Grimsby’s glory and Scottish sides slump in Europe – Football Weekly

Summary

Football Weekly – Grimsby's Glory and Scottish Sides' Slump in Europe

Date: August 28, 2025
Host: Max Rushden
Panel: Jonathan Wilson, Mark Langdon, Robyn Cowan
Guest: Ewan Murray (Scottish Football Correspondent)

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Overview

The episode dives deep into Grimsby Town’s shock Carabao Cup win over Manchester United on penalties, dissecting both the hilarious and harrowing elements for United. The panel then moves to the Scottish football scene, where both Rangers and Celtic endure European miseries, reflecting a broader identity crisis within both clubs. In the final section, the team previews the coming Premier League fixtures, discusses transfer sagas, and indulges in light banter about manager wedding dances and Oxford United struggles.

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Main Discussion Segments

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1. Grimsby’s Carabao Cup Triumph Over Manchester United

[01:21–24:03]

Key Points

• Grimsby 2–2 Manchester United (Grimsby win 12–11 on penalties):
  A historic result, as United lose to a fourth-tier side for the first time in the League Cup, after a marathon and rain-soaked penalty shootout.
• Grimsby’s Performance:
  • Dominant first half; were 2-0 up, had a controversial third ruled out.
  • Manager Dave Artell praised for his approach, keeping it light ("loved him just laughing through the penalties" - Max Rushden, [06:33]).
  • Grimsby fielded several players with top-level background who played with “a point to prove.”
• Manchester United’s Failings:
  • Defensive chaos, especially in set-pieces and transitions.
  • Structure and 3-4-2-1 system criticized by Jonathan Wilson:

    "Even on its own terms, the formation, the system is not working." ([08:54])

  • Manager Ruben Amorim seems lost, displaying little energy or presence on the touchline during penalties.
• Amorim’s Job and United’s Broader Crisis:
  • Panel debates whether to stick or twist with Amorim.
  • Mark Langdon:

    "Are you just backing the wrong one and he’s making significant changes... I personally wouldn't sack him just for a Cup defeat to Grimsby, but things do need to change somewhere." ([10:28])

  • Wilson questions United's recruitment, especially after spending £200m on forwards, and points out ongoing weak points, such as goalkeeper Onana’s penalty record.

    "You'd like you to score if it's Onana, I think is basically it." ([14:08])

  • The inflexibility of system and risk of losing a talented young player, Kobbie Mainoo, highlighted:

    “Manchester United really want to sacrifice Kobbie Mainoo on the altar of the Amarim faith, for which there is no evidence it is true.” ([19:31])

• Humorous moments:
  • Extended penalty shootout (“Won’t someone think of the parents of small children...” - Max Rushden, [02:23])
  • Weather-induced mishaps ("Reuben Amaring's laminated tactic sheet...just a kind of fidget spinner" - Robyn Cowan, [04:05])
  • The man vowing not to cut his hair until United win five games in a row.

Notable Quote

• On United’s shape:

  “It’s like a Victorian bandstand on very sort of rusty legs...They spent £200m on forwards to make themselves even worse.” – Jonathan Wilson ([15:02], [15:25])

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2. Scottish Football’s Week of Misery

[26:01–41:32]

Key Points

• Rangers and Celtic Both in Crisis:
  • Rangers: Out of Europe after hiding in Bruges, fans quickly turning on manager Russell Martin.

    "I can only laugh at how lamentable we are...Russell Martin insisted he was proud of his players for getting it back to 3-1." – Listener email, read by Max ([27:41]) "I cannot see a way, even in the medium term, that Russell Martin extricates himself from this situation." – Ewan Murray ([29:50])

  • Celtic: Knocked out on penalties by almost-unknown Kairat Almaty in UCL qualifiers, after squad was weakened by lack of summer investment.

    “Since Brendan's come back, they've seen beyond Scotland…To not at least have a squad which is at the same level as last season, as they are now, is worse. That's unacceptable if you're a Celtic fan.” – Ewan Murray ([36:54])

• Both Clubs’ Deeper Problems:
  • Rangers: Poor championship recruitment, defensive frailty, loan signings not up to scrutiny, manager dogmatic and perhaps defeated.

    “So many people speak about Martin’s philosophy, Martin’s system...Rangers are just so disorganized.” – Ewan Murray ([28:28])

  • Celtic: Criticism that the board lack ambition; supporters and Rodgers not aligned on transfer aims.

    “Increasingly getting to the point where Celtic and Brendan Rodgers are not compatible.” – Ewan Murray ([38:36])

• Prospects for Others:
  Hearts cited as the best-situated outsider to capitalize, thanks to investment from Tony Bloom, though both panel and Ewan think major change is still distant.
• Light-hearted:
  • Max jokes Rangers-Celtic fans might come together in mutual misery ([27:10])
  • Mis-tagged “retrieval practices in mathematics” question, causing laughs ([41:05])

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3. Premier League Preview and Miscellaneous

[41:41–58:42]

Key Matches

• Liverpool vs Arsenal:
  • Both teams have unsettled starts—Arsenal might be without Saka and Ødegaard; opportunity for Eberechi Eze to shine.
  • Mark Langdon:

    “Going to Anfield in August is very different to…April if the title was on the line…I wouldn’t be surprised if this one finished in a draw.” ([43:02])

• Nottingham Forest v West Ham:
  • West Ham “klaxon of doom” blaring; Bowen at odds with fans, defensive calamities abound.
  • Mark:

    “When a fan base is angry, it becomes angry at everything.” ([47:55])

• Man City v Brighton:
  • Brighton look lively but need to finish off games; City aim to rebound from Spurs loss.
  • Robin:

    “Brighton…had better xG in their first two games…but they don’t seem to hang on…just what sort of Manchester City team turns up?” ([49:54])

• Other Notables:
  • Sunderland’s start to life in the Premier League; importance of quick points ([50:48])
  • Spurs' title challenge, Thomas Frank’s impressive start amid transfer frustrations ([52:36])

Fun and Light-Hearted Bits

• Wilson’s Book Plug:
  • Jonathan Wilson humorously touts his new World Cup tome as possibly “the greatest book ever written.”

    “This will single handedly make literacy cool again.” – Jonathan Wilson ([56:12])

  • Panel jokes about wedding dance videos and 19th-century Russian choreography ([57:32])
• Oxford United Minute:
  • Robin’s update on Oxford’s grim start and management under Gary Rowett.

    “We didn’t hit anything.” ([54:44])

  • Zen acceptance of their status:

    “Lowest budget in the league…in Gary we trust.” ([55:01])

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On United’s System:
  “Even on its own terms, the formation, the system is not working.” – Jonathan Wilson ([08:54])

• On the Penalty Shootout:
  “Won’t someone think of the parents of small children when they keep scoring these penalties?” – Max Rushden ([02:23])

• On Managerial Dogmatism:
  “Manchester United really want to sacrifice Kobbie Mainoo on the altar of the Amarim faith, for which there is no evidence it is true.” – Jonathan Wilson ([19:31])

• On Scottish Football’s Mood:
  “I don’t remember a time when there is collective dismay and anger the way there is just now…both Celtic and Rangers fans are utterly furious.” – Ewan Murray ([27:10])

• On Living Through a Footballing Crisis:
  “When a fan base is angry, it becomes angry at everything.” – Mark Langdon ([47:55])

• On New Book Promotion:
  “I don’t want to oversell it, but I think it might be the Greatest book ever written.” – Jonathan Wilson ([56:08])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:21] – Grimsby v Man United: match reaction, shootout, Amorim, United’s malaise
• [08:54] – Jonathan Wilson’s tactical breakdown of United’s failings
• [13:22] – Extended discussion of United’s squad-building and goalkeeper flaws
• [26:01] – Scottish Football: Ewan Murray on Rangers and Celtic’s European miseries
• [31:21] – Russell Martin’s Rangers – what’s gone wrong
• [34:27] – Celtic’s transfer failings and European exit
• [43:02] – Liverpool v Arsenal preview
• [47:01] – Forest v West Ham, crisis talk
• [49:54] – City v Brighton preview
• [54:44] – Oxford United minute, Wilson’s book chat
• [56:08] – Jonathan Wilson promotes his new book, banter about his wedding dance

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Conclusion

A classic Football Weekly: sharp analysis, rampant humor, and a strong sense of football’s quirks from the sublime (Grimsby’s cup heroics, memeable managers) to the ridiculous (managerial wedding dances). Essential listening for fans of both top-tier drama and lower-league romance, underpinned by the Guardian’s journalistic flair and self-effacing panel chemistry.

Transcript

[Max Rushden]

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[Max Rushden]

Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Manchester United lose to Grimsby Town in the Carabao cup on penalties. So many penalties, so much rain. Eventually, Brian and Bumo, second time around, hit the bar and that was that. Grimsby were brilliant. Amraam's men were lucky to get to penalties. Grimsby, two up in a dominant first half, were unlucky to have a third ruled out before Manchester United showed some resolve in the last 15 minutes. Ruben Amarim says something has to change. You wonder exactly what that could be. From crisis to existential angst. Fitbar. With Rangers and Celtic trying to outdo each other night after night, Ewan Murray joins us against his will. And then a Premier League preview. Including Liverpool, Arsenal. Jonathan Wilson's written a book. Thank goodness we needed another one. He'll try and sell it to us. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Jonathan Wilson. Welcome.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Thank you. How you doing?

[Max Rushden]

Congrat. Congratulations on writing a book.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

We'll talk about it soon. From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon. Hello.

[Mark Langdon]

Hi, Max.

[Max Rushden]

And welcome. Robin Cowan.

[Robin Cowan]

Good morning, Max.

[Max Rushden]

There is only one place to start and that is Grimsby. Grimsby 2, Manchester United 2 in the second round of the Carabao Cup. Grimsby winning 1211 on penalties. Won't someone think of the parents of small children when they keep scoring these penalties? United never lost to a fourth tier side in the League Cup. Moby Duck says. Does this show Man United can beat anyone in League 2. I mean, the Shootout Robin was hilarious, wasn't it? Because you felt like it would never, ever end.

[Robin Cowan]

It did, yeah. There's been a real contrast, hasn't there, over the Carabao Cup? Because we. I would get to it, I'm sure, but the Sheffield Wednesday leads one was like the complete opposite. No, it was. It was ridiculous. I mean, what. It was a fantastic game, wasn't it? Cup tie, obviously, excluding those of Manchester United persuasion. You're absolutely right. You said in your intro, Grimsby really should have won it, really, in normal time, shouldn't they? They missed a hat load of chances, had a goal rolled out for which I know is a bit contentious. There's a few people saying that that possibly shouldn't have been. And then. Yes. And then the rain. Oh, the rain. And Reuben Amaring's laminated tactic sheet. And that was. That was my first thought, was I wouldn't have to laminate things if I was still in Lisbon. And that's possibly, you know, I think possibly the only thing keeping him there is that payout, isn't it? Because I just. He just looks like he's hating every single second and it's just. It's crazy.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. I mean, it was so wet that you would have. I mean, I. Elite sports people, maybe they don't feel the same, but I didn't think those, the little tactics. Things were a bit small, weren't they, on the laminate? Was he sort of moving them around like. It just. It was hard to get them in your fingers when it was so wet.

[Robin Cowan]

It was almost like a. It was like a sort of fidget spinner almost. It wasn't to do with anything. It was just to kind of keep him calm, maybe. Yeah, it was. No, just wonderful cup time, wasn't it? Just loads of. I mean, that's going to be a meme. It's. It's an instant classic.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, I, I agree. What did you make of it, Mark?

[Mark Langdon]

Well, the Robin mentioned memes and it's all that Mick McCarthy one, isn't it? Where you sort of ask, you know, they can't get any worse, can they, Mick? And he says they can. And it just feels like Manchester United are stuck in. In this sort of never ending sort of downward spiral at the moment. Should. Maybe we should start with Grimsby and just how great they were as a, you know, team from the fourth tier to, I think, outplay Manchester United for. It's some effort, even if it was a change United team and, you know, they're not in a good Space. But it comes back to something you said a few weeks ago. Max, you talking sense around kind of players from these sort of lower leagues have been really good. At one stage they were the best in their class. The best. You know, Pim for instance, I think he played for England under 20s or certainly around England junior teams. But he's only 6 4. So that makes it hard I think for him to go on and become kind of maybe as successful as he would have hoped to have been when, when he was a junior. Warren spent more than a decade at Manchester United. Vernon was had a trials with AC Milan. McEachern was at Chelsea. So you know, these players have, you know, been around sort of top levels previously. And we just felt like they were inspired and wanted at a point to prove and really did prove it. You know there were Opportun and Burns. Mr. A big one to make it three nil as well. But I thought Warren definitely felt like, you know, so physical and I mean Seshko was in his pocket really for, for most of that game. We maybe get onto him later and how was he took the 10th Manchester.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, we'll get into it. We'll go through each player on when they took a penalty. So we'll get to Sesko by about hour two.

[Mark Langdon]

Yeah, but I thought McEachern was very good. And it wasn't even necessarily Grimsby's first choice team either. They made a couple of changes from the weekend. Yeah, I mean a shameful night for Manchester United but a great one for Grimsby and their manager Dave Artel.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, who was loving it, wasn't it? Actually the Barry says how bad is it for United when Dave Artel of Grimsby is giving a quasi pep. So, so good post match interview. So Bartel said, look, they're an unbelievable team, Manchester United. They've got an unbelievable manager and they're on the right track. You can see that. And I have to say, I mean he didn't put a foot wrong Dave Artell yesterday and he was brilliant. I loved him just laughing through the penalties because obviously it sort of didn't matter. But it did. But I don't think I'd like to ask him where can you see this man United team are on the right track. Wilson. Because the biggest surprise of this game was so many times Grimsby just kind of threw like Grimsby played through United way more than United played through Grimsby.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Oh yeah. I mean every counter attack they look dangerous. Every set play they look dangerous. And I guess you'd say for a fourth flight team to beat a Top flight team, set plays often somewhere where they can challenge them. But we've seen United really struggle with set plays both against Fulham and against Arsenal well and constantly last season. They're really bad at defending in swingers maybe because they've made two changes to the back three. Maybe that's semi understandable, but it's not really acceptable. But I think the bigger problem or the more sort of long term problem is that shape. The one advantage I think of the 3421 is that you should always have the back three with two players sitting in front creating that sort of 32 shape which is the basis of all defending against the counter attack. Almost every team does that. A 32 it goes 100 years ago when the WM comes in, it gives you that 32 shape. And it is proved over 100 years the best way of dealing with counters Guardiola's sides. They try and have five men behind the ball at all times and the five will be in roughly that three two shape. How you create that, whether it's one full back goes up and the other shuffle across, whether it's John Stone stepping in midfield, whether it's a fullback stepping in alongside the holding midfield to create the 3:2, that's the basis of it. The big advantage a 3:4:2:1 should give you is you should have a solid block and you should have very least be hard to play through. And they're dead easy to play through. So even on its own terms, the formation, the system is not working.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. And Robin, I mean, you know, with all due respect and praise to Grimsby, it's Grimsby, for goodness sake.

[Robin Cowan]

Yeah. No, I mean there's no doubt about it. They should be beating Grimsby, shouldn't they? I mean, pretty much, you know, any team that's higher than Grimsby should be beaten. I mean it's just, I think that the, the demise of Manchester United, it's kind of, it's still, it's still shocking because I think even just a couple of years ago they would have made hard work of it, but they would have got through and would have criticized how poor Manchester United were. But they, you know, they would have got through this. Now, I mean I, I actually don't know where they go from here. People were sort of really grasping for, for green shoots of recovery in the first couple of games of the season.

[Max Rushden]

I mean they have played okay in those first couple of games, but you know, they are what they got. One point. I mean, Amara Martin said, I think this is a, is a little bit the limit. He didn't say totally. This is the limit. Like, it could get worse. Something has to change in this moment. We need to focus on the weekend. Then we have time to think. Everything was wrong the way we started the game. We were not even here when everything is so important in our club, everything that happened, it's a problem in our club. We should do so much better. I just have to say sorry to our fans after the game, he said, I felt my players spoke really loud today about what they want. Like, what do you think, Mark? I mean, do you. It's never felt good with Amaram there. Like he came and lots of people say he came at a bad time. He did. He turned up in November. No preseason. Changed the shape without the personnel.

[Mark Langdon]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Well, you.

[Mark Langdon]

You say that the reason for sticking with him is that at some stage you have to stick with something that seems to be the sort of. I don't even know if that is logic, but that seems to be the. The behind. You know, we just, we. We need to bat something. But like, you know, what if you're just backing the wrong one and he's making significant changes and has been allowed to make those. Those changes, just like Eric Ten Hag was. So if you do get rid of him and then you bring in a coach that actually doesn't believe in wing backs and you go on, we've just bought Dorgo and we're trying to build around whatever it is they're trying to build around. You're starting again. I. I personally wouldn't sack him on the back of just a Cup defeat to Grimsby. And I think you do have to give him more of this season with his team to prove that he's not the right person or is the right person. But things do need to change somewhere. I mean, I can't. It doesn't make any sense to me to be so wedded to one formation. No matter what else is going on. I think you have a philosophy in a way that you want to play, but I don't. So to me that you're just limiting yourself. If you only like Mason Mount came on and was playing, I think left wing back when it became a mess, really. Maybe it was that sort of tactics board and people didn't quite understand, but I think Mason Mount was playing left wing back. I don't understand that. For example, whatever midfield he tries doesn't work. I mean, Ugarte, Mainu, some people think that. That it should be Manchester United sort of two in front and should be more solid than say Casemiro and Fernandez. But I mean it was no more, it was no better than anything we've seen previously. I didn't like the way. I don't know if I'm becoming a proper football man here, but I didn't like the way that he hid in the penalty shootout and wasn't with the rest of his staff and wasn't fronting up as a leader. I don't think mattered for the end result. But the optics of that don't look great when you're sort of sat there in the dugout on your arm.

[Max Rushden]

He didn't realize he'd be there for two hours.

[Mark Langdon]

No, no, but it just. It doesn't feel amazing, that's for sure. But the United fans have don't even really turn on ten half, did they? And they still seem to be backing Amarim as well. I don't know if they're doing that out of just blind loyalty to the club, but the match going fan just hasn't turned really on the team or the manager at any stage during this sort of spiral.

[Max Rushden]

But I wonder, Wilson, if they are still more unhappy with people above them. Simon says, you know, Amarim is clearly struggling. Does there need to be more focus on Jason Wilcox or just United's recruitment? How they have such a bad midfield and. And goalkeeper.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah, I mean where do you start? But yes, the recruitment is clearly a problem at they don't have a good goalkeeper. I mean it's a minor. Well, no, it's actually quite major in the context of last night. How weak of Anana's wrists he got hands to. I think four penalties. One of them he just about pushed onto the bar. But even that, okay, it's a good save. If he's got strong wrists he doesn't have to hit the bar, just bounces clear. The other three go in. That seems. I know sometimes a shot is so hard or hits the wrong bit of the hand or something, there's nothing you can do about it. Four times the same penalty shooter. It seems like a pattern and it's not the first time we've seen it with Inanna.

[Max Rushden]

Does that mean the penalty taker on his drink bottle should have just kick it at Inanna's hand? That is.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Well hit the target. You'd like you to score if it's Inanna, I think is basically it. So I was just thinking of if they did have a drinks bottle and then that amount of rainwater is being washed out to sea and it's rather than the message in a bottle, a message on A bottle. It'll wash up in some Pacific island in 20 years and it'll say something like, bruno Fernandes, stand still, or whatever. So recruitment clearly is a problem because I don't think the metaphor actually works. But let's go with it, because it's what is often used in football that you have to start with the foundation. You don't build a house by putting the roof on first. And as I said, I don't think it does hold as a metaphor, but the fact they have just built this incredibly expensive roof and it's not just no foundations, there's not even any walls. It's just sort of a roof suspended.

[Max Rushden]

In the middle of nowhere.

[Jonathan Wilson]

It's like a Victorian bandstand on very sort of rusty legs. And to accommodate Cunha and Burmo and Cesko, they've had to take two of the players who played quite well last season, Bruno Fernandes and Amogello, and put them in different roles that don't seem to suit them particularly well. So, Bizarrely, they spent 200 million pounds on forwards to make themselves even worse.

[Max Rushden]

We thought they couldn't make the squad.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Class fans, and yet somehow, fair play, they've achieved it. But there's also. I get Marc's point about you've got to give him time, but there's a massive danger of doing that because why are you giving him time? What are you thinking is going to happen? You're showing faith. It is faith. There's no evidence it's faith. This will come good. This is somebody who. Well, 10 months in the job, he hasn't won two league games in a row yet.

[Max Rushden]

Is that right?

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah. I don't think there's been any sign.

[Max Rushden]

There is that guy. Sorry, There is that guy saying, you know, I'm not going to cut my hair till I win five games in a row.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Start with two, mate.

[Max Rushden]

And obviously his hair has got so ridiculous. But then someone tweeted yesterday, this guy's going to be the first person to die from having too much hair. It's a funny line. Sorry, I interrupted you.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So he will only play this. 3, 4, 2, 1. I've got reservations about that as a system. Anyway. I think for a team that should have the ball, you know, United are not Crystal, but Crystal Palace. It works really well because they don't need the ball. They play without the ball. They're really effective at doing so. Also, we've got the right players for it that Wharton and Will Hughes recently back in midfield, you've got one who's really good at picking passes, one who's all energy, wins the ball back. You then got two number tens. I mean, okay, Ezra leaving has caused problems, but yeah, maybe Yomi Pinot can do that. But they've got basically two sixes and two tens in midfield and that works. And because that's base of a three and a two, you know that team counters against you, you're solid. So that means your wing backs can play high up. Look at Sunday, where does their goal come from? Comes from Tarek Mitchell getting down the left. His cross is cleared, but then Wharton pings it straight out to the right and Daniel Munoz is in space because the whole defense has been dragged over by Mitchell. He's got time to measure his cross and Sar scores. So for palace it works. They got the players and they're comfortable playing without the ball. They're mid table side, so playing reactive counter attacking football is fine for them. Manchester United, because of their stature, because of their tradition, can't do that. So I'm not sure how you ever play 3, 4, 2, 1 when you're expecting to have the ball because so much creativity comes down to the 2 number tens. But then look at who they're trying to play in the deeper midfield. And the Casemiro of five years ago possibly could have done it even then. I'm not sure he quite had the energy, the stamina, the dynamism to do it at Premier League level. Possibly. Casemiro now certainly can't. Agate just doesn't look good enough to do it. Bruno Fernandes doesn't have a defensive capability, so you've got to have somebody alongside him who can play that with real aggression. I mean, basically you need N' Golo Kante alongside him. N' Golo Kante did play in the one side that ever won the Premier League, playing the 3, 4, 2, 1, which was Conte's Chelsea turn 16 17. But he was playing alongside either Matic or Ces Fabregas. So again, either a player who's really good at holding his position, tactically, very intelligent spreading the ball, or one of the best passes of ball we've ever seen in the Premier League. You need very specific players and cobbling that together with the offshoots of six different Manchester United managers is really hard. So I don't think the system is right anyway. Even if everything is put in place and he has time and he can build a squad to do that, but also the cost of taking a squad, that for all it was a shambles and for all it was patched together from loads of different ideas, the one thing that unified it was it couldn't play. 3, 4, 2, 1. So you got to overhaul the entire squad. 20 players, 25 players, you got to overhaul. Enormous cost because they're really bad at selling players. You've got no PSR headroom to do that. So that's a really difficult thing to do. And the cost of doing that is you're going to lose Kobbie Mane, you're going to lose the best young player you've brought through in a decade because he doesn't fit in that system. Manchester United really want to sacrifice Kobbie Mainoo on the altar of the Amarim faith, for which there is no evidence it is true. Amarim has not done a miracle. He has not turned water into oil, he has not raised Lazarus, he has not walked on water.

[Max Rushden]

I mean, to be honest, he did sit in water yesterday.

[Jonathan Wilson]

But even that, you know, the mark talks about the optics are sitting in the dugout that just says a man, just a man with no faith, yet he has no faith in his squad. And if you are going to be a preacher, you know, this messianic figure, you know, pulling people along to your faith, your dogma, you have to look like you believe it yourself. And you contrast that with say, and this is not particularly messianic figure or charismatic figure, but Rafa Benitez in the Liverpool Chelsea semi final, Champions League semi final. And when the penalty started, then when he was against Mourinho and he, you know, obviously Rafa is very conscious of Mourinho's mind games, his attempts against psychological age. What does Benitez do? He sits down cross legged on the side of the pitch and looks like the calmest man in the stadium. And that just, it shouldn't make a difference. But I think that radiates belief of, well, the manager just thinks we're going to win. The manager is so calm. He's sort of doing some sort of Zen pose.

[Max Rushden]

Yoda.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah, he's getting his morning yoga in early rather than sitting on the bench rocking back and forth as the lane lashes down around you and you know, the angels weeping for the decline of Manchester United.

[Max Rushden]

Robin.

[Robin Cowan]

I think there is something in that definitely because, I mean, I don't know how he is with the players in the dressing room or on the training ground. We, we don't know. But the image he projects to us are just a very sad, depressed individual. And I just don't think that's, that's Healthy for the players. My other point was just going to be that system, tactics, whatever. And he wants to. You obviously need sort of square pegs in square holes, but how about a bit of coaching, you know, and this is. No way am I saying Reuben Amering is the problem at Manchester United. You know, I think the last sort of decade has illustrated that. But it's like, as Wilson just said, they're going to lose Kobbie Mainoo maybe. And that's. That's an absolute. It's just a tragedy and just like, why don't you try and teach him to do what you'd like him to do instead of, you know, recruiting more.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. They've got Burnley at the weekend at home. I mean, it. That feels suddenly just. The absolute pressure on that game is, is. Is enormous. Elsewhere in the. The Carabao Cup, Portvale had a good win at Birmingham. Cambridge United of course, beat Charlton in the presenter producer Derby Football Weekly Derby to earn a trip to Fulham to which Derek says is Fulham Cambridge in the next round. The poshest tie possible. How dare you. Brighton won six nil at Oxford. We'll do an Oxford minute part three, Robin. Everton won another game at Hill Dickinson. Sheffield Wednesday getting past leads on penalties is. Is great. Robin, you want to say that was the. It was the reverse penalty shootout, wasn't it? Was over in like 10 seconds.

[Robin Cowan]

Well, because Leeds missed all of them. It was 3 nil and all done. So, yeah, I mean, wonderful for Shefford Wednesday. And I know Barry Glendenning isn't here, but he was the always the one to say when you're protesting an owner, you need to do it properly. And they did it properly, didn't they? They didn't come in in the 10th minute or whatever. They weren't there. Sheffield Wednesday fans. It was like an empty stadium and instead they said they'll donate the. The ticket price to Sheffield Children's Hospital. So it's just, you know, just a great gesture all round. The only thing I was going to say is that maybe I don't know what the owner was. I mean, she probably doesn't care, but. But they obviously won without supporters. It's like, well, right, yeah, don't need you anyway. But I just want to say I'm hugely admirable because also I saw that apparently you. You do sort of miss out on points to get away tickets if you don't go to those games. So, you know, this is proper sacrifice. So, yeah, well done to the Sheffield Wednesday fans.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, well done. Some rumors of John Texter being interested. I don't know if that is. I mean obviously chance theory not being there is good. I don't know if John Texter coming in is good, but they just need a new owner, don't they? Of the third round ties the fun ones, Lincoln, Chelsea, Doncaster going to Spurs, Huddersfield hosting man City, Bradford going to the holders Newcastle, Barnsley hosting Brighton and Portvale hosting Arsenal. So some possible upsets there. Anyway, that'll do for part one. You and Murray joins us for part two for more misery as we work out who's worse, Celtic or Rangers. Well look, we know Rangers are worse than Celtic. You take my point.

[Mark Langdon]

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[Mark Langdon]

Foreign.

[Max Rushden]

To Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly we have a live show on 11 September the Troxy in London. Jonathan Wilson, Nikki Bandini, Johnny Liu, we've already signed up some cameos. Tickets can be purchased from the guardian.com footballweeklylive we are live streaming it around the world. We could do with some real ultras stepping up if you want to fill the top tier. You know we it's I think the capacity is about the average attendance of Altrincham. We haven't hit it yet and you owe us, you bastards. So come and watch us. We have. We have big plans. The halftime show sounds very good and one set piece which ultimately involves a video of me that I don't really want broadcast but it is very funny. Anyway, come along please. Theguardian.com FootballWeeklyLive Charlie says, has anyone had a worse week than Scotland's culture efficient Doom says is this the worst week for Scottish football since the last week of July 1966? And Clayton says it seems a cruel and unusual punishment to make you and Murray do Fitbar Corner this week. Welcome Ewan. How are You?

[Ewan Murray]

Oh, on the contrary, I quite enjoy this stuff.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, well, you are neither a Ranger or a Celtic band. I guess who's. Who's had a worse. I mean, like, you can choose you and I don't know, like recency bias. I. I was also watching the Man United game and I put in the group, you know, have a look at the halftime score in Bruges. You're like, wow, I don't know. Rangers seem to be going worse than Celtic, even though Celtic are out of the Champions League on penalties. To a team I didn't. Had not heard of until this week. So where do you want to start?

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah, to Charlie's point about the coefficient. I mean, it's not over yet. Aberdeen and the Hibs have still got to play, so it could yet get.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Worse.

[Ewan Murray]

After this goes out. I think on balance, Rangers, yes, but I mean, I don't remember the way Glasgow works. You know, ebb and flow, yin and yang with football routinely, one set of supporters is happy and one is outraged, and there's not very much in the middle. Occasionally both of them are reasonably happy about something. I don't remember a time when there is collective dismay and anger the way there is just now, for different reasons. But both Celtic and Angels fans are utterly furious.

[Max Rushden]

Maybe it could bring that. It could bring the city together. It could be harmonious. They could go to old firm games, you know, sit next to each other arm in arm.

[Ewan Murray]

Possibly that games on Sunday, we won't see that. No, it won't go that far. And I also don't remember. I've been racking my brains for a managerial stint that seems as quickly as doomed as Russell Martin does it at Rangers. I thought of Moyes, of Man United, but I think even he got a little more leeway and grace. So, yes, it's interesting times.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. Stephen says. As a Rangers fan, my team's complete and utter incompetence has reached a point where I can only laugh at how lamentable we are. I'm guessing you'll primarily talk about Celtic being beaten by Kyrat. I just want to emphasize to your audience just how rubbish Rangers are under Russell Martin in the first leg against Bruges with a 30 down after 20 minutes in the post match presser, Russell, turning to David Brent, insisted he was proud of his players for getting it back to 3 1. What happens next? Bruce score after five minutes. Max Aarons, who should never be starting ahead of our club captain and legend James Tavernier, gets sent off three minutes later. It boggles the Mind. Yeah. Five zero then at halftime isn't ideal. So what have you made of Russell Martin? He's an interesting character. Right. And he clearly divides opinion, but sort of since arriving in the Premier League with Southampton, he. It has been all bad.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah. And it's continuing that way. A lot of focus. There's. There's two interesting things to me. One, the level of kind of disdain Rangers fans had forum from the outset, which is unusual. Normally they would. They're so desperate for success at Rangers. They would give someone a chance and almost over support them. But they were very, very cool on Martin from the. From the outset. And that's obviously only got worse as the weeks and the games have gone by. I mean touching on the game at Bruges, it was 50 at halftime. It could and should have been more. They were all over the place. And the other point is so many people speak about Martin's philosophy, Martin's system, Martin's desired way of playing. Well, that's one thing. But Rangers are just so disorganized. They are defensively horrendous. I mean it is kid stuff. So I think no matter what you're doing, your system or your idealism is around football, you cannot be such a mess at the back. And that was shown up. It'll be shown up by a decent team. Has been shown up by, you know, the field to beat Dundee and Marilyn and Motherwell in the Scottish top flight. Never mind when they play a decent team in Bruges and they just. They horribly exposed that. And I, I mean it. So. So early on it seems ludicrous, but I cannot see a way even in the medium term that Russell Martin extricates himself from. From this situation.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. And like, because after the first game, didn't he sort of throw half the team under the bus? Which seemed an interesting move.

[Ewan Murray]

Yes, he did it. They had a pre season game against. I think it was Middlesbrough. I might be wrong with that. But he had a go at the way certain players warmed up in this pre season game. That's where it kind of started. Then he had a real volley at them again. You're right in saying that the game at the game of Motherwell. But I mean you look first at the management and the structure of the club. They have signed players, they've gone down a route that Rangers have tried before and it hasn't worked. Which is largely players from England. Largely basically championship players from England. The Rangers have tried this before and it's failed. You could swap the players they have now for Previous guys from the same domain. They don't seem to get the intensity of the club. They don't seem to understand what it takes to play for Rangers. I think people at the club think it would be easier than it is for these players to assimilate. I mean, three of the back four last night were lone players as well. That's not where Rangers should be as a club. And basically you have a team which as I said, is. I mean, their defensive frailty has to be seen to be believed. But they're slow, they are passive, they're not athletic, they're not quick, they're not aggressive. The opposite of what you would want, I would suggest, from a football team. And as I say, the level of disdain and dismay towards Martin, I'm really not sure how he pulls himself out of this, including because they play Celtic on Sunday. And it's very, very hard. Notwithstanding Celtics problems, which we will come on to, it's very hard to make a case for Rangers in their current state beating Celtic.

[Max Rushden]

Do you think Wilson, Russell Martin is a. You know, he has been good at times, right. And we were talking about Amarim and his sort of dogmat dogma, right. And it's a different dogma. And you know, I suppose Russell Martin can say for his faith. Well, there's some evidence here that it worked at one point and it worked.

[Jonathan Wilson]

In that he took Southampton up from the championship. Even that was a bit of an odd season that Sunderland beaten five nil or five one just before they then went on a 20 odd game unbeaten run. So they were never 100% convincing even that season. But I think the Premier League is really, really difficult. I think we maybe underestimate how hard it is. And the truth is that you can't play the same way for 10 games in a row because you've got 19 of the best minds in the football world backed up with massive data analysis teams working out where are the weaknesses, what can we do to stop them, how can we exploit the little flaws they've got? And I don't think it took 10 games with Russell Martin. I think Postecoglou took 10 games. And what might be all right to win in the championship or at a league elsewhere, the Premier League is it's every single game is hard. And I think what you see, and I think what we see in Russell Martin is his confidence or his people's confidence in him was so battered by what happened in the Premier League that because his next job is in Scotland where there's at least sort of an awareness of what's happened in the Premier League. He's starting from a low base. If he'd gone to Denmark or Belgium or somewhere where people maybe haven't focused quite as closely on how he failed, or where people might even be be sort of grateful that here's a Premier League manager coming to our league. I mean, didn't work for Scott Parker in Belgium. Admittedly, maybe you then do have a chance to rebuild. But going to. To Glasgow, everybody knows what a failure he was and they're just waiting for him to fail in the same way. And it's happened immediately.

[Ewan Murray]

Yeah, he's seen as a fantasist, Jonathan, isn't he? He's seen as a guy who wants to implement a style of football which is just impossible. That's how probably, possibly unfair, but that is how he is now portrayed.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair. Yeah.

[Max Rushden]

Sorry, Ewan, shouldn't it be possible against the other teams in the Scottish Premiership? Right, because Wilson's saying the Premier League is hard, but, like, there are. He's drawn three games that Rangers just should win. Right.

[Ewan Murray]

100%. And that's why he doesn't have any leeway with supporters. I mean, he speaks about pain and about process, which seemed to me like code for give me more time here. But no one would dispute a new manager at a club which needs a big overhaul, might need a bit of time to do exactly what they want to do. But in the process, you have to beat Dundee, you have to beat Mullerwell and you have to beat St Marin. There's no excuse, not really just for the results, but for how completely disorganized Rangers have looked. And then when you, as I say, you play a decent team in Europe, the whole thing just gets amplified. So he's found himself, you know, in that invidious position of having no wriggle room whatsoever so early on in his job.

[Max Rushden]

And so Celtic then, you know, they had a really good Champions League last year. Like, the new system worked for them. They got through to that playoff, didn't they? That's really good games this time. They're out and they were knocked out. I mean, had you heard of Kai Rats, Ewan?

[Ewan Murray]

I had. I can't. I don't know why, but I had. Yes. They must have played someone else on my radar.

[Max Rushden]

Fair enough. You're a better football brain than I am not. No, but look, they went out on penalty. I mean, Celtic must have just looked at that draw like. And like, you shouldn't be complacent. But fans, players, the manager, everyone must have thought, right, we're through here. Like this is, this is done before the game happened.

[Ewan Murray]

No, the fans certainly didn't. And really okay, no, because, because there's been this general concern and noise and quite legitimately so about the fact they haven't supplemented their squad since January actually when they lost Kyogo, who was their main center forward to the Reign. I know he's now go back to Birmingham, but they lost Kyogo. So they needed a center forward. They then they brought in Jota, Portuguese white player, got a bad injury. They then sold Nicholas Kuhn to Como. That's a lot of attacking threat to count. The Celtic team, they knew they had a Champions League playoff game and they haven't added to the squad. And there's been audible disquiet from Brendan Rodgers, even more audible disquiet from Celtic supporters. And listen, I would be the first one to say that sometimes Celtics fans can come over as entitled and spoiled, but in this case they've completely got a point. I mean Celtic, since Brendan's come back, they've seen beyond Scotland. They were decent, the Champions League, although the results didn't really show it in his first season back, they were very, very good. Last season. How many times was he on here talking about how well they did in the Champions League. They should have beaten Bayern Munich in that playoff round. So they have a platform there and something to build from and they've wasted it.

[Max Rushden]

Why? Why haven't they invested?

[Ewan Murray]

Well, this goes back to. It's quite a consistent age old thing with Celtic. They don't seem to want to spend big despite having tens of millions, probably 100 million in the bank. I think as a club we're possibly stuck between knowing they are dominant in Scotland and raising a level spend a bit more that they think can make a difference in Europe. And I understand them being stuck in that position, but there's no excuse given the players they've lost for not at least having a squad which is at the same level of last season as they are now. It's worse. And I think that's, that's unacceptable if you're, if you're a Celtic fan.

[Mark Langdon]

Yes, Matt, you know, I was just going to ask. I mean there have definitely been some Celtic fans that have just said, well Brendan Rodgers wasted sort of previous money and that there's been sort of nervousness around spending. I mean is, is that fair as well?

[Ewan Murray]

It's a fair criticism in the players they spot last summer. Bernardo, trustee Engels and sorry exactly at 9 million pounds, they have not made nearly enough impact in the, in the team. I think that's fair enough. Brendan will argue that they, and he has argued they supplemented the squad which helped competition in the squad and that they are development type players who you can make better. I think the truth is it's always been a Brendan Rogers weakness. I think signing players, I think he's very, very good at certain things. I think identification is, signing of players is not a strong suit. So that is a valid criticism. But you know, essentially that I think we're increasingly getting to the point where Celtic and Brendan Rodgers are not compatible. They're not aligned when it comes to whatever transfer policy they want to embark on. And we've seen that this summer, I mean Celtic, they will now sign three or four players before the end of the window, which actually will just annoy their supporters even more because they'll say we could have done this weeks ago. I mean, they didn't even have a backup left back for these playoff games. They end up shuffling people all over the place when Kieran Tierney can't finish a game. So the whole thing is kind of muddled and it's going to get to a point. I mean, Brendan's out of contract next summer. I think as we stand now, there must be zero chance that he's inclined to hang around and it's going to go to this kind of unsatisfactory ending, which as I say, I think is a shame given the great strides they made in European football last season.

[Max Rushden]

Ange back.

[Ewan Murray]

Oh, Celtic would love that, definitely. I mean, so many of Celtics team touches of Mark's point actually are still Ange players. You know, Carter Vickers at the back, Hatati in midfield. Kyogo was a main man up front until January. You know, postecoglou came in and I thought a key advantage of Postecoglou, apart from the fact that he was an excellent coach who could succeed in Scotland, was he knew a market that Celtic could really benefit from. And the Japanese played influence at Celtic. Yeah, these players couldn't have gone to Premier League, for example, and had anything like that impact. But it was a material benefit to Celtic to sign these Japanese players. Well, most of them, they had a couple who haven't worked, but mostly it was a real, real success for Celtic. So, yeah, I mean Celtic, I'm sure we'd love him back, but I suspect he'll have other offers. I also suspect he's very much the kind of guy that doesn't go back.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah, possibly from our Friends at the sweeper pod. Kairat Almaty made history by becoming the easternmost club to ever reach the Champions League group league phase tonight. Yeah, it was three and a half thousand miles for Celtic to travel. So some big old trips there does that. Could Hearts, could they what? Seven points from nine. They've got this investment from Tony Bloom. Could they possibly take advantage of this crisis? It'd be amazing to see a team that isn't rangel Celtic win the. The top flight.

[Ewan Murray]

I hope so. Well, that's certainly Tony Bloom's medium term aim, isn't it? Yeah. If you're a supporter of Hearts, which I obviously am, you hope that advantage can be taken off of the state of flux that Celtic Avengers are in. I think that'll be a longer term process, to be perfectly honest. You know, Celtic will spend money and strengthen and I expect we'll win the league again. The Ranger situation I think is more interesting that. It depends how long that rumble is on for, to be honest. As I said, I can't. I feel bad saying it genuinely, but I really can't see Russell Martin lasting that long. So on the basis they improve that and again spend some money, they could, they could sort themselves out. Possibly not before January, but I think Celtic have enough. Well, I'm pretty confident Celtic have enough domestically to win the league again. But the situation of both is the kind of thing that Bloom will have looked at in advance and thought there's opportunity there.

[Max Rushden]

Chris says, can you ask Ewan what's currently big in the world of retrieval practices in mathematics? This is. Once again, I tagged the wrong Ewan Murray on Blue Sky. So it's a different version of when people tag you instead of the golf commentator.

[Ewan Murray]

Yes.

[Max Rushden]

This Ewan is a Psychology PhD student at the University of York, looking at using spaced retrieval practice in mathematics. So apologies, Ewan, if I could tell you.

[Ewan Murray]

I couldn't tell you the square root of 149, so I've got no chance with whatever that question was.

[Max Rushden]

No, 12 and a bit. It's probably in it anyway.

[Ewan Murray]

Maybe. You can't square 149, can you? There you are. That's a daft I am with that stuff.

[Max Rushden]

Anyway, thanks, Ewan. Have a good day.

[Ewan Murray]

Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

Cheers, pal. You and Murray there, our Scottish football correspondent. And that'll do for part two. We'll do a Premier League preview of part three.

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[Max Rushden]

To Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly so then Premier League Super Sunday 4:30 Mark Liverpool Arsenal. This is great, isn't it?

[Mark Langdon]

It's great. I feels a bit early in the season you sort of want this game I think later on when both teams have bedded in their new players. But it, you know it will should still be a good game. I mean Liverpool defensively and not set yet. So there is an opportunity for Arsenal to to go and get a positive result. I think going to Anfield in August is very different to say going there in April if the title was on the line. They've got this good record in recent years. Arsenal against the the big six. I will include Manchester United now for just for the sake of that in that there's 22 Premier League games unbeaten against the big six. A lot of draws away from home. I wouldn't be surprised if this one finished in a draw. Feels to me the kind of game where like not losing is probably more important than risking the win at this stage of the season but certainly an opportunity like I say, I think from Arsenal's point of view like it's better to play Liverpool at Anfield this early in the season and have the home game later on because yeah it feels like a different atmosphere if you're going there sort of with the title on the line.

[Max Rushden]

Robin Saka is definitely out Odegaard maybe so we could see Eze coming in which I I'm fascinated to see how he goes.

[Robin Cowan]

Yeah I mean obviously very sad that he left Crystal Palace. I mean I feel like this every summer. I feel like can't you all just stay and then see what happens at Crystal Palace. But yeah, no, unleash Ezra and. And I mean he's just going to be buzzing, isn't he? Looks so happy to be there. I just wonder. I mean. Yeah, Arsenal are unbeaten in the last six against Liverpool so I think they. I mean I don't want to say they're going to be favorites at Anfield and Liverpool have looked a bit shaky but it's kind of been against teams that are more sort of counter attacking I think. And I'm not sure if Arsenal that's kind of their. Their main threat. Is it? Well, it's corners, isn't it? So. Yeah, well I guess we. Guess we'll see if Liverpool can defend corners. It might. Yeah. It might end up in the draw.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah.

[Max Rushden]

Look we spoke about it on Tuesday after the Newcastle game. Jonathan. But it is interesting how open Liverpool appear to be.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah. I mean six goal conceded in three games so far. Although weirdly they haven't been behind yet. Which suggests the problem is when they take the lead where last season they were so good at controlling games with the lead. You know they made 2 nil their sort of trademark scoreline and you know they've. In both league games so far they've been tuned up and haven't held it at 2 nil. So that suggests that the changes they've made they. They struggle to. To get that level of control. I think there's. It's not just personnel but I think Kirk has looked really shaky. Surprisingly so. Canate's had a horrible start of a season which I think partly has to do with changes in midfield and that, that, that shift to some more of a 4231 and a 433. It has changed roles in midfield and I think there's maybe a hope from a Liverpool point of view that Gravenberg coming back in on Monday would. Would you solve that straight away? Well, it didn't. So. So that is. That is an issue for them. But I think if you make as many changes as they've made there there are going to be problems early on. And I think another issue they've got is that the right side and it's obviously Frimpong getting injured. So obviously I haven't played right back on Monday. Doesn't help this. But Salah seems to be becoming detached as a result that they've. I think Alexander Arnold's capacity to play those quick 3040 yard passes to release Salah. They. They really miss that now. Ekatike and who knows perhaps Isaac at some point will have to form a relationship With Salah and it's. I think that's easy for center forward because part of your job with Salah is to get out the way for him. So I think there's quite a lot of. Not massive problems, but there's a lot of little question marks there.

[Max Rushden]

Crisis game mark is at the city ground. Nottingham Forest versus West Ham. Where's the, where's the, you know, the, the klaxon of doom gonna land on all of this?

[Mark Langdon]

Well, I definitely think the Claxon is more in East London than it is in, in Nottingham at the moment. Because if Nuno does depart the city ground, like it's an attractive job now and I'm sure that they'll get a good manager. Postecog was linked to it. I think Brendan Rogers was, was also being mentioned. You know, find somebody. I watched West Ham lose to Wolves and it was, it was not a good performance when they were winning 2:1, but it ended in just terrible fashion. Jared Bowen clashing with away supporters. I mean, I would have felt that Bowen would have been the last one that would. Would have been the target of abuse, but definitely kind of throwing the captain's armband to the floor didn't go down well.

[Max Rushden]

What's worse, a shirt or an arm? I mean, on the Xhaka scale, it's not quite the whole shirt, is it?

[Mark Langdon]

It's not. But yeah, when, when fans, when a fan base is angry, it becomes angry at everything. And so, you know, most of the, most of the frustration is aimed at the owners. They've also just seen Everton move into a new stadium that immediately has got a better atmosphere than the one that, that they're kind of been forced to play in for the, the last few years. And so that kind of has been brought up again. It was forgotten about for a while while they were, you know, on some decent European runs. So that's come back to the fore. We're speaking about formations and systems quite a lot in this pod. But the West Ham fans, not happy with the way that West Ham have implemented their back three. It has been. The Boeing has not played wide. They went to Bollinger, didn't play with a striker. Like they're in a bad, terrible shape, you know, conceding, you know, just so many goals. I mean, I'm trying to add it up now in my head. Is it 11 in three games? Yeah. So 11 in three games. Like, this is a big opportunity for Nottingham Forest to get another three points on the board. Yeah. And I'm not sure how long Potter can Ride this out for. Because as much as Karen Brady was on the radio recently saying that yeah he's a good man, he'll be given time. How much time he hasn't improved him from. From Locategi. That's just clear.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah. Actually she was on the show before us. Me and Barry were listening along before we went in and she said you know the thing about you know we've got a never say die attitude and I, I didn't want to pop into the studio and go. I mean I did watch something underway yesterday Karen. I didn't seem like that's, that isn't, that isn't how I would define never say I let them get on with that bit man. City go to Brighton. It's quite interesting Robin off the back of that defeat to spurs you know because City had won the title in the first week. So yeah now they're, now they're out of the race. Do they go back in it? Because Brighton Brian have looked actually good in both games and haven't got a win yet.

[Robin Cowan]

Yeah, no I agree. Yeah it was a really bad sort of second week for knee jerk reactions wasn't it? Because it kind of. Yeah there was a lot of that. Yeah And I think yeah Brighton obviously had a really good confidence boosting win over Oxford United in the, in the Carabao cup having changed their whole team and yet they've had the better XG in their first two games. But again you know Barry pointing out that they, they don't seem to hang on to what they have or, or sort of finish off teams because you know they can see that late equalize to Fulham and then yeah they were better against Everton but somehow conceived to, to lose, lose that game. So I think they can give Manchester City a run for their money but it's just, it's just what sort of Manchester City team turns up and how, how well Brighton implement their, their, their game plan.

[Max Rushden]

How you felt about Sunderland Wilson they played Brentford at the weekend.

[Jonathan Wilson]

It's a big game. I mean Sunland have been granted a relatively straightforward start. So you compare you know Ipswich last year started Liverpool Manchester City. So there are naught points taking you know potentially two batteries after two games Whereas Sunland going West Ham at home, Burnley away, Brentford at home then yeah have you got palace away and Villa at home. So okay, palace away is probably the hardest of those five. So yeah I think on the one hand it's opportunity to get a good start and get a bit of confidence and belief you can exist at that level on the Other hand, if they don't get at least one more win in those next three games, then you start to think, hang on those, those were the easy ones. And, you know, what do we do next? So, yeah, there's a danger always from that first game was, was it a case something being good or West Ham being bad? I think it was definitely West Ham were bad. It's just you hope a little bit of it was something being good. Dan Ballard's injury is not great news that Mukiele was able to start the game in Huddersfield midweek. Well, he lost on penalties because everybody lose on penalties to Huddersfield. Huddersfield's penalty record is incredible. They've been promoted. They've won the League two, League one and Championship playoffs on penalties without scoring a goal in the games. So, yeah, Huddersfield and penalty shootout, it's the surest thing going. So I think going out of the League cup is not the worst thing in the world for a team desperate to stay up, but they probably do need a result to home against Brentford just to keep the sense of momentum.

[Max Rushden]

Going out of the Carabao cup for teams that are desperately trying to stay up is good news. So I suppose we should have said in part one, it was good news for Manchester United, Spurs, Bournemouth. Mark, have you rated Thomas Frank's excellent start to our title winning season?

[Mark Langdon]

Yeah, well, yeah, that's been an excellent start. It looked very organized. Yeah, throughout the team, clear plan and identity in each game. He's been able to change tactics depending on the opponent. I heard people on Saturday mentioning the P word like Pochettino and how it feels because every Pochettino is just the reference point now for kind of, you know, for. For spurs fans now. Like, is it as good as when Pochettino was in charge and he kind of. Nobody's been able to get that balance right like he did. Mourinho and Conte were or and Nuno were on one side of kind of tactics and postecoglou was at the other end of the that scale and like Frank seems much more balanced. Been very good in press conferences, but there's this disquiet in the background around transfers. I prefer to win football matches than transfer windows. But like there is this belief that from a growing section of supporters now that kind of the club is being let down really and has been embarrassed this summer and sort of the moves that they've tried to make and if they don't sort that out in the next few days, you're going to get into the Champions League with a squad that won't be able to cope with playing sort of every Saturday and then midweek. So I think there's going to be another protest outside the ground sort of again, the section of supporters that want to change in ownership. I won't be. I won't be joining them on the march to the stadium. But I would like to see a couple of new players just to help Thomas.

[Ewan Murray]

Frank.

[Max Rushden]

One of those protests, Robin, where they protest and then go and watch a football match.

[Robin Cowan]

Yeah.

[Max Rushden]

Chelsea, Fulham, Leeds, Newcastle. Newcastle have had a £55 million bid for translation turned down by Wolves who play Everton Villa. Play Crystal palace as well. Robin. Let's have your Oxford United minute in order of importance. Your Oxford United minute then. Jonathan Wilson's new book.

[Robin Cowan]

I don't think I need a minute. Yeah, it's been a very tough, tough start. Tough start to the season. Lost every single game. Said a very big defeat to Brighton in the Carabao cup, which was a just. We're labeling that as a free hit, which we didn't hit anything.

[Max Rushden]

So. Yeah.

[Robin Cowan]

Tricky, tricky start.

[Max Rushden]

Who's gaffer there?

[Robin Cowan]

Is it still Gary Rowett? So I believe in Gary we trust. I do think he's an excellent coach. You know, that Oxford United. You know, to think that he would be coaching us a couple of years ago, that would be kind of a bit fanciful. So tricky new stadium coming in a few years. So that's. That's very exciting. But whether we're in League one or Championship at that point, not sure. You know, lowest budget in the league. You know, rightfully should really be relegated. So anything you can do is a bonus. And I understand Oxford United fans, I have a different. You know, as someone who's worked in the game, I know they're. They have a more vociferous view of this sort of thing. I'm. I'm quite zen. It's still early on, I think. I'm not relegating us yet, but yeah, got got Coventry at the weekend who obviously hit seven past qpr. So yeah, we'll. We'll see, we'll see.

[Max Rushden]

But I do like, you know, knowing the level of your football team to be. Say two years ago, if you told me Gary Rowett was managing our team, I'd have bitten your arm off. It's the thing dreams are made of. No, I agree that. That he's a very good manager. Come on then, Wilson. You've written your big book of world Cups.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah. I don't want to oversell it, but I think it might be the Greatest book ever written.

[Max Rushden]

That's good.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah. We've seen a lot of worrying stats recently that people are not reading as much as they were. Okay, this will single handedly change all that. This is going to make literacy cool again.

[Max Rushden]

How many will you give away at the live show?

[Jonathan Wilson]

Two.

[Max Rushden]

Two. Okay.

[Robin Cowan]

That's not Oprah levels, is it?

[Jonathan Wilson]

Half the audience are. What? I hear.

[Max Rushden]

The big Wilson spike. You get a free Wilson book. Two lucky winners. Okay, well, why is it good? Tell me why it's good.

[Jonathan Wilson]

So it's a history of the World Cup. It's got all the stuff you'd expect in terms of great goals, great players, a great games. But it also gives you a lot of political, economic, socio cultural background and lots of detail on stories that I thought I knew and it turned out I didn't know as well as I did. So it's a work of, if I may say so myself, monumental research written in a beautiful and moving way that'll lift the spirits and raise the heart, maybe even bring a tear to the eye. It will be the greatest thing you've ever read.

[Max Rushden]

Right? Yes.

[Robin Cowan]

Can I say I saw, it was a delight to see Wilson in the press room at Crystal palace last weekend and he showed me his wedding dance video which was absolutely beautiful. It was very moving and probably the most exciting thing of that, that, that, that was pre match. That's probably the high point, I'd say.

[Mark Langdon]

There wasn't a 3, 4, 2, 1 formation.

[Max Rushden]

I thought it was a little stiff, but you know, like it was, it was good Wilson.

[Jonathan Wilson]

I, I, I think what you fail to understand is that.

[Max Rushden]

Right.

[Jonathan Wilson]

It was too, it was too Tchaikovsky.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Wilson]

If you look at the way that late 19th century Russian stance, that was quite stiff, it was quite formal.

[Max Rushden]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Wilson]

I think you have to bear in mind that was probably about, I don't know, by 10pm by then.

[Max Rushden]

Okay.

[Jonathan Wilson]

I'd say alcohol had been consumed, so.

[Max Rushden]

Well, no, that should loosen you up. I bet without any booze it would have been.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Having to remember the. It was 2 minutes and 6 seconds. I had to remember moves. It took a lot of focus. I think as well. You gotta remember as well. It starts with the comedy interlude of having to be begged to dance. And that was all built in. And then there's the, some of the.

[Max Rushden]

Worst acting I have ever seen.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yeah. But deliberately so. Okay.

[Max Rushden]

That's the Russian 19th century style.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Exactly. And then the impromptu bit where when my wife punched me in the face right at the end by mistake and I wish I'd gone down clutching my face. It would have been a better conclusion.

[Max Rushden]

Than we had if there'd then been a melee between, you know, both sides. And then you've got like. You must be friends with some ref like Jeff Winter had.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Had.

[Max Rushden]

Come on, Barry.

[Mark Langdon]

Could have done the var sign and sort of could have put it on the big screen.

[Max Rushden]

Exactly. Yeah. Really good.

[Robin Cowan]

She throws down her garter.

[Max Rushden]

But then everyone has to wait for 20 minutes while the decision is they're all just going at the wedding. You don't know what's going on. No one's telling. There's no communication. We've got no idea what's happening. Anyway, well done. It was marvelous. And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Robin.

[Robin Cowan]

Thanks, Max.

[Max Rushden]

Thank you, Wilson.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Cheers. Thank you.

[Max Rushden]

Thank you, Mark.

[Mark Langdon]

Thank you, Max.

[Max Rushden]

Football Weekly is produced by Silence Gray. Our executive producer is Joel Grove. We'll be back on Monday.

[Robin Cowan]

This is the Guardian.