Max Rushden (2:08)

Bonjour, Sava, Philippe A Clair Savant, Trebien, Merci, Max, Maci, Darien and hello. Johnny Liu.

Philippe Auclair (2:15)

Hello.

Max Rushden (2:17)

Let's start then at Wembley. England 3, Wales nil. Matty says as Barry booked flights from New York to the furthest possible country from England, yet it's coming home. Rich is Ellis James okay? Well, Ellis and John were playing the Swansea Building Society arena last night, so no voice Note England were good, Johnny. You know, following that excellent performance in Serbia, it felt very positive.

Philippe Auclair (2:39)

Yeah.

Johnny Liu (2:39)

And I think, you know, it's. It's nice to remember at times that England are allowed to be good, that I think the prevailing noise around this team is so often so negative and just quite bitter in a way that it's possible just to say that was a good performance. They played well. All the pieces seem to. To fit together. What I really like was the mobility. I. I know this, this is a team without Kane Watkins. So much movement, so much like good work, intelligent running up front. You have Rogers combining off. I thought Elliot Anderson was incredible in the base of midfield.

Philippe Auclair (3:15)

He.

Johnny Liu (3:15)

He, I think, has given Tuchel a real problem in that position now. Yeah, Spence was good. Anthony Gordon, so much energy. And even though it sort of. The intensity, like, understandably ticked down a little bit in the second half, I thought the. The defensive desire and hunger to chase back, that was really encouraging. I think that's. That's exactly the sort of thing that Tuchel's going to want to see. That even though it's a friendly, even though, you know, the stadium is emptying, that they're still, you know, tracking back and making fouls and trying to. Trying to stop counter attacks. So, yeah, it is good. Like, Wales were pretty awful. I mean, this is. They played like a League one team, basically. This is a squad that's full of either Premier League or, you know, established championship players in the most part, and they were just dire for half an hour at least.

Max Rushden (4:02)

Why is it a problem that Elliot Anderson's been good? Because that is a. That's a problem position that he seems to, you know, have just slotted in. And I see Morgan Rodgers has given Tuchel a problem because there's Jude Bellingham sitting there and, you know, that's tricky. But for Anderson, I can only see positives.

Johnny Liu (4:16)

Yeah, no, no, I think. I think he's. He's potentially nailed down that. That slot. The midfield is going to be a big puzzle going forward because, you know, there's a huge amount of talent to fit in and you're going to want different players for different game, for different sorts of games. You know, you have Kobbie Mainoo, you have Adam Warton, you have Rice in a slightly more advanced role, but I think Rice and Anderson is becoming that. That established too. No, you're right, it's not. It's a nice headache. It's not. It's a nice dilemma, as they say.

Philippe Auclair (4:43)

Yeah.

Max Rushden (4:43)

Yeah. Barry, what did you. What did you make of it all. I mean, it is interesting because of the people that weren't there as well as the people that were on the pitch.

Barry Glendenning (4:51)

Yeah. This was an England team with no Bellingham, no Foden, no Wharton, no Grealish, no Rhys James, no Harry Kane, no Cole Palmer, no Trent Alexander Arnold and maybe to a lesser extent, no Nonny Madawake, no Tino Livramento. They're all big names, good players, in some cases extremely good players. And England played, I thought, exceptionally well. And Thomas Tuchel in the build up to the game said that he's trying to build a team. It's not about collecting individuals. And I, I'd say unless he's had a word with, with Jude Bellingham and Foden and, and the Grealish, that they're probably fairly worried about their position in the squad going to the World Cup. Will there be one for them? Will there be positions for them on the plane? I think they have every right to be worried because Tuchel doesn't pander to egos. Tuchel is there specifically to do a job, manage England to the World cup, try and win it and then he'll be gone. So if, for example, he elected to leave Jude Bellingham out of the squad, he would probably get pelters from certain quarters. He already got pelters from certain quarters for leaving Bellingham out of this squad. But say he does and England go to the World cup and win it, great. If they go and don't win it, which is more likely, he won't care about any abuse he gets because he'll be gone. He won't be in charge anymore. So I, I do think those players have every right to be concerned, but we should probably dwell more on the players who were there. I don't think anyone in an England shirt put a foot wrong last night. Jordan Pickford had a very quiet night, but he did whatever was asked of him. Heard someone saying he hasn't conceded goal for England in, in a year. Anderson was great. Anthony Gordon was great. Ollie Watkins scored, got his opportunity and scored a goal. Morgan Rogers was great. If I was an England fan, I'd be more concerned about the omission of Adam Wharton than any of the other big name players who weren't there last night. I, I just think he is absolutely terrific. But Tuchel doesn't seem to fancy him as is his.

Ewan Murray (7:17)

His.

Barry Glendenning (7:17)

Right, sure.

Max Rushden (7:18)

I mean, I suppose Elliot Anderson is playing so well, that makes that less of an issue. But what impressed you most, Philippe?

Philippe Auclair (7:24)

The movement to start with because we can say and repeat that Wales were actually not very good, but they were not very good because England made them look terrible. And there was more intensity from that England team. I mean, England has always a problem starting its games. Remember, even against Serbia, it only clicked a little bit later and this time it was front foot and in a friendly from the very first second. I love the interplay between Gordon and Spence. I mean, Spence had a wonderful game. I agree, it was absolutely superb. He's finding relationships. That's one of the hardest things to do. So you've got the relationship on the left, you're going to have the relationship on the right as well. With Bukayo Saka being back as well. You've got a real spine in the team now. He's fine. I mean Marguet. We should also make a lot of him for what he brings and I mean it's pure class he's got now with Gay and Stones, probably in terms of distributors of the ball, the best centre back partnership you can find in English football. So you look at all these things. But more than anything it was the willingness to run and the intelligence of the runs, it was constant. The Welsh didn't know where to look. There was constantly one player darting here, darting there and they were not random runs. They obviously had been worked out and they managed to sustain that for, for a whole half before, you know, the inevitable happened. You know, you put your foot off the gas, you're thinking about the next game, which is a, a more important game in many ways. You're thinking about your club and so forth and you start, you know, changing a few players here and there. But I was, I was mightily impressed and I, I have to say that I, I will join the, the chorus of praise for, for Elliot Anderson. Problem solved. It's, it's remarkable that that player is absolutely superb. We forgot to mention, I think Cole Palmer about the absentees, which I think is a bigger problem than some of the others. I don't think Jude Bellingham at the moment is a problem. The way that Morgan Rodgers is playing in this England team, he really doesn't deserve to have his place taken by a player who's just come back from surgery anyway and who hasn't always produced the goods. Contrary to what some people may think in an England shirt he scored some very important spectacular goals. But I don't think he's been quite the influence on England that some people say he had.

Max Rushden (9:51)

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. Or he tries to do too much perhaps. And Yet, Johnny, you can just see as we get closer to the World cup like, like Barry says, you know, maybe Tuchel won't care, but it would be brave. It'd be brave to start, you know, this team that started or a variant of this one and leave out that many players.

Johnny Liu (10:11)

I don't see any route to England winning the World cup without Jude Bellingham. I, I don't think he was very good last summer at the Euro. He had, he was downright bad for a lot of that tournament. He still won them two games pretty much on his own. They don't beat Serbia without him. They don't beat Slovakia without him.

Philippe Auclair (10:26)

Sure.

Max Rushden (10:27)

But sorry, sorry to play devil's advocate but like if somebody had been there playing well, they wouldn't have needed to score an overhead kick, I suppose is the point.

Johnny Liu (10:35)

No, no, totally. But I mean that, that's not just about his, his bicycle kick. He was the best player on the pitch for half a game against, against Serbia and the reason they drop off in, in that first game is not, is not his fault, I think. Yeah, you cannot, you cannot win an international tournament. Even if you're, even if you're peak Spain, you don't win an international tournament without being able to win games in lots and lots of different ways. Some games you're going to have to steamroll the opposition. Some, some games you're going to have to be a little bit lucky because the margins are going to be so tight and I think you need, you need players like Bellingham and Palmer as well for some of those situations and, and not necessarily all of them. I think there is a case that, you know, you bring him on for the last half hour in games that are tight and same same with Palmer. What, what Tukal I think has shown so far in his, in his selections is that he, he prioritizes players who can follow a plan. Morgan Rogers can follow a plan. Bakayo Saka. He loves it. He loves essay for this reason because as they can follow a plan and who will go pretty much where he tells them. And so I think that's going to be the basis of his team going forward. But you, you still, I think also need players who can deviate from a plan because international tournaments are one on luck and brilliance as much as they are on systems and processes.

Philippe Auclair (11:47)

I think there's one difference for Bellingham. Cole Palmer, Jack Grealish, regardless of their talent, are players that you can sub in. Bellingham is a starter. That's a huge difference because in the group it doesn't have the same status. He doesn't have the same status in terms of image. He doesn't have the same status in terms of the way he presents himself and what he expects to get. And I think that a Jude Bellingham who would stay on the subs bench would not necessarily be very good for the England dressing room, if you see what I mean. I think he's one of those players. Yes, you can try and build a team around an exceptional talent like he is, but I don't think you can leave him on the bench and just ask him to switch it on when he comes on. You know, like Grealish can do that and Cole Palmer can do that, no problem. I think it's a completely different problem and it's going to turn into one of those sagas. My dear Max, we're starting now. We've got quite a few months to go, but there will be columns, many columns, many debates, many people putting their, you know, putting their opinions across in a very, very strong way. And it's going to become, yes, I wouldn't call it the Dreyfus affair of English football because Dreyfus ended up in a penitentiary in Guyana, which is not exactly the same thing. It was a tragedy. This is not a tragedy. This is actually quite funny. But it's going to turn into a soap opera, there's no doubt about that.

Max Rushden (13:17)

It's quite interesting, Barry. I don't know how good or not Bellingham is in a dressing room. I take Philippe's point that there are players that expect to start. It sort of reflects a bit on what Steven Gerrard was saying about the golden generation, not all clicking being a great vibe. And Tuchel needs to build that, doesn't he? If he's going to start players who are inverted commas, lesser or seen as sort of not as high profile, he needs to somehow build a vibe where he can then rely on somebody who is a superstar to come off the bench.

Barry Glendenning (13:48)

Yeah. I have no idea, like you, what kind of presence Bellingham is around the camp. If. If a Bellingham who feels he's should be starting, isn't starting, he's going to sulk and brood and create disharmony. I. I just don't know. There seems to be a suggestion that his dad is a very difficult man to have around and can be a malign influence on dressing rooms. I read somewhere recently that Job, who left Sunderland during the summer to go to Brussels, Dortmund is considering his options now because he feels he's not getting enough game time with Dortmund is That him or is that his dad? I don't know. But there seems to be a suggestion that Bellingham senior can be quite difficult if he feels his sons aren't getting the treatment they deserve or the respect they deserve. But I would say if Tucu was in any doubt, he wouldn't think twice about leaving him out. Johnny disagrees. Johnny thinks he is needed. I'm not so sure. Whoever England take to the World cup, lots of incredibly good players are going to be left behind. Players will get injured in the next few months and they'll miss out, probably. So opportunities will present themselves. But it is very nice. I wish Ireland had this kind of problem. Put it this way, Ellie.

Max Rushden (15:24)

Yes.

Philippe Auclair (15:24)

I just want to draw a parallel. The idea of leaving out a player who is considered to be maybe even the best of his, you know, of his age group and of this particular generation. Some teams have done it with great success. And one team that I'm particularly fond of, which is my French team, the French team started its 1998 World cup campaign by leaving out Eric Canton and David Ginola, who were supposed to be the two best French attacking players of that generation. I'm not joking. And of course there was Zidane and there was Jorcaif, but Dugarry and Quivach went to the World cup, to the Euro 1996 and to the World Cup 98. It's part of the same trajectory. Eric Cantona and David Ginella were cut out from the group by Aimi Jacquet. That was one of his first decisions as a manager. It worked.

Max Rushden (16:19)

It worked. It's mad when you think about it.

Barry Glendenning (16:22)

It undeniably did work because they won the tournament. But I remember Stefan Guevar in that tournament.

Philippe Auclair (16:29)

Oh, bless him, he was very much.

Barry Glendenning (16:32)

A passenger on that team. 10 man France won that World cup.

Johnny Liu (16:37)

But Bellingham isn't Cantona or Ginela in this scenario. I think we're being slightly harsher, to be honest.

Max Rushden (16:43)

Yeah, no, no, maybe you're right.

Johnny Liu (16:45)

He is. He's Zidane in this scenario. Zidane, who didn't do a lot at €96, got sent off in the, in the early stages of, of the World cup in, in 98 and there's this big national, you know, how you know, is. Is Zidane ever going to turn up for us? And he does, he does eventually, you know, plot twist. He does turn up for them, you know, he's the guy that does, you know, I think, I think he does need a certain license and I think, you know, it Is it is hard to say that he's basically what we're saying. He's too much of a dick to be. To sit. To sit on the, on the bench, which I, I think I don't see. You know, you. I don't see a huge amount of evidence for that. He's. I think it's a judgment call that people make based on little snippets that, that you hear about him or you see about him that I think on like, like Barry says, we don't have the full picture. I, I think there, there is an ego there, but I, I don't also see it at any of his previous clubs. There's not been any evidence that he hasn't been willing to, to submit himself for the team. I think his natural game is sort of roaming. It might, tactically, it might be hard for a coach to integrate him into his tactical plan, but I don't see a huge amount of evidence that he's going to be like a problem child in that respect.

Philippe Auclair (17:57)

I need to intervene because you're calling me out. Johnny Liu. When I talk about Canton and Ginola, I'm talking about the media impact of their non selection. That's what I was talking about. I wasn't comparing the style of the players. It's that there was a Cantona camp and a no Cantatana camp. There's the rest of it but Canton.

Johnny Liu (18:14)

Or Kick to fun Cantonola, he leapt into the crowd and kicked a fan. And that's part of the reason.

Philippe Auclair (18:19)

Yeah, but he came back. He came back and he had his best ever season for Manchester United. At which point the clamor for his inclusion in the French national team was absolutely deafening. And the same when, remember David Ginola became the double player of the year in England, quite controversially, I must say, but at the time when he was no longer playing for France. But that was my point. It was about the media attention. And the second thing, when the idea that it's because he would be a kind of sulky character. It's not exactly what I have in mind. It's what I have in mind that England cannot play with Jude Bellingham as England plays with Jude Bellingham. If you see what I mean. If he's in the team, you've got to accommodate the team to an absolutely exceptional talent. Nobody's doubting that. So you would need quite a change, I think, in the way England is set up. If you've got Bellingham or if you haven't got Bellingham. That's my concern on this Point. This is quite different from saying he's a bit of a dick. That's not the point. Even though if you talk to his ex Borussia Dortmund teammates, he wasn't the best love character in the dressing room. But on the other hand, he was by head and shoulders above any other player and he made the success of Morrison Dortmund. So there you go.

Johnny Liu (19:28)

And that's on Tuchel. I mean, this is what Tuchel is doing, right? He is trying to accommodate. He might be suspended, he might be injured next summer for whatever reason. He might not have Bellingham available and he is trying to build solutions that work without him. So I think that's a test of coaching as much as anything.

Max Rushden (19:46)

Yeah. To move on from Bellingham serenity, because there's a lot of projection. He might be a total delight, you know, and come on and play 20 minutes and go, this is my dream and win us the World Cup. We don't and he's an exceptional talent. But it was interesting that Barry, that Philippe mentioned the amount of running that Ollie Watkins did and obviously Harry Kane is having the season of his life. But it is sort of similar. You have to play slightly differently, I guess, if you have a centre forward like Kane who is brilliant and scores lots of goals, or if you have someone who runs and runs and runs and runs and runs.

Barry Glendenning (20:13)

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the goals were very soft. You have to factor in. Wales were terrible last night. Yeah, no, yeah, like really bad. They. And it's probably good they got that honkering performance out of their system before their big game against Belgium on Monday. What can score the goal? It was well taken, but he was unmarked on the line. He also missed an extremely good chance when he clattered his shin off the post. I thought he might done himself serious mischief there, but he got away with it. Wales should not have allowed Saka to score that sack a goal. And they were three soft goals, but they did score them. They could have scored more. They probably should have scored five or six. But there's no doubt in my mind Harry Kane is their standout striker and if anything were to happen to him, it would be a huge source of concern.

Max Rushden (21:09)

Johnny, what did you make of Thomas Tuchel calling out the crowd? He said the stadium was silent. We didn't get any energy back from the stands. We did everything to win. If you hear just Wales fans for an hour, it's sad because the team deserved more support today. I felt that as an England fan going to England games before I was, you know, when I was Young and not in the media at all, that there was a sort of inhibition for England fans, especially at home. I know there's lots of kids and families, but I Remember at year 96 at half time, all the Scotland fans just booming out, status quo and having the time of their life and us all standing there going, I wish we could have that much fun. But for some reason we can't.

Johnny Liu (21:43)

Yeah, this is, this is why England, England always had trouble winning at Lords for a long time because for, for every team visiting, it's their cup final, it's a huge occasion for them. And the, the other side of it is that England play at Wembley far too much, they play at Lords far too much, they play at Wembley far too much, and it becomes almost rote and routine for them. And, you know, you would.

Max Rushden (22:03)

Tuchel.

Johnny Liu (22:04)

Well, welcome to a Wembley October friendly. That is basically what it's like. And that's something you have to. That's something you have to live with. And other countries get around this by taking their games to other stadiums, which England have started to do a little bit, to be fair to them. But I think there is a huge difference between the atmosphere at Wembley and the atmosphere you would get at, I don't know, Villa Park, Stadium of Light. Like, you know, you could name 30 grounds in, in. In England where you would get a much better, you know, you'd maybe lose out a little bit on Club Wembley subscriptions and whatever, but you get a much better atmosphere supporting the team. But obviously the FA need Wembley. They need to milk Wembley for as much as they can get, because that is their. That is their, you know, cash cow. And that's something that Tuchel knew when he took on the job. And that's something he's going to have to work with.

Philippe Auclair (22:55)

But I think there's one thing we should thank the FA for, because I have to say I'm not the only one who found that their partnership with the Alzheimer's Society, it was very, very, very powerful. And to watch these people who are suffering from this awful disease come to the pitch with England players who, by the way, were chatting to absolutely everybody and singing the national anthems. I have to say I cracked up a bit. It was well done, the FA for that.

Ewan Murray (23:23)

Yeah.

Johnny Liu (23:24)

Now, from some proper research, the mascots.

Max Rushden (23:27)

That led the teams out with 22 men and women suffering or living with Alzheimer's disease or dementia, and it was the Alzheimer's Society who did that initiative. Fans were chosen from England and Wales. And yes, a good point. You make Johnny about research into the impact of playing football?

Johnny Liu (23:44)

No, no. Like, sorry, campaigners have been, have been saying that the FA have been dragging their feet and, you know, not, not just the fa, but football players have been dragging their feet on properly funding, like really thorough, comprehensive studies and research into MND and Alzheimer's and other kind of related diseases. So it's a really nice gesture, but obviously it needs to be Open your wallet.

Philippe Auclair (24:05)

Well, it's not really up to the FA to fund that. I think it's to our government to fund that. The FAA is not responsible for funding medical research, apart of course, in conditions which are created by playing football, which is not exactly what this is about. And I think we shouldn't be too harsh on them. It actually really brought home the message. I think on this occasion, I think we sometimes we have to see the glass half full when it is not quite so.

Johnny Liu (24:29)

I agree with that.

Max Rushden (24:31)

All right, that'll do for part one. You and Murray will join us from the Jazz Bar to talk about Scotland's win over Greece in part two, the Chaz Bar. Hi, Football Weekly fans of America. Max here. Barry's here too.

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Hello.

Max Rushden (24:44)

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Max Rushden (26:46)

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Live from the Jazz Bar, Ewan Murray joins us.

Johnny Liu (26:51)

How are.

Max Rushden (26:52)

Ewan? You okay?

Ewan Murray (26:53)

Hello. How are you?

Max Rushden (26:54)

Yeah, very good. Ken says, which was the biggest British theft from Greece? Scotland's amazing results tonight or the Elgin or the Elgin Marbles? Yeah, I mean, look, when you first see three one, you think, oh, that's a good comeback. But it doesn't tell the whole story, does it, Ewan?

Ewan Murray (27:09)

No, I mean, I've. I've witnessed a lot of weird football games in my time, but that was right up there. I mean, how Scotland won, let alone by two clear goals, I don't know. That's twice Scotland have done that. Degrees. They did it in Athens in the first leg of the. The Nations League playoff in March. Now Greece come back and won the second leg. It didn't really matter, but that's two games out of three, I think. Scotland have been comprehensively outplayed by Greece, but have won the game. So they'll be. They'll be sick of the sight of us at this point.

Johnny Liu (27:39)

Yeah.

Max Rushden (27:40)

It means, Scott, on a second. I mean, the level on points with Denmark, I mean, that, you know, given how the group would look, Ewan, if Greece had won this game like they should have done, it's absolutely enormous, isn't it?

Ewan Murray (27:50)

Absolutely. And listen, the flip side is, you know, ultimately, Greece didn't take their opportunities. So, I mean, part of you shrugs your shoulders and says, well, you know, in that case, you don't deserve to win. So maybe we shouldn't. We shouldn't shed tears from it for them. But, yeah, Scotland are now in a fantastic position. They. They play Belarus on Sunday, who I think I can comfortably say they will. They will beat. And then they go to Greece and then a home game against Denmark to finish off, which already looks like a, you know, a massive tie. They're in a better position than I thought they would be in, and they're in, I think, the best position since 1998 to get back to World cup.

Max Rushden (28:30)

The way you said they will comfortably beat. Belarus is the most confident I've Ever heard anyone say predict a Scotland result?

Barry Glendenning (28:38)

I just heard a very loud internal alarm bell when he said that.

Ewan Murray (28:43)

No, no, no, no. This, this, this Belarus team is very, very poor and Scotland are at home. I would be. I'm happy to come back on here on Monday morning dressed however you want me to dress and say whatever you want me to say. I think Scotland will win. I'm quite happy seeing that. And I'm a cynic, as you know.

Max Rushden (29:00)

Yes, we do. Steve Gottman, you know, he took off Gannon Doak, who was playing well, there wasn't not end product but like he was really bright spark brought on Billy Gilmour and actually it did make a difference, didn't it?

Barry Glendenning (29:14)

Yeah.

Ewan Murray (29:15)

I'm not sure how well Ganondorf was playing. That substitution was met with kind of dismay in the stands. I. The important thing was putting Gilmore on just to get a bit of control of the game and keep the ball in midfield. And he did that very well. You know, Gilmore, Gilmore has a habit of not playing. You know, Clark is. Abbott is not picking him in some of these bigger games for Scotland, which, Which raises eyebrows because until he came on, Greece were completely dominating that. That part of the pitch.

Max Rushden (29:39)

Yeah. And look, you have to credit them for scoring three goals, Ewan.

Ewan Murray (29:43)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what I mean for all. For all I openly say I think Greece was superior in so many departments. They didn't take their chances and Scotland did. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the third goal, the London dice goal by the Greek goalkeeper. So I don't. I don't know how much praise you give Scotland for that. But yeah, I mean, from 1 nil down from being on the ropes and at that point, your whole World cup situations and deep jeopardy, they recovered very, very well and got the result they needed. And in such a, you know, truncated section, that's ultimately what, you know, that's all that counts.

Max Rushden (30:18)

And actually it's worth you in pointing out the save that Angus Gunn made just before Lyndon Dyke scored is a brilliant save.

Ewan Murray (30:24)

Brilliant save from. From Karetsis, who came on. He was on the bench, the Greek kind of wonder kid and. But he's. He said flu, so he didn't start the game. He. Come on. That would have been 2. 2. And fair play to Angus Gun. He's gone to Nottingham Forest, but he's not playing. I think going by his own comments, he expected to play a lot more than he. He has been. So he's. He's not had competitive action, but Scotland needed him there and he. And he pulled out a great save because that would have been again, 2, 2 draw at home with Greece. The mood would be totally different to what it is this morning.

Barry Glendenning (30:57)

You, goalkeeper is an issue for Scotland, isn't it? Because, yeah, the three goalies they had in the squad last night had, I think one appearance between them this season for the guy from Rangers whose name escapes me, then there's him gone and Craig Gordon. So that, that and Craig Gordon's obviously injury prone and 42. So it's going to be an issue for them, isn't it?

Ewan Murray (31:24)

Absolutely. There's a bit of a national crisis with them, with goalkeepers. To be fair to Gun, who I have never been particularly sure about, he's played very well for Scotland recently. He played very well in Copenhagen. Yeah, in the last month at the start of the section, as we just said, when called upon last night, he. He pulled out a sea. But there is a broader and bigger problem that Scotland has a massive talent gap between Craig Gordon, as you say. I mean, Craig isn't playing for Hearts. He's not the first choice goalkeeper at heart. Seven come back from injury anyway, but there's no one apparently younger coming through. So we're kind of hoping that Angus Gunn does reasonably well. We hang on to him as the. As the first choice goalkeeper for now and someone emerges from the, from the shadows. But there's a broader and bigger issue there about the, you know, the lack of Scottish goalkeeping talent.

Max Rushden (32:14)

Look, it's every part of me just itching to say, what about Anti Niemi? But, you know, that's for listeners who haven't heard that clip. Somebody rings in Talksport years ago to talk about, you know, who to pick in goal and he says, what about Anti Niemi? And someone says, he's Finnish. And the guy says, he's not Finnish, he's near Finnish. He's only 28. It's just one of the great phone calls in voting history.

Ewan Murray (32:40)

Surely nobody anywhere has not heard that by now.

Philippe Auclair (32:43)

Surely you don't have to repeat that, Auntie Nemi.

Max Rushden (32:46)

Aye.

Philippe Auclair (32:46)

I don't know why he doesn't get a game for Scotland. Aye, he's from Finland. He's what? He's finished, isn't he? He's not finished.

Max Rushden (32:53)

He's only 28.

Philippe Auclair (32:54)

No, not finished. He's from Finland. What do you mean? That's what his nationality is. Finnish. He's from Finland. He's not Scottish. No.

Max Rushden (33:04)

Oh, I thought he was Scottish. Jim says, would Barry have scored the opportunity that Greece passed up in the first 10 minutes. Or is it only head as he does at the back post? It was some miss from Pavlides Barry, wasn't it?

Barry Glendenning (33:15)

Yeah, the ball was squared across the face of goal. He had a tap in at the back post and somehow didn't connect with the ball. He. He missed another good opportunity as well. Headed over when he should have scored. I mean, Missouri fired over when he probably should have scored. Greece should have been out of sight, I think Scotland, well, there's no question they rolled their luck last night, but fair play to them. They. They got there in the end.

Ewan Murray (33:45)

It was. Steve Clark said after the match, he said, you know, the first half was tricky, but, you know, Greece doesn't really care. Was open, I thought. I think they did.

Johnny Liu (33:56)

Johnny Clark's been in charge for six years now. Right. I was. I was watching the game at the. At the pub last night because they had. They had several screens. They were showing the England game and they were showing the Scotland game, also the World Grand Prix darts. So that was the. The kind of. The optimum setup. And I, you know, there were a couple of Scottish fans, Scottish guys there. And what they kept saying was under Clark that they don't seem to have. They kept saying, we got no identity, we've got no playing style. And I wonder whether that was because of the talent that is available to him now, which is of a kind of different order to predecessors in his job. You know, that. That kind of Serie A midfield.

Ewan Murray (34:30)

Yeah.

Johnny Liu (34:31)

Is there. Are the expectations on him more elevated now in terms of the style and the kind of football that the fans are expecting him to play? Because it looked like. It looked to me like they were sort of playing or they were caught between two stalls, really trying to play good football, but also trying to play effective football. But the part that was good wasn't really effective. And the part that was effective wasn't really good.

Ewan Murray (34:53)

Yeah. I think, to answer your question, yes, there is higher expectation. I'm not sure that's entirely valid. Of course, Scott McTominay has been a. A revelation. But, you know, Andy Robertson plays for Liverpool now. Not every week, but if you look beyond it. I've just spoken about the goalkeeping position. If you look at center back, if you look at center forward, there's not that much depth of talent. And I think sometimes people's expectations where Scotland should be is misplaced. I mean, Steve Clark, this will be his last campaign, come what may. He's either gonna leave a hero in the summer, having taken him to the World cup or he's, you know, it's going to fizzle out and it will be disappointing and he'll leave in the summer anyway. But he could be the first manager in history to bring Scotland to three major tournaments. I mean, he's brought them to back to back euros, which have both been disappointing. I should, I should hasten to add, if he brings them to a World cup as well, as I said, the first one since 1998, I think he's done a fantastic job. But, but yes, to answer your question, Johnny, there is that knowing sense of this team should be better. I'm not entirely sure that's accurate or fair, but. But that definitely does exist.

Max Rushden (35:56)

He equal Craig Brown's record of 71 games in charge last night. So he'll be the longest ever serving Scotland manager by the end of that huge victory over Belarus. While you're with us, Ewan, we should talk. Russell Martin. We, we talked about it on Monday a little bit, but sacked as Rangers head coach after 123 days and. Blimey, Ewan, what? 123 days? It was.

Ewan Murray (36:18)

Yeah. I have, I have never known any manager to meet such antipathy from the moment they stepped in the door. I mean, it was like you'd been a captain of Celtic who blew his nose in the corner fly at Ibrook once or something like that. I mean, the whole, the whole thing was. It got vicious, but it was almost vicious from the start and I don't entirely know why. I mean, ultimately he was the wrong guy in the wrong movie and it didn't work. Yeah, I thought by the end the abuse he got was. Was unfair and over the score. I mean, he didn't appoint himself to the job, did he? But so I think, I think it crossed the line and actually for, you know, for the good of his health, he's better off out of that situation.

Philippe Auclair (36:56)

I think the reason why he's been the subject of such abuse from the very beginning. For me, it's obvious it's Rangers, he's vegan and he's voted for the Green Party. And you have to see the comments of the story. MSP murder Fraser after he was sacked, who said, no more vegans, Buddhists or greens at Rangers. I mean, and I think you've said that. I think you said pretty much everything. Would you agree, Ewan?

Ewan Murray (37:25)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, he was reported to the police for those comments, I think as well, wasn't he? I. I don't know. I mean, I Think what, what we've seen here is a build up of frustration because Rangers have more often than not been a clear second best to Celtic and people are fed up with it. But I look at some of the managers in recent times, the Rangers fans have got behind and I think, well, why. Why did Martin get this level of animosity? It. It intrigues me and no Rangers fan I know can particularly answer it. They can answer why he wasn't a good manager and didn't fit the job and didn't fit the, the club. And I understand all that stuff, but I think he was so on the back foot from the, from the outset that it was a, it was a weird situation.

Max Rushden (38:06)

I've just checked. Steven Gerrard says my diet is heavy with protein and carbohydrates on a match day. That means lots of chicken, fish and eggs for the protein and pasta. So he is not a vegan.

Johnny Liu (38:17)

My. But might ban ketchup though.

Max Rushden (38:19)

Yeah, that's true. I don't know if he's a Green. I have spent some time with Steven Jarrad. I don't know his politics, I don't know if he's a Green party voter, but he, he's the favorite to take charge and actually it's sort of. It's sort of a perfect situation for everyone, isn't it, Ewan?

Ewan Murray (38:34)

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I don't know what other options he would have given the way his coaching career has gone and for the reasons we spoke about with Rangers when there's been so much antipathy towards a manager which then rumbled on towards the board, but what do you do? To me, you appoint the most populous option and that is Steven Gerrard. You know, I'm not saying 100 of Rangers fans want him to get the job because that's not fair, but if he gets the job, you can guarantee fans will get completely behind him and that is what they need at the moment. Whether he'll do a good job, whether he's a capable manager. I think that's very much up for debate. But I just think he's the. As you said, I think it's the obvious answer all around just now.

Max Rushden (39:13)

Hearts are top, aren't they? Which is exciting.

Ewan Murray (39:16)

High flying hearts. Yes, very much so. There's two things going on there. One, the. The need basically for another team to. To challenge in Scotland. It's been 40 years since. It's going to be 41 years since a team that isn't set to your Rangers won the league. So there's, there's a broader call for that to end, which is sensible and legitimate. But also Tony Bloom has got involved in Hearts. Hearts use Jamestown analytics, his recruitment model, and it's in its infancy in terms of Heart's relationship with that, but it's already proving hugely successful and they've had, they've had an excellent start to the season. They play Celtic in two games, the two games time at Tyencastle and that already looks like a, you know, a hugely exciting game.

Max Rushden (39:57)

Good stuff, Ewan. Thanks for coming on, pal.

Ewan Murray (39:59)

Thank you. And if Scotland don't win by at least two clear goals on Sunday, you can ridicule me as much as you like.

Max Rushden (40:06)

Okay? Well, we absolutely will.

Barry Glendenning (40:09)

We didn't need your permission.

Ewan Murray (40:13)

Maybe you do that anyway. That's fine.

Max Rushden (40:17)

Yeah. Part three is always just ridiculing you. You, you should listen, big man. Ewan Murray there, our Scottish football correspondent. Quickly and completely unrelated managerial sacking and rehiring news. Watford have sacked coach Paolo Pezzolano after just 10 games in charge. They spun the wheel and Javi Grassia has the job back. What's amazing is how Petzolano managed to sneak into the Kique Sanchez, Flores, twister board to get the job. But there is Javi Gracia and we look forward to Paolo Pezzilano getting the Watford job in about three years time. George Ellick is here on Monday to do some EFL stuff, so we'll cover that in detail. Other international news, Austria got their all time biggest win. They beat San Marino 100 four goals for Marco Arnortovic and like 6, 0 at half time. They really wanted 10. Like they kept scoring and getting the ball out of the net and going back to the centre circle, which is, you know, perhaps a bit harsh on San Marino, but you know, we always complain when it's 5 nil at half time and 5 nil at full time. So well done to them. Faroe island scored four against Montenegro. From the sweeperpod Twitter feed. A historic night for the Faroe Islands have equaled their biggest ever victory. Goring was rounded off by Arnie Fredericksberg, who once combined his semi pro football career with job as a frozen pizza salesman. Northern Ireland play Slovakia tonight. Poland, Ireland on Saturday. Troy Parrot said in the build up to this one, Barry, that it's not over until it's over. How close do you think it is to being over?

Barry Glendenning (41:42)

It's not Poland, is it?

Max Rushden (41:44)

Sorry, did I say Poland? I meant Portugal.

Barry Glendenning (41:46)

Yeah.

Max Rushden (41:47)

Oh, it's a shame, isn't it?

Barry Glendenning (41:52)

I mean, I wouldn't be confident of that one either, but yeah, give us Poland. Yeah, I was stunned. I was really thinking hard. How do I feel about that one? Scared is the answer. Portugal in Lisbon. Ireland's players and John o' Shea did the presser yesterday. They're all making all the right noises and being very apologetic about being beaten by Armenia. But do your talking on the pitch, lads. You shouldn't, you know. They were, well beaten by Armenia. That wasn't some freakish upset or anything. Armenia were, well, very worthy winners. And I will be astonished if Ireland come away from Lisbon with anything other than a heavy beating.

Max Rushden (42:44)

All right, that'll do for part two. Part three we will discuss Israel's continued participation in the World cup qualifiers.

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Max Rushden (44:35)

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Israel playing Norway on Saturday, Italy on Tuesday. There are security concerns over both matches. Johnny and Philippe, you both wanted to talk about this and when you both wanted to talk about it. It was before the ceasefire. So Hamas and Israel. This is the headline on the Guardian homepage right now. Prepare to implement ceasefire. As Netanyahu says, the deal is approved by the government. And I guess, Philippe, this has given both FIFA and UEFA an out, hasn't it?

Philippe Auclair (45:02)

For the time being. Because, you know, fingers crossed. We don't know how this is going to evolve, but the problem for them has been if it is a problem that they have been not dragging their feet, but pretending they didn't have any feet to track to start with for a very long time. And I think one important thing, when you talk about the suspension of Israel, you have to remember that it is a situation that has been going on way before. What happened on the 7th of October and what happened after the 7th of October. I think it's important to recontextualize that in 2015, FIFA had actually commissioned a report which was led by the South African Tokio Sekwale, you remember him, the man with the greatest name in football. The report was submitted just as everything exploded at FIFA in 2015. The raid on Borlak, the suspension of Platini, of Blatter, of so many other people. And this report basically recommended the suspension of Israel back in 2015 for a simple reason, which is the fact that in the Israeli leagues there are clubs which have been formed in the occupied territories, the illegally occupied territories of Palestine and which are part of the Israel league system. That is a clear violation of the statuses of both UEFA and FIFA. It's been going on for years and years. Then this tragedy happens, this catastrophe happens and then so the pressure becomes absolutely huge, but they're trying to find ways out of it. You have to remember the UEFA, they said that there was going to be this emergency meeting, you remember Max, about convening the executive committee which was minded to suspend Israel. There was never any official statement. It was leaked out in the private briefing to a couple of members of the media. That's all there was. So even that was done in a kind of non official way only for them before the Trump. Well, the American proposal was accepted in loads of brackets here by Israel. And before that happened, they said, oh no, no, no, we're not going to have this meeting because, well, we have to give peace a chance, basically, which honestly, yes, absolutely, let's give peace a chance. We're all praying for peace. But this was as hypocritical as you can get. And I can tell you one thing, when UEFA made that first statement about the meeting of the executive committee and the possible suspension of Israel. I contacted, and some of my colleagues as well, contacted members of the executive council of UEFA. None of them, and I said none of them, were aware that this meeting would take place. And as for FIFA, we can't hope anything from FIFA. They just refuse to face to the situation they have done that for. You know, I don't want to go into the reasons. Maybe Jonathan can do that, maybe, you know, you can talk about it, but we have to know the background of what is going on. It's basically a problem that UEFA, FIFA don't want to deal with. That's as simple as that. Regardless of the catastrophic situation, regardless of the fact that this has been going on for over a decade, they don't want to deal with it.

Johnny Liu (48:25)

Yeah, I mean, I totally understand the. I understand what I would call the institutional reticence. I hesitate to call it cowardice, because I think there are huge practical, legal, institutional, sporting consequences to making a decision of this magnitude. You are essentially going up against so much of the vested interests, not just in the sport, but in global politics. We've seen how strongly the US State Department came out against even the suggestion that Israel might be excluded from 2026 World cup qualifying. This is the level of pushback you're going to be dealing with. For me, the moral case is totally unarguable. Israel had absolutely no place playing any kind of representative international sport at all, for reasons I think I've outlined in my, in my writing and for the, for the, for the plain reason that, you know, they are. They are trying to exterminate another country, another member state, a FIFA member state. This was happening obviously before, long before the bombing campaign in Gaza. The, The Palestinian football team that is based in Ramallah in the west bank has been as. Faced, insuperable, like, absolutely incredible obstacles. Simply try to play games because of things like road blockades, because of things like travel restrictions, the fact that, you know, players are simply basically unable to get to basic things like training and access facilities. So there's that. And also you have the fact that I don't know the exact number. I don't, you know, sadly, I'm not keeping a running tally, but this role has killed over 800 Palestinian athletes since the bombing campaign in Gaza. And I think, you know, is Israel uniquely evil? I think that's. That's what people would assume that I'm saying. Of course not. Are there not other rogue states elsewhere committing really, quite, quite staggering crimes? Of course there are. But I think that there comes a point where you need to, morally speaking, you need to draw a line in the sand. And I understand why that drawing that line is hard, but I think for, for the sake of simple humanity, it does need to be done.

Max Rushden (50:38)

According to the Palestinian Football Association, 437 Palestinian footballers have been killed in Israeli attacks since October 2023. Palestinian health authorities say that Israel's actions have killed more than 67,000 people, nearly a third of the dead under the age of 18. And that is all since the 7th of October, when Hamas took the lives of at least 1219 people and led to the taking of 251 hostages, most of them Israeli citizens. Just on the game in Oslo, there'll be heightened security measures. No fan zone capacity reduced to 3,000. Protest in Oslo has been announced by the Norwegian Palestine Committee to coincide with the match. The Norwegian Football Federation said proceeds from the game will be donated to a humanitarian cause earmarked for medicine Sans Frontieres and their emergency relief efforts in Gaza and surrounding areas. In Italy, the mayor of Udine and Alberto Felice de Tony told Italy's La Pressa, I'd asked for the Israel match to be postponed because the atmosphere was not right for a national celebration as a national team game should be. That request was not considered by the authorities for various reasons. It would have been better idea to play it behind closed doors to avoid throwing fuel on the fire.

Philippe Auclair (51:46)

Philippe, I've just come back from the Play the Game conference where Lisa Clavenus, the president of the Norwegian Football Federation, was speaking. She actually confirmed that there was a majority of UEFA EXCO members who were in favor of a suspension, which is very important because it means if there had been this meeting and if there had been a vote, Israel would now be suspended. The decision not to do anything is lying with the people at the very top of UEFA, not necessarily the people from the Executive Council who represent European federations. I think it's an important thing to specify here elsewhere.

Max Rushden (52:30)

Johnny, you wanted to talk about Carlo Ancelotti in Brazil.

Johnny Liu (52:33)

Yeah, I think I saw doing a press conference in Portugues Guineas the other day yesterday. He's in Seoul. They're in Seoul. I think they're playing in a few hours friendly against South Korea. So add that language to his repertoire. I think it's a really. It's an utterly fascinating marriage because you have here one of the most, I think, underperforming nations, certainly at a global level, at World cup level, with a really proud football culture and heritage and tradition. And five World Cups, as we know. Essentially turning to this guy from, from European football and saying, can you make us rational and sane? Can you, can you create something, you know, coherent out of these really disparate parts? Because, you know, the irony is that Brazilian football is certainly a domestic level, is a place that coaches basically get fired after three or four months. You know, you have. You have six bad games and you're gone. Pretty much where the style of football is often like, it's wildly mixed, it's often not very good. And yet you have an industry which is absolutely. There's not still nothing better than Brazilian football at exporting footballers, producing footballers and exporting them around the world and getting them to plug in and play. Whether it's, you know, Ukraine, Wolf, Scotland or Italy or Qatar or Australia, whatever. Yeah, there was. There were Brazilian. There are Brazilian footballers everywhere. And yet nobody has ever managed to draw these disparate strands together. Well, nobody for what a couple of decades has been able to draw these disparate strands together. I just, I find it really fascinating to see whether, whether Ancelotti can do it, because he's the fix it guy, right? He's the, he's the guy who, who takes stars, who takes stars from around the world and speaks in their language and makes them. And creates an environment, makes them feel comfortable and, and gets music out of them. So, yeah, it was interesting that he said he, what? He wants players. He was saying ahead of this. He wants. He doesn't want players who want to win the Ballon d'.

Ewan Murray (54:27)

Or.

Johnny Liu (54:27)

He doesn't want players who are. Who want to win a World cup for, for Ballon d' or purposes that. For individual glamour. He wants players who could, who could submit to the team. I think it's a similar conversation to what we were having with Tuchel in England. And I just think, yeah, if Ancelotti can't do it, then I don't know who can, to be honest.

Philippe Auclair (54:46)

Yeah. Just add one funny thing about this Brazilian squad. For those two games against South Korea and Japan, 13 of the players called by Calvancialotti play in England. That's pretty amazing, I think, including the whole midfield. I mean, the midfield, Casemiro, Lucas Paqueta, Bruno Guimares, Andre, Joao Gomes and Joel Linton. So that's basically the Premier League is going to represent Brazil in the next game.

Max Rushden (55:16)

Philippe, I'm sure you'd be the first to congratulate Cristiano Ronaldo on the news. He's become football's first billionaire. According to Bloomberg they said he earned more than 410 million between 2002 and 2023 when he joined Al Nassr in the Saudi Pro League. In 2022, became reportedly the highest paid player in football history with an annual salary of just 177 million pounds. His contract was due to end in June 2025. He signed a new two year deal reportedly worth more than 298 million pounds, which will keep him at the club before beyond his 42nd birthday. Gary says in light of the news of Cole Palmer's trademarking of the term cold Palmer for products including but not limited to, soaps, Christmas crackers and underwater vehicles, how excited should we be to see a potential fleet of NATO U boats emblazoned with Cole Palmer's face and branding, congregating in the Black Sea as his battalion of warships patrols the front lines of an imminent World War 3? Kind regards, thanks for the wonderful pods. Yes, Cole Palmer can now add the trademark term to a wide variety of products going to the BBC, including ice cream, toys, clothes, footballs and football boots. It also enables him to trademark a range of other eclectic products such as beard trimmers, underwater vehicles, mopeds and mouse mats should the need arise. What else do you need than a cold palm? You can buy two for one. A Cole Palmer mouse Matt and submarine. Yes, Johnny.

Johnny Liu (56:41)

You know, like Morgan Rogers claimed. You know, Morgan Rogers did the cold. He claims that he did the cold Palmer celebration first. He does, he does the key. He does the cold thing as well. So he claims ownership of that. And I wonder whether this is just. Is this going to end up in England's two number tens ending up in the High Court over a copyright issue.

Max Rushden (57:02)

Surely just in cars that can go underwater. That's how it's Rogers versus Palmer and the, you know, whoever wins that battle gets to sit on the bench when Jude Bellingham starts in the World Cup.

Johnny Liu (57:14)

It's very much Mr. Plough versus Ploughking.

Max Rushden (57:19)

Now, finally I mentioned that my AirPods were at Terminal 4, Perth Airport, and I can see where they are on find my AirPods. Thank you to David O' Doherty for telling me how you could do that. Anyway, Perth has come together. Paul Max and Team Paul from Perth here. I was listening to your latest podcast. I heard about the AirPods. Having done this myself in the past, I can understand your dilemma. I'd be happy to drop into Terminal 4, grab them on your behalf and post them back to you in Melbourne. I've been listening for a number of years. I feel this would be the least I could do for keeping me entertained three times a week. That's Paul. Okay, Barry. Ian says hi team. Long time listener, first time writer. I'm an artist living in Perth. I listen to the podcast every week while painting. My new studio is right beside Perth Airport. I could actually go and pick up Max's AirPods, send them back to him. I'd be happy to if Max can line it up with Qantas staff. I'll pop on over. I love Sunderland being part of the conversation again this season. Valiant effort by Jonathan and Barry to keep mentioning them during the long and painful absence from the top flight. Let's see if we can get those AirPods back. Hurrah the lads. That's Ian. Ian, Ed says. Huge fan of the pod Newcastle fan living in Perth. Please come and do a live show in Perth. I promised Barry and co an amazing night on the Blend. I'm more than happy to pick up your misplaced findable AirPods or whatever they're known these days. We'll ship to Melbourne free of charge. That's Ed. Sean. I'm not a football of Modric's or Rafael Leo's quality. I am from Perth. I can get your AirPods and send them cross country. Gianni, I'm in Perth. I'm flying to Melbourne at the end of the month. If Melbourne is where you are. I can bring over your headphones if that was serious. And Jack. Hey, mate. You want me to pick up your AirPods from Perth Airport? So there you've got all the offers. Who should I go to, Barry?

Barry Glendenning (58:55)

Well, Ian the Sunderland fan is the obvious candidate. The artist and Sunderland fan.

Max Rushden (59:03)

Who?

Barry Glendenning (59:04)

Ed. Newcastle fan. Can't be trusted. Okay, yeah, I'd go with Ian, but.

Max Rushden (59:10)

I mean they're all good, they're all generous.

Barry Glendenning (59:12)

What, Paulie and Ed, Sean, Gianni, Jack. It's very kind of them because let's face it, going to an airport to do anything for anyone, even if it's someone you know, is a massive pain in the ass. So they're going to do it for. Well, I suppose you're not really a stranger because they listen to you every week.

Johnny Liu (59:31)

Should you conduct interviews? Maybe like an interview process, Second interviews, Maybe an aptitude.

Max Rushden (59:36)

Should do a podcast series. We'll start. Well, originally, I'll send. I went for a job at the FA once, Johnny Management. Sort of like the graduate scheme at the FA.

Ewan Murray (59:46)

Right.

Max Rushden (59:46)

And it went from 20000 and we got. I got down to like the final 10 or 15. We didn't meet anyone from the FA because it was like a recruitment team in to work out if you'd be good at the FA or not. And I got, I got top marks in all the things to get down to the last three, except for the team working section where I spoke too much and didn't listen to anyone else. Hopefully I've learned to be a better listener in the. In the following 25 years.

Barry Glendenning (60:08)

The jokes write themselves.

Max Rushden (60:12)

Anyway, let's go with Ian and then if Ian fails, we'll go down the list. But thank you to everyone in Perth rallying together to reconnect me with my AirPods Pros. And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Johnny.

Philippe Auclair (60:24)

Thanks.

Max Rushden (60:25)

Thanks, Philippe.

Philippe Auclair (60:26)

Thank you, Max.

Max Rushden (60:28)

Thank you, Barry.

Ewan Murray (60:29)

Thank you.

Max Rushden (60:30)

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray with Joel Grove and our executive producer is Phil Maynard. We'll be back on Monday.

Philippe Auclair (60:48)

This is the Guardian.