardian Football Weekly Crystal palace won 2 nil at Wolves so no new manager bounce for Rob Edwards. Jeremy Pino and Adam Wharton were both so good in this game, Mark.
- [47:35]
G
They were. Yeah, I know. I knew you was going to mention Adam Wharton maxi.
- [47:41]
E
The way he zips the it's the pass before the pass. He's honestly I'm pressing this big Adam Wharton button. He's so good.
- [47:47]
G
I was with a Crystal palace fan last week and I just questioned it. Wasn't. Wasn't my agenda to push. But the kind of. The belief is that maybe he lacks the athleticism to get around the pitch and that's maybe why kind of, you know, Tuchel's not a massive fan and why maybe he's still at Crystal palace and then for one of the goals that he does zip in and win the ball and show that he's capable of doing that. He is a wonderful player. You know, Crystal palace are lucky to have him. And I mean Pino has come in, hasn't played every match, but I think he looked dangerous when he. When he has been on. On the pitch and like Crystal Palace I think is just legitimately a very good team and like they would be in this conversation, I think for like top. It might be top five but the, the problem will be just squad depth. But they're 11 when it's on the pitch is just very, very good. And did see Rob Edwards say that this was like a close game but I mean wolves have one shot on target in, in the 90 minutes and it didn't look that close to me. I didn't think. Yeah.
- [48:49]
E
Rob Edwards says, I know we've lost and everyone will be flattened by it, but I've been here five or six days and I haven't got a magic wand. And I did say this to you yesterday, Barry, but I wish he'd said but I do have a magic wand. And then tried some magic.
- [49:05]
F
I do have magic wand. I left it in Middlesbrough. But it is being. Being ups down should have it by the next game.
- [49:15]
E
Yeah. I mean Wolves are. If they get out of this, it'll be absolutely extraordinary. Bournemouth 2. West Ham too, you know, Bournemouth and Brighton. The weather, it's like horizontal right. Looks so sad, didn't it? It's worth saying. Barry, Callum Wilson. Those two finishes are absolute top level.
- [49:29]
F
Aren't they brilliant the way he chests the ball down for both of them and sort of turned on a proverbial sixpence to. To score really good goals from him. I mean, when West Ham signed him, I thought he's sort of in that Bamford Wilson, Calvert Lewin zone of being quite good but not very good and fairly unreliable. But he. I think he's on performance related pay at West Ham, so he certainly earned whatever he got for that performance. I hope we got plenty. If I was a West Ham fan, I wouldn't really know what to make of this result. It's a good point away from home with Bournemouth, but they were 2 nil up. They left, they sat back. Very cautious approach in the second half, conceded to and were ultimately very lucky not to lose because if it hadn't been for the heroics of Alphonse Fabianski, they would definitely have lost. And yeah, so I, I would say having had a couple of days to. To think about it, West Ham fans would probably say a good point.
- [50:43]
E
Jordan Irohola wanted a penalty, wanted a red card. When for that Max Kilman handball. And I mean I think he has a point as a handball denier myself and not wanting any of his penalized if you slide across the pitch and then just. Just twat it with your hand. I think fair enough. That is a penalty and probably a red, I think.
- [51:01]
A
I think so too. I think he's right in, in calling for that. And again, I think the decision we referred to earlier in the render pods, this was another really, really bad one. It's quite an obvious one. I don't understand how such obvious decisions they're getting. They're getting them wrong. And the only thing I want to say about Ariola on this one is that. And I've kind of got a bit of a manager theme I've realized on this podcast here today. But he's in that he's having a really difficult run of form to be fair. But I think everybody rates him quite highly. But where does he go next? Because you look at the Thomas Frank and those are guys that made that jump up. Do we think that Iriola is really, really good at that level. But if he was to go to a Liverpool next year, say, or Chelsea, that he would struggle. I can't quite place I really rate him, but I. I don't know if it translates. I know Barry, you're a fan of iron as well, but do you think he has it in him to a top six club do?
- [51:52]
F
Well, I very much think he's a Spurs manager in way. Well, that'll ruin him, I think. I think, I think he could whip them into shape. So I'd like. I mean I'm a big Thomas Frank fan, but if Frank did get his cards, then I would like to see Iriola get that job just to see how it would break him.
- [52:14]
G
But it is, I think it is interesting that I. Because I think like Manchester City, if Pep Guardiola decides enough's enough, Iriola would be. Be I think really suited to that man City job just stylistically. But I think when you are a manager that's managed at that level. Like, if Man City draw against West Ham, it might be leading the podcast. And there's sort of 20 minutes going on about how Iriola's not up to the task of managing Manchester City. And you know, he's flawed what he's trying to do. And yet because it's at Bournemouth and I know they've got different resources, but every bad result, like, it's just forgotten about. Unless you. You support Bournemouth and kind of are really involved at kind of a local level, you just. You don't care and just move on. Whereas it's completely different when you're at a Liverpool City and you drop any points. It's. It's always a disaster.
- [53:03]
E
Yeah. I mean, I like the fact that you think this podcast has the power to set the agenda as we do. You know, Thomas Frank be packing away his things already, won't he? To the Amex. Brian beat Brentford 2 1. I think those two penalties are interesting. Barry in the eagle. Tiago, when you do a stutter and then you send the keeper the wrong way, it looks really good. But if you do a stutter and then you just kick it to the keeper, you're just like, is your stutter. Are you stuttering because you have a stutter or you're not? What's the stutter about here, if you understand the question?
- [53:33]
F
Are you saying Igor Thiago is a scat man? He stutters when he sings?
- [53:39]
E
Basically, yeah.
- [53:40]
F
I don't know. I do know Keith Andrews afterwards was complaining about the amount of time it takes to take a penalty, you know, with all the faffing around, and maybe he has a point. But then, isn't Keith Andrews the coach who recently decided to make multiple substitutions between the penalty being awarded to a rival team and that penalty being taken? So, you know, either or. Get off the pot, Keith. I can't remember the game in question, but I do remember Keith Andrews doing that. And I think, oh, that was clever. I'm fairly certain it was him. But look, sometimes you miss penalties, and that was a costly one.
- [54:26]
E
It was, yeah. A wonderful goal from Danny Welbeck. The ball from Minta, who is a really exciting player, was great in the finish.
- [54:32]
F
Brilliant cross.
- [54:32]
E
Absolutely. Absolutely perfect. Perfect. Get him on the plane. Finally, Fulham 1, Sunderland nil. What do you make of this, Baz?
- [54:39]
F
Very little. I saw it in its entirety. Another just Rain. That's. That's my overriding rain. Rain, rain. Miserable day beside the Thames. Well, a game that was very low on quality. Neither team was anywhere near their Best and Fulham nicked it towards the end with a. Another brilliant cross from Chuck Wiesey and Raul Jimenez was on hand to stab the ball home. Fulham probably deserved it, I know. No complaints here.
- [55:11]
E
Before we wrap up, I did say we're going to talk about the World cup draw. We haven't really given it a lot of time, but we said it before, Barry. But Ireland, we will obviously do it in the international break and it'll be a big one. But Ireland could face Denmark.
- [55:22]
F
Well, I did say in the last pod that Ireland, you know, just there is a parallel universe where Ireland are just constantly playing Denmark, Denmark. And then I checked Ireland haven't played Denmark for six years.
- [55:38]
E
It was very focused. Barry was.
- [55:41]
F
It was roundabout between 2017, 19 where they played each other twice a week and all the games ended in draws. Ireland have a job of work to do in Czech Republic first before we could even think about playing Denmark or. Who is it, Norris? Macedonia.
- [56:03]
E
Yes.
- [56:03]
F
And we, we have previous with Macedonia as well. They've. They've caused us pain in the past. So if we do see off the Czech Republic, we'll be playing one of two bogey teams. But then when you're a team like Ireland, you tend to have a lot of bogey teams.
- [56:20]
E
Wells have to get past Bosnia heights to go governor and then they will play the winners of Italy or Northern Ireland. So not an easy way to get to the World Cup. Anyway, that is for March. We can worry about that later. And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Jordan.
- [56:32]
A
Cheers, mate.
- [56:33]
E
Congratulations on the title. Thank you, Mark.
- [56:35]
G
Thanks, Max.
- [56:35]
E
Commiserations for everything. Thank you, Barry.
- [56:37]
F
Thank you.
- [56:38]
E
Keep on Running. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove and Jesse Howard. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens will be back on Wednesday.
- [56:51]
A
This is the Guardian. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?
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