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Ashes Weekly: Who are the 100 greatest Ashes cricketers?
00:49:31
In the first episode of a new series, Ashes Weekly, Max Rushden and Geoff Lemon are joined by Emma John and Ali Martin to discuss the Guardian’s top 100 Ashes cricketers and debate the merits of the top 10. Subscribe to Ashes Weekly to get new episodes
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- [00:00]
Jeff Lemmon
This is the Guardian.
- [00:10]
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- [01:07]
Max Rushton
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Ashes Weekly. I'm Max Rushton and for the next couple of months we'll be doing pods during the Ashes as England win yet another Test series down under without any major concerns. Chex Notes haven't won a test here since January 2011, but there is always hope. This episode is the pilot, so it doesn't count, but we're releasing it anyway to add some intense broadcasting pressure to our panelists. It also coincides with the Guardian releasing its top 100 ashest players of all time, from when it began in the 1880s up to the present day. If it's anything like the top 1, 400 footballers, this the paper does each year, readers and listeners will not take it too seriously and lose their minds because WG Grace is ahead of Kevin Peterson. There is controversy in this list, right at the top. This is the Guardian Ashes Weekly. Joining me on the panel today are cricket columnist Emma John. Hi, Emma.
- [01:50]
Jeff Lemmon
Hi.
- [01:51]
Emma John
Hello.
- [01:52]
Max Rushton
Our cricket correspondent, Ali Martin.
- [01:54]
Ali Martin
Hello, Max. Good to see you, mate.
- [01:55]
Max Rushton
And Guardian Australia's Jeff Lemmon. Hey, Jeff. You're on this journey for the whole time with me. Thank you.
- [02:00]
Jeff Lemmon
That's it, limbering up, getting ready for a long series. Stress fractures have cleared up and I'm good to go.
- [02:05]
Max Rushton
Good stuff. You're fine. I just want to talk about 2005. You're of course welcome to steer me into the present day. So, look, what we're going to do is bring you previews and recaps of all five tests we'll do a proper preview of the first tests. A bit closer to the first test, but just briefly, Ali, I mentioned it in the intro. We haven't won a test here since what, January 2011. We've got hope this time, haven't we?
- [02:27]
Ali Martin
There is a little bit of hope also. You've got to remember that that last Ashes series in Australia, Stuart Broad unilaterally avoided it. So the record's not quite as bad when you factor that in. England will be coming out with a fresh game plan. They're going to be doing it differently, you know, whether the results are different as a result of that, who's to say? But they're certainly coming out with a different approach. Hyper aggressive with the bat and with a decent battery of fast bowlers if they can stay fit. So it looks like a solid template for what should be a great series.
- [02:52]
Max Rushton
Yeah, it's a big if that staying fit. I mean, I guess, Jeff, you know, the news out of the Australia camp is that your mob are all incredibly, all of them, almost all of them over 30 years old. Can you imagine being over 30? I certainly can't.
- [03:05]
Jeff Lemmon
No, I mean, who can? I have to go a long way back to imagine being over 30 and it seems quite nice in retrospect, but I suppose aside from Cameron Green, everybody is. But look, you live in Australia now. You know how that works. You watched Geelong win a premiership in 2022 with the oldest team that ever turned out in the grand final. Old blokes win stuff, that's the Dan Christian motto and it may hold true here.
- [03:28]
Max Rushton
Emma, what are the vibes telling you ahead of this one?
- [03:30]
Emma John
I am keeping my hopes up because I'm heading out for the Adelaide Test and so I could really do with it not being 2 nil down or, sorry, 2 nil up for Geoff's man by the time I get out there. Because I've actually had a pretty bad run with going to see England in Australia. Yeah, some of my worst.
- [03:49]
Max Rushton
What's your record? Have you got any wins?
- [03:51]
Emma John
I've got no wins so far.
- [03:53]
Jeff Lemmon
No wins.
- [03:53]
Max Rushton
Good stuff. Okay.
- [03:54]
Emma John
I'm completely scratched and some of my worst cricket watching moments, I mean, I've genuinely shed tears at the whacker sitting under a tree at the end of a terrible defeat. So I, I, I'm just hoping for a happier time.
- [04:08]
Jeff Lemmon
I've shed tears at the Wacker. Just being at the wacker when it's like 44 degrees and you're, you're trying to work from a tent with no Fans and the TVs don't work and everyone's laptops are overheating. It was not always the most pleasant place to be.
- [04:20]
Max Rushton
Yeah, I think I'm O from 2i. I was at the Wacker when Gilchrist scored that century in about eight balls, and then I was at the MCG when Scott Boland got about 25 wickets in four minutes, the last time that England lost. So, look, maybe. Maybe this will be different. Right, let's talk about the top 100, which you can see the whole list on the guardian.com. ali, I did want you to do a full countdown, like Bruno Brooks on Top of the Pops, but actually reading out 100 names would take about 10 minutes. Ali, how do you go about putting this list together?
- [04:48]
Ali Martin
How did I go about. No, Max, this is. This. You're not responsible for this. No, no. So this is a desk production. This was commissioned by Steve McMillan, our sports features editor, with a decent split of English and Australian. And, yeah, each person was asked to submit their top 50. And using that, with 50 points for your first vote and 1 point for your 50th vote, all the votes were put together and we crunched the numbers in the office or other people did it, I didn't do it. And it produced what I think is a pretty interesting list and a pretty fascinating top result, I'd say.
- [05:24]
Max Rushton
Yeah, we'll get to that. Obviously, people can look at the website, so it's not really a spoiler, but nice to add to the tension for this. Sometimes, Emma, when I do the top 50 footballers, I get them and I go, okay, I've done that. And obviously you're doing a million things. And I realise, like, I've left Lionel Messi out, so I don't know, like, you can be honest, when you got to your list, you were like, oh, no, there's no both of them in there, or something like that.
- [05:45]
Emma John
Well, me, yes. I mean, I did have to have a couple of goes. I think for me, the hardest thing is the relative merits of, you know, the greats of the past who none of us have seen. And you're just having to go on the things you've read. Maybe, you know, if you're really lucky, you've managed to see a little bit of footage of, you know, somebody batting in some sort of cine reel from 100 years ago, but really you're just going on stories, what you've read, you know, that the statistics don't all correlate to each other. You know, pre war cricket, very different to Post war cricket. So it's a fun exercise, let's put it that way.
- [06:24]
Max Rushton
Jeff?
- [06:25]
Jeff Lemmon
No.
- [06:25]
Max Rushton
Darren Gough? No. David Warner? No. Merv Hughes? No. Merv Hughes. I mean on moustache alone, that's a disgrace, surely.
- [06:33]
Jeff Lemmon
Kind of on a vibe space as I suppose I did my fifth partly on vibes. It was looking at the list and thinking who, like which names stir something in me which might be recognition. And like I really wanted to vote for George Bonner which I didn't end up doing in the end because he played in the 1880s and was just famous for being huge and handsome and smacking the ball a really long way. His numbers are shithouse but he looked great. Like he's a good story and in the end I couldn't justify it. But there are quite a few votes where it was that I had where it was more based on what do I like about this player's story more than just what were their numbers? The numbers don't stack up across areas.
- [07:10]
Max Rushton
Sure. Is David Boone in?
- [07:12]
Jeff Lemmon
Yes, David Boone's in there but he's important because he was sort of with Steve War, the face of the renewal in 1989. He's when Australian cricket goes from that decade of being pretty bad to turning it around and then surges on from there and he takes the catch, the hat trick catch for Shane Warne at the mcg. So almost on that alone, you've got to give Bernie a spot.
- [07:34]
Ali Martin
Sure.
- [07:34]
Max Rushton
And you know, however many cans of VB that he would crush on a 24 hour flight, etc. And it's interesting, Emma, you sort of mentioned those, those players from the part and you know, there are names that listeners will probably sort of know but not really know. You know, I, I sort of heard the name Tip Foster but I couldn't tell you anything about Tip Foster or you know, I thought Johnny Briggs, who's holding up the whole thing up 100 was a, you know, went from child TV stardom in the, you know, the north and the UK in the 80s for propping up this chart. So like if the of those era cricketers, you know, tell us a bit.
- [08:09]
Emma John
Well, I mean, I think the most important one is probably Jack Hobbs. Right. I mean Jack Hobbs sits at 7. Sorry I say the most important one. I mean I'm just like I'm going from an England point of view, I really apologize entirely. But I also sort of thought we might be kind of like not just talking about the top couple for a while. So if I'm just thinking about things, people who are more important to me. You know, Jack Hobbs comes in at seven. He's an important person to talk about because he scored the most English runs in the Ashes. 3636, 54.26. But what's really incredible about his Ashes career is that the majority of those runs were scored in Australia, 2,493 of them. And he's another person with just, you know, he's got a great. Ash's story in the sense that, you know, he scores 83 on Ash's debut on his first tour on 1908. 09. And he doesn't do any better than that. Then he has a Great Series in 1911, 12. And then obviously he goes off to the First World War and he's a.
- [09:23]
Max Rushton
Always gets in the way, doesn't it? Really gets in the way.
- [09:26]
Emma John
Really messes up people's stats. So he goes off to become an air mechanic in the Royal Flying Corps, which, you know, he's then in the RAF at. But by 1918, he's, like, serving in France with his squadron. But he comes. The amazing thing about Hobbes story is he comes back from this experience an even better batter. Like, there aren't, you know, there's so many stories we know about players who, you know, the war or either of the two world wars, you know, really kind of did for them in some way. And they came back physically or impaired or, you know, just had taken. Really taken out of them. He comes back and he's even better. And. And he's better in an England team that is not winning. And he's scoring, along with his opening partner, Herbert Sutcliffe, he's scoring the majority of their runs. So he's just this really fantastic character. And can I just tell you one more thing that I love about Jack Hobbs. Sorry, please. While I'm off on a Sir Jack Cobbs rant. Is that he was just supposed to be this really kind of easygoing, lovely guy as well. And that showed in his batting Ali.
- [10:35]
Max Rushton
Who from yesteryear, sort of, you know. Can you just do what Emma did for another cricketer, is what I'm trying to say.
- [10:41]
Ali Martin
Well, also, I just want to interject. I mean, yes, Jack Hobbs did pause his career for World War I, but Ian Botham took time out of the game to appear in pantomime.
- [10:48]
Max Rushton
So fair.
- [10:50]
Ali Martin
Yeah.
- [10:50]
Max Rushton
Who did he play? Who did Beefy play?
- [10:52]
Ali Martin
Oh, God.
- [10:53]
Max Rushton
Widow Twankie. It's gotta be in it. It's gotta be Widow Twankie.
- [10:58]
Ali Martin
Do you know what I mean? He's low on our list but he is in the top 100. I'm going to go for Gilbert Jessup and the Croucher basically because of, well, the England record that the Bassballers have been trying to break pretty much for the last four years. A 76 ball Test 100 which is England's fastest in Test cricket and. And that's kind of hung over them. There is obviously a bit of debate as to whether the accuracy of that. Simon Wilde has put together an excellent book, which I blew his out at the moment, which delves into that. He has the number around about 72, 73 balls I think from memory. But it's just one of those sort of, you know, great origin stories and as I say, it's a record that still sits there to this day.
- [11:38]
Max Rushton
And sort of. When did he get this? Where was he?
- [11:41]
Ali Martin
Well, this is in the golden age, Max, you must know.
- [11:43]
Max Rushton
Well, I know some listeners may not know.
- [11:47]
Ali Martin
Well, sort of. I mean his Test career was kind of turn of the century, I. E. 1899-1909.
- [11:53]
Max Rushton
So how about you, Jeff?
- [11:54]
Jeff Lemmon
I was more interested with who didn't make it because there tends to be a degree of recency bias with this sort of thing or celebrity bias I suppose. Although I was a bit surprised that Ian Bell missed out dominant in 2013, made three hundreds that series was the only one who wasn't spooked by Mitchell Johnson in 1314 the way that I remember it. But you go back to some of the early days, there's some players who could have made it, I suppose. Billy Midwinter took the first five wicket haul in Test cricket, but it wasn't but an Ashes series technically because Australia and England weren't playing the Ashes yet. Ranjit Singh 175 at the SCG. That was the biggest score for England I think until Tip Foster. Actually Max, you'll be interested to know too. 287 at the SCG. I think tip Foster had the highest score for a visiting player to Australia for like 90 years until Ross Taylor came along or more than. Maybe it was a century, just over a century. It was an extraordinarily long standing record. But the ones who really made me stop and go what's going on here? George Giffen missed out who played 11 Ashes series, took over 100 wickets, made over a thousand runs which is pretty good going in those days. Arthur Maley, 9 for 121 is still on the wall at the Percy Beams bar at the MCG for the best figures by an Australian Bowler at the mcg. He's not in there. Which is, you know, borderline outrageous. Doug Walters Ton on debut in an Ashes Test. Ton in his second test in an Ashes Test. Century in a session in an Ashes Test. Still didn't make the list. What's going on with that one? And last, like the, the most egregious one of all, Jack Blackham played 17 different series against England. Eleven of them were Ash's series. He played in the first ever test match. He played in the 1879 riot match in Sydney. He played in the birth of the ashes match in 1882. And he captained Australia in what was technically their first Ashes series win. They'd won a pre Ashes series, but their first Ashes win after losing seven series in a row to England. He captained that win, played for a million years, still didn't make the list. I'm outraged on behalf of Jack Blackham.
- [13:59]
Max Rushton
Okay, Emma, can I ask a question about WG Grace? Because obviously a lot of old cricket is just pictures of WG Grace. He's in at 31. Is that where he should be? Is he in the right spot?
- [14:10]
Emma John
It's because his Ash's record and I should have it up in front of me and I don't, but it's because his Ashes record isn't as great as.
- [14:18]
Max Rushton
A flat track bully. Is that what you're saying?
- [14:21]
Emma John
Well, I mean, he is obviously this immense figure, literally. And so we, you know, a lot of the big numbers and the big stats are all kind of first class runs, just sheer weight of numbers of, of centuries and first class appearances. But his Ashes career wasn't as extensive. And Geoff will remind me what happened when he went and captained in Australia. Cause that was an interesting story, wasn't it?
- [14:56]
Jeff Lemmon
Well, he did captain one tour, but he wasn't available for some others. And it was one of those long, meandering sort of Australian tours. But. But yeah, it wasn't an era when batters returned huge bulk runs a lot of the time. And so his overall record's relatively modest. Grace, he's what, a thousand ish runs all up, but he played a lot of test matches, so he got them at a modest sort of average. But he's significant. You know, the birth of the Asher story doesn't happen without him. He's the one whose dodgy play in that test at the oval pisses off Fred Spoffet so much that he comes out and bowls out England for 67. Is it off the top of my head?
- [15:37]
Max Rushton
What did he do specifically?
- [15:39]
Jeff Lemmon
He ran out a player who was, who was gardening, who was, you know, had stepped down to pat down some divots and grace sauntered in and knocked about, you know, sneaky style.
- [15:50]
Max Rushton
Right. Sort of bare stow.
- [15:51]
Jeff Lemmon
This is, this is no very much original because the ball was dead as opposed to the ball being alive when the wicket keeper throws it immediately upon receiving it. So the laws are very, very clear on that point.
- [16:02]
Ali Martin
Right.
- [16:03]
Max Rushton
I see. Seem a little bit defensive about that bit.
- [16:05]
Ali Martin
Yeah.
- [16:06]
Max Rushton
Ali, can we talk about England 2005? Mainly for me but I suspect there are other sort of middle aged people going this was just such a similar. Until you look at like the Ashes results and you realize just how long it had been since we'd won an Ashes. You saw a whole childhood, right. Of just never winning in ashes for people like me. And then suddenly this thing happens in 05, you know, Edgbaston happens. That incredible last day you got Strauss at 68, Vaughan at 40, Peterson 34, Flintoff 22. How are they not all in? Where's Geraint Jones? What's going on? Where's Simon Jones?
- [16:39]
Ali Martin
Well, I mean I can reveal that there is one uncapped player who did get one single vote as the 50th player on one of the judges lists and that is Gary Pratt.
- [16:50]
Thumbtack Advertiser
Yes.
- [16:53]
Ali Martin
But it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough to get him into the top 100, unfortunately. But there was a vote for Gary Pratt. I don't know who it was by. It's all anonymous voting. But. But yeah, I did love that. And you're right just on that point about. Because we've been sort of talking about recency bias. So built into the kind of the judges modeling, we broke down the Ashes into five distinct eras and every judge had to include a minimum of five players from each of those eras. So there was a kind of, there was a kind of a slight inbuilt. It's only 15 out of your 50 that you submit. But it was a slight inbuilt fail safe to defend against recency bias. But it's funny though, I mean I looked down the list and I wonder if sort of recency bias does. It can also work the other way. I wonder if we don't perhaps put modern feats up there as much because we're a bit sort of wary of putting. Putting them on, you know, on the same pedestal as some of the greats. And I kind of look, I mean you mentioned you still talking about Flintoff who's, you know, he's right up there now. I've got an hour go straight.
- [17:51]
Emma John
He's 22, he's one ahead of David Gower.
- [17:54]
Ali Martin
So he's 22. And if you take Flint off's Ash's career in isolation, it's very fleeting. You know, it's 2005, it's a doomed Ash's series under his captaincy and then it's kind of a shadow of the man, just, just about holding his body together for a bit of an encore in the 2009 Ashes. But what Flintsoft did in that 2005 series, you know, as man of a series, ending a 60 in your wait, I mean, that is, it's, it's such an iconic moment and I think that's one of the beauties of this kind of, this voting system and kind of the talking points. You can have great Ashes careers or you can have of individual moments. I mean, I also think we've underclubbed massively on Mitchell Johnson here because as, you know, as much as his, you know, his, his returns were lurching at times and he didn't have the best of time in England, albeit, you know, he did have, did have his moments in England in 1314. He didn't just sort of take 37 wickets, you know, he didn't just finesse those seven wickets. He blew England away. He, he destroyed, you know, arguably, you know, the best England team of the generation. They'd won the Ashes away. They'd won in, they'd won in India. They were there to, you know, to sort of. They won that summer in England 3 0. They were there to complete the legacy. And Mitchell Johnson, just a one man wrecking ball, bit of help from Ryan Harris, but Brad had in. But, but ultimately a one man wrecking ball. And so, you know, he's sort of somewhere in the 30s. And you know, I just wonder whether I'm trying to think it back to my own fighting slip now, whether I put him high. But it's, I don't know, it's the beauty of this. But yeah, I mean, sorry, going back to 2005, because that's what you want to talk about, Max 2005.
- [19:24]
Jeff Lemmon
Yeah.
- [19:24]
Ali Martin
And, and also, you know, you've only got to look sort of in our top 10. And I would say that, you know, with Glenn McGrath in that top 10, is that probably the greatest impact Glenn McGraw had was not playing in the, in the two games that England won in that summer, you know, as in. Sorry, not. It's not his greatest impact.
- [19:39]
Jeff Lemmon
His greatest impact.
- [19:40]
Ali Martin
One of the greatest bowlers of all time.
- [19:42]
Jeff Lemmon
But the biggest point of influence, the point you'll come to when you wrap up his career, is that is the bit where he wasn't there.
- [19:48]
Ali Martin
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that was. And England seized their chance that summer.
- [19:54]
Max Rushton
Jeff, you wanted to. You've got a hot take on Joe Root.
- [19:57]
Jeff Lemmon
Well, just that I wouldn't have had him in there because, yeah, he's made a lot of runs, but he's never.
- [20:04]
Max Rushton
He's at 46, he's at 47.
- [20:07]
Jeff Lemmon
Yeah, he's way too high. There are a few players like this. I mean, someone like the kind of Matthew Hayden, Justin Langer type players, where I go, okay, they're okay. Mark Hussey, you know, they played in some Ashes series. They had a decent record, but their stories aren't as interesting. Joe Root, I think, was influential on one Ashes series that he's played, and that was 2015. He made 100 at Cardiff in the first Test and that set up England to win the Test. And then, yeah, he made another 100 later in the series, but that's when Australia were already broken. The half century at Edgburston was probably more important. So there are a couple of tests in that series where he's significant. He hasn't played a significant hand in England getting a result in any other series that he's played. So I look at. If I'm weighing up something like that, I'm thinking, yeah, there's a lot of runs because he's played a lot of Test matches, but almost none of them were influential Test matches. Whereas, like Ali's point to Mitchell Johnson, or you can look at players from earlier eras who might have only played in one or two series, but they might have been, like, had such an impact on those that they were the player. You know, a player like Frank Tyson didn't play a lot of Ashes cricket, but was the decisive person when he did play Ashes cricket. Show, Root's never been the decisive player in an Ashes series. Really? That 2015 is the one time.
- [21:21]
Ali Martin
Yeah.
- [21:21]
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And.
- [21:24]
Emma John
He'S above Warwick Armstrong, isn't he? And Warwick Armstrong is, you know, like one of. Isn't he one of the most successful Australian captains of all time? And he was the first Australian captain to whitewash England and he had this run of eight successive victories and he.
- [21:40]
Jeff Lemmon
Invented new ball bowling. He invented two fast bowlers opening the bowling. That didn't happen until Jack Gregory and Ted Macdonald got together in Armstrong's team. And he said, well, instead of opening with a slow left armour at one end, like we've been doing for 40 years. What if we just blow teams away? And he did that at Trent Bridge in 2000. In 1921, he sicked his fast bowlers on England and they tore up England and that was essentially it. Cricket changed at that point. You look at someone who's had that influence versus, oh, this guy's got a nice set of numbers.
- [22:10]
Max Rushton
Yes, Ali.
- [22:11]
Ali Martin
I'm just going to go back to that point about Vaughan and Strauss and yeah, I mean, Vaughan's at 14, Strauss is at 68. And I just wonder, I think the judging panel, we possibly underclubbed on wicketkeepers a little bit. Adam Gilchrist is at 21 and.
- [22:25]
Jeff Lemmon
But he's there for runs, he's not there for keeping.
- [22:28]
Ali Martin
Yeah, of course, of course. Which is what I mean. So he's there for his runs and even that kind of, even that can feel a bit skinny because of the sort of the game changing effect he had in that position at number seven. But. And Mike Bruly is in this top 100. But I do wonder whether captaincy hasn't been factored in as much in certain cases. I mean, Vaughan for some minutes. Man of the series in, in 2002, three. Just as a batsman alone, you know, scores over 600 runs. I was on that tour as a punter and that was, you know, the one highlight of it. But, but that, you know, as the circuit breaker in 2005, the captain that ends 16 years of dominance against a great Australian side. I just wonder whether that deserves a few more ticks upwards. And Strauss at 68, I mean, he's got two centuries in the 2005 Ashes. He wins it as captain in 2009 and is player of the series in that series. And then he leads England to a historic win in 2010-11, scoring a century in that series as well. And he's at 68. So, you know, it just goes to show, it's a bit of fun. But. But it has found some interest. Results.
- [23:27]
Emma John
I want to agree with you on the wicketkeepers, because Alan Knott, there's no Jack Russell.
- [23:31]
Max Rushton
Come on. Any list where you can have Jack Russell and you don't have Jack Russell is a disgrace. And I am canceling my subscription. Carry on.
- [23:40]
Emma John
But also, you know, Alan Knott doesn't even make the top 50. And you know, I think for a lot of England fans who might be a little bit older than me, you know, Alan Nott is like, you know, your first choice, Ash's wicketkeeper. So that's quite extraordinary. And it makes it more difficult to pick an 11, doesn't it? If you've not got your. If you've not got your wicketkeepers and your captains properly represented.
- [24:08]
Jeff Lemmon
And there are some great players who, you know, Don Talon, Les Ames, players like that. Bert Oldfield gets in probably just because he got hit in the head by Harold Larwood. And that's why he's, you know, he's remembered as the source of the near riot at Adelaide in the Bodyline series. But he's there for that more than for the incredible bravery of a really long career of an injured World War I vet who came back and played for so many years for Australia.
- [24:33]
Emma John
I would have put Steve Waugh higher than Glenn McGrath for similar reasons to those that we've just been discussing. I just think Steve wore not just the captaincy, but sort of just his being. To me, he's a. I think they're both wonderful. And in fact, I think I definitely had both of them in my top six, but probably the other way around. And Steve War, just what Geoff was saying earlier, he's at the heart of this turnaround of Australian cricket. He kind of inspires it. I think there's a kind of 170 that he scores at Leeds.
- [25:13]
Jeff Lemmon
Yeah, 177 not out. And then he backs it up at Lords with 152 not out. And that's consecutive tests to start that series.
- [25:20]
Emma John
And then that's, you know, that's what. It's one of the things that gets them on this train and this unstoppable train. And I actually was thinking about it and I was thinking even before War was captain, you know, he was still symbolized so much more to me of what was impossible to defeat about the Australian team than say, Mark Taylor. When Mark Taylor was captured, you know, I still would have thought of war was kind of this kind of like adamant Antine Hart in that team. And yeah, I mean, I guess maybe this is just my trauma speaking. We talk about recency bias, but I wonder if there's a little bit of underlying ptsd that is why there are so many Australian sort of 90s figures quite high up on this list.
- [26:05]
Max Rushton
Yeah, well, if this podcast can also count as therapy, free therapy, it's no bad thing. Look, I've got to get to end part one because, Emily, you've already really given away four of the top 10. So if we carry on going before part two, the incredible announcement of the top 10, despite the fact people can see it on the website already, we'll lose all that jeopardy. So that'll come up in just a second.
- [26:33]
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- [27:36]
Max Rushton
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Ashes Weekly. So let's get down to the top 10. Do we want to do a list 10 to 1, just a little bit on everyone? Why not 10? So look, Emma, you'd mentioned Herbert Sutcliffe, you know, sort of Jack Hobbs, mate. Like is it. It's sort of what's a great double act where one half just doesn't really get the justice that they deserve, you know, more common wise or, you know, if, you know, and, or deck out of an. And deck or whatever, you know, like, like, is that what Sutcliffe's role is in all of this?
- [28:01]
Emma John
I think, I mean Sutcliffe scored a lot of runs alongside Hobbs in that era and it was really interesting, you know, if Hobbs wasn't scoring a century then Sutcliffe does. And so yeah, I mean he. But I think it's the sheer weight of numbers that does for Hobbs and Hobbs sort of ends up dubbed the master, right, because he can do anything at any time. But Sutcliffe, he may have made it look more painstaking, but he's not riding anybody's coattails, I'd say.
- [28:29]
Ali Martin
Day.
- [28:29]
Max Rushton
Okay at nine. Alan Border. Jeff, over to you.
- [28:34]
Jeff Lemmon
Well, just the heartbeat. You know, you talk about Steve Ward becoming the face of sort of Australian cricket supremacy for a time being. It's all on the foundations that A.B. sets up. He's, he's the one who sticks it out when Australian cricket's really struggling. He's the one who doesn't take the money to go off and play elsewhere and go on rebel tours and all of the rest of it. He's the One who goes, I'm going to, to, I'm going to make this team into something. And by sheer bloody mindedness he eventually manages to do that. So I, I don't think there's anyone more respected in Australian cricket history. I think if you pulled up, if you tried to do a list of the, the best Australian captains, I reckon he would come out on top because it wasn't that he was the most talented player, but he was the most bloody minded and he played forever and ever and nothing would ever make him any less intense in trying to get Australia to a win. Taking the barrages of fast bowling through that era when it was so brutal and difficult and eventually being there towards the end of his era when that Australian team had turned the corner.
- [29:42]
Max Rushton
And also Geoff, he just looks so Australian.
- [29:45]
Jeff Lemmon
That makes sense. And he's also weirdly nice. He's sort of terrifying on the field with the storming around and the glaring and the mustache and then. And like having dealt with him a bit in his almost retirement life, doing commentary and so on, he's just really pleasant to everyone. So it's really unnerving when like nice, sweet, kind Ellen Border comes in and, you know, asks if you wouldn't mind passing him that plate of biscuits. That would be terrific. Thanks very much, mate.
- [30:10]
Max Rushton
Sort of thing. Steve Smith's at 8. Ali. There is something extraordinary about Steve Smith, isn't there? That sort of ungetoutable cricket.
- [30:20]
Ali Martin
Yeah, it's phenomenal to watch. It's sort of like Neo in the Matrix kind of stuff when he, when he's on song. It's, it's, it's all the sort of technical brilliance, but in its own homespun way. You know, this isn't, this isn't sort of the classic coaching manual. This is, this is a guy who has worked out the game for himself and he hasn't just worked it out, he's pretty much completed it. Personal Ashford memories of pretty much the 201718 series Australia, which England just could not get him out. It was just a relentless, remorseless grind. There were some pretty flat pitches. England had a pretty sort of fast, medium kind of attack, but he absolutely gorged himself. The sort of levels of hunger that he, that he displayed even when it was done is incredible really. But, but it's also the, you know, the redemption arc, the ultimate redemption arc of 2019 coming back from that, that, that year out for the, for the sandpaper scandal and, and turning on the runs again in that way. I think only, only Bradman's got more than his 12 centuries in Ash's cricket. I think that's he's level with Hobbs.
- [31:13]
Jeff Lemmon
Level with Hobbs.
- [31:14]
Ali Martin
I would be surprised if he doesn't add one, possibly two more to that in the coming weeks.
- [31:21]
Emma John
Am I right about this? That he only needs 220 runs to overtake Hobbs to become the second highest Ashes run scorer and he already has a better average than Hobbs in those.
- [31:34]
Jeff Lemmon
Matches and you wouldn't rule him out going around again in 2027. So who knows what he could add. He's not the same player now. He's not. Not as at that untouchable peak. He does get out LBW these days and we saw the peak and that has passed I think. But it's the fact that he was able to like he got brick bats twice because people forget he played in 2010, 11 at the end of that series and he was pilloried for being absolute rubbish. Some sort of joke novelty all rounder, you know, chubby leg spinner who played a few weird shots and he goes away and then comes back in 2013 and then 1314 and makes hundreds against England, turns himself into the most important Batman, that Australian team. And then again 2019 as Ali says, goes away in disgrace, comes back, gets all the booing and the jeering and so on through that series. 774 runs in seven innings. No one has had an Ashes series like that since Bradman. In terms of the, the, the volume of runs in such a short period of time. Only a couple of other players, Viv Richards and one other slips my mind at the moment have made that many runs in that few innings. So he had that peak where he was as good as anybody. Who's the very, very, very best who've ever done done it?
- [32:44]
Max Rushton
We've talked about Jack Hobbs who's in at 7. We've mentioned Steve Warr as well. I don't know if you wanted to add a bit on Steve War Emma at six.
- [32:51]
Emma John
Yeah, I mean I. The sort of moments that, that really stick out for me and this, these kind of just crystallize how he was the person you could not get past in, in those 90s. Ashes Tests were the twin hundreds at old Trafford in 1997 when like only four other players passed 50 in that game, I think. And at that stage Australia actually 1 nil down in the series because England have won at Edgbaston and there's been a draw at Lords and actually in the first innings when Steve Ward comes in, Australia are 42 for 3 and the wickets Keep falling at the other end and they actually end up only making 235. But then England get bowled out for 162. Dean Headley is keeping England in this match however. So you know, I just remember 97 so well because it was just the most hope that we'd ever, you know, had in a home Asher series. And so they're, you know, Dean Headley's taking wickets, they're 39 for 3. Then Steve and Mark come, Steve and Mark Wall come together even, you know, even when I think Mark Wall gets out 132 for 5ish or something. But then Steve Wall works with the tail. They end up declaring on 395 for 8 and they end up winning by 268 runs. And that just to me was like that's the kind of, that's the heartbreaker that Steve War is. That's how he killed English spirits.
- [34:27]
Max Rushton
That's more trauma for you, Emma, isn't it? Right, we're into the top five. Four Australians, one Englishman seems about right, Jeff, doesn't it?
- [34:36]
Jeff Lemmon
Dennis Lilly at 5 and Dennis Lilly is the art of sport because he's, you know, the aesthetic is beautiful, the results are dangerous. But you were talking about double acts before. Lily without Thompson isn't like I don't think occupies quite the Pantheon place. He has a much bigger career than Thompson. He's more, he sort of plays across like spans a different era. He's more significant in a lot of ways as a boss. But the moment that they have, which is relatively brief, 74, 75 through to the 75 Ashes in England, that period of time when they are Lillian Thompson, that's what really nails down the legend. But so much of it is to do with the style, the flow of the run, the shape of Lily in the load up. There are so many photos of him with that remarkable sort of cocked back wrist and everything flowing through the crease and, and the incredible competitiveness that made him able to come back from the injuries that he had in a time when there was no sports medicine to deal with that and he had to figure out a way to do it himself and to remain as dangerous as he did for so long. So yeah, he's got 355 Test wickets but you throw in the World Series years and all of the rest of the world games that got discounted and something he should have been on about 450. He was an even more significant figure than his stats suggest.
- [35:57]
Max Rushton
We've Talked about Glenn McGrad playing football and doing his ankle alley. But like, he. In the same way that you can't get Steve Smith out, there's a time when McGrath just has the ball and you're just yourself, aren't you, as an England fan?
- [36:09]
Ali Martin
Yeah. And it was again, another double act with. With Shane Warne as well, the 19 times he knocked over Mike Atherton. I mean, that is, you know, it was. It was a kind of strangleholder. Athens is a pretty stubborn and tough bloke, but even he admitted that, you know, he did have a holdover him. And. Yeah, it's. It's just that kind of. I don't know, it's just. It's the. It's the kind of excellence of execution, really. It's not. It's not extreme pace. It's. It's. It's that sort of absolute perfection of. Of a wrist position, of seam manipulation, of just absolute sheer control of line length. You know, some great attributes. Tall guy, you know, got a good bounce, but it's. It's. Yeah, and it was just. He was just simply too good for a generation of England Bassmen.
- [36:50]
Emma John
I like to think of him as like. It's this. Some kind of, like, siege weapon, you know, like when they started inventing new ways of, like, destroying fortresses in the Napoleonic era. And it was like they started to discover all these kind of, like, engineering tricks that were just like, well, if we just keep hitting, you know, the base of this wall over and over with this gun, it's gonna fall. And I just. That's how I think about McGrath. You know, castles will crumble, empires will fall, and McGrath will just still. Yeah, I think the subplot with Athes is brilliant. I think also that point about, I think, really doesn't. He only really have one sort of failure. He just doesn't really fail. And I think that's true of a lot of the people that are right at the top of this list. That's why they're at the top of the list. They're kind of got this infallibility to them. So McGrath sort of goes for over 100 runs at Edgbaston in 1997 when Jason Gillespie is injured and England win by nine wickets. But then he comes back and he. He takes 8 for 38 at Lord's, which are, you know, the best innings figures in a Lord's Ashes Test and the best individual figures for an overseas bowler there. And, you know, it's just that thing where he's just. The man doesn't fail, really.
- [38:08]
Max Rushton
Okay. The highest Englishman is Ian Botham, Lord Botham, Ali. And I guess it's a lot for Headingly, but beyond Headingly, like this guy, I suppose he took it to the Australians. He's kind of quite Australian. Brilliant in the way he played cricket, if that's not a ridiculous thing to say.
- [38:26]
Ali Martin
Yeah. I mean, even going for the sort of bleach blonde mullet as well. So it's funny, I was thinking about this list and, and we were mentioning earlier about the different ways the judges could interpret it in terms of what constitutes greatness. And, and I think for, for both, I mean, I mean clearly 81, 81 goes beyond headingly, of course, as I mean he takes a 6, 3 in the first innings of that test match. Incredible turnaround with the bat. There's the five for one at edge base and he makes a hundred, pretty much a runnable 100 at Old Trafford as well. So it's an absolutely iconic sort of series that he has there off the back of being stripped of the captaincy. But I, I'd like to think that when this list is drawn up in sort of, you know, in 100 years time when, you know, unless it's all AI doing our jobs by then, they.
- [39:06]
Max Rushton
Can still do a list. The robots could do a list if they want. That's fine.
- [39:09]
Ali Martin
Yeah, the robots will do it. Okay. But I sort of think that while some of the names we mentioned will fade and that I feel like Botham is going to remain right up there. He's going to remain right up there because of, as I say, I think, I think it's to do with transcending the sport almost. It's about, it's about those moments that translates and transcend the sport, the characters that transcend it. I just think that, you know, for it, for an entire generation of English people, it's, it's both of them that kind of drives their love and passion for the sport. To see, you know, a guy out there sticking it to the Aussies, essentially. It's a pretty crude way of putting it, but that's, that was, his approach was absolutely unparalleled self belief and, and clearly, you know, obviously the back injuries came in and he became a, a bit of, a bit of a medium pacer towards the end of his career but, but sort of peak both and particularly with the ball that, you know, really fast outswing and just a relentless will to win. An incredible cricketer. And yeah, as I say, I think, I think he'll be, he'll be spoken about when this is done in a hundred Years time we get to the.
- [40:07]
Max Rushton
Top two, Jeff, and there is controversy here, here, because they're two great cricketers. One everyone will know from watching in bowl, Mike Gatting and being a brilliant bowler. And the other listeners will mainly know by just the. The numbers. 99. And it is Don Bradman and Shane Warren and Bradman is at 2 and war is at 1. And you are not convinced that's the right way around.
- [40:28]
Jeff Lemmon
Look, I, I don't think it's a travesty that it ends up in that order because Shane Warne as a story, did so much, was such a story through so many Ashes series, but in terms of the patterns of the voting, so I don't know who voted for who, but I know how people voted because we get to see how the votes were distributed. And so I will take issue, I will find out one day who. There were two people out of the 51 who didn't give Bradman a vote, not one, not a single, didn't make the top 50. The top 50 best players ever to play in the Ashes. Now, now this is a guy who made over 5,000 Ashes runs, let alone the 7,000 he made elsewhere. The average of 99 is his career average. He averages 89 in Ashes cricket, 18 Ashes hundreds. And they're like, Nah, not top 50. And that is some performative nonsense, I will say that for you. Ooh, I'm so clever and alternative. I'm not going to put Bradman in the top 50. Fine, whatever. You had your fault.
- [41:24]
Emma John
Unless it's what Max said at the beginning and they genuinely just forgot and it fell, maybe fell off the list.
- [41:31]
Ali Martin
No, no, no, we double checked.
- [41:33]
Jeff Lemmon
Yeah, no, I believe it was checked. And there was a degree of stubbornness that, no, this was the vote. So the difference between Warne and Bradman's about 120 votes. There are those two zeros that are worth 100 and there are a couple other people who put him mid-20s, which I think is also equally absurd to say that there are 25 better players in the Ashes than Bradmut, you might say there are two or three. You know, I didn't have him top. Fred Spoffeth was my top vote. There you go. If you want a controversial one because he created the Ashes, it's his bowling spell that makes the Ashes happen, as well as being so prominent in that early era of Australian cricket. So I don't think Bradman has to be 50, but he probably has to be 46 plus. Whereas nobody, no single voter gave Warne less than 48. He got 48, 49 or 50 from every single contributor. And Bradman got 48, 49 or 50 from all but four people who for whatever reason decided to structure things the way they did.
- [42:32]
Max Rushton
I suppose Ali, the only thing about Bradman is, you know, it's a sort of, for most of us, it's sort of mythical. It was interesting when you were talking about, you know, recency, bias and history and like I felt this with like when England football teams have got to the final of the Euros and I think, do I actually want them to win? Because the boys of 66 are gods, right? And I don't know if I've never seen any of them have a bad game. I've never seen Bradman have a bad innings ever because I've never seen him have an innings.
- [42:57]
Ali Martin
No, you're right. I mean, I've not seen him play either, Max. So, you know. No, I mean that's. It's difficult, isn't it, because you're quibbling over one and two and it's always like there's a sort of intended, sort of implied shade against the person in second place. You're still saying they're the second greatest of all time. Like, I mean another point about Bradman is England had to devise a completely new way of playing or at least. Yeah. What at the time was considered pretty, you know, it was a pretty controversial move. The whole body line tactic that was brought in essentially to stop one man and he still averaged sort of, you know, he still averaged 50 in that series, I think. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean it wasn't. So the impact is great. I mean I, I'm going to tell you my top vote. I did go for Shane Morton actually. And I think, I mean, I guess the thing about Bradman is that the, the numbers are clearly so much further ahead of any, any of his peers at the time. Time. But that is, you know, that really does set him apart. But my point being is that is that Shane Warne mastered the toughest skill in cricket and he did it. He didn't just master it, you know, just to get ahead of his peers. He is so far ahead of any of the rivals for that particular thing. And then you can add into that the, the absolute psychological grip that he had on England quite literally from the first ball he sends down in Ash's cricket afterwards. And you know, Jeff mentioned the hat tricker earlier. I'm trying to think what was this? He, he played a part in seven Ashes wins. I mean, he's just, you know, For a generation of English cricketers. I said this about McGraw earlier, but he was a nightmare. And even, Even in the one series he loses to England, he takes 40 wickets, his life is falling apart off the field. He's front page news, he's back page news. And he still is able to deliver his skill, the hardest skill in, in cricket, in my, in my view, to absolute elite levels. So for me, it was, Shane Warne is the greatest Ashes cricketer of all time.
- [44:44]
Max Rushton
And Emma, it's not just the Gatting delivery, right? I mean, but still we're allowed to talk about that because it's so just like Gatting's face is, it's like so iconic. Isn't that goes beyond cricket, that moment?
- [44:57]
Emma John
I mean, you know, there's a song about it. Come on. I mean, where else does that happen? Like one single delivery and duck was Lewis and I said, write a song about it. To be honest, since Ali has, since Ally has braved this, I'm gonna do it too. Just, you know, just to see, just to add to it, I also put Warnie first. I'm just looking at Geoff's face to see how horrified he is. Oh, no, he's given me a thumbs up. I mean, my thing is actually that really, the two people at the top, it would be nice if they could share it, wouldn't it? I mean, you know, the two people, they've got so much in common, these two men. They've got so little in common in probably the. Their personal lives, but so much in common as cricketing legends. They're both completely untouchable in terms of their statistics and achievements. You know, Warne's. Just as Ali was saying, Warne's wickets, number of Ash's wickets stands so high above the next. Bradman's runs stand so high above the next. They both defined and dominated entire Ashes eras, not just a series. So we've got lots of people on this list who, you know is, yeah, it's Tate's Ashes or it's Flintoft's Ashes, but this is a, you know, we're talking about, you know, years and years. And they're both men who brought this contest completely alive through the sheer force of their competitiveness. So I think they've got a lot in common. But then I'm just gonna leave you with this, you know, did Bradman do it on a diet of pizza and beer and did he end up going on I'm a celebrity and getting bit on the head by an anaconda?
- [46:40]
Ali Martin
No.
- [46:40]
Max Rushton
Yeah.
- [46:41]
Jeff Lemmon
No.
- [46:42]
Ali Martin
No.
- [46:42]
Max Rushton
John Brubany actually came seventh. Well, he came seventh in Strictly, one of the early, early, strictly in the 50s.
- [46:50]
Jeff Lemmon
But he did. He did have that kind of other side to his life and his personality. He had scandals, he had fights with the board because he was doing jobs outside cricket. He had illnesses. He came back from. Like the Bradman story isn't just numbers. It's. It's 28, 29 getting dropped after his debut and then. And then coming back and then making two hundreds while they're getting pulverized and then going to England and setting the series, making 974 in that series and then Body Line with all the drama and controversy, then getting them back in 1934. Then he captains the only side that has ever gone 2 nil down in a 5 test series and won it. That's happened once in the entirety of Test history, and that's Bradman as captain, moving the chess pieces and masterminding the comeback win in the third Test, going on to win that series, making three hundreds on the trot to do it. And then you come to coming back after World War II when he hasn't played in six years, and he. He's old and he's still peeling off hundreds in that final series. He's got so many parts to his story in the way that Warne does, where they're the central character in half a dozen Ashes series, and that's what they both have in terms of the narrative they bring.
- [47:58]
Emma John
That's true. Can I just say one thing, which is that I think we have much more of a sense of Warne's heart and humor and that. I mean, Robertson Glasgow said about Brad Blake, no one ever laughed about Bradman. He was no laughing matter. And I think that's one of the things that tempted me to put Warne over Bradman was this sense of personality. Yeah. Kind of not iconoclasm, but that kind of sense that, you know, it's okay. It's okay to kind of like have a new person at the top of the pyramid. I think we're in that era. I think if you look at what's happened in tennis, we've just gone through an era where. Where there were just. There were numerous goats. That's not. That's, you know, supposedly goat is greatest of all time, but we had an era where it was like, well, Federer is a goat and Djokovic is a goat and Nadal is a goat. And I think putting Warne first kind of. It is sort of in the spirit of that and celebrating that the sport is ongoing and is moving.
- [49:04]
Max Rushton
You might in the background HEAR Willie Rushton, child 2, who has a choice of playing for England or Australia. The aim is to rinse the Australian sporting system and then they get them big mullets and they can open the batting for England. But that's not the only reason to end the pod. Now it feels like, you know, we've done the list. I don't know if you wanted to. Anyone wanted to add anything else before we crack on?
- [49:23]
Emma John
I'd just say one thing, which is that. Because I just love that Geoff said that he put Spoffeth first because Spoffoth is responsible for the Ashes. And I think it's really wonderful as a sort of nice symmetry that I've obligated. Who was the person, you know, why the Ashes urn exists?
- [49:42]
Jeff Lemmon
Well, he got given it. I mean, it's always. He gets credit for what women did, you know, they did. Janet Clarke did the work and then Ivan Bly gets the credit. Classic.
- [49:50]
Emma John
Yeah. And Florence hands it over to him. Yeah. But he comes in 98th and I think that's really fitting. I quite enjoy that because, again, a sort of. There's an iconoclasm about that, that we think of the Ashes as kind of. Yeah, very. Kind of attributed to Ivo Bly, but, you know, the man. I can't remember how many runs he totaled, but he averaged 10 in the Ashes. He played four innings. Oh, his highest score was 19. That's right. He scored 62 runs. His highest score was 19. And he was kind of just famous for this romance. And I only realized today as I was thinking about it, he's not even the most famous Captain Bly in history.
- [50:31]
Jeff Lemmon
No, things ended up a bit better for him than old mate hiding under the bed.
- [50:39]
Max Rushton
And anyway, thanks, everybody. If you'd like to get in touch with the pod, we'll be doing it throughout the series. We'd love to get your questions, your thoughts on this or anything else we do in the next few weeks. The email is ashes weekly, the guardian.com. you can find us on YouTube. You can follow the Guardian Sport on Instagram and TikTok. But for now, thank you very much, Emma. Thank you.
- [50:59]
Emma John
Thank you.
- [51:00]
Max Rushton
Thank you, Ali.
- [51:01]
Ali Martin
Cheers, Max. Thank you.
- [51:02]
Max Rushton
Thank you, Jeff.
- [51:03]
Jeff Lemmon
Looking forward to the next one.
- [51:07]
Max Rushton
Ashes Weekly is produced by Nick Harmon. Our executive producer is Daniel Simo. The theme tune is by Rudy Zygadlo. And that is it for now. We'll be back next week with a preview of the first test in Perth. See you then.
- [51:24]
Jeff Lemmon
This is the Guardian.
- [51:37]
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