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Football Weekly
Chaos and controversy: Bayern Munich v Real Madrid was an instant classic: Football Weekly Extra
00:56:34
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Archie Rhind-Tutt and Jonathan Liew to discuss Wednesday’s Champions League action
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- [00:00]
A
This is the Guardian. We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup.
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B
I'm gonna ask that man for directions.
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A
Hi there. We're trying to get to the stadium.
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C
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road.
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A
Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out. How is their signal out here?
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C
T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together, so the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn.
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A
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
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C
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- [01:09]
D
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Like listen@schwab.com WashingtonWyse.
- [01:38]
B
Hello and welcome to Guardian Football weekly. There were two football matches in the Champions League last night. One was absolutely brilliant at the Allianz. Bayern Munich 4, Real Madrid 3, 6, 4 in aggregate in the end for the Germans, they went into the game ahead, stayed ahead for 30 seconds before real Madrid leveled it up. Arda Guler's lovely finish. After Manuel Neuer's mistake, Bayern came back. Guler put Madrid up again. Kane for two, two, four minutes later. Then in the second half it slowed down a bit. Camavinga getting a soft second yellow. Luis Diaz scoring. Michael Alise wrapping it all up beautifully. Bayern deserved it. Real Madrid are blaming it all on the ref for a change. But thank you to everyone involved. 10 out of 10, a Tour de force. Meanwhile at the Emirates. Arsenal did enough, just enough. Arteta called for fire. There wasn't even a spark. But they are in the semi finals of the Champions League, the only Premier League side to be there. And they defended pretty well. They do defend pretty well. The rest of it isn't pretty. You don't have to watch it. I mean, we have to watch it. Cue existential questions about the point of it all. We'll look ahead to the title decider at the Etihad. How will Arsenal approach that one? Defensively, you'd imagine. There's the biggest Merseyside derby for a while, Roberto de Zerbi's inevitable defeat at the hands of Brighton, and some big live show news for the pod. All that, plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning. Welcome.
- [02:48]
E
Hello.
- [02:49]
F
Hello.
- [02:49]
B
Johnny Liu.
- [02:50]
A
Hi, Max.
- [02:51]
B
Good morning, Archie. Rin Tutt.
- [02:52]
F
Hey, Max.
- [02:54]
B
We begin at the Allianz Bayern for Real Madrid. Three and one of those games. I don't. I really don't really know how to analyze because it was so thrilling. Archie. My notes are in chronological order, but go where you want. What a brilliant game of football.
- [03:09]
F
From the moment that Manuel Neuer misplaced that pass, it was almost as if. It's weird because sometimes after such a great first leg, it can take a while to get going in a second leg. And yet that one, it felt like the film that we were watching a week ago just continued exactly where it left off, because just the chaos that we saw from that. And to be honest, because who was expecting Manuel Neuer to make that kind of mistake, even if he's actually done that kind of thing a couple of times this season for Bayern already, it sparked the game into what I can only describe really as a frenzy. And we get to enjoy the fruits of that ferocious tempo that the game was played at. And look, Bayern were the ones who. Who were driving that tempo, but I think because they were driving that tempo, Real Madrid were only too happy to pick up off the scraps of it. And it just made for an exhilarating watch to see how Mbappe was able to get in behind Kylian. Mbappe is a player you want to see open up in terms of. On his speed, and when he's given that amount of space, then it is fun. But yeah, I'm also kind of at a loss as to where to really start to pick apart that first half, whether it's Andrei Lunin's goalkeeping as well for the first buying goal at the corner.
- [04:43]
B
Weird, isn't it? He's like running back, isn't it? Like you're like, where were you?
- [04:47]
F
Because you shouldn't be.
- [04:48]
B
I've never seen a keeper sort of be running. It's almost like he's making a late far post. Run or something.
- [04:54]
F
Yeah, it's bizarre, but. And you realize that actually it's Trent, Alexander Arnold who's blocking him off, and the way that Pavlovich just literally has to stick his head out to score it. You want to see these players play at that kind of tempo that. That is when football is at its most fun. I think ultimately the game really disappointingly slowed down at halftime, albeit not surprisingly, given how intense everything was. And the moment that decides it is the red card, albeit I think it is a red card because, like, Real Madrid had done plenty of those microaggressions during the game and just hadn't been caught. And this time they were. And I think the only thing that's happened here, really, is that Real Madrid were treated like a normal team in terms of. That's a yellow card offense for everyone else. It's just they look a bit surprised that they've been done for it.
- [05:51]
B
They're certainly taking it like anyone else would take it. Barry, what. What did you make of this game, Barry?
- [05:58]
E
I loved it. I mean, it was fantastic. Both legs of the tie were brilliant last night with slapstick goalkeeping. With brilliant goalkeeping. Goals of the very highest quality. Near misses, red cards, see saw and scoreline postmatch. Tears and recriminations. And then in the other game, crickets, Tumbleweed. And I was actually wondering, I think, will. Will Max have this? Top of the running order. Will it be Arsenal? I'll have to sing it. It has to be this. And I. I noticed that Champions League match of the day also had this game top. Gave it top billing despite the presence of a Premier League side playing in the other game. But it was. It was just wonderful. I mean, some of the goals are the G's finish from.
- [06:56]
B
Yeah, the.
- [06:56]
E
The Neuer mistake was the way he curled that ball into the top corner from whatever, 35, 40 yards. Brilliant. His free kick was brilliant. There seems to be a debate over whether Neuer should have done better. I. I don't think there was much more he could do. The Mbappe goal that involved Bellingham, Vinnie Jr. And playing the cross into Mbappe like the acceleration he. To take himself past. I think it was up in Meccano. Unbelievable. It was like a video game cheat code. Luis Diaz goal. The Elise goal. I mean, even the Harry Kane goal was probably the most meh of the lot. Even that was a brilliant finish. It was just sensational. And I loved every minute. I was slightly sad it just didn't go to extra time because I'd have loved another half Hour of that.
- [07:50]
B
Yeah. And it would be a crime against football to have led with the other game. I think we will, we will get to that.
- [07:56]
A
Does Arsenal make it into part two
- [08:01]
B
for the first time ever? We have a part four, like a bonus track at the end. And I think at the end of it, Johnny, like Bayern deserve to go through, don't they? And it does set up the game that we really want to see, which is this Bayern against that psg.
- [08:14]
A
Yeah, I think over the two legs they deserved it. I think it showed. I mean, we'll contrast this with the Arsenal game later. It showed what happens when two teams have this real restless urgency. This is not a slice on Arsenal because it takes two to tango. Right. You need two teams to make a game, but this is what happens when you have incredible attacking players, given the license and the freedom and importantly the situation, the game situation, to roam and just do incredible things. One thing we haven't mentioned yet is that there was a cross by Trent Alexander Arnold for Mbappe, which was unbelievable. Just this clips a skimming cross that just arced perfectly for Mbappe, who could well have scored. But yeah, I think Bayern have had the more complete season so far, so they deserve it on that basis and I think they deserve it over the two legs and I guess for producing the decisive moments. I think when it gets to sort of the 80th minute and you still think Madrid have probably, you know, 10 man Madrid away from home, they might end up just grinding this out, even doing it on penalties, but being able to produce that moment of quality with, you know, Musiala laying it off at Diaz and then Alise, who, you know, again, we haven't, you know, we haven't mentioned that much who was unbelievable. So much of what Bayern did went through him. They are a great team to watch companies buying like just a brilliant team, you know, domestically and in Europe for all that. I still think Paris will absolutely take them to the cleaners.
- [09:47]
B
Wow.
- [09:47]
A
Because I don't know, I just, I think Paris are so much smarter than Madrid were here. They're so much more together and on it. And you know, what we saw from them at Anfield, the discipline, just all the parts, working together, being able to do every part of the game well, I think Bayern are one of those teams that they're going to concede goals and Paris are just perfectly primed to hit them in those areas where they're slightly fragile.
- [10:18]
F
Archie, Bayern's best half of the season came away at PSG when they won 21 earlier in the Champions League in the second half of that, they had. Luis Diaz had been sent off. So it made it a very difficult game to. To analyze. And I do think that Johnny's writing that PSG can. Can defend better and are willing to suffer more as a unit than Real Madrid are. The idea of it, of a unit is not really a thing at Real Madrid, but I think it's also just worth highlighting how. How significant a moment this was for Bayern, because when they win most of the times it's not that close and they don't get to do it in. In the 90th minute. And the fact that it was at home as well. There are people who, Who've been going to the Allianza arena for longer than I have who are saying that this was probably one of the best nights there in terms of atmosphere. But also Michael Alise for. For all the goals and assists that he's racked up so far, this is his best moment in terms of being able to clinch a game in that style that he did. He's had some near misses in. In games where bind have gone out of the cup last season, for example, where he's come very close to executing, but everything just aligned for him in. In that moment. And the fact that this is Bayern's only Bayern's second appearance in the Champions League semi finals in the last six years is something which speaks for Vincent Kompany as well. This is legitimacy for him. He would have faced awkward questions had they gone out here. And I think given how close this game was and how we could easily be here saying Real Madrid did their thing again, and the fact that they've been able to go against that juju is. It speaks to what company's done. But I don't quite foresee what Johnny sees in terms of them being torn apart. But I think that it's going to be a cracking game.
- [12:23]
B
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it is. It's on those midfield. If the PSG midfield totally clicks, you know, then they are. They're better than anything, I think. I mean, you mentioned that at least a strike just. I mean, it's the same with Ardagulas. The first. When you see it curling, it's just they're both so perfect in slow motion. The camera angle, everything is perfect.
- [12:43]
E
That was in added time, I thought, you know, Kane plays in the ball, you would think, oh, he'll go for the corner just to run down the clock. Oh, does he heck no. Straight towards goal. And you're right, Curls it past.
- [12:58]
F
Did you see what Kane was saying?
- [13:01]
E
No.
- [13:01]
F
Kane, when he gives him the ball is going, okay, Michael, calm down now, calm down. And that's the thing about Elise is that he just goes off onto his own rainbow road and goes, well, I'm actually gonna go do this. I don't know if you've seen what he does before games when he comes out to warm up where he just, he gets the ball and he hoofs it about a mile into the air. And there have been times this season like there was once where it landed right next to company in the interview. And Elise kind of goes over sheepishly and goes, sorry, but it's kind of for me just symbolic of what goes through Michael Elise's mind. The average person cannot understand it, but don't want to understand it. Just want to enjoy what comes out of it.
- [13:42]
B
Imagine if John Barnes, you know, had done that, you know, when he tried to. When he should have taken it into the Corner in, in 89. We should talk about Harry Kane. Barry scored 50 in all competitions this season joining an illustrious club including Messi Ronaldo, Gert Muller, Dixie dean, Pongo Waring 15, all comps for Villa in 1931. Good old Pongo. That was just an excuse to say Pongo wearing really Barry. But you know he scored and it was a brilliant first touch and a brilliant finish and in a big game and you know, if he keeps doing this, you might have to say he's turning up in these clutch moments.
- [14:22]
E
Look, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Harry Kane is a terrific player. But there have been occasions where he has played in, in finals. He shouldn't have with spurs because he was on one leg. But is there. You could argue that a one legged Harry Kane is better than most two legged strikers. But as it happened it turned out he wasn't on those occasions. He has, I'm not going to say let England down in, in semifinals and finals but he, he hasn't delivered in the manner you might expect. But he's a great player, He's a smashing fella. He's made the point. I wasn't aware of this in his post match interview that Byron can wrap up the league on Saturday. Is that the case, Archie?
- [15:13]
F
Sunday it's on at the same time as Man City Arsenal which is great.
- [15:20]
E
They have a cop semi final looming and then they have this semi final. So the jibes about Harry's empty trophy cabinet will be extremely redundant. Probably or could be by the end of this season. He's. He's a brilliant player. And I, I, I still remember like his first season as a prolific goal scorer for Spurs. Everyone making the case, they might. He might just be a one season wonder. He really hasn't been, has he? 50 goals in a season is extraordinary. It is extraordinary.
- [15:52]
B
Yeah. Amazing. He does have a trophy in the cabinet. It's worth pointing out.
- [15:55]
E
I am aware of that.
- [15:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we're on to the red card. Johnny. It felt to me like one of those the ref gives a yellow and then goes, oh, I've already booked this guy, so I've got to send him off. I don't obviously know. But then Ardagul is sent off after the game. Arbolo was sent off as well. Carvajal shouting at the ref, it's your fault. It's your fucking fault. Jude Bellingham after the game, walking through the mixed zone saying, it's a joke. It's impossible for it to be a yellow. 2000, two yellows. Rudiger saying, you've seen it, haven't you? Really? It's better that I don't speak. Have you ever seen something like this? Ugh. Is the transcription, Ugh. Jack says, does the fact that I really love watching Real Madrid players throw a tantrum make me a bad person? I suppose you would be annoyed because it's soft, but I'm, but I don't know, I mean, I, I can see why he got a yellow, Johnny.
- [16:45]
A
Yeah, it's one of those that referees so rarely give as a second yellow. It's always given as a first yellow or almost always given as a first yellow. But it's so rarely given as a second because of, and especially in a game of this consequen against what you have to say is a club of this consequence. But then I think he forgets, the referee just forgets, isn't he that? And he think, oh, no, I've got to send him off now. I've got to send him off for this. And to be fair, he does, he doesn't hesitate. And it's pretty silly from Camavinga, who had a difficult second half and has had a very difficult season. You know, a lot of, you know, Madrid's accounts saying that, you know, this is the night when he may well have played himself out of, out of Madrid. You know, Tchouameni was suspended, he didn't even get a start. And this obviously won't have helped his case with, with Madrid. I think this, there is a certain jumper when there was this kind of refereeing controversy last season, and Valverde had to come out and apologize to Madrid fans for not berating the referee enough. So, you know, he initially, he came out and said, you know, well, you know, these things can go either way. And such was the opprobrium and the dismay from Madrid fans that he hadn't lent into the conspiracy theory industrial complex, that he then had to come out and revise his statement, say, yes, of course, any previous statements I may have made were completely coincidental. We are the subject of decisions that are totally unacceptable against us. And there's kind of Rudiger upsetting the ice cart in the Copa del Rey final. There was an expectation, I think, for Madrid players that. That they will publicly perform this kind of. This kind of wounded swan dance after. After a big defeat. I don't think it's very healthy for them, actually, as a club. I think that the psyche of that club is all wrong at the moment. The balance of power, as Alonso found out, is totally weighted in favor of the players. There are reports that he called this club unmanageable or this group of players unmanageable shortly before he left. So there are a lot of problems to sort out there. I still think they haven't fixed the puzzle of how you get the best out of Mbappe and Vinicius and Bellingham and the incredible pressure that puts on the players behind them. So, yeah, Arpelo will probably pay for this with his job. At the end of the season, they will rage and they will fume and they'll end the season with no trophies and there'll be another summer of refresh and probably a big tranche of fresh galacticos.
- [19:20]
F
You talk about the quote from Alonso about them being unmanageable, or the alleged quote. And one moment sticks out in my mind last night is when Real Madrid went 3, 2, up, and the camera pans to Arboloa and he's trying to get a message out, and he just can't get it out there to the players because they're not listening. And you just see him kind of exasperated, turning away as if he's trying to tell the toddlers to tidy up their room. But no, we're just doing what we want. Like, we don't. We don't care what. What you have to say.
- [19:52]
B
But it's so childish, right? It's so childish. And it's like. And it will cost them. Like, I don't know at what point, and I know Real Madrid have won a lot of stuff, but for these players right now, will Ever go. Actually, we might have. We perhaps should have listened to a coach to have some tactics.
- [20:10]
F
It's the first time in 16 years that they will have back to back trophyless seasons. I wonder if that. That can help hammer it in. But I do think as well, what we've seen from Real Madrid is that if you take out the older heads who have the ability to control the tempo of the game a bit more in Kroosa Modric, then this is what you're left with. Those are the positions that I think they're really missing because as much as they did have their chances in both legs of this tie, it didn't feel like they could really wrestle back control of the game at their own whim, which is a skill you would expect Real Madrid to have. And I think that ultimately that's where it's costing them. And I'm intrigued to see what the next steps are in how they change that squad and who takes charge of it.
- [21:07]
B
Yeah, which actually does because it's, you know, that midfield Johnny that Real Madrid haven't been able to fix. And I think it's interesting when you, you think PSG will like quite easily beat Bayern, if I've understood it correctly. Because I do think that that buyer midfield, I do think that when you put that, you know, Kimmich and Pavovich and Lima coming into there against that PSG midfield, I think is. I think that's really. I just think that's fascinating.
- [21:34]
E
It is.
- [21:35]
A
And I think Baynes midfield is, I don't think, as. As well built for controlling a big semi final.
- [21:43]
B
That's fair.
- [21:44]
A
As, you know, Vitinia and Neves and whatever. I just think PSG is so good at controlling the tempo and they almost sort of lull you into like, there'll be a couple of minutes of pot and then suddenly, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's gone to Kvaratskalia, it's gone to Dembele and they've somehow done a goal. The ability to move through the gears and to know when to move through the gears and to be able to sense those moments, which is obviously something that comes with experience of big games and winning the Champions League and knowing when those moments arrive. I just think I'd be fascinated to see what companies Bayern are doing next season or the season after. It's the same with flicks. Barcelona, I think they just lack a bit of. They lack that little bit of maturity that, that gets you over the line. Hey, I'm really happy to be proved wrong. I might be Just totally. I've been wrong about plenty in the past. I think we're going to be coming to our Premier League pre season predictions, I'm sure at some point in the next few weeks. So I've got plenty rock, but that's, that's how I see it. I just think PSG are a little
- [22:45]
B
bit smarter and actually Barry, we should. Johnny mentioned Vincent Co. Like obviously we wouldn't have said you failed upwards. From Burnley to Bayern Munich. I can't I ever remember saying that myself but a lot of people did see that and go how the hell has he managed to swing getting the buying job? And he is proving that he's been a good appointment.
- [23:09]
E
Yeah, he's been an excellent appointment. It would be fair to say that the players he has at his disposal at Bayern Munich are a lot better than the ones he had at Burnley. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. But Ashley, he has his furious with you but you know he has been superb. The players clearly like and respect him. You know he's. He's a real nice guy, quite calm. But there's that video circulating or in the past of him on the Burnley training ground. I can't remember what player it was. Was it Joey Goodmanson? Maybe, but absolutely tearing a strip off him for just moaning and complaining about everything on the in the training session. So he has a temper. He's. He's an authoritative figure and he's done a great job. Interestingly, I just out of curiosity, I had a look to see how the bookies have priced up the tournament now and Bayern are the favorites. Arsenal are second favorites then psg, you could throw a blanket over them. And the bookies are giving Atletico Madrid no chance really. They're rank outsiders to win the tournament.
- [24:24]
F
I just want to add with Kompany, Bayern Munich is not an easy club to be head coach at and Kompany has done well to quell a ravenous media scene there in the way that he is able to maintain the same image behind the scenes of being calm and making sure that they don't get too high and they don't get too low as well as in front of the media. And I do think it's interesting that you mentioned Burnley because he actually brings it up a lot in his answers even now in terms of how much he learned through that experience and I think even to Nick Ames question in the press conference last night he was asked what this emotion compares to and he brings up the feeling of beating Blackburn twice with Burnley, which seems a bit odd, but I do think that he's constantly trying to say that he did learn a lot from that experience, even if it didn't work out very well for him.
- [25:31]
A
And it's like Jake Humphrey bringing up his GCSes.
- [25:37]
F
I do think that there's something. I do think that what happened when he moved from Burnley to Bayern is that he kind of got his. He got his playing career cancelled by everyone. It just kind of got ignored. And yet that is the thing which I think is carrying him the furthest with these Bayern players is his knowledge and temperament of knowing how to navigate situations as a top player. And that's how he can really connect with all of these players. And you see reverence is maybe a bit too strong a word, but you do see the respect that they all have for him. And he seems sometimes the way that he interacts with the players seems less like a manager or we sometimes talk about them as father figures. He seems more just like that big brother to them who's able to sometimes put an arm around them and sometimes say, hey, come on, you can do better than this.
- [26:29]
A
Do you like their fifth choice?
- [26:30]
F
He was. Which makes this whole thing even more bizarre.
- [26:35]
A
They wanted rangnick, they wanted 10 hag.
- [26:38]
F
I think there was Glasner, I think at one point as well, Alonso. At the time he was seen as a very left field pick and yeah, he has provided all the answers.
- [26:51]
B
I dream of being fifth choice for a number of TV shows. But you know. Anyway, that'll do for part one. Part two we'll discuss Arsenal Nil. Sporting Nil
- [27:04]
D
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day, but what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise today we'll attempt a feat
- [27:27]
G
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- [28:05]
B
To part two of the Guardian Football Weekly Big News Barry on the 16th of July, we have our first ever live show in New York City. Following in the footsteps of Paul McCartney, Lou Reed and Lady Gaga, we take the Stage at the world famous Bowery Ballroom in nyc. Concrete jungles where dreams are made. Anyway, three days before the World Cup, Finally. So it's me and you. Not sure who else, but we'll have a panel, don't you worry. And you can get tickets. Presumably Zoran Mamdani will be there because he's a big fan. Yeah. Who can be on the panel? Theguardian.com Football Weekly Live, if you would like to come. Let's sell out. New York City.
- [28:48]
E
New York.
- [28:50]
B
Yeah, of course. And I. I think that's how they'll like us to begin. Putting on cod New York accents, going, you're talking on me. You're talking on me. Anyway, this is the first I've heard
- [29:01]
E
of this show, man. Yeah, well, it would have been nice to be consulted. I would like to say that I am available and I'm already very excited.
- [29:10]
B
Yeah, we are looking forward to it. I mean, I didn't know until I looked at the script and it had a link and I was like, oh, okay. And I checked the link and it seems to be working. So there you go. Come along. It'll be nice to see you New Yorkers. We've got to stop this.
- [29:24]
F
You're doing a lot to put off talking about Arsenal, okay?
- [29:28]
B
I am. Well, do you know what, Archer? You mentioned in part one, suffering as a unit. And boy, did we all suffer. Should we focus on the part? I mean, the positives are right. They are through to the semi finals of the Champions League. They're still top of the Premier League. They're through to the semi final of the Champions League. They defended well. They are good without the ball. Eight clean sheets in the Champions League.
- [29:46]
E
Well, well, if. If I may, Max.
- [29:48]
B
Please, Barry.
- [29:49]
E
They're such a strange team. Like, they're league. They're in the semi finals of the Champion League. But all we and others seem to spend our time talking about with no little justification is how terrible they are. And it's just mad. Watching them is an ordeal for everyone, especially their own fans. But again, top of the League in the semi finals of the Champions League. And I just can't get my head around Arsenal at all. I hate watching them. They don't entertain me in the slightest. And if you say that out loud, you get pelters. But that. That is my opinion. I. If I have to sit down and watch an Arsenal game, I don't do with anything approaching relish. And I cannot remember the last time an Arsenal performance got me so out of my seat or to the anywhere near the edge of my seat.
- [30:46]
B
I was thinking for the Arsenal fans, I mean, it feels. It's just so much anxiety that it is really waiting for a loved one to come out of surgery. And the only good bit is at the end when the doctor says it was a success and you can go, oh, thank God for that. But Barney wrote it's. It can feel like trying to win by default, to win by drowning slightly more slowly than the other guy. No one has ever advanced on so many fronts playing quite like this. What are your thoughts, Johnny?
- [31:13]
A
I think it's all very fair, to be honest. I think there's a. There's an assumption that Sporting were just there for, you know, they were, they were patse.
- [31:20]
B
They.
- [31:20]
A
They were just there to be put away. Obviously, if Arsenal had had scored an early goal and, and made that tie safe early on and, and maybe scored three or four, that it would have changed not just the, you know, the feeling around it, but the narrative over the next few days going into that City game. But Sporting, as we saw, are not a bad side. It's. It's not. Plenty of teams have tried to shut them down in the Champions League this season and, and not many have succeeded. And this is, this is Arsenal's, I guess their, their underrated strength, right, is they are able to shut down teams, they are able to extinguish teams to the point where your only real option against them is to low block and try and frustrate them. And we're talking about earlier, about how styles make fights. This was ultimately a very asymmetric tie, which was always going to end up like this. I fear Arsenal, Atletico might be the same, although Atletico obviously have a lot more to them going forward. There are two separate issues here. Everyone, everyone talks about, you know, the angst and the suffering and the, you know, the fans tearing their hair out and the narrative creeping in, you know, the narratives creeping in about how they're terrible leaders and they're playing terrible football. You know, that is almost separate to what is clearly going on in that team, which is. There is such a lack of creative spark. There is like long balls to Gyokorez, who is not really a target man, which I think betrays a lack of ideas. And there are no star players that are coming forward. You know, title winning teams have star players who stand up and say, I'm just going to bang one in from 20 yards now. I'm going to do something extraordinary. This is a team that basically doesn't have. That doesn't have those sort of players or those players aren't coming forward right now and almost have to grind out games they have to play almost this negative. What is it? Barney called it Starmerball because it's early this season at Liverpool and he's dead right. It is Starmerpool at the moment. It is the only real alternative available to them. And Arteta is basically working with. With what he has a knackered squad, by the way. They look utterly like they physically shagged out and. And I think that's having a big impact on it. But they're top of the league and. And they're in the Champions League semifinal. I'd have them as favorites just because I think Atletico are probably the weakest of the four teams left and. And they still have the potential to make everyone look really, really stupid. And I think that that should be what. What fires them up.
- [33:50]
F
I'd back Atletico over Arsenal right now, and particularly because of the brand of chaos that Atletico can initiate and embrace is something that I think Arsenal would. Would not face with any real relish. I'd also just add I've been monitoring Arsenal's corner success rate of late.
- [34:15]
B
God, you're really living, Archie, aren't you?
- [34:17]
F
I. Right, well, I tell you what, Max, this is what, having to go to Southampton for two nights and realizing I've probably got the time to look this up. Let's have a look. They'd scored 21 goals from corners in their first 37 games this season. In the last 17 games, they've scored two from corners and they were both in the same game against Chelsea. So they have really lost that weapon. And that's two goals of their last 28 have been from corners compared to 21 of 80. So I think that them losing their mojo from corners as well, I think has affected them because it's putting that extra reliance on their open play performance. And they can't deal with that right now because they don't have Odegaard and Saka in top form. In fact, I mean, where is Bukayo Saka? We don't know what the injury status is on him. Is that going to be a World cup issue? Question mark. Who knows?
- [35:21]
B
I suppose the question is because Sporting didn't score against the Barry, but Sporting had chances in this game.
- [35:26]
E
Sporting should have had a penalty, by the way. It was another one of those not enough fouls where Mosquero pushed Maxi Rahu in the back at the far post as he was trying to get to a cross. That should have been a penalty. And I don't know why it wasn't given.
- [35:43]
B
Yeah, I said the only, my only thought about that one was the ball was quite a long way away. I know it doesn't matter, but in sort of that, that seems to matter. But my question is Sporting had some chances, right? So I agree with Johnny that Sporting actually a really good team and I don't know how big a step up athlete is. I think it is a step up, but I don't think it might. I don't think there's a chasm between Athletic and Sporting. But like if you keep playing like this, you will eventually come up against a team that will create chances, however good you are defensively. Right. And that is that in the, in purely in the Champions League. That will be Arsenal's problem, I think.
- [36:18]
E
Well, I suspect it will be a problem for them closer to home on Sunday afternoon and we'll see how that goes. But look, there's no doubt in my mind that Arsenal are good enough to win the Champions League. But we haven't seen anywhere near the best of them in at least five matches and I think they've only won one of those five. And as Johnny points out, they are clearly knackered. I think Declan Rice had to climb out of his sick bed to play last night, so we'll see how kind of effect that has on him at the weekend. But he looked mightily not happy after the game, just relieved, just glad it was over, probably like everyone else who was watching.
- [37:04]
B
Here's an email from Basil, who says much commentary on the excellent POD in recent weeks about how much people are reveling in Arsenal's late season claps. Based on anecdotal evidence, this sentiment is so widespread that it has to be considered a genuine cultural phenomenon. I don't know why I don't like Arsenal and I want whichever team they're playing to beat them. It goes back decades, but particularly now, it seems so ubiquitous. I'm curious why a seemingly large percentage of other football fans are willing them to fail. Can I suggest a podcast episode dedicating to addressing the question and what the phenomenon tells us about the contemporary pregame? Could you do that now, Johnny?
- [37:39]
A
Yeah, I mean, Arsenal are trollable. Arsenal are extremely trollable. That's always been their Achilles heel. There are so many people that are really emotionally invested in them tripping up. You actually see it like the last kind of few days, last week or so, as E got asked before the game, you know, what do you think about people who don't think Arsenal's style is Great. Who think that they're not very good. Arteta. I think slightly pointed answer last night about how the coverage that they've been getting is. You would expect them to be a team in the bottom three. That is beginning to creep through the windows. All of that external noise, you can get a rise out of Arsenal. You know, this is probably going to get clipped up and put on a vertical video site somewhere because Arsenal fans are just, they will reliably rage at anything. You'll get like 3,000 comments going like, who is this journo? Who is this Arsenal hating journo? I mean, you see the Arsenal scarf in the background. That's my wife's Arsenal scarf. Live around the corner from the, from the Emirates. So, you know, you can't tell me anything. You can't tell me anything about Arsenal. I don't, I don't know that there is a, There is a really seething pot of.
- [38:46]
B
That's the.
- [38:46]
A
Is that, is that.
- [38:47]
B
Is it significantly more for them than, you know, any team is trollable. Right.
- [38:52]
E
A lot of Arsenal fans seem to care what other people who don't support Arsenal think of Arsenal far more than say, I care about what anyone thinks about Sunderland or you care about what anyone thinks of Cambridge or Spurs. And I don't understand why they care what I think or Johnny thinks or Archie thinks about Arsenal. You know, why would you.
- [39:19]
A
Arsenal, Liverpool, I think are the two fan bases that really coagulated at a time when social media online, when, at a time when social media was becoming huge, was becoming almost the dominant way of consuming the game. It was Liverpool, a lot of that, the energy that went into getting out Hicks and Gillette and Arsenal under the, under the late venge years that coincided with the rise of, of the Internet and social media. And I think that that created an incredibly online, incredibly plugged in fan base and also a target. A target for. For other, other fan bases to, to attack and troll.
- [39:53]
B
Sure. But there's always a danger that you know, because although you may live next to the Emirates, I don't, you know, there's always a danger that four people on a zoom call commenting on this are reacting so much to social media and it, although social media is now part of real life, you almost can't separate them, I guess. But like you've always got to be aware that there might be lots of Arsenal going to the game who don't sit on Instagram all day calling you a bell whiff or a snowflake. Sorry, you wanted to, you wanted to
- [40:25]
F
come in I mean, that is one thing about comments is I discovered insults that I didn't know were insults.
- [40:31]
B
I've had them all.
- [40:32]
F
I think there's also something quite simple at play here, which is I think that you don't want your mates teams to win because you know that they'll go on about it. And I think that most people don't know as many City fans as they know Arsenal fans. I think that that can have a role in it in terms of what's your immediate environment and oh, I cannot, I cannot hear, I cannot deal with them going on about how good they. Blah, blah, blah. And I think still there is something about the, the character of a fan base and how they behave from, from what Johnny's saying. I think that still plays into it, but I still think that also immediate environment and just a simple. I, I just want peace and I know that if Arsenal win then I am not going to have my peace and I can't deal with that.
- [41:22]
B
Yeah, I mean, I suppose, and I've said this before, but I think a lot with the Premier League is we, you know, and because Arsenal would be a new winner of the Premier League for so many years compared to City and City have those charges and yet we're just used to City winning. So it's just not as, as a neutral. Even though, you know, I'm a Spurs, I don't hate Arsenal. That's not, that's not it. But it is objectively funny if they come second again, I think, you know, especially, especially the way that it is. The season is panning out anyway. Anyway, tonight in the Europa League, Villa Bologna Villa are three one up on that Forest Porto is poised at one apiece. And then the Conference League palace go to Fiorentina. They are three nil up. That'll do for part two. Part three we'll do a Premier League preview.
- [42:08]
D
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- [42:31]
G
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- [43:08]
B
Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. All right, let's do a Premier League preview. Oh, we should start talking about Arsenal again. But they go to the Etihad. I mean, it's a huge game. If Man City win, then the title race is completely wide open. I think if Arsenal manage to get a point, they should feel very confident. How do you see it, Johnny?
- [43:26]
A
The funny thing is, if you go back through the last few years of this fixture, there's been. There have been quite a few draws, but there have been very few what you call genuinely close games where, you know, or kind of even games. There was the draw earlier this season where Arsenal were totally dominant and Martinelli equalized later on. You had the 51 last. The 22 at the Etihad last season where it was basically an absolute. Where John Stones equalize and it was an absolute rear guard after Arsenal went down to 10 men. So it's actually quite rare in the. And obviously the Carabao Cup Final, which was a wipeout. So it's rare that we've seen these two teams properly going at each other at their peak, properly going each other in the way that you would associate with the City Liverpool games, the great Guardiola Klopp era. And I don't think we're. I don't think we're going to see that on Sunday either. I think we're going to see Arsenal, who an Arsenal team trying to cling on and a City team who are essentially going to try and break them down, who are going to try and essentially get enough dangerous balls in enough dangerous areas. It might be one of those where Arsenal finally have some space to play in. They might find that kind of liberating. But I don't. I don't really associate Arsenal with the word liberating at the moment. So obviously they would love a draw. I think their best chance of getting a draw is not playing for a draw.
- [44:55]
B
Right. I wonder if you look, Archie, at, you know, the way that Semenya is playing and Docu is playing and certainly Arsenal having an issue at right back. That's. That's. If I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be sort of nervous. I'd be nervous there. I'd be nervous, you know, which is what they are.
- [45:14]
F
Despite the fact that Pep Guardiola found the exact game plan to combat Arsenal in the. In the Carabao Cup Final, I do think that the biggest obstacle to City here could be Pep. And all he needs to do is do exactly what they've been doing of late. But in that inner monologue, I'd love to hear what the conversation is of. But maybe, maybe if you did this, maybe if you didn't do that, I reckon that actually he's probably having a terrible week for just all the conversations in his head about, well, but what if I. What if I didn't press them like the Carabao Cup Final? What if we did an extra special plan? And the thing is, it's like, Pep, if you do exactly what you've been doing recently, I don't think that. I don't think that Arsenal will be able to cope. And even if Arsenal were to score, I just think that City have too much for them right now. It's difficult to envision a scenario where Arsenal are able to raise their level of performance to the necessary point. But this is the joy of football, is that we don't know that 100% and could it come from nowhere? But it doesn't look that way right now.
- [46:30]
B
No.
- [46:31]
E
On the CBS show last night, Thierry Henry was very, very animated about this game, saying that Michael Arteta has been talking about the fire in his players that we didn't see it last night against Sporting and he wants to see it at the Etihad and they need to go and win. Draw. Not good enough. They have to go and win.
- [46:57]
B
Well, I think a draw would be an unbelievable result for Arsenal in the relegation fight. So this is how it works chronologically. Leeds beat Wolves at 3 o', clock, spurs lose to Brighton at 5:30, Forest beat Burnley on Sunday and then West Ham win at palace on Monday. Johnny. I mean, yeah, like I've heard people saying, look, Mark Landon said it yesterday, all spurs need is just the one win and then it'll be fine. But you're like. But that is not. That is not a bit. That is not an easy thing for them at the moment. Johnny.
- [47:30]
A
I think that the point where one win would have been fine for them was about three weeks ago, if they'd beaten Forrest, I think that would have been fine. De Zerbi is a. There's been a lot of de Zerbi discourse. And if we park all of that to one side for a moment, I think as a coach and as a coaching personality, he is a strong enough personality to be able to change the mood of the place in a way that Tudor probably wasn't, in a way that Thomas Frank certainly wouldn't have been able to. And I think that's all they're kind of relying on now because the patterns of play, the lack of imagination in possession, the lack of options, the lack of guile in midfield, all of that is kind of set in stone now. They're now without Romero, they have what they have. De Zerbi is not going to be able to work tactical miracles in the next six or seven games, is it? Seven games? Six.
- [48:22]
B
Six games. Yeah.
- [48:23]
A
Right, six. Oh, Jesus. All he could do is just, is just send, you know, hit and hope, you know, send them out there with the right messages and with, you know, with a sense of their own, of the standards that are required. That's all, that's all they've got, really.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah.
- [48:43]
E
He even said it himself last week. He said, I'm not here to coach this team. I'm here to be a big brother and a father figure and sort their heads out. It's almost like they should have appointed a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
- [48:58]
B
Yeah.
- [48:58]
E
Rather than a football coach.
- [49:00]
B
I think you made a really good point, Barry, which is other teams are really invested in relegating them. You know, like Brighton are really good. Brian do have patterns of play. They're a really good football team but you know, especially with the deseri factor, they will be absolutely bang up for going and winning there.
- [49:14]
E
Yeah. And they're on a run of five Premier League wins at six. They've scored 14 goals in their last five games against Spurs. It's obviously, as you say, the deseri derby. But I, I, I, I do believe that other teams want to send spurs down in a way they don't really care about Leeds or West Ham or Burnley or whoever else goes with them.
- [49:40]
A
Well, bet will score.
- [49:41]
B
Oh yeah, yeah. And so will Gross if and so will V. You know, Matt Viper A Ding will get A couple Minter will get. Is a dingra still playing it? I don't know.
- [49:53]
E
No, he's, he's been to, he's at his second club jobs since leaving.
- [49:57]
F
Right.
- [49:59]
A
Glenn.
- [50:00]
F
Glenn Murray Zamora.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah.
- [50:03]
E
Samiento Everyone except Gordon Smith and Smith must score.
- [50:08]
B
Oh, no, but I mean those fixtures for Leeds and Forest, you know, they couldn't be nicer. Home to Wolves of Burnley. So if they both win, well then leads are probably safe, aren't they? Forest are on 33 points. If they win, that takes them to 36. So then it will all be on palace at home to West Ham, you
- [50:28]
E
know, and palace palace famously don't do very well after playing in Europe. No, that's only one. Three games out of 12.
- [50:37]
B
Oh, thanks Barry, they won last weekend. Yeah, yeah, it's true. That's true. Chelsea Man United is on Saturday 8 o' clock in those Champions League fixtures. Uh, the FA handed her and got an extra one match ban of 30,000 pound fine. The official report states that after being sent off against Bournemouth last month, Maguire approached the fourth official and shouted, you're a joke. Joke. You're all a joke. Let's hope, let's hope they haven't heard the Real Madrid chats from yesterday.
- [51:05]
F
That's how Max actually starts the pod.
- [51:07]
B
Guys, people don't know that. Everton, Liverpool. I mean this is. We probably should have got to it sooner. Baz, this is. This is a huge Merseyside derby, isn't it? Because what. Everton are 47 points. They're five points behind Liverpool. They could still finish above them.
- [51:22]
E
Yeah, they could. Everton don't win many more easy side derbys these days. I think just five of the last 52. But they draw a lot of them. They're a very resilient side. They're much, much better than I thought they would be this season. David Moyes is a contender for manager of the year. I mean he probably won't get it obviously, but he's certainly in the conversation. I would not be surprised if Everton come away with this from something. They probably need a win if they have have serious notions of qualifying for the Champions League. And yeah, who's to say they won't win? This is Liverpool's first trip to Hill Dickinson Stadium as well. So be interesting. I'm looking forward to.
- [52:07]
B
Yeah, Villa, Sunderland, Fulham go to Brentford. Do you want a fuller minute, Archie?
- [52:12]
F
This is a derby as well, please. This is a derby which, which. Which both teams care about. And I mean we sing about Harry Wilson given that he has had a run on Brentford in a quite spectacular manner scoring against them in the last three games. He's done it again. He's done it again. Harry Wilson, he's done it again. And they like to taunt us with Jota. Well in the past about Jota scoring in the final minute. They've sung about Diego Forlan with Athletico Madrid and annoyingly they had a really catchy song which was Bees up, Fulham down.
- [52:53]
A
When
- [52:56]
E
certainly better than. He's done it again. He's done it again.
- [53:00]
F
Barry, don't.
- [53:01]
E
Don't.
- [53:02]
B
You could really get into Bees up Mother Brown, couldn't you? You can really get into it.
- [53:06]
F
I know, right?
- [53:06]
E
That's the problem.
- [53:08]
B
I bet as a Fulham fan you're sort of humming along going, I Can't sing it but you know if knees up brother Brown starts anywhere. You can't help yourself, can you?
- [53:14]
F
It's really difficult but yeah we call them a bus stop in Hounslow. They berate us for being posh and they look even though there's only three points between us in the table, they look much better right now. Don't think Marco Silva is going to stay although I look down the table I think you could have nine different managers in the top 14 teams at the start of next season. Just if everything plays like if Arsenal don't win the league could Arteta go Guardiola could he be off like I think the amount of manager managerial overhaul in the summer could be massive in the Premier League.
- [53:49]
B
Yes they'll actually need a merry go round won't they? It'll be fun in On Sky Sports news at Newcastle Bournemouth there are reports that the Saudis are pulling out of Liv Golf. They've denied it but I guess some Newcastle fans might be slightly wary that you know they've got a new five year plan apparently piff streamlining things so it'd be interesting to see what happens. Regards Newcastle United. With that Reg says obviously Northampton's relegation is the main story from last night. How do you think the cobblers will cope in League Two? Yeah, two games in League One last night Luton won 21 at Northampton so Northampton will be relegated at the end of the season. A huge game in League Two tonight 8pm kickoff on Sky Sports. Bromley versus Cambridge United first v third absolutely enormous. I'm terrified. We have a goalkeeper on emergency seven day loan from Preston and whenever you get anyone from any other club you just get get replies from their fans going I'm really sorry you've got this player. So anyway we'll see how that's going up the use and Coventry could be provided if they get a point at Blackburn on Friday night. So we're going to do a big EFL pod on Tuesday. I will finish with this email from Jack a very excited Hammer. Blimey. We haven't had many of them. Hello. My brother in law Dan and his hero wife Lucy have just welcomed their daughter Wanda into the world. Dan and I have bonded endlessly over football weekly over the years attending three live shows together in various states of disarray. He was kind enough to get me a lovely bracket Cynical Barry shout out when I married his sister a few years ago. If Barry or any fellow panelists had any words of life wisdom for Dan, Lucy and new arrival Wanda who will most Likely live the ups and downs of a Fulham supporter. It would be lovely to hear them. Well, I mean, I. I could either go to Archie on the ups and downs of a fullen supporter or Barry to just say, you know, your life is over now you have a child. It's hard to know where to go. But with all due respect, Archie.
- [55:47]
E
Well, I mean, you're the one that complains relentlessly about the vicissitudes of parenthood. I don't have any children, so I. I don't have any particular wisdom to part. I would recommend that neither Dan, Lucy or Wanda run a half marathon or any distance over four miles.
- [56:13]
B
I think it's frowned upon if you enter your naught year old into a half marathon.
- [56:17]
E
Yeah, I did see a guy on Sunday pushing his child. Well, presumably it was his child in a pram.
- [56:26]
B
All right.
- [56:27]
E
Or a go kart bogey, whatever you call them.
- [56:31]
B
Go kart, isn't it?
- [56:32]
E
Yeah. Around the course.
- [56:34]
F
Wow.
- [56:35]
E
And. And that child did it in quicker time than I did.
- [56:39]
B
Fair enough. That it started Strava to impress its mates at Kinder. Who knows? Anyway, look, good luck, Dan and Lucy. May you have a wonderful time. The days are long and the weeks are also long. But that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Johnny.
- [56:56]
A
Thanks.
- [56:57]
B
Thanks, Archie.
- [56:59]
F
Can I just quickly mention what Fortuna Dusseldorf did?
- [57:02]
E
Oh, yes, what's that?
- [57:03]
F
Because Fortuna Dusseldorf sacked their coach, Marcus Anfang, which means beginning in German, and they replaced him with Alexander Ender, which means end. So it was the end for the beginning, but the beginning for the end.
- [57:22]
B
It's really lovely. And actually, Archie, sorry on that. We should have mentioned Union Berlin appointing the first female manager in the Bundesliga. Can you do a minute on that for us?
- [57:35]
F
Marie Louise Etter is stepping up to be head coach for the final five games of the season. She was due to be coaching the Union women's team from the start of next season. It's not been ruled out that she doesn't take this job for longer. There have been predictable sexist comments which have been aimed in the comment sections. Not really seen it in the media, albeit in the media. One or two people saying, well, how will this experiment go? And you think, well, you wouldn't describe it like that if this was a. If this was a man taking over. But she has, she has all the relevant experience. It's. It shouldn't really be a talking point. Just really hope that it goes well for her. She's been an assistant coach at the club already a few years ago. She's been coaching the under 19s this season. And this weekend, home game against Wolfsburg, who are well en route to relegation. They lost again last weekend. Union still have one or two issues, which is why they've sacked their coach, Stefan Baumgart. So, yeah, I should add that to talk of progression in Germany feels difficult this week given that the German women's national team, one of their games is not being shown on free to air tv, it's on live stream. So to talk about there being that much progression of women's writes in football, it seems a bit far fetched still, but it's, it's, it's a, it's a nice step.
- [59:12]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Archie.
- [59:15]
F
Cheers.
- [59:16]
B
Thank you, everyone again. Thank you, Barry.
- [59:18]
E
Yes, thanks. We're going to New York.
- [59:21]
B
New York City. Yes. Oh, for goodness sake. Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray and our executive producer is Ian Chambers. We'll be back on Monday.
- [59:41]
E
We're going to new york.
- [59:43]
B
This is the guardian.