← Football Weekly.jpg)
Football Weekly
Benfica and Bodø/Glimt bring Champions League drama – Football Weekly Extra
00:54:55
Max Rushden is joined by Nick Ames, Nicky Bandini, Lars Sivertsen and Archie Rhind-Tutt to discuss a dramatic end to the Champions League group stage
Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:00]
A
This is the Guardian. Hello and welcome to Guardian Football Week. Kleana, Toli, Trubin. You're looking at an 8 out of 10 on the Jimmy Glass scale. At least a goalkeeper scoring the 8th minute of 5 minutes of injury time against 9 man. Real Madrid is the kind of drama UEFA were hoping for last night.
- [00:26]
B
And.
- [00:27]
A
And if you put 18 football matches on at the same time, something exciting will happen. Benfica the story then along with Bodo Glimpsed. We know they're good on plastic in sub zero temperatures, but to go to Athletian win to get into the playoffs is a stunning achievement. Five English clubs make it into the top eight. Arsenal were through already. Wins for Liverpool, Chelsea, spurs and Man City prove what we already knew about the strength of the Premier League. Harvey McVarn's had the chance to get them all in there. A draw at PSG not enough for Newcastle or psg. Maddening handball alert. We'll try and round up the rest of the games and look ahead to the Premier League weekend. If there's time, answer your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football. On the panel today, Nikki Bandini.
- [01:06]
C
Welcome.
- [01:06]
D
Morning.
- [01:07]
A
Hello. Lars Civiton.
- [01:08]
C
Hello, Max.
- [01:10]
A
Nick Aames is here. Hey, Nick.
- [01:11]
B
Hello, Max.
- [01:12]
A
And live from Lisbon, Archie Rin Tut, Archie. What a cameo for you.
- [01:17]
E
BUZZING Max, I've barely been able to sleep and I have no horse in this race. It's wild.
- [01:22]
A
Yeah. Our Ukrainian football expert friend Andrew Todo said a full hour on Trubin here. I mean, you were there to witness that winner. Just talk us through, talk us through that. Which puts them through at the expense of Marseille.
- [01:35]
D
Right.
- [01:35]
A
They needed that goal, hence Truman being up for the free kick.
- [01:39]
E
So to start with, Benfica could have won this game 8:2 and that wouldn't have been something to complain about, the fact that Kylian Mbappe is coming out and saying it could have been 51 at halftime. Real Madrid are not exactly the team who. Who were. Who were going to say, well, you know what, we really got battered there. But that tells you how well this Jose Mourinho team were attacking in such a fluid way that I was kind of double taking the whole game. The problem was, as you can tell by the fact that Anatoly Trubin had to go up is they weren't very good at putting their chances away. And the bizarre thing is that Jose Mourinho's assistants were. Were not keeping him in the loop enough to tell him, actually, we need to go for this because such was the way that there were these penalty shouts in the first half. One was given, one was scored by Evangelist Pavlides. But all of that meant that the Benfica game was about five minutes behind everyone else. So in a way, I know that there will be conspiracy theorists out there going, ah, another masterstroke by Jose Mourinho, making sure his team knew exactly what they had to do come the final minute.
- [02:51]
C
But.
- [02:51]
E
But it's not like anyone knew what they had to do. To the point that I'm down one end of the stadium where the goal didn't happen, and I can just see wave after wave of Benfica fan exclaiming, hands on the heads. You have to go for it. Do you not know what's about to happen? We're about to go out. And so Trubin just thought everyone was, like, losing their shit over the fact of, oh, we might beat Real Madrid. So he's looking around, being, like, calm, calm. He's actively trying to waste time before. Then the. Finally the message gets through, oh, we need to go for this now we're in the 96th minute of the game. And so he pumps the ball long, they win a free kick, and then finally the message gets through to him. You need to go up, like, right now. And then after that, I'm watching it and I just see the ball go in and I'm like, the goalkeeper scored. No, no, he didn't.
- [03:48]
D
He.
- [03:49]
E
The goalkeeper scored. Anatoly Troupe. What? I just could not. There were so many blurs. I just see this swarm of Benfica players invade the pitch and trail round Trubin and just the stands and just seeing the jumping and, like, Benfica have not got a great history of fantastic European moments. Like, for them, stuff is meant to go wrong at the worst time in European football. So I think you could really tell that for them, they couldn't quite believe that they had this. And the fact that they've not played Real Madrid since 1965, which, given the amount of football that we have these days, is something I still can't get my head around. And so for them to have this moment against Real Madrid and for it to be this player is. Is something I cannot comprehend still.
- [04:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, it is. I don't know, Nikki. I think, like, we like to analyze football, hopefully in a more than superficial way, but really, at the end of it all, a keeper sort of lolloping up field and bizarre. I feel like there is a magnetism when a keeper's in the box that people don't know how to mark them. The ball goes near Them, they might not score, but all those things are just. Everyone is like, I am absolutely here for this.
- [05:11]
D
Yeah. I mean, it needs to be said, it was actually a really good header. Like, that wasn't just like, oh, it smacked him in the face and rebounded in. That was. It looked like a striker's head of the way he took it, but it. Archie's nailed it. Like, Trubin had no idea that this was an important moment. About 60 seconds before he's up there in the penalty area, he thought, we're winning this game. It's great. Everything's where it's supposed to be. Mourinho said that in his post game press conference that even with his substitutions, he didn't know that any of this mattered. At the same time, though, I was thinking as Archie was saying all that about Mourinho, masterstrokes when we rewrite the narrative. But is this going to be a takeaway lesson from this night of chaos that we're going to be talking about? Because it was. I think it was great. I think Max seems more on the fence about it than I do. I flipping loved it last night, but it was brilliant. But is the takeaway going to be, make sure you do a good amount of shit Housery in the first half because you really want the extra time at the end of the second half. So you know whether your keeper has to go up in the 90s, 25th minute to score the winner for you. Like, maybe that's, maybe that's important information because goal difference mattered. Goal difference matched quite a lot in the end.
- [06:17]
A
Yeah, it was Lars. I mean, I'm just asking the same question now, but I think it's worth it. But you know, there are, for me, there are, there's. We'll get to Boto Glint. They're the two headlines from this. I, I don't want to be grumpy about it. I just sort of. I'm not sure if this is how we should consume football, watching 18 games at the same time, but for one evening, for one evening only, yeah, it's probably worth it. And this was just such a standout moment.
- [06:39]
C
I, I wrestled with. Yeah, there was too much. I mean, there's too much information to take in. I found it was very difficult. It was enjoyable, but there was too much going on, especially towards the end where, like, I was like a lot of people watching the goal show primarily to try to get a good helicopter view of what was going on. But then towards the end I had to watch Border glim Because we'll get to it. But that is probably the biggest result in Norwegian club football history. So I couldn't not watch the last 10 minutes of it. But that also meant I missed some other stuff that was going on. Like, there was nowhere. Yeah, it was that thing when you're in the. Is this a fairground thing? They put you in the machine with the money that flies around and then they turn on the fan and then the money goes everywhere and you try to grab the money. Sounds like a crystal maze. It was a bit like that. You know, that's what it was though, Niki. It was the crystal maze of football. This. I mean, we're gonna get years where there's even more big things at stake here in terms of, like, big teams not qualifying, more English teams that a lot of people care about being on the verge of not qualifying. So it's going to get even more chaotic, I think, which above all is a challenge for podcasters. Future podcasters might have a. Might have an issue there, but it was fun.
- [07:52]
D
Just to pick up on what Max said there, though, Like, I mean, that's the once a year thing. I agree. Like, if this was every week too much, but that's kind of what they've successfully done, is we now have like an extra event day in the calendar. Obviously, you know, you've got the Champions League final, that's an event everyone looks forward to. But this is now going to be every. Every year, like, oh, it's that day. And it becomes like an annual thing that people look forward to. I think. I think from a fan point of view, obviously, for a lot of fans, really what they're interested in is just their specific club and, and those fans will be at their club's game and they will be. Or watching their club's game on tv and they won't. They won't give us stuff for everything else. But I think from a. From a spectator point of view, from a. That the fans, who aren't as invested in one team point of view, I think that this is. It's. It's where sport has always been trending, but is moving more and more, which is into these big event occasions. And it is, I think, an event occasion. Now, this final day of the Champions.
- [08:45]
B
League, it's clippable football, isn't it? I mean, hopefully we'll get on to a bit more of the sort of football and sporting ramifications. But I don't know, just. Just anecdotally, I don't think any of my WhatsApp groups last night of friends who like football but aren't football journalists were watching these games. I don't think they were watching the games. I don't think they were even watching my gold show. But they were aware of what had happened at about 10 o' clock and sending links on Twitter bluesky, whatever. And I think that's the road that this showpiece event goes down. Now I personally don't like that much as I enjoyed the evening very much actually. I don't think UEFA and its stakeholders will care that much as long as the broadcast rights money is still pouring in. And I guess we'll see in a generation's time or possibly a bit more quickly than that, wherever that is brought to bear. But it's. It's. It feels like a bit of a dirty pleasure last night, to be honest. It's. It's clippable football. Not. Not the real thing.
- [09:48]
A
I like the. I like that. You know, on the one hand we're saying that this is capable and quick and then you're just saying we have to wait a generation to see if it's gonna work or not. That feels like even for me as a legacy fan, waiting too long. Archie. We even. We even. It even made us happy for Jose, right? You spoke to him afterwards, but you know, him and a ball boy.
- [10:05]
C
Speaking of dirty pleasure.
- [10:07]
A
Yeah. Ex.
- [10:08]
E
I just wanted to add the change in. In. In competition structure has meant it's become less about the sport and more about the entertainment in the. In terms of sporting merit has. Has stopped being as. As important. But I think also because it was. It was so clear who the best teams were that now that is. Is much more murky to see. And in terms of entertainment that is as we've seen last night, you have over 20 clubs who are almost in a final on the final match day and. And teams play with. With a different. With a different mindset. That's why Bodo glimpsed, I think were able to get themselves up for this game against Athletico. Whereas who knows, in a usual group of four, they. They might not have already been still in the competition. Jose, last night. There are a few things that will really stay in my head about last night. One, for example, was walking out the stadium and seeing these Benfica fans kind of circling like vultures, almost looking for a bit like. And someone coming up to me going, are you from Spain? Are you from Spain? No, no, I'm from England. Oh, why are you here? And I was like, what? Like because. Because the football is. Isn't it great?
- [11:25]
A
That.
- [11:25]
E
Yeah. And then kind of just walking away, and this other guy comes up to me and he's kind of clutching an Anatoly Trubin plastic cup and he's going, truben, Trubin. And I was like, oh, can I. Can I take a photo of that? Sure. And he's like, oh, no, but get a photo with me in it as well. I was like, okay. So I took a kind of reluctant selfie with him just smiling away. And Trubin in the tunnel as well. I think he was okay when I spoke to him as well. And he was saying he didn't know that he had to be up 60 seconds before. But also, he seemed quite a reluctant hero. He was walking around and he was. There was a look on his face being like, well, if I'd known that I'd have to do this much media, I'm not sure I would have actually.
- [12:09]
A
Wanted to score, to be honest.
- [12:12]
E
This is. This is quite a lot. But the memory that, like, the core memory that will stick in my mind is seeing Jose Mourinho walk out of the Benfica dressing room straight after full time, and Dean Howse and his former player at Roma is there. And this is how I wanted to start the interview with Mourinho as well. However, due to the way that broadcasting works. And you can't swear, I couldn't start with what he said to Dean Howison because he just went up and he huffed.
- [12:41]
A
That's so good.
- [12:42]
E
That is.
- [12:42]
A
That is. You know, the elite level is Sunday league all at the same time, isn't it? And that's perfect. Hey, Archie, you can go away now. You've done your job. Thank you, my friend.
- [12:50]
E
Thank you. Cheers.
- [12:51]
A
Cheers. Archie Rintel there out in Lisbon. Just a quick one, Lars, on Real Madrid, you know, drop it down into the playoffs. Not ideal for Arboloa. Does it matter? I mean, look, PSG won from the playoffs last time. It's not a disaster. Yeah.
- [13:06]
C
I feel like everything that happens at Real Madrid now is more almost like a referendum on the players than on Arboloa, because they had a manager who's quite a good manager who was telling them what to do, and they basically told him to get fucked. So there's like, okay, we don't. We know we don't have this manager who will tell them what to do now. We're just going to do it by, you know, how the big stars want to do it. So if they screw up now, it's kind of on them. And I think absolutely. Getting played off the park at times it seems, at least in terms of the chances they conceded. You know, conceding four goals to Benfica, having two red cards towards the end of the game. It's just a. It's quite a dismal failure. I think maybe. Maybe an experienced coach at the. Out the side of the pitch who could tell them what to do. Would have been. Would have been. Would have been a good thing here.
- [13:55]
A
Yeah. If they listened. So as we've established, Ben Figuera. So Marseille went out because of that goal. They lost three nil at Club Bruges. They started this competition pretty well, but finished 25th, the worst of all places. But Simon Minou is still playing and he made a lot of saves for Bruges, so nice to see him there. Let's go then to The Bodo win 21 away at Athletic and. And as you've said, like, we know they're good at home, we know they're good on that artificial surface, we know they're good when it's really cold. But to go to the 1 de Metropolitana, go a goal down and. And to come back is. Is brilliant.
- [14:29]
B
Yeah.
- [14:30]
C
And the context here is as well is that they haven't played the league game since November. Their last league game, I believe, was the 30th of November. Then they played that away game at Dortmund in the Champions League where they got a point and on the 10th of December turns out to be an important point. But that set them up so that they just needed to beat City and at Lesco Madrid away to qualify, to give themselves a chance at qualifying, which is unbelievable, really. So since I believe it's October 2024, two teams have beaten Atletico Madrid away, which is Barcelona and Border Glimpse, which is what?
- [15:06]
A
Wow.
- [15:06]
C
Make any sense? It's absolutely absurd and we've talked about it here a few times. I think Jan Og Fiortoff made a Good point. It's nine out of 11 players in the starting lineup are Norwegians as well. And the goalkeeper Nikita Haken is in the process of receiving Norwegian citizenship. I believe. Actually he's joining our side. But yeah, it's a genuine Cinderella story without big money behind it. It's built on a local identity, built on a football identity. You've got a number of players who have been successful enough at Boda Dimm that they've gotten offered to play abroad. They've gone abroad, they've decided they don't like it and come back to Buda. And it made me chuckle. So Jens Petalhaugu is One of them, who's the very talented Win, who's played at Milan, played at Frankfurt, never quite made it. He said after the game that in terms of what we did with the ball, it was one of our worst games this year. Which raises a few questions. Obviously they're not played too many games this year. I think he means last season as well. I mean the other game they played this year was beating Man City. But I think the point was more like they weren't able to. They're self critical to the point where they were saying, oh, we weren't really able to do what we were usually do with the ball here. But they still stayed rugged and disciplined and held off and it's an absolutely unbelievable achievement and you can't really lay any of the usual caveats of the playing surface or the temperature or the fact that it's really far north or all the other things people complain about. You know, they've done it away from home as well. Absolutely unbelievable.
- [16:37]
A
Yeah, it's, it's so good, isn't it? And so you would say the greatest because we're having this discussion last week about the City game, but this trumps that for those reasons.
- [16:47]
C
I think it does. So the only, the other touchstone is when Rosenberg beat Milan away from home. And 96, I'd like to say could have been 97. 97, yeah. Oh, you've looked it up. That's so annoying.
- [17:01]
A
I just know these, I know these things. Lars, come on.
- [17:04]
C
Ah, yeah, they had the Hagen goal because that was, that, that was a good Milan team on paper, but I think they were going through some kind of crisis at the time. I, I think a vote for that is more of a nostalgia vote. I think beating City and then Atletico Madrid away, being only the second team since 2024 to beat them away from home to qualify is, is absolutely the next level. And I think what we also need to point but bear in mind, I think it is harder for smaller clubs now than it was 20 years ago. I just think it is, I mean 30 years ago because the financial discrepancies have gotten so large now to build and to keep a team together when you're from a smaller league now is harder than it was 30 years ago. The concentration of elite level talent in these sort of handful of elite clubs is even more extreme than it was 30 years ago. So I do think this is on a different level and I just love fact that it's done without massive financial backing because it really should be an example if you are from A smaller country, if you're supporting a smaller club, like I keep saying this, but like 10 years ago they were in the second tier in Norway. Like it is possible. You can, your, your team can be quite, quite bad. And within your, and within this decade it is theoretically possible for them to achieve these sorts of things. Even without some kind of shady kleptocrat putting billions into it, you know, it is still just about possible.
- [18:27]
B
I agree with Lars. I think they're single handedly saving European football at this point. I think genuinely given the gross accumulation of resources that we see basically in almost every position above them in this Champions League ranking and in many of them below, to do what they have done and to show that sound management, steady, steady growth, building, not splashing millions around it, consistency, a style of play that is bought into. I just think it's the most incredible thing going on in European football at the moment by a distance and I think people should know it. It's remarkable. And I mean they've got. Who is it in the playoffs. I think they could play real or Inter.
- [19:10]
A
Inter, yeah.
- [19:11]
B
And you just, after, after this, you couldn't not give them a chance. I remember their draw with Dortmund a few months ago when it looked like that was just a nice souvenir back. And as Lars has just outlined, they've turned it around incredibly. And I think it's the most important story going on in European football right now. I also think it's not one that should blind people to the wider structural issues that are still cutting out half of the continent from the elite level. But that's a broader debate, I guess.
- [19:43]
D
Yeah, there's like a second thread to that, which is I suppose the fact that Premier League clubs are very, very rich and Premier League clubs are very dominant in this table, which I'm sure we'll get to. But the question I wanted to come to throw at Lars actually is like, what's the, what's the secret sauce? I guess because it's not just Bodeo, obviously.
- [20:01]
A
Norway surely is, Harry, surely it's, it's herring, isn't it?
- [20:05]
D
But, but we always, we always do this in football, don't we? You know, you get countries, brands of football tend to have their moments of up and down and it feels like right now Norway is as up as I can ever remember it being. Again, like the, the World cup qualifying. It wasn't just that they finished ahead of Italy. They beat everyone and they battered everyone. Is there something, is there something that, that maybe we aren't seeing or Is it one of those cyclical things or.
- [20:27]
C
Well, we've actually been worried a little bit about the month of January because early Holland wasn't scoring. You know, Sheldrup wasn't getting in the team. You know, what's going on with Oscar Bob? Like, there's a few little question marks going into the, Going into the. Looking ahead to the World cup, but, you know, yesterday was a good day for Norway. We had Sheldrup scoring two goals for Benfica. I mean, Jose Mourinho said to Archie after the game, I can't believe Archie didn't bring this up. But Mourinho said about the goal that the most important thing is that the delivery is good, which I think is harsh on Truman. But Jose said the most important thing is that the delivery is good. Now, of course, that was Frederick Ausnes, the Norwegian who sadly doesn't play for the national team right now. But, you know, I just think it's with smaller countries. I mean, such a boring answer, but I think with smaller countries you have generations, you know, you have stronger and weaker generations. And I'm very, very lucky that right now we have an unbelievable generation going. In terms of the secret sauce of Border glimpsed, I think that's an interesting question because even as they've gotten. Even as they've had these European adventures, you know, beating Roma, getting to the Europa League semi final, they now have quite a bit of money by Scandinavian context, just because they brought in. I mean, they're not spending a lot of it, but they brought in a lot of cash. And so far they've mostly spent it on handing out decent contracts to returning players. These guys who went abroad and decided they'd be interested in coming back, handing out a good contract by Scandinavian standards to their coach, I keep waiting for them to try to turn into the Scandinavian. The Norwegian FC Copenhagen trying to FCA Copenhagen, kind of hoover up the most talented teenagers from the region and not shy in terms of spending money and Border Glimpse are mostly just kind of keeping it local, keeping it. They're not spending any of this money really compared to what they could do, and they're keeping faith with the guys they have. And it's an interesting case of how I think, think the community that you can create, the, the connections between players, the strength of the system actually can enable you to punch up a little bit compared to the sort of absolute individual talent that you come up against if you're able to keep a group together. I, I think that's the sort of really interesting case study from A footballing sense that's. That's happening up there.
- [22:45]
A
A stunning generation of Norwegian footballers and a stunning generation of Norwegian football pundits. Lars, we are lucky to be alive in this time. That'll do for part one. Part two. We'll rattle through the Premier League side. Rest of the million or so games that were on last night.
- [23:04]
F
In a world where January is supposed to be boring, one staple of the holidays refuses to end. The great deals at Verizon. The joy just keeps on coming. Right now you can save on four new phones and four lines. Critics agree it's the deal that keeps on giving. Come into Verizon and save on four new phones and four lines on unlimited. Welcome. Additional terms apply@seeverizon.com for details.
- [23:41]
A
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So let's do psg. Newcastle first. That draw, not really good for either of them. And Nikki Harvey Barnes has the such a massive chance, doesn't he? Three minutes to go to get what would have been a brilliant win for. For Newcastle.
- [23:56]
D
Hard to sort of get a handle on whether it would have felt like a deserved win or not. Because on the one hand, I mean, PSG did create more chance through the game. Obviously it was a great penalty save from Pope at the beginning, which felt like justice because that penalty was just, oh, my God. Such a horrible. I mean, I don't know.
- [24:11]
A
That is. Sorry, that is abolish IFAB levels for me. Like Barkala. I mean it. He punches the ball into. I wouldn't give a handball against Barclay either. But he punches the ball into Lewis Miley's hand. Surely you can't go, that isn't a handball and that is a handball. It's utterly. It is obscene. And like, in a way, actually, you have to give credit to the pgmol. Sorry, it's your answer, Nikki, but because at least the handball law in the Premier League is terrible but not that bad. But, like, no referee could go, this is what the fans want. Nobody can want this. Like, I don't. I know I'm yelling at people, people who either. It's not achieving anything, but I don't think IFAB listened to anybody. They're impossible to reach this unaccountable body. I just can't stand it. But anyway, do carry on.
- [24:55]
D
I've just got this image now of iFab AI chatbot that you're trying to get through to the department on and Max is furiously typing. They just cannot get through to the right.
- [25:03]
A
Looks like you're trying to ask a question yeah. Do these answers help off?
- [25:08]
D
Yeah.
- [25:08]
A
AI IFAB bot.
- [25:10]
D
There's no point analyzing that penalty. Is anyone who's seen it understands what we're talking about. And you just. Just said hey yeah. From one arm to another. How is one arm okay and one arm not? It seems ridiculous but PSG were better for a long stretch and if anything the Newcastle equalizer for halftime felt like. Oh well that's a bit of a surprise. But in the second half, as you said, once the two substitutions come in, once Barnes and Gordon come onto the pitch, the game really shifted. The directness that gave Newcastle that really felt like they ended in the ascendancy and could have taken all three points. So it was. It was definitely an impressive performance away from home. Slightly hard to know exactly what to make of it from the point of view that this is PSG and they are the defending champions and we expect better of them. Because of course everyone can just point at the fact that they didn't get in the top eight last season either. And they went on to absolutely clubber everyone in the. In the knockout round. So who knows. But certainly, I mean even however. However they feel about all. Maybe we could have won that at the end. I think you can't really say, oh, going away to PSG and getting a point is some bad result. Is it still a good result?
- [26:14]
A
Yeah. And Nick, like getting into the top eight is. It's not so much getting through to the next round, it's just not having to play two more football matches. Which sort of feels counterintuitive about, you know, you win games to play more games. But in this, this case it's just two games that certainly Newcastle with their injuries do not need.
- [26:31]
B
Yes, the aim is to deprive yourself of football. Which seems. Seems slightly strange but maybe sensible given the proliferation of it these days. And I think, yeah, look, Newcastle as we know have been pretty stretched for some time. Would probably have liked to avoid the playoff. But I think they're probably quite pleased to be in there and to be putting up dog eared performances like last night ultimately was. And also we don't need another English team in that top eight, do we? We've got so many of them already.
- [27:03]
D
Newcastle's draws look very favorable as well. Just to add to that, like the two games Monaco Carabag they could have. Yeah, Monaco Carabag I would solidly expect them to beat.
- [27:13]
A
Yeah, I think so. No, but you're right about how many English teams you could possibly get. You know, the coefficient will keep changing eventually. There'll be 10 English teams in the top eight. We'll say that is. That is clearly too many, isn't it?
- [27:24]
B
I think, like, I don't know if I'm interjecting too early on this point, but I just think it's a massive concern, honestly. Like, I know there'll be champagne corks popping in neon where UEFA are based at, at the level of drama that we saw last night and all massively enjoyed, but five English teams in the top eight, six in the top, what is it, 12? Something's not right there. It shows. And we probably need to see this to be fair, over a longer period of time, another generation to see it borne out. We can't jump to conclusions, but it does seem this year to bear out the idea that the Premier League clubs can stock up such deep, deep squads with such incredible resource compared to everyone else, roll out whatever rotated team they need to go with and still do absolutely fine. Now that can bring different consequences later on in the knockout stage. As we've seen before, because of the amount of games, some European teams are maybe a bit fresher, etc. Etc. But at the moment it's a bit, a bit of a pulverization in my book and it's been very entertaining lower down the table. But is that because the other European teams are concertina ing and the Premier League is streaking away? I don't know. But it is not a pleasant look and it isn't lost in non Premier League boardrooms across Europe when future formats are looked at, et cetera. I think.
- [29:01]
A
Sure. And I think, Lars, the flip answer is would the only sort of flip side to that is, as Nicholas alluded to, is it doesn't mean an English side will win it, you know, because there are some other teams that are, you know, big and good and have lots of money who will be pushing in the latter stages.
- [29:15]
C
Well, yeah, of course, because that's the joy of knockout tournaments. But I would expect, I mean another ranking that was came out recently where the English were dominating was the annual sort of Deloitte financial report, right. So the Deloitte money like thing came out recently and six out of the top 10 clubs in the world by revenue are English, right? So the six out of the top 10. So it doesn't shock me that we're then seeing the six English teams amongst the top 12 in this tournament. The only difference really is yeah, you have on the money side, United are in the top 10, but they're not in the Champions League. Substitute Newcastle United, who have a Little bit of money behind them. I think it's fair to say it's not hugely shocking to see that that's how it is it how it ends up. This format has. I think it is a weakness. The format has delivered fun. You can't deny that. But it's an even safer, you know, Runway for. You have to mess up a lot to not qualify at all. So I think it's for the big, rich teams, it's. It's very, very comfortable format. Even if there are some extra games in there for their schedules, which I guess was the point of the format. That's why it was introduced. It was. It was supposed to. Even more content. Even less of a chance to lose big teams in the group stages and enough scraps for the rest of us to enjoy, I guess, is the idea. And reluctantly, that seems to be. It seems to be delivering on all fronts. What a night for the Swiss.
- [30:43]
D
There's a weird, like, part of this which I think maybe hasn't been talked about much, which is an extra advantage that the English clubs have in this league phase is they can't play the other English clubs, so they can't run into these other rich clubs. Whereas. So, for instance, like talking about it was. It's pretty narrow in the top eight spots, right? It's pretty narrow. Like we're talking about all these English clubs getting in. I mean, there's a point difference between quite a few of them not being in there, right? And look at the fact that, say, a team like Inter, I'm picking them just because they're the champions league finalists last season in any time and currently top Serie A. Well, they had three losses. One of which was against Liverpool, one of which was against Arsenal. And you know, those are games you can lose. The other one was away to Atletico Madrid, which clearly Bodo didn't lose there. But a lot of teams do.
- [31:29]
A
Most teams lose. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:30]
D
But meanwhile, I'm. And I'm gonna get absolutely roasted for this now because. Because everyone knows I'm an Arsenal fan. But it's just easy to pull out the example of Tottenham. Tottenham played two teams that finish in the top half of this group. They played VRL, who were 35th. They played Eintracht Frankfurt, who were 33rd. Copenhagen, who were 31st. Slavia Prague, who were 34th. Monica, who were 21st. And then Bodo, of course, 23rd, Dortmund 17th. There are very different schedules going on here. One advantage that you've got there is you're not going to play the other English clubs who are Likely to finish the top half.
- [32:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, I suppose. I suppose the way Tottenham. I suppose the way Tottenham are tearing it up in the Premier League would mean that they probably would have beaten lots of top teams anyway. Can I ask you, Nikki, about Napoli losing to Chelsea? I mean, we'll do both sides there. I mean they turned it around. They're two one up. Did you have hope at that moment?
- [32:23]
D
I have distinct fatalism whenever I watched any Antonio Conte team in Europe. I feel like no matter what the journey is to get there, we know where the destination is, which is going to be a disappointment. I. I will say Napoli. Look, Napoli have been dealing with as much as Conte is a professional elite level. I would say, Mona, when it comes to injuries and stuff, he is dealing with quite an injury crisis at the moment. When you think about all the players who he hasn't had available from, obviously someone like De Bruyne, you kind of go, well, you signed De Bruyne, you know he's going to miss some time, but he's. He was part of the project this season. But then also players like Anguissa, even someone like Billy Gilmour who hasn't been there, Lukaku did come back in this game, but hasn't been there for most of you can go on. The list is really long Rahmanian defense. Like it's been a really, really long injury list for them. You see that in fact, in the fact that their first goal in this game is scored by Antonio Vergara, which is a great story by the way. Great goal, fantastic goal. Homegrown player who is so unknown that at the weekend when he was playing against Juventus, they have this great ref cam in Italy this season where the referees are all have got cameras on them. So you're seeing their interactions with players, which is often hilarious. But the weekend the referee and game against Juventus was trying to talk to Vergara in English because he didn't know he was. And they just assumed he was a foreign player and speak to me in Italian like, I don't know what you're saying. So.
- [33:50]
A
So they are.
- [33:52]
D
They are stretched Napoli and I thought the first half coming back from a goal down was some of the most impressive football they've played in a while. Honestly, they're on not a good run right now. They've won, I think one of the last seven games nor competitions. To some extent it's the same conversation we've been having. Premier League quality and depth just showed. I mean Joao Pedro scored an absolutely screaming goal to make it two.
- [34:11]
A
Two brilliant goal.
- [34:13]
D
And then. And then obviously Cole Palmer's come off the bench who, who came back to fitness is going to make a big difference for them and. And sets them up for another one. Chelsea were great in the second half and they deserve to win and they're the better team. But this isn't where. This isn't where Napoli failed to qualify. Napoli failed to qualify because in the last round they were a goal up and a man up against Copenhagen after 40 minutes and they should have put that game to bed about 50 times and wound up drawing it. And that's why they're not going through.
- [34:38]
A
Yeah, just on Conte. Eight Champions League campaigns, four group stage exits, two knockout wins. 2012, 2013 Home and away to Celtic. That's it. And a big result for Liam Rossini now has five wins in his opening six off the pitch. A Chelsea supporter was stabbed and taken to hospital on Tuesday night in Naples. Chelsea said the club's aware of an incident that took place on Tuesday evening. Two fans are being treated in hospital having sustained non life threatening injuries. We wish them well. Of course. Spurs won 2 nil at Eintracht Frankfurt. Lars.
- [35:07]
C
Yeah Frank in Frank Ing I mean it was kind of meaningless to try to like make any detailed analysis of any of the 18 games as they were going on. But by all accounts looking at numbers and reports from people who were there, spurs were quite good. Seems to be they were quite good against the Frankfurt team who aren't doing very well at the moment. But this seems to be like. Like they're not terrible. Frankfurt and and Tottenham by all accounts were good. So that's not a sentence we've been able to say out loud a lot recently. So good for them.
- [35:37]
A
Yeah. Move to a three. Four.
- [35:38]
C
Three.
- [35:39]
A
Odeba and Simmons played pretty well. Two center forward scored goals.
- [35:45]
C
Obviously the the two two against Burnley was not good at the weekend but I saw the first half of that and I don't hate the back three for. For Tottenham. I do. I do think that possibly solves some of their issues and open up some opportunities. So interesting one to maybe this is the way for Frank. Especially given how incredibly difficult their fixture list is going forward. That. That is the thing I was thinking when I saw how they lined up against Burnley. They've got City, Manchester United, Newcastle and Arsenal in their next four. So just sticking three center halves in there and trying to get through that run alive is probably not a bad strategy for Thomas. Frank.
- [36:21]
A
Yeah man. City like had to win to be sure. And Nick, they made Sort of priest. Pretty easy work of Galatesro.
- [36:28]
B
They yeah that was pretty quick out. Quick out of the blocks. Dealing with, with what, what looked on paper a very sticky assignment I've got to say. Quickly, lots of hand wringing before especially I'm sure in Norway about Erling Haaland's relative lack of goals. But the way he took that one was absolutely sensational. Just the way he took that through ball in his stride and just sort of scooped it as it bubbled up a bit. That was not the sign of a man who is lacking confidence. Nice second goal I think was Cherokee wasn't it with a sort of cut low drive. That was really, really nice And I didn't get the impression they were threatened too much after that. So you know they've only squeaked through in 8th largely because of that defeat in Buddha. But I think they'll be perfectly happy with what's gone on in this group stage and you, you, you feel always there's a bit more to come from them.
- [37:27]
A
Liverpool beat Carabag 6 nil. Florian verts and got his first Champions League goal for Liverpool. Nice finish Mo Salah scored a lovely mo salary goal so that should give him some confidence. Ekatike got a good center forwards.
- [37:40]
E
Goal.
- [37:40]
A
MacAllister got two and Chiesa scored in the last minute. Nikki, I mean as someone who's always loved Chiesa how do you feel about him being a sort of scores occasionally late on for Liverpool player was there.
- [37:50]
D
That I'm someone who's always loved him because I think you've always loved Kiesa.
- [37:53]
A
Well I've always loved but I, I sort of got that from you. I, I think I got it from you.
- [37:58]
D
Yeah, I do have a soft spot for him. I mean I'd love to see him doing this more regularly and then maybe could contribute to Italy and then desperate hopes of actually qualifying for a World cup for once. But it was nice to see him get it. What's nice I think about it is even just the way he's celebrated you don't feel like even, even though he hasn't been a regular, you don't feel like he's not part of the group. You don't feel like he's not part of the, the equation there. Obviously this is not a particularly important goal in the grand scheme of things but you just see the way that people interact with each. Well he's still, he's still part of this and he's still, he's still involved. But I wanted to say I thought Ekatike Was. Was the standout here. He looked really, really sharp. Some of his movements. He looked really, really on it.
- [38:34]
A
Arsenal beat Kohra at 3:2. I mean Nick, not a huge amount to say about this game. Arsenal have won all eight in the group stage, conceding only three. They made 11 changes and their team still looked quite good.
- [38:45]
B
Yeah, this was. This was a 1:1 to tick off, but one where you don't want an embarrassment after the. The weekend's result against United. Was it an. In the end it was probably a lot closer on paper than I think it should have been and looked on grasp but there was, you know, a few players getting their eye in in quite a useful way. Jokers with a good early goal who hasn't really looked worth the fee. Let's be honest. And personally I saw that coming. But good for him. Kai Havertz is probably the big one there. Isn't he coming back with that contribution? It's going to go looking sharp. And here's a player who Michael Arteta, as we've covered on here before, I think absolutely loves both for what he provides in football terms, but also in character and willingness to do the job asked of him. I think he'll raise some upper level in that department, frankly. And I think the big headline for Arsenal last night was him looking so sharp.
- [39:45]
A
Athletic 2 Sporting 3 so this is late winner Lars for Sporting did change the complexion, right. They needed Benfica to help them. They don't love each other. Sporting and Benfica would knock Real Madrid down. But this actually was a really good game from the, you know, the highlights that I saw.
- [40:00]
C
Yeah, it looked lively. A little bit of a shame for Athletic. For me, the way their season is is. Is going that they're struggling domestically and that they weren't really able to make a. A significant impact. I say they weren't really able to make a significant impact. They took one point less than both of them to have saved European football. So these are the margins. You know, we.
- [40:20]
B
There's no.
- [40:22]
C
It did strike me this watching and paying more attention to this end of the table for obvious reasons it's come down to one point and like goal difference and stuff. So I think if you take anything away from. From this for next season and for future iterations, the teams who are just kind of hoping to get through really absolutely everything matters. All these games like the fact that you getting blown out by a team is worth avoiding because that. That golden difference in that one point and it was very, very tight down there.
- [40:51]
B
Can I just say how much I Loved the winning goal of Sporting and you know, similarly to what we saw in the Benfica game, it was an old fashioned, old school bench clearer. People running everywhere, random men in bomber jackets and suits that you'll never see again in your life. Injured players recovering like Lazarus and throwing their crutches behind them. Just like absolutely everything going on. Just pure, pure visual perfection. If we're talking about clippable football, it was an old school bench clear.
- [41:26]
A
Yeah, wasn't it? Athletic had a corner and then like the sportkeeper gets it and it's just. Is that the goal? Because there were so many. But you know, it's this sort of blistering counter attacking. Like, how are they so free? I mean, how is that possible? But anyway, yeah, it was, it was a great moment. Bayern won 2:1 at PSV. Nice to see Musiala back fit. I thought he was out forever, so that surprised me. And Harry Kane with a sort of Blackburn Shearer type finish. You know, it was just like, there's no way he's not going to score here. And he did. So, you know, they've had a good time. Leverkusen beat Villarreal 3 nil into 12 nil at Dortmund. Not quite enough to make the top eight, as we say. It's either them or Real Madrid to play bodo. Barcelona were one down to Copenhagen, but they won 41 USGB Atalanta 1 nil, Olympiacos 12 on IX Monaco. Uve drew nil. Paphos beat Savvy Prague 4 1. And Dragomir scored an absolute in the 17th minute. I don't know, Nick, if you had anything to pick out from, from those games into or otherwise.
- [42:23]
D
No, the Italian games were besides Napoli or mostly a bit flat, to be absolutely honest with you. It was a nice, nice free kick from DiMarco that finally put into her head in that game. But it didn't feel like it was such high tension. I just kind of wanted to come actually off the back of what Nick was saying about that, that bench clearing goal for Sporting. I think sometimes, and that's what I like about these, these big, big days as well. I think sometimes from the English media perspective, from the English fan perspective, we lose sight of how different the Champions League feels to clubs from other countries. I think there is a certain amount of Premier League presumptuousness at this point, rightly, because the money's there and they should be going through. And I think what was actually really fun to me last night was seeing how much of a difference it made to Sporting like as a club, their fans and their players to be in the top eight. I mean, yeah, on the one hand it's you miss a round of football miss in football. Just kind of easy to be snarky at and roll our eyes at because it is kind of funny. But I mean, wow, they're through to the latter stages of the Champions League because of that goal. Like it was a, it was a huge like moment for a club like that. And I think that's what in football is always the moments that drag me back in. Anyway.
- [43:34]
A
Oh, good stuff. All right, that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll look ahead to the Premier League weekend.
- [43:43]
G
Instacart helps you get what you need fast. Like when the watch party at your place finally makes it out of the group chat, suddenly you need snacks, drinks and all the things nobody planned for. With Instacart, you can get groceries and party essentials delivered. Just download the app, place your order and it shows up in as fast as 30 minutes. That way hosting feels easy and looks like you had a plan all along. Get the Instacart app today and get game day Deal. It's the new year and Instacart is here for whatever your new routine looks like. Maybe it's committing to the after work workout, or trying plant based recipes or just having fresh ingredients in the fridge. Because with Instacart you get time back. You can filter shopping by dietary preferences and never run out of what you need. So whatever your new year plan is, Instacart is here to make it just a little more possible. Download the Instacart app today. Actual dietary information may vary. Always check product packaging.
- [44:48]
A
Welcome to Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Before we do the Premier League preview, Nick, you've been writing about a potential boycott of the World cup, something that UEFA officials discussed. Actually, we've got a a special explainer video with you on how a boycott would work on the Football Weekly YouTube channel tomorrow. Go and subscribe and search Guardian football weekly on YouTube, please. You can see what we all look like. Maybe one view is enough, but you know we are there so. So tell us about that explainer then, Nick. How would it potentially work?
- [45:16]
B
All better off because it is not very precedented in in the modern era, but I guess it would broadly have to be led by a government deciding that that is what should happen and feeding it down to their FA who is feed it down for players and then make the decision. I think the chances of such action have receded, fortunately, since Donald Trump rode back, seemingly rode back. I mean, we don't know from one day to the next, do we, on the chances of invading Greenland by force. But I just think it was interesting that on the sidelines of a very different event, it was a birthday party for a Hungarian and FA about 10 days ago, about 20, 22, 25 heads of different FAS were there. And it was just very interesting that on the sidelines of that event, the conversation did come up. Meetings were had among various FA heads saying, what do we do? What do we do if this absolutely goes to hell? What would a coherent European response look like? How far would we have to go? And it's. It was, and I think continues to be a very serious conversation. A boycott, I think, is the most extreme thing that could happen. I think it would be, in my opinion, entirely contingent on what happened with Greenland. I think probably, unfortunately, the appalling situation we see with ICE operatives and that kind of thing, and the tragic events that we're all horrified by probably won't be any enough, but I think military aggression would be the red line there. And I think various European FA heads would share that view at the moment.
- [47:05]
A
Tell us about the futsal tournament you went to in Croatia as well.
- [47:09]
B
So connected to this. Greenland obviously don't have many opportunities to show a representation of themselves through team sport. They aren't in UEFA or FIFA. They aren't really allowed to play official matches against established countries, should we say. But in futsal they do get that opportunity. So I went along to watch them, their futsal team, which is for the uninitiated, it's kind of very intense, indoor five a side kind of football really. And they were playing in an 18 tournament in a little village in Istria called La Bin. Very nice place. And I went along to watch, just to meet their players and team and get a feel for how they were taking everything. And I think they didn't very sensibly come out with big statements about what they thought about Trump over politics and stuff like that. It's incredibly sensitive. But what I think they wanted to convey was that Greenland is not just the lump of ice, the chunk of ice that the current U.S. president spoke about. It's a place with human stories and dreams and ambitions and people who are very, very talented at what they do. So I enjoyed them playing two games, including a very hard fought defeat against Romania and then winning their next one. And it was, yeah, fantastic group of people. They really hope for representation in UEFA, FIFA or concacafa at some point soon I think things are Working in the background about that but obviously very tough situation they've been in. I think it meant a lot to them to be able to travel travel to to mainland Europe, to Croatia and show this side of themselves even in a fairly obscure footstep tournament that not many people have heard of until now.
- [48:58]
A
Yeah and look good that you went good that the Guardian can do those sort of things. Premier League weekend then Nikki. Arsenal are bottling it aren't they? They go to Elland Road on.
- [49:10]
C
On.
- [49:11]
A
On Saturday and that is a tricky game game to off the back of the defeat to Manchester United.
- [49:17]
D
Yeah Leeds when he lost like one since November. Leeds. Leeds don't lose a lot of games. They obviously the one game they did lose I think in. In all that time is against Newcastle which was pretty a pretty see soaring game. It was 4:3 and they drew with United recently. They. They are not pushovers by any stretch and they're also not on this relentless two a week schedule that Arsenal have been on. Obviously as you mentioned earlier in the show 11 changes in midweek. Be interesting to see if any of those players stick. It is really N. Kai Havertz back and looking like himself. But it is feeling a little bit wobbly at the moment. We've gone past the point where you can ignore it and brush it off. And I think that what's most troubling to me is actually just how which perhaps was a chance to get past this a bit midweek didn't happen. How easily we're conceding goals at the moment. Arsenal. I think the defense suddenly doesn't look as safe and I did see something about. I think it's like the last five shots on target have all gone in which is one of those stats that feels awful but also can't go on forever. The last five shots on targets against Arsenal. But yeah it feels fraught for Arsenal definitely.
- [50:20]
C
Can I very quickly put a question to the floor which is why are Arsenal so panicky and stressed because still top of the League incredible in the Champions League. You said the defense.
- [50:32]
D
It's been a really long time.
- [50:33]
C
Is it just that since we won. I was absolutely baffled that they booed the team off after losing like their first game at home in the League all year. Like what has happened happening. Settle down. You're four points clear at the top of the League.
- [50:45]
D
I actually. I actually know as I know lots of us on seasoning colders but someone whose picture was used. You can barely see them in it but it was used on an athletic article about Arsenal Fans Boeing and he was so angry because he was like I wasn't moving. It wasn't.
- [51:00]
A
That's great. I can see it. I can totally see it the last two seasons until it's done and done. Of course they'll panic. It's just funny that even the team that are four points clear that won every game in the Champions League, they're panicking. Like, what's the rest of us doing?
- [51:14]
C
Imagine if you were spurs fans. Good Lord.
- [51:16]
A
Well, we'll get to them. How you are. So am I last. They play man City. We alluded to that. Three, four, three. But it is the start of a, a really tough fixture. You know, for Thomas Frank to come out of these four games with much and his job seems. It does seem unlikely.
- [51:30]
B
Yeah, I guess we'll, we'll see how. What that. How much grace this Champions League run of victories against under par Bundesliga size has done for him. It's going to be tough. I think they tend to give City, historically, I think a pretty good game at home and I think that will weigh in. I think the crowd will be up. I think the atmosphere in there will be good. I think they'll be behind the team now. Maybe the three at the back will help against City side. That will dominate possession, of course, and spurs will inevitably have. Have to look for the counter and set pieces. But I think this will be quite a tight game. It's a big chance for City. It's one they need to win really. But I think it'll be closer maybe than some people might predict.
- [52:21]
C
Well, I've reached the point of the cycle where I don't think this is going to get better and I start sort of disengaging emotionally a little bit. But if we're trying to look for potential, trying to talk ourselves into there being a chance of good things happening in general. I think the games where spurs have looked competent under Thomas Frank have tended to be the ones where there's no expectation on them to play football. Like they really struggle against teams where it's on them to have the ball and make the football happen. They're not good at that. But in games where you can kind of, yeah, do set pieces, long balls, counterattacks, there have been some semi competent performances in those types of games. Games and they have a couple of games that on paper look horrendous but at least no one's expecting them to, to play football and maybe just, yeah, set pieces, counter attacks and maybe that suits what they are able to do right now. Thomas Frank was widely Ridiculed for saying they weren't that bad against Burnley. But there were some positives in the first half against the statistically the worst team in the league. And they were by all accounts good against Frankfurt. So I'm not really convincing anyone one least of all myself of this. I just think it's all bad right now.
- [53:32]
A
Yeah but you're right man. City absolutely do need to win to keep the pressure on Arsenal. Depending of course on what Arsenal do at Ellen Road, Liverpool, Newcastle, Anfield. And there is pressure Nikki Onslot like there is a lot of pressure on him now. And Newcastle we've mentioned they do have injury problems but they are. You know it's not a simple game for Liverpool is.
- [53:51]
D
No I feel like you could really see the how much slot was just relieved to be getting the midweek off from it and to be in that different environment and obviously the team performing so well in sure a very winnable game against Karabag. But I think it felt like there was a degree of relief in just everyone's demeanour in the way that went against Karabag. This is a very tough return to the Premier League and again we just saw Newcastle likewise have their own shift in energy in midweek and the way they'll come out of that PSG game feeling like well now we've got Harvey Barnes and Anthony Gordon playing like that and back and available. We know we can hurt anybody and. And I think that this is definitely not a straightforward game for either team. But I suppose with the pressure being very much on Arnold Slot's shoulders in particular.
- [54:38]
A
Elsewhere Wolves play Bournemouth, Brighton Everton, Chelsea, West Ham West Ham have got Adama Traore in feels very West Ham doesn't it? Player Nuno knows very well he played really well for him at Wolves. Lucas Pekatar looks like he's off to Flamengo for 35 million. On Chelsea, Raheem Sterling has left them by mutual consent. He had 18 months remaining. A £325,000 a week deal. He's 31. Will be fascinating to see where he ends up next. What a staggering amount of money for not doing anything. I know it's not his fault that he wasn't doing anything but we'd all take it. Villa, Brentford. Tammy Abraham signed for 18.2 million on a four and a half year deal. And they've also agreed to re sign Douglas Luiz on loan. So you know they're making moves in January like they did last year.
- [55:22]
C
Yes Lars really really intrigued by United Fulham this weekend. I have to say say, I just think it's worth saying, because we've had this. Man United are back moments with these two incredible results, masterminded by Michael Carrick, who is very much at the wheel and looking very likely to stay there. To be honest, I think this seems to be a thing that might be happening. Of course, this will be completely different. Like this. This is similarly to Tottenham. This is a game where they can't set up to counter and punish the opponent. They're at home against Fulham. They need to play their own game. Is that something they know how to do? I think that's absolutely fantastic. Fascinating.
- [55:57]
A
Yeah. Forest palace in the Europa Conference. Europa League, angsty match. Sunderland, Burnley. We'll cover them all on Monday, but that will do for today. We managed to get through all the games, so we should feel very proud of ourselves. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Nick.
- [56:11]
B
Thank you.
- [56:12]
A
Cheers, Niki.
- [56:13]
D
Thanks.
- [56:13]
A
Cheers, Lars.
- [56:14]
C
Thank you, Max.
- [56:15]
A
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Phil Maynard. Back on Monday. This is the Guardian.
- [56:33]
F
In a world where January is supposed to be boring, one staple of the holidays refuses to end. The great deals at Verizon, the joy just keeps on coming. Right now, now you can save on four new phones and four lines. Critics agree it's the deal that keeps on giving. Come into Verizon and save on four new phones and four lines on unlimited welcome. Additional terms apply@seeverizon.com for details.