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Football Weekly
Atalanta’s stunning comeback and Juve’s costly near-miss: Football Weekly Extra
00:52:38
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Lars Sivertsen and Mark Langdon to dissect a dramatic Champions League night
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- [00:00]
A
This is the Guardian. Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. And some not us wrote off all the Italian teams yesterday in the Champions League. A stunning comeback in Bergamo from Atalanta. What a nervous penalty in the seventh minute of injury time to win it. Was it high foot or low head? They're through. Juve almost joined them. Five, two down. Going into last night they pulled it level, doing almost all the work with Ted 10 men before running out of steam in extra time against Galatasaray. It feels right that Vinicius Jr. Scored the key goal of the night in Madrid. Benfica had their chances, but Real go through. And our friend Valt Fass almost took PSG to extra time but didn't get enough bouffant hair on his header. The holders go through elsewhere. Kov go five points clear in the championship. We'll do a Premier League preview, answer your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenny. Welcome.
- [00:59]
B
Hi, Max.
- [01:00]
A
Hello. Lars Ivinson.
- [01:01]
C
Come on, Max.
- [01:02]
A
And from the Racing post, Mark Langdon. Hello.
- [01:04]
D
Hi, Max.
- [01:06]
A
So, good night last night, wasn't it? Let's start in Bergamo with Atalanta 4, Borussia Dortmund 1. Really good game and decided Mark by that penalty. The head is low and the foot is high. I don't know what to feel. Tell me what to feel.
- [01:21]
D
Well, I think you trans you wasn't in my living room with you last night, Max, when I was debate. I don't know why my wife was so interested. Probably because she didn't want it to go to extra time. But you know, she was, she was adamant it was an accident and that you know that you know that therefore really unlucky. And I'm saying it's not in the laws. And so she said, well, why are they complaining then? I said, well, maybe not watching our football. I think I, I was shouting penalty straight away. I, I. There is a definitely dips ahead, but certainly not to the extent where Benzobani when you connect like your studs forehead of an opponent, I think it's very difficult to say that's not a foul. And therefore if it's a foul inside the penalty box, you know, I think penalty is the right decision. Like he's already been booked so he has to walk. Yeah, I look really hard because literally the last kick of the game. Sometimes people say the last kick of the game and it's not literally the last kick of the game. This was a brilliant way to finish the game. I think the better team Went through. Maybe that's why I'm kind of less bothered by maybe the supposed harshness fabric. Dortmund and I did think it was a penalty, but I thought their first half performance warranted them going out. Really.
- [02:46]
A
I like the idea that you're such a pedant that when anyone says that was the last kick of the game, you say, I think you're fine. There were actually eight more touches before the referee blew for full time. And actually, Barry, the penalty itself, when you think about the pressure and you think about the comeback and you think, okay, it's the seventh minute, there's been such a delay. You know, two people have been sent off in the dugout before he gets to take this penalty. And it is absolutely perfect.
- [03:10]
B
Yeah, just smashed it into the top corner. Unsavable if it's on target. And it takes cajones to do that, I suppose. Samara Zic, I presume there's the temptation to go for an easier option because if you do miss, you look like a complete idiot. But it was not, not quite Panenka idiot. But you know, there are easier ways to take a penalty. So it shows massive confidence on his part. I thought it was a penalty and I thought it was a lovely way for Ramy Ben Sabaini to finish what was to be one of the all time worst performances in the history of football. I felt for the guy, he couldn't catch a break at all. He was badly at fault for the first goal. I think the second one took a massive deflection off him and then he gave away that penalty right at the death, which Dortmund scored and got sent off. So what a night for him. He really was the standout performer for all the wrong reasons. And I'm surprised he even lasted as long as he did. But I agree with Mark. I think the better team probably did go through and they will play Atalanta, will play Arsenal, Bayern Munich. I suspect they may not get any further.
- [04:39]
A
What did you make of it last?
- [04:40]
C
I was surprised because this is sort of. This sort of massive collapse is sort of the bad old doctor. And under Kovacs, actually, they've been unusually sort of organized and rational and solid. This is why they've been. I mean, they've been second in the Bundesliga in spite of actually not being very good. Like, man for man, this is not a vintage, you know, exciting Dortmund generation. But Niko Kovacs is a very, you know, competent, solid coach. He's made them hard to beat. And in this game, they were not like there was the kind of Collapse that you just don't really see coming from them this season. And I think Kovac said after the game that in like, there were moments where we weren't really there. It's like they weren't present mentally, that they made. That they made stupid mistakes. And of course, Kobel, the goalkeeper, has his accepted blame for the way the last goal went and apologized profusely. It's kind of surprising, I think. It's not really what I was expecting, based on the Dortmund games I've watched this season. On the. On the penalty, there's a good sort of thing to remember where it's like, in terms of fouls and yellow cards and red cards, and it's almost like a child's rhyme thing, which is laws of the game. Careless is a free kick, reckless is a yellow card, and dangerous is red. It's careless, reckless, dangerous. That's the way it goes, right?
- [06:00]
A
Right. Okay. The things I teach young Ian to be. This is what you must, please Ian, be these three things for life. Careless, dangerous and reckless.
- [06:09]
C
But it's really easy to remember. Foul is careless, reckless, dangerous. Right. That's the steps you go through. But it also means whenever some. Whenever it's a red card and you hear the co. Common going, yeah, that's a red. That's really reckless. You can be the one asshole in the group that goes, Actually, I think you'll find you're reckless means something else, you know? Yeah. You can see why I get invited to many parties.
- [06:29]
A
I was going to say with Mark saying, this is how many touches until full time, and you saying, actually, that wasn't reckless. God, what a boring set of people we are. It's a podcast of pub bores.
- [06:40]
C
People love us. Me and Lango, yeah, we get invited to all the hots to the hot places. But I bring this up now because I suspect we're coming back to this subject when we get to the Aventus game, but in this case anyway, there's absolutely no doubt that what Benzema does is careless. Like he has no idea where his leg's going. He's just poking it up in the air. And he got a yellow card, which I guess the referee felt it was reckless. And I guess again, if you poke his leg out behind you and he kicks someone in the head, fair enough. I think that's fine. But my main takeaway was that I just didn't really see this coming. And Dortmund fans will say, you should see this coming, because this is Dortmund. This is sort of dumb nonsense that we do, but they have been more solid this season. They just completely abandoned them on the night.
- [07:24]
A
Mark. There's always a danger of. And Niki summed this up quite well yesterday. Sort of, you know, treating all Italian teams as this sort of monolithic thing or English teams and saying this, you know, like Atalanta are not Juventus. You know, they are a different team. They're not Inter Milan. But like, does it make any difference to Serie A that Atalantra are through? It doesn't make any difference to Juve or Inter, does it?
- [07:44]
D
I. No, it doesn't. I think probably for the league, I think it does matter like if Juventus would have been the one team through probably, you know, there have been a section of Italian fans that would have been disappointed that, that you. You've had made it through. Wouldn't be the most popular team in Italy unless you support them, which are, you know, the big section of the country does. But I think for Atalanta, I think it, it's great for them and I do think it, it helps the league and it also helps to go into another boring subject now about Coefficient. You know, there is something to be said, there is something to be said for, for the progress. I think that the one thing for me with Italian football is you seen this Atalanta game that's finished 41 like Juventus have been involved in two absolutely chaotic games. Inter, you know, conceded five goals on aggregate to Bodo. There will still be pundits, particularly from the uk, referencing the sort of dow and the tactical greatness of Italian football and how they play for Neil N. And like it just hasn't been like that for such a long time. And yet that stereotype and cliche just remains. And Atalanta, I think they had a. When, when they got rid of Gasparini and replaced him with Uric, that was, that was a mistake. They realized that mistake fairly quickly. I think Palladino is more in keeping with what they want to be and sort of who they are and kind of what Gasparini had built before them. And it is a. A mix of very experienced players, Kalasina, Costa players like that. But there are also, you know, in terms of Atalanta like got one of the best youth systems in, in the country and there probably aren't that many in Italy that can say that really at the moment they are going for a dry spell. But I think Atalanta try to do things the right way if, if, if that's the right thing to say. And I'm really pleased that they've got through. I do think they'll go out to Arsenal or Bayern Munich. Just the power of those two teams, I think will make it very difficult. But in Bergamo they are a completely different beast and that won't. I. I suspect that won't be an easy game.
- [09:55]
A
Yes, Barry.
- [09:56]
B
No, I've just realized that the goal Atlantis scored, the passage header to put them three up. Ben Saini, it was who let him ghost in behind to score that header. So Beni was either directly or Inter indirectly responsible for all four Atalanta goals.
- [10:16]
C
Is it.
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A
I mean, is it at the stage where having a Beni is a, you know, is it, you know, a bit like when we were talking about a kanji, you know, doing a butcher having a big bandage on. Is it that level of.
- [10:26]
B
Well, look, I think it was just one of those nights. He's clearly a decent player, but he. Nothing went right for him last night.
- [10:33]
A
He had a vou fast and more. More to come, more of which are not. Yes, it's not fair to say about fast. Had a bout fast, but he did have a fast moment. Anyway, we'll do that in a bit. Juve's comeback, Lars, was great. Wasn't it like to be, you know, one nil up and be down to 10 men and then take it to extra time? You know, they were five, two down going into this. They got it back to 390 minutes and sort of ran out of steam and extra time. They did have one brilliant chance, an extra time, but it was a brilliant game.
- [10:59]
C
Yeah, this was another one of those. I think the last week I was on, there was one game I wanted to watch, but there was another one that turned out to be more interesting. I had this experience again. I was sat down, I was like Real Madrid, Benfica is what we're focusing on tonight. But this is where the fun was at. I sensed and of course, yes, we will praise Juventus, but I have to just say, like, Galatasaray, what are you doing? Like, there was so much of this game where they were just behaving unsensibly and actually Viktor Ossimon doing post match interviews when they won and when he scored the pivotal goal was saying, like, I have to say I'm disappointed in the team because this was. This was unserious behavior from Galtasserai. They have a three goal lead and they even go up like they're one man up for a lot of this game and they just couldn't put their foot on the ball or stay solid or do any of these sensible things. Like I told you, Max, on the day, I was like, galtasserai, they do have a collapse in them and boy, did they deliver on that score. And I just. It was just Juventus running out of steam, really, in extra time. You can tell they were just really tired, which is understandable when you play that much of the game with 10 men. And they do deserve a lot of credit for just hanging in there. But again, and I hate that it's me doing this, but I think this game, we have to go to ref chat. I mean, I tried to avoid the ref chat, but the red card here is very difficult to completely ignore because I think poor old Lloyd Kelly, if we go back to our careless, reckless, dangerous adage.
- [12:31]
A
He's none of those.
- [12:32]
C
It's careless maybe, maybe, but probably not even that.
- [12:36]
A
Yeah, it's the saying before careless, there's just trying to land on your feet.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Is that the first one of the saying?
- [12:43]
C
So the line that often, ref, I ask about this sometimes and the line that keeps coming back to me is that the players have a duty of care to their fellow professionals and you're responsible for where your limbs end up. But I think that concept comes up against the idea of there are certain physical actions you have to be expected to be allowed to do on a football field. And I feel like jumping is one of them. Like, you're not. You don't have a carte blanche to stick your leg out behind you up in the air like Benzemini does. Like, if you do that and catch someone's head, then, like, that's not. I don't feel sorry for you. But Lloyd Kelly just jumps. And like, when you jump, you're going to land somewhere. And in a grass field with 21 other dudes, like, occasionally there will be someone where you land like this. I don't think there's a way around that, actually.
- [13:27]
A
Barry, Rory Smith on Match of the Day. So make quite a good point that that var means that referees are now just doing everything by the letter of the law, but not in the spirit of the law. And I think most fans watch that decision and just think that isn't fair. Now, you know I know intent doesn't matter, but it just isn't fair. I don't know if that matters, but, like, we're all watching it going, you, you, you shouldn't get sent off for that unless you think you should.
- [13:55]
B
I thought he was unlucky. I can see why the ref gave it. Rory Smith makes lots of good points. This is probably another one. It does seem unfair.
- [14:07]
A
But on a wider point, Mark, I guess that it is about what VAR has done to the laws of the game. I'm not going to say handball, although I just said it. But you know that, that on a wider point that is an issue, isn't it?
- [14:18]
D
Yeah, I definitely think there was some people moaned about sort of the inconsistency and you still get inconsistency. But I think there was, there was that spirit of the game and kind of most people generally, apart from the real bores of which none of us could claim to be, that would moan about every refereeing decision. It didn't matter whether, you know, if it went for them, they would moan and then they'd be sort of rowing about if it went against them. And you can never going to stop them people. And I think that VAR was brought in to try to eradicate that. But the people that moan all the time are still moaning all the time. And it's just for those of us that were kind of just trying to enjoy the football now had that ruined by, by aspects of VAR that we didn't wish to sort of come into the game. On this particular incident, like I am going to say that you do have to like if that if the VAR thinks that it is a red card whether Lloyd Kelly's getting sent off or not, he still has to go through those steps because it might be an extra match ban Juventus nearly went through. You know, it's a bit like that man City versus Liverpool sort of goal the other week and Jonathan Wilson said afterwards, well, what if goal difference becomes a really important sort of factor in the title race?
- [15:36]
B
So another man who isn't a ball.
- [15:39]
D
Exactly, exactly. So just, just going back, I'm gonna slightly, I will disagree with the rest of the panel though in terms of I, I, I perfectly see why it was a yellow card and sort of felt like it was the right decision. And the only reason I would say that is that if you offer carte blanche to people, inverted commas to accidentally put their studs down the back of somebody, like people will take advantage of that. We've seen people take advantage of all kinds of other things. So if you think that the, the game has to be stopped now when somebody has got a head injury, we are seeing players hold their head. When there isn't head injury, there will be always somebody looking to bend whatever kind of laws there are. And like I think we all know the type of defender and I'm not saying Lloyd Kelly is one of those, but I think we Know the type of defender that would relish that opportunity to land in a position like that if they were allowed to. And it was just seen as kind of one of those things. So I, I, I sort of didn't think it was like a disgraceful decision against like Kelly, who's had a shocking time of it really. He wasn't very good in the first leg, was he? And you know, he's, he's, he's cost the team. I know he will feel it's, it's unlucky but I felt like Juve, even though it's only one nil at the time, I felt like Juve had a really big opportunity to, to still overhaul that deficit. And as Lars said, like they just ran out of legs really. Otherwise with 11, I think they would have done it.
- [17:09]
B
I think they blew actually. They had, they had nine good chances that they missed. Gassy Locatelli Concerto Yiddle is a. Missed three decent chances. Yeah, it's a Grover Zhugova twice. I think they will look at that. Despite the deficit from the first leg. I think they should have gone through.
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A
Yeah, there's a Grover one is the
- [17:33]
C
big one, isn't it?
- [17:34]
A
McKenney just sets him up and he's, it's just a purr for a left footer just to bend that in the corner and he puts it wide.
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D
Max, can I just have a bit of a shout out for McKenney because I know we've got a lot of us listeners. Well, not only has he got an extraordinary sort of long throw because he can throw it as far as kind of the delapse, but he, it's a pace as well. So that might be sort of something they really look to use. I think the US come the the World cup, but this is somebody that started the first leg up front and the second leg at left back. And he's definitely sort of influential for Juventus in all manner of positions. You know, I think he's somebody been waiting quite a while for him to really show his best. Been a lot of talk about him for, for a. And I feel like we really are seeing the best of McKenney now. Albeit he maybe should have taken responsibility with that Zagrover when he sort of tried to do the assist rather than the goal. But a big player for Juventus and somebody that us will really need to step up come the World Cup.
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A
Shout out to Weston McKenney. Yes, Lars.
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C
Also just on Galatasaray. They are such a mystery box of a team. You really never know what you'll get with them. Which I think makes them like the expected fun is sky high. And they are like. If you're not sure which game to watch on a weeknight Champions League spread like this, you're not gonna go too far wrong by watching the Galatasaray game. Because if you look at the team now, there's some really good players here, like Osterman, obviously we can have the Osterman shouldn't be in Turkey discussion. I think it's been had a few times. Certainly he is incredibly good. Like he would improve almost all. There are not many teams in Europe who couldn't use a number nine of that quality. You got. You've got Leroy Sane coming off the bench and he's got great. We don't have. Just look at the lineup. There's so many like genuinely brilliant players. And I keep waiting for them to grow up and like become like a serious team that can stay organized and behave seriously. And they've done like the one nil winning as Liverpool in the group stage was very composed and very organized and I was like, yes, Skeletos, right, this is, this is what we want to see. But then they also had like the disastrous 51 defeat to Frankfurt. They're really poor against Union Saint Giloise, but again they blew Juventus apart in the first leg and then they come here with a three goal lead and are dreadful for so long. I cannot. There's really no telling what happens when Galatasaray start a football match. And I think that is as a neutral, that's an admirable quality.
- [20:04]
A
So on that we've got Liverpool or Tottenham will play Galatasara Athletic. Lars, what's the perfect setup of those football matches?
- [20:11]
C
They can beat both of them and they can lose 6 nil to both of them. I swear to God. There is no telling with Galatasar. I. But I feel like from that perspective we probably want them to play Spurs. I think just to be the chaos of they have beaten Liverpool earlier in the season and Liverpool are still like working through some stuff. I think anyone who saw them against Nottingham Forest at the weekend will feel that they're not out of the woods, as it were. But maybe because we they played before. I think them against spurs would be more like the expected fun would be through the roof, I think.
- [20:44]
A
Right, well, let's see. When's that draw? Is that tomorrow?
- [20:47]
B
Tomorrow morning.
- [20:48]
A
Tomorrow morning? Oh, Friday morning. Okay. Well, I look forward to it. And that'll do for part one. Part two. We'll begin with Real Madrid. Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Rail two, Benfica one. And it feels fitting, Barry, that Vinicius Jr. Was the, you know, the. The key man in this game.
- [21:14]
B
Yeah, he scored the decisive goal, did a dance by the corner flag quite pointedly, which went down very well with the Bernabeu crowd. Januka Presiani, he was accused of racially abusing him in the first leg, traveled with Benfica despite having a suspension, which his club appealed. So he watched from the hotel team hotel, I believe. Jose Marino was suspended from this game. He was nowhere to be seen. There's talk he might have watched on a tablet in the team bus. Real Madrid went into this game. No Bellingham, no Mbappe, no Dina Sane. So it could have gone badly for them, but they. They got through it and deservedly so. And I suspect there won't be too many people sorry to see the back of Benfica after what happened in the first leg.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah, I think they weren't convincing Rail in this game.
- [22:15]
C
No, not at all.
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A
Benfica had chances, didn't they?
- [22:17]
C
No, I was. And this is the game I was trying to like. Main screen, but it was quite bad. Like, just as the quality. At one point, the Coco commentator just went, this is really poor play here now. There was just a sequence of some really loose passes from both teams. And this is not like both the point we're at in the tournament and the quality of a lot of the individual players on the field. You're just kind of expecting slightly better football than what was happening here. And Courtois had to come up with some pretty big saves here. I think it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for Benfica as an institution after the last week, and of course that they're coached by Jose and all this sort of stuff, but just like completely on the balance of play. I think they'll feel a little bit unfortunate not to actually have gone. Gone past Real Madrid here, because Real Madrid looked very gettable on the night. I know Real Madrid are missing some guys in defense. Militao is not there, Hoisen's not there. But they were not impressive really, at all. And they looked like a team who might get into big trouble against more capable opponents. That said, Mbappe was not available. He will be back. And if you have an east junior and Mbappe in your front line, you can put 3, 4, 5 goals past anyone on any day. But they're not. If you talk about teams, I mean, in the aftermath of Buddha glimps on Tuesday night, I've heard and use the phrase more than the sum of their Parts so many times. Real Madrid currently not more than the sum of their parts, distinctly less than the sum of their parts. And yeah, this, this was not an impressive performance at all.
- [23:57]
A
The midfield seems to be an issue, Mark, with Real Madrid, it's hard to. It's hard to replace Tony Crows, right, And Luke Modric. That is a hard thing to do, right?
- [24:07]
D
It is. I mean, look in terms of talent, Valverde, too many Camavinga or you know, all excellent footballers and do different things as well. So you feel like the balance and, and the way they play should be. It should work really. I think what they do lack is somebody to control a game and that is what Tony Crows particularly.
- [24:30]
A
It's never calm, is it?
- [24:31]
D
It's not Cruise. Yeah, they're not. Yeah, they were after Super Mendy, weren't they? I think that was the player that Xavi Alonso wanted and I think Real Madrid, you know, spent their money elsewhere. But maybe there is somebody that just plays that role that they are lacking that can just knit the team together because Valverde, I think he could possibly do that, but he wants to break forward to a Many is more of a destroyer despite his lovely goal and Camavinga. But I'm still trying to work out exactly what Camavinga is. I know he's a very good footballer, but I don't know kind of what position he should play. And maybe that's been a problem for him as well because he has played at left back and they've tried to play him as the sort of defensive midfielder. So that there is definitely a balance issue. I would also say as well that there's an Mbappe issue in terms of this knee injury because like Real Madrid are trying to getting through and I don't. How many times have we seen this where you try and do that and eventually it needs an operation or it needs like a longer term sort of fixed on what we've got. And there is a World cup, you know, just on the horizon as well. So that's a. That's a tricky one for our below to manage there just in. And they're in a title race in Spain. So like it's hard to know which games Mbappe should play in and which ones he shouldn't, but he's clearly not 100% and I'm not sure rest just kind of is. Is what's required here, like a sort of, you know, a midweek off. I think he maybe needs a longer period. But Real Madrid are not in that position where they. They can afford to be Without Mbappe just saying all that. But for the last decade or more, people have said this about Real Madrid, about this stage of the competition. Then they wake up, they get a big tie, you know, Courtois will do something amazing, they'll get through a game and then you know, all of a sudden they start to look good. But as it stands at the moment, while you'd still rather play Bodo Glimp than Real Madrid in that little section, you shouldn't be fearing them like as this mighty Real Madrid. I don't think so. Yeah, I agree with Lars on that.
- [26:40]
C
So that sort of controlling midfielder thing, that is the. That is what Camavinga looked like he was going to become when he was coming through Aren when he was just a teenager and he was. Yeah, he looked like that was his role. But then when he came to Real Madrid, of course both Kroos and Modric were there. So he was used more as his athleticism was utilized and he was played at left back and I guess they just don't trust him to do that kind of job. And I also do wonder if this is part of the idea between bringing Ardagula into a deeper role, hoping that he will develop into that sort of player because he seems more like an attacking midfielder, even almost a second striker to me. But they're playing him more in midfield but that seems to be an issue. This is like top class fence sitting by me. But I do also just think all of these things will stop mattering if you've got Vinicius and Mbappa running at you. Like having talents like that it makes it harder maybe sometimes to create a coherent 11 because yeah, for reason. But the individual quality they represent and the devastating speed and the finishing prowess like yeah, you still. Like I said I would fare them like contrary to what language. Having just said that they didn't play well and there's so many things that don't work. I would still be terrified if my team had to play against them because that's just kind of how that works.
- [27:59]
A
So Real Madrid are on the other side of Bodo. So Real or Bodo will play Man City or Sporting in the last 16.
- [28:05]
B
Just on the Camavinga thing, there was quite a sickening mid air collision between him and Asensio in this game. I presume we'll get further updates today. But neither of them looked in great nick.
- [28:18]
A
Yeah, Abalo had said it's not a serious first thought after the game I think. But yeah, not entirely sure. Baz, you watched PSG Monaco. What did you finish 2, 2. So PSG threw 5, 4 and aggregate. What did you make of it?
- [28:33]
B
I thought Monaco were a bit unlucky, to be honest. So basically they played 42 minutes of the first leg with 10 men and 32 minutes of this one with 10 men. So, you know, combined 74 minutes of the two legs with. They were down to 10 men. I thought they started really well. Mamadou Koulibaly missed a sitter. It was him who got sent off. Later. Tilo Carer sent a glancing header from a free kick, very narrowly wide. Florin Baligan had a loop and effort from outside the box which landed off on the roof of the net. I think it might have taken a nick off Marquinos. Then they took the lead through Magnus Ali, Aliush. Then Koulibaly got sent off. And that's when the wheels came off because PSG equalized immediately from the free kick. And then Hakimi shot from distance, was just parried into the path of Fariskilia and he. He scored the decisive gold, put PSG5 3 up on aggregate. So Monaco pulled him back and then Vouch Fast had that chance we were talking about right at the death. Ball was on a plate for him to head his past the PSG keeper, and he just didn't make contact with it. I think it was. It was a bad miss. Like you got at least get your head to it, you know, and we've seen him score decent headers in the Premier League.
- [30:04]
A
At both ends. At both ends. No, I'm gonna be harsh on about Fast, but you're right, he sort of jumps in a funny way. Just gets the timing wrong. And it is. It is a good chance, I suppose. Lars, we. So we talk about Real Madrid not quite being a Real Madrid level. And you sort of get that same sense with. With PSG as well.
- [30:21]
C
Yeah, it's funny one. We're just gonna forget about this tie, I think, very, very quickly, because both of the nights, it was one of the less interesting games, I think, of the evening. And Monaco is a team that just not many people care about. But it should be underlined just how close PSG were to going out here in terms of code, going to behind in the first leg. And then Monaco just picking up an inning, like, bizarre. Like stupidly you got a red card that should have been avoided. And it turned the game, and it helped turn the game anyway. And then here. Yeah, you are one vouch, fast header away from being knocked out. This is kind of a little bit alarming. I do still think, like, If I had to make a pick now, I still probably back PSG to win the tournament just because a lot of the other big teams have got stuff going on and you know that their ceiling is super high. But this was kind of alarming a little bit.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah. I suppose to be a pedant, it was a val fast header from going to extra time and less Val fast headers are worth two, you know, away goals don't count anymore. But yeah, Mark, you looked poised to say something interesting.
- [31:28]
D
First of all, I think psg, one of the problems this season is like last in the knockout stages last season they were relentless off the ball and would win the ball back, you know, and that would like high up the pitch and that would kind of take the pressure off the defense because the midfield and the forwards were, you know, just causing so many errors for opposition teams. Like, it's easier to score. It feels easier to score against PSG this season. Then they've, you know, gone. A room has departed. Chevalier was signed, did not play well at all and has now been dropped. So maybe they don't look as solid in goal as, as they did last season, but there's a, there's a greater vulnerability to their defense, which I don't think is just individually the defenders, but the way that the midfield and attack is or kind of isn't working. They're only a couple of points in France at the moment, which is a surprise. I think it would be a surprise to anybody that kind of. If you've not looked at the league on table for much of the season, you would assume it was already done, but it's not. And they've. They've been poor by their standards domestically. Like they've had a few injuries as well. And I do wonder about that club World cup back from the summer, they reached the final of that they'd obviously played all the way through having won the Champions League as well and just been harder for Luis Enrique to get the best 11 out on the pitch on a consistent basis. And I think last season in those knockout stages you could almost reel off like kind of 10 of the players that would start and hasn't quite been like that this season. That said, they still got such a frighteningly good attack, but they don't look as good as they were last season. But it wasn't until about this time last season that they really came alive. And one final point on at Clioge, PSG have been looking to sign the best French young players. I mean, he's definitely one of them and Might end up at PSG or a similar standard team next season. I think he showed his quality in this tie.
- [33:32]
C
I do think the Donnarumma thing is a low key big point here. We were talking about with Real Madrid that any game they go into in Bape Venezuel, those dudes can score some goals out of nothing. And then Courtois does something incredible and then you win. And all the other teams fuzzy stuff in midfield and team structure and all this nerd nonsense that people like me care about doesn't matter anymore. The PSG had the same thing, right? Claratskhelia can do stuff on his own. Dembele was incredible last season. Like all these players. And then Donna Roma could just completely save shots that are supposed to go in. One of those parts of the equation is missing now, like whether it's Siralia or Safano, it's just not the same. And that in the knockout games especially, I think that can really hurt them.
- [34:15]
A
Yeah. And I suppose when he was signed and everyone was for City and everyone's like, why have Man City bought this big oaf who can't kick the ball? You know, it turns out he's really good and we should have paid more attention.
- [34:29]
C
Goalkeepers who save the ball good actually is sort of one of the things we've learned.
- [34:33]
A
Yeah, totally. Thank you for your voice note yesterday, Lars, of you reflecting in the glory of Bodo Glimpse. James says I know very little about Norwegian player squad inclusion. Me both, James. But a Google search tells me that only two Boda players are in the national squad. I'd be interested to hear from Lars whether players from Norway's domestic league are well represented in the national team or whether there are just too many better players. Your thoughts?
- [34:57]
C
I mean it's a real throwback to the 90s this, because we used to have this as well. So we had this glorious period in the 90s under Egil Olsson when we qualified for two World Cups and at once we were second in the FIFA rankings and the national team was really going well at the same time as Rosenberg were playing regularly in the Champions League group stages. And then we're creating upsets. But there were always not that many Rosenberg players in the national team and that was always the source of like debate and schisms. This is starting to happen again now. Yeah, because there are, you know, Patrick Bag in. In midfield is always going to be in. Jens Betterhauger will have to be in the squad at least I think definitely one of the center halves. Because we have an issue at center half going into the World cup within, beyond. I think after that game has to be considered. And of course there's only one. I mean, yeah, there was Casper Ho up front is Danish, but almost the entire team is Norwegian except the goalkeeper, Nikita Hyken. I think there are efforts being made to try to get him Norwegian citizenship because I think he qualifies for it. He's, I believe he's Russian. Israeli is his background, but he's been in Norway for quite a long time and if he, if someone could dig up a Norwegian passport for him, I think he'd start for us in the World Cup. So there's some of that going on.
- [36:14]
A
Well, you could always go for Anthony Niemi, but you know, there we go. No, he's not, he's 53 tonight. Celtic in the Europa League. They're 4 1. Down they go. Stuttgart.
- [36:25]
B
Sorry Max, just in your fitback corner on Monday. We didn't address this, but there was some shocking, shocking Var decisions in the Scottish Premiership last weekend. Probably the most egregious, although Rangers fans may beg to differ, but was Aaron Trusty getting sent off for a nothing foul which the ref spotted. And it was basically someone grabbed Trusty's arm at a corner and he slapped it away and the ref went and had a saw, had a word with him and whoever it was that grabbed his arm and that was the end of the matter until Var intervened, re refereed the game and got Trusty sent off. And Martin o' Neill went off on one about this in his press conference yesterday, which it was a touch of old man yells at Cloud about it. But I couldn't have agreed more with him, you know, say he, he basically said, look, there will come a point that referees will just be superfluous to the game and everything will be reft from a. I don't know where the, the Scottish equivalent of Stockley park is, Max. Stockley Park. But yeah, I, I, I, I was applauding Martin.
- [37:50]
A
So then if he's not yet, then if it, then it's not old man yelling at Cloud, it's just old man yelling at middle aged man is sort of fine, isn't it? And I, I do like whenever, whenever managers say that they always like traduce Stockley park from like this sort of glitzy office into just a caravan, don't they? That's what they have to say. They have to say just in a shed, in a shed 3,000 miles away. But yeah, I mean I think we're all agreed just get rid of it. Nobody who wants it apart from Ifab then. We've already done Ifab. Maybe some people do, but I don't. As far as the three nil upon Fenerbache and Palace, one, all with Rinsky Mostar. It's interesting, Mark, what's happening at palace and they, because they still could and probably should win the Conference League, I guess.
- [38:35]
D
I mean, I would have said that at the start of the season. I'm not sure now. I mean, they'd still be among the favorites. Just, you know, Premier League wages, Premier League players. You are going to have an advantage in, in the Conference League, but, and it would be a big deal. And Crystal, you know, it was a big deal when they won the FA Cup. Glasner was talking about this in his press conference yesterday that palace have tried for 120 years to win every competition they've, they've been in and they haven't been that successful at doing so. It just doesn't feel right, though. And I'm not sure how that changes. You know, Zabana, you know, recently, wanting him from the palace fans, wanting glasses to go, like he, he feels like he's begging to be sacked and just,
- [39:18]
A
I know, I'm just trying to think, what else can he do? What else can he do? Like he's had a go at a board, the, you know, the fans. Yeah. Would you just turn around and face the wrong way?
- [39:29]
D
It's hard to know, it's hard to know what, what, what, what could come next and you know, maybe sort of come on, do a slide tackle or something and sort of end in disgrace that way. But yeah, I, I, I don't know, I, they should win it. And just in terms of like, that, like I say, like the financial advantage they've got. But, but they just, I, I, I'd almost be surprised if they did because I, I just don't like what they're serving up at the moment, really from a footballing point of view. And it would go against the grain of kind of what a club's supposed to be to be successful if they do go on and win it.
- [40:02]
C
She's interesting with Glassner I want to stick around with because I've read most, I think I've read most of the things he's said over the last couple of weeks. And the funny thing is I feel like pretty much everything he says is factually correct. Like when he starts bringing up like, this is actually a very good season for us and historically this is, but there is an element of just kind of saying the quiet part out loud with him. And it's also timing as well, because obviously they've won two in the last 16, I think is the record is, if you're a Palace fan, you've gone through this sort of cold, miserable English winter and you've paid a lot of money for tickets and the manager has said he's leaving. Like, he's, I'm out of here. Like, this place is beneath me. Peasants like this. And that is not the time for him to start delivering home truths about where the club actually belongs. Like, it just comes off really badly. But it's an odd one where, like when he says, actually, we've been very good and even being 13th is kind of good, it is objectively true. Right. Even if it's not what you necessarily want to hear as a Powers fan right now.
- [41:00]
A
All right, that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll do a little championship roundup and have a Premier League preview. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, Coventry, 1, 2, 1. Sheffield United came from behind at Bramble Lane. So they are now five points clear of Middlesbrough in second and nine points clear of Millwall in third. Millwall had a brilliant win over Birmingham, three nil. So well onto them. Birmingham are 10th, five points outside the playoffs. But, yeah, Millwall on 59 points in third place. Norwich beat Sheffield Wednesday. Stoke beat Oxford. Sheffield Wednesday down. Obviously. Oxford look like they're joining them. Baz. It's worth mentioning Sheffield Wednesday, when Chancery left and there was that sort of, you know, they had on the big screen, you know, rebooting, he's gone. And people were watching the live stream of his name being taken off the seats. You sort of thought, okay, they'll probably go down, but there's hope. But there's just. There's been another disappointing moment for them.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah, they rebooted and now they're in a serious buffer. So they've gone down as everyone knew they would. I think the earliest relegation in EFL history. But it looked like they were going to be taken over by a consortium led by this professional poker player called James Board. Every time I see his name in print, I think it's James Bond. And it's slightly disconcerting as him, a German crypto casino owner and a Jordanian businessman. I'm saying nothing.
- [42:38]
C
Okay.
- [42:39]
B
Anyway, they had bid. I think it's 40 million for the club. And they got a due diligence report from PricewaterhouseCoopers, the super accountants, and decided they'd bid. I think 8 to 10 million quid too much. So they've withdrawn their offer. So it's back to square one for Sheffield Wednesday whose fans are now unhappy as to why the administrators gave this shower preferred bidder status. But it they won us, I think it was a six way auction. So I presume Wednesday fans would be hoping that one of the other five will now step into the breach. But it's going to take time. They'll have to deal with the football regulator who will be in position by the time this goes through. And Mr. Board and his associates, they hadn't passed the fit proper persons test at the time they pulled out of the bidding. Which is not to say they wouldn't have, but they hadn't and whoever else steps in will, if someone steps in will have to pass that as well. So it could be a very time consuming process. And yeah, still loads and loads of uncertainty around Hillsborough despite the fact that they thought they had a new lease of life.
- [44:10]
A
It's a real shame for that. I mean absolutely devastating for those fans and not important. But if your chairman is called boredom, do you sing sack the board or just sack board? Which do you do in the Premier League? So in the title race, Leeds play Manchester City. That's the late game on Saturday and then on Super Sunday Arsenal play Chelsea. I suppose on paper, Mark, Arsenal, Chelsea is the most interesting of the fixtures.
- [44:35]
D
Yeah, absolutely standout game. If you go back to the sort of League cup tie they had recently, that second leg, like Chelsea shut Arsenal down for most of that 90 minutes. It was only right at the end that Arsenal got the winner, but they were already sort of one goal up at that point. And Rossinia was criticized in some quarters for his defensive approach to that game. I feel like that's the right way to go about it. Again though, from Chelsea's point of view, it's just whether that they can do that. Always feel like there's one mistake in them. Arsenal bounced back very well from the the Wolves game against spurs on on Sunday. Physically looked very strong. I think a lot, a lot will depend on kind of that game on Saturday because like City's away record's not amazing and like Leeds are on a fantastic run, albeit that Arsenal went there recently. One very convincingly like that. That looks like kind of almost like a more difficult game I would say, or as difficult a game for City as what Arsenal against Chelsea is. It's definitely not a gimme for Guardiola's team.
- [45:46]
A
No, I think you're right. And actually Lars, what's interesting is we said that about Arsenal's trip to Leeds. We were like, well this isn't it. And Arsenal went there and just said look, we're really good at this. And I think it's still true that the sort of floodlight law of Leeds have won every game where the floodlights come on. Right. I mean, okay, it probably come on at 4:30 on a Saturday, but like. So it's a late kickoff on a Saturday. 5:30, not 8. But they are brilliant under the lights at Elland Road. Make of that what you will, Lars. But yeah, it should be fascinating.
- [46:15]
C
So. So Ellen Road under the lights is the new Tuesday night at Stoke. This is the new thing.
- [46:22]
A
Yes. I don't know. It's different I think because I think isn't Tuesday night in Stoke because it's, it's unpleasant, but it is.
- [46:31]
C
But that's the whole thing about this Leeds team. They're really big and strong and physical. Like they are quite intense. Like you don't want to go into a 50, 50 which stack. That's not fun. Like he's very big.
- [46:41]
A
No, no, I agree with you. But there's a romance to Elland Road under the light that there isn't. At the Britannia on a cold, empty Tuesday.
- [46:51]
C
You're saying that Tony Pulisoko's not a romantic team.
- [46:55]
B
The Britannia on a wet Tuesday is more of a knee trembler up against the boss shelter.
- [47:00]
A
Okay, thank you, Barry. Thanks for your input so far in this Britannia.
- [47:06]
C
You know some places that is considered very romantic. Barry. That's.
- [47:12]
A
Anyway, that's the title race and then okay, Chelsea are in the race for those Champions League places alongside Villa who go to Wolves, Man United who has Crystal palace and Liverpool who host West Ham. So I, I, you imagine would be as you were with that, you know, third to sixth position.
- [47:32]
B
You would. On the face of it, I think Wolves might give Villa some problems. There's the, the geography. It's a derby of sorts. I know it's not the big Villa derby, but Wolves have significantly improved under Rob Edwards without necessarily getting the, the results of wins. I, I think they'll get a big win at some point this season. This could be it. Having said that, Villa could just as easily turn up and absolutely slap them down. But without the ball being kicked. I could see Wolves giving Villa more problems than West Ham will give Liverpool or Palace will give Manu.
- [48:13]
A
And from a Spurs point of view mark, hope West Ham lose. Hey, Tottenham go to Fulham in the, in the relegation fight. Tottenham go to Fulham and Forest Go to Brighton.
- [48:23]
D
Yeah, I. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:25]
A
How's your hope? How's your hope? Yeah, that wasn't even. It was just anguish that Mark Dan
- [48:31]
D
won a game this year. So in terms in the Premier League. So it's hard to fancy them to win any game at the moment. Confidence is absolute rock bottom. Like Danzo and Poro have returned to training this week, which I think will help in a number of ways. Poro being one of Tottenham's better players and also if Tudor wants to play for back three, having three center backs is at least a start to being able to do that. That should help in that regard. But I don't feel like enough people kind of outside of sort of real kind of close Tottenham watches. I know that Max and Large, you sort of would watch more than most as well. But like they've been in this relegation trouble I think for a while, definitely since they lost to West Ham. And it's only about now that people are starting to come to terms or grips with the fact that, you know, they really could be relegated. And like it's hard to. Just hard to think that they can win any game at the moment. I'm sure the way football is, you do just win a game eventually. Even Burnley have. Have done that. But like the. The team is not in a good place at all. And the raw that went up around the concourse when Liverpool scored in the 97th minute against Nottingham Forest on Sunday will tell you that just about every Tottenham fan knows the severity of this relegation battle. Because it's almost like relying on other teams to not be good enough to. To catch them. Rather than Tottenham taking care of their
- [50:09]
C
own business in late March, start of April, they have this run of playing Forest at home, Sunderland away, Brighton at home and Wolves away. That feels to me like the four games where spurs will probably find like one or two wins, which should be enough kind of depending on what West Ham do between now and the end of the season. And I kind of think everything between now and then is just Igor Tudor figuring stuff out, trying to get people healthy again. My expectations are not high and actually my takeaway from the Arsenal game honestly was Arsenal did try to mess that up. Like they did their best. Like they, they were the best team by a lot. But after they went ahead, Declan Rice just gave away a goal for no reason. In the same way Arsenal have been giving away goals for no reason against Wolves against Brentford. But unlike Wolves and Brentford, spurs were not good enough to, you know, take advantage of that. The spurs are just not. But yeah, it is quite dreadful at the moment. And the relegation form has been happening arguably even since before the season. You know, second half of last season, Ange would say, well, we were saving ourselves for Europe, but they finished 17th ahead of three, you know, unusually bad teams in the historical perspective. So this is more than. More than a year now of looking like a team that, you know, is right near the bottom of this league in Scotland.
- [51:28]
A
Baz Hart's host, Aberdeen, said expect them to win that. And then it is the Old Firm on Sunday at Ibrox at midday. And that is. I mean, they're always big. Maybe it's hyperbole, say, one of the biggest for a while, but, I mean, it's great for Hearts that one of those sides at least will drop points.
- [51:45]
B
Yeah. One presumes Harris wants a draw and they'll increase their lead with a win over Aberdeen. What. What Harris really don't need to do is focus too much on events in Glasgow and just take care of their own game. Win that and then just sit back and enjoy the Old Firm.
- [52:04]
A
Yeah. All right, well, that'll do for today. I've had a nice time. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Lars.
- [52:09]
C
Thank you, Max.
- [52:10]
A
Thanks, Mark.
- [52:11]
D
Thanks, Max.
- [52:12]
A
Cheers, Barry.
- [52:13]
B
Thank you.
- [52:14]
A
Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray. Our executive producer is Ian Chambers. We'll be back on Monday. This is the Guardian.