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Football Weekly
Heartbreak for England, again: World Cup Daily – video
00:38:51
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, John Brewin, Jonathan Wilson and Nicky Bandini as England lose 2-1 to Argentina in the World Cup semi-finals
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- [00:00]
A
This is the Guardian.
- [00:10]
B
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
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C
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.
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B
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
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C
That's right.
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D
Hey.
- [00:32]
C
Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [00:36]
B
And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
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C
News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.
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B
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- [01:22]
A
Foreign. Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. You'd started to hope, hadn't you? We'd all started to hope, but in the end we tried to do what we did against Mexico. And defending a lead against Mexico isn't defending a lead against Neil and Messi and defending a lead against Argentina. You just felt it was coming first. Enzo given too much space on the edge of the box. He struck it beautifully. And then McAllister hit the post. It fell to Messi and his cross was perfect. Lautaro couldn't miss. The inquest will begin. Tuchel's changes were defensive. They invited pressure. Too much pressure. England stopped playing. We'd taken the lead. Rodgers. Brilliant cross for Anthony Gordon. The first half had been tight and foully, mainly Giuliano Simeone, but England had the chance. We had it and we lost. We've been here before. We know how this goes. We can process defeat. We go again, the final, then Argentina v Spain. Don't care. This is today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Jonathan Wilson. Welcome.
- [02:21]
D
Thank you very much.
- [02:22]
A
Hi. John Bruin. I'm well, I'm okay. John Bruin. Hello.
- [02:25]
E
Hi.
- [02:26]
A
Over in the uk, Nikki Bandini.
- [02:28]
D
Welcome.
- [02:28]
F
Hi.
- [02:29]
A
And that's the panel. Oh, Barry Glendenning.
- [02:32]
E
Hello.
- [02:32]
G
Hello.
- [02:32]
A
Max Colm says, tell Barry to enjoy the podcast. John says, just give the microphone to Baz. Connor says, go on, Baz, finish them. Sam says, someone feed Barry some infected lettuce. And Bobby says who should start wing back for Ireland's next game against Kosovo. Which seems like a good place to start, doesn't it? As we walked out of the bar, there was this apocalyptic rainstorm which felt pretty apt. John. Ah, it.
- [02:57]
E
Yeah, we, we, as you say, we go again. Desolation is the feeling. And the inquest begins. And it feels to me as though Thomas Tuchel, in the immediate aftermath, is going to take a lot of the blame. I don't think he can have the full blame. But I said to you, didn't I? Too early for Gordon. I think you ignored me at the time. I think we were just too happy. But I just felt half an hour of trying to do that. It's too negative. There was no outball for England and Argentina. Well, Lionel Messi has played against teams playing a low block before.
- [03:38]
A
Yes.
- [03:40]
E
He's quite. At 39 years old, he's been down this, this road before. And so he finds the little spaces, the little half spaces, and he does what he always does. And England do what they always do, too.
- [03:56]
D
Yeah, I mean, the, the switch to the back three. At the time we were saying, this makes no sense. This isn't us being wise after the event. This is what we were saying at the time. That, when, when Tickle did that against Mexico. Okay, at the time I was, I was concerned by that, but you could see afterwards, okay, actually, Mexico didn't have anything other than chucking the ball in the box. Even against Norway, they're not going to be able to find those little pockets that Messi finds. And I think in those two games it was sort of justified by playing at altitude, playing incredible humidity. Well, conditions in Atlanta weren't particularly difficult. I don't understand why England got themselves in a position where that seemed to tickle the only thing they could do. Why was there no outball? Now Harry Kane drops deep and I think it's a good thing he drops deep. I think that's one of the key parts of his game, is what leads to England's goal. If he's going to do that, you have to work out another way of holding the ball at the pitch because there was just wave to wave of attack. And that had begun before the switch to the back three. And the switch to the back three just sort of verified that as that's the way this game's going to be and there were so many chances and it wasn't just two goals. There was, yeah, Pickford made two or three very good saves. There was a few headers and then Argentina could hurt England both by crossing the box and by Messi sort of darting around them.
- [05:15]
A
So yeah, and you feel Nikki that even when it went one one that it, there was just panic and you can't panic when Messi is around.
- [05:23]
F
Yeah, Jonathan talked about Messi finding pockets of space. Actually I was just watching before we came on the BBC doing some of the post game analysis. I mean he was sitting in vast acres of space for points in that, in that last part of the game and he wasn't even moving. He didn't have to move. He was, he'd found the sp. Because I mean again Jonathan says back three. It was a back five, wasn't it? It wasn't the back three in all reality and the lack of midfield just meant that there was just this huge open plane for him to wait in and he, he's such a, I mean there's nothing new to say about how intelligent he is and about how well he, he reads the game, about how well he interprets that space and sees that that's where the opportunities are going to, to build for him. And, and I think it feels even hard to criticize the players when you look at the, the, the, the Fernandez goal which is from a completely worked routine. It's a free kick they've done before. But you see Jed Spence has to go to the, to Messi and someone has to come and help him. And, and yeah, maybe if, if someone like Declan Rice is, is still on the pitch he's going to get out to Fernandez quicker and, and, and see that threat sooner. But, but you kind of have to send two men at Messi, don't you? You can't ignore him. And even there. So yeah it's, I, it feels very simplistic to put it in this framing and it's going to be the framing that everyone puts it in but it really does feel self inflicted by England. It feels like they took the plan that was least going to work for them in that situation. Maybe Argentina would have come back anyway. Argentina have got a lot about them as we saw. But the plan was not good.
- [06:54]
A
You might be able to hear banging outside the studio. I'm not sure that's just the Dan Byrne and Jed Spence statues being taken down. Go on then, Barry. Forgive me for waiting this long how is the fearometer?
- [07:05]
G
Oh, I've switched it off. Max, since that game ended, I've kissed two different Argentinians who I'd never met before. Look, this time yesterday, Max, you were talking about the criticism we received for being too negative about England, and I feel that you're all being quite negative now. Have you not learned the lessons of history? The one thing I'd say is the number of text messages and WhatsApp messages and whatnot I've received from various Irish, Welsh and Scottish friends since the game ended. Would suggest that Philippe seriously misjudged the international mood when he boldly claimed yesterday that the entire world was behind England for this one game. Tuchel went full Southgate. Didn't he never go full Southgate? That's what Southgate did.
- [08:01]
D
And I. I slightly disagree with that. I don't think Southgate ever intended to drop that deep. I think it just happened and he was unable to react. Whereas Tuchel. Tuchel, you opted to do that. It's. It's much worse than Southgate.
- [08:12]
C
Do you think.
- [08:12]
A
Do you think then Tuco. Because obviously we could all see it, right? We see we've gone, and it isn't like the Mexico game, like you said. Like they, you know, McAllister hit the post. Pickford made a brilliant save. Even. Even, I think, before the changes, it was kind of coming. So you kind of understand the changes, right? Something's coming, but it really didn't work. And. And should he have realized that and done something dramatically different in the 80th minute or whatever, when you can feel this is coming?
- [08:37]
D
Yeah, probably. I mean, yeah, he had to change something, but what he did was to double down on the problem. And it was if. I mean, maybe Tugel's logic was, the heads have gone. We don't have anybody hold the ball up. We don't have any pace to carry the ball forward. All we can do is sit here and hope to survive. But there have been so many chance snaps of five minutes before that that never seemed plausible. I'd also say about Argentina, and this is an ongoing trope through Argentinian history. What were they doing in the first half? Why were they messing about, making it a nasty game? Just play and they'd have won quite easily. They're better than England.
- [09:17]
G
I was just about to say that. They can't half play a bit, can they, when they stop shithousing around.
- [09:21]
D
Yeah.
- [09:22]
G
And as soon as England scored, then they said, well, let's try and actually play football. And from then on, it was just One way traffic.
- [09:31]
A
But I suppose the question is you, if England has tried to play football as well, are Argentina.
- [09:35]
G
Well, I think England were trying to play football. They just get kicked all over the pitch.
- [09:39]
F
I think you could argue that, for instance, you look at the game Bellingham had, who had a very neutral game that was clearly one of their, their targets was to get under his skin, that they believe he could be an emotional player and, and he didn't do anything stupid. But did he have the game that, that England needed him to have? No. So. Well, I, I totally get where Jonathan's coming from because you watch how they play at the end and think, why didn't you just do this from the start?
- [10:00]
D
You'd have uneasily say that in 66 as well. If they hadn't done all the daft stuff to get ratty and sent off, they might have won that game. I mean, Bellingham did do something stupid after the final whistle, didn't he?
- [10:09]
A
A substitute in the back of the head. Harry Kane said afterwards, we played a good game, the large majority of it. When we went one nil up, we seemed to try and hold on, which at this level is not enough. So just gutted because we've worked so hard to be there and the lads have given every last bit of running blood, sweat and tears. So to fall short is just gutting. So, I mean, if he's noticed, like the players have noticed this, we, I mean, we, we talk about, you know, in game management, John, like everyone can see it. The players can say, look, it's easy. It's easy from here, right? It's easy from the barber in it's easy from this studio.
- [10:39]
E
Well, we were talking the other night when we. Philippe was talking about the Morocco players not responding to their manager's instructions. And I mean, Jonathan talks about a back three. It was more like a back seven at a certain point.
- [10:49]
D
And yeah, I mean, I, I. The Morocco issue, I think is more complex than that. But anyway, it's probably not the time to get into.
- [10:56]
E
Of course not.
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D
But I disagreed with what Philippe said about Morocco.
- [10:58]
E
Okay, fine, fine. But what, But I'm happy to do
- [11:02]
A
25 minutes
- [11:05]
E
if the problem is if you attempt those tactics and you don't get away with it.
- [11:11]
A
Yeah.
- [11:11]
E
Then you look very bad. And Thomas Tuchel is going to have to wear that, unfortunately for him, because. And we have watched that game before where England sit back and then that moment comes and they do it against. They'd never played Lionel Messi before, but whenever they were going to Play Lionel Messi. That was always likely to happen. And as Nikki said, there were points where he's just stood there in open acres of Georgian countryside and it's just. You cannot do that. And the Enzo goal. He's had a cider. He's had a cider that Jordan Pickford tips over and then they allow the same thing to go. There was, I thought this about England joining this World cup, that there have been moments when there's been a loss of faculties, a loss of calm. Does that come from Tuchel? Because he certainly is not keeping his calm on the sidelines. And Argentina in the first half, they clearly were trying to get under the skin. As Nikki said, Simeone, that was his entire job. I mean, he wasn't there to play
- [12:14]
A
with his head was great.
- [12:15]
E
No, he's just, I mean, you know, commit as many fouls.
- [12:18]
A
His dad would be proud of that performance, I'm sure.
- [12:21]
D
Yeah, the apple hasn't fallen.
- [12:24]
A
Messing me going a off the old block.
- [12:27]
E
Dad could not be prouder. I mean, it was just. I know. And with Sir David sat there just thinking, we've seen this movie before and the Argentina plan worked perfectly, we must credit them. There was talk before the game that, oh, well, you see, Thomas Tuchel is a superior coach to the Loscalone. Well, that what didn't come to pass, did it?
- [12:50]
A
Yeah, Hoops did say. Any chance you can ask Philippe next time he's on if he still believes Scaloni is a vastly superior tact? Lita Tuko. I mean, the thing is, Nicky, I mean, it is still for Messi to be this good, you know, because I think even at the start of the tournament, he thought, wow, he's playing well in little bits, but the oppo aren't that great. Maybe the oppo weren't that great today, but. But still, it was incredible.
- [13:11]
F
Yeah, of course it is. He's. He's magic. And. And I. I think that's almost been lost at times in the. Listen, as easy as it is to have a go at Philippe saying that everyone was cheering for Argentina when they clearly weren't, it is this odd paradox that Argentina did make themselves very unlikable to a lot of people, or maybe they didn't make themselves unlikely to a lot of people, but a lot of people following this, fans, from a neutral perspective, saw what happened in that Egypt game and rightly or wrongly, felt there was a huge injustice that occurred that day. And I think that there have been a lot of feeling like Argentina are somehow FIFA's team. I even thought, you know, it was interesting on. On this idea of. Of who's pulling for Argentina and England. You always expect Naples to be pulling for Argentina because of that Maradona connection. They've always done it. I read a thing just today in an. In a Neapolitan football website. Really? Well, I read one that was saying Diego Maradona would have supported England rather than Miss FIFA, supported Argentina, which I think is wrong, by the way. But still, I. I thought it was interesting that someone was even trying to make that argument. But. But then you. You watch Leo Messi and you just think, how can you not enjoy watching him? Obviously, you don't want to see him scoring against England and. Or setting up the goals against England and. And knocking them out when you're English, but when you're anyone else, watching this guy play football at 30, 30 or 39, whichever he is, and in that first half, even before wigging to the. The end of the game, when he's pulling the strings and making this turnaround happen, that moment when he bounces off tackle from Spence, shrugs off Harry Kane, sends Harry, sends Anthony Gordon the wrong way, and then finally gets clattered by Elliot Anderson. You just think it's not just the fact he's seen everyone and understood what they are. It's not just the fact his feet move that quickly. It's how he uses that body that doesn't look big enough to shrug off someone like Harry Kane and positions it to get himself between the ball and the opponent. He's so good to watch. And in the end, yeah, that's the difference between sitting back and trying to defend a lead against Mexico or Norway. And yes, the best player I've ever
- [15:24]
G
seen play football as very disappointed England fans. What now for Tommy Tucu? Is that a sackable offense that last 20 minutes, or do we go again?
- [15:37]
A
Because he got so close, just so conditioned to this. I just. I wonder if any.
- [15:43]
G
I mean, I suspect he won't care. Well, I mean, he'll care that they lost the game, but when the dust settles, he's gonna get slaughtered tomorrow. Like, slaughtered in the media. But I think ultimately he won't be that bothered.
- [15:57]
D
Yeah, well, a lot depends, I think, on how serious that rift between him and Bellingham is. Whether that actually is a rift. I think to say that in that moment suggested it's something he's thought of. And if he's thinking this guy doesn't actually know what it's like, I'm not sure that's a healthy situation to be in for England's biggest player and they managed to have a difference of opinion, apparently. That profound, I think is worrying.
- [16:23]
A
I guess it depends, John, if, if, if the England players bought into those tactics, you might after the Mexico game, I guess.
- [16:31]
E
Well, I suspect we're going to hear.
- [16:33]
A
But yeah, I'll tell you what, why don't we end part one.
- [16:35]
E
Yeah.
- [16:36]
A
And then do Tuchel's comments in part two. Hi, Podfans. Max here. Barry's here too.
- [16:42]
G
Hello.
- [16:42]
A
Global Weekly is supported by Gradient fc. Now, Barry, with the World cup underway, we know player performance will be under a microscope, from superstars cementing legacies to upstarts vying for big summer transfers. But with 48 teams and up to six matches a day, it's hard to catch every moment. And that is where the Gradient FC app shines. Their player rankings update daily during the World cup, so you know whose performances are trending up or down on the world stage.
- [17:06]
G
How does it work?
- [17:07]
A
Well, Gradients rankings use the same grades trusted by clubs across Europe's top leagues for player recruitment. Each match is graded by a team of experts who evaluate over 2000 actions per match, not just by outcome, but by execution. So, for example, a completed pass that leads the receiver into danger is graded negatively, while one that puts the receiver in on goal is graded positively. Now, I know you hate making match predictions, Barry, but maybe all that could change at the World Cup. With Gradient fc, with head to head player comparison tools that show who's best across more than 100 grades and metrics, it's easy to build and defend any prediction. And here's something else that will appeal to you, Barry. It's free.
- [17:43]
G
Fantastic.
- [17:43]
A
Explore it for yourself@radientfc.com or download the Gradient FC app from the Apple Store or Google Play.
- [17:57]
C
What makes a leader worth following?
- [17:58]
A
What should you really care about in your job?
- [18:01]
G
As technology is changing so quickly, is
- [18:03]
C
it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own? What would that take?
- [18:09]
G
What does success and risk look like
- [18:12]
A
when we're all at the starting gate together?
- [18:14]
C
These are the questions we answer each week on Lead Human with Jack Myers and Tim Spengler.
- [18:19]
G
Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube.
- [18:24]
C
We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together.
- [18:34]
D
Foreign.
- [18:40]
A
Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So this is too cool. There's quite a lot of it, but it's probably worth reading. Access we're disappointed. We were so close, but we got too passive after we scored and conceded a lot of chances. We could not turn the ball possession around and then conceded so many crosses, chances and shots. We were close but couldn't keep the level up after we scored on his substitutions, he said, I did also offensive substitutions in the last games. We just tried to help the players. We conceded a chance straight away and we decided to go to a back five because the G too open. Of course, the responsibility is the coach and if it doesn't go well, it's easy to say it was wrong. On the thoughts of going for a second goal, he said, yeah, but it doesn't help if you can't get the ball. We couldn't get out. Of course we wanted to go for the second goal, but I did not have the feeling that offensive substitutions would help. We stayed in our 4, 4, 2, but became passive. More and more passive. It's no problem. I can understand these discussions are out there on his future and how well he did. There are millions of coaches after the game who know it better.
- [19:30]
E
With Tukali. He's always fairly honest. He read the game pretty much as I would see it. I don't. I don't agree that he couldn't make offensive substitutions. I think when we talk about the reaction, Barry's correct to say that he's going to get hammered. He's not going to get hammered in the old, you know, root vegetable on the back of a tabloid newspaper thing. But. And it's because I do think that the football press is actually quite responsible at these things. There will be people that are prepared to argue his case. It's more of the wider media and the wider public because my, you know, whatsapps or whatever were. The manager made a right mess of that. And, and that's. That's the what, you know, not just football. People sure are going to be saying,
- [20:14]
A
but why did they play like that person? You could say he deserves a lot of criticism.
- [20:18]
E
Yes, and. But Thomas Tuchel knows it's coming his way. He's been manager of Bayern Munich. He's been manager of Chelsea. This is what happens. Maybe being a manager of England is a different level of the criticism that he's going to get. The problem is in England always do this. We gave him a new contract before the tournament and this happens almost every time.
- [20:38]
G
I mean, England aren't alone in doing that.
- [20:40]
E
You know, Scotland did it.
- [20:42]
G
Scotland, Ireland have done it.
- [20:45]
E
It's always a hostage to fortune though,
- [20:47]
G
isn't it baz kind of wondering why do football federations do this? And I, I could be completely wrong, but that the manager they have, whether it's Hymer Helgrimson or Steve Clark or Thomas Tuchel, they're people go and say, you know, unless you offer us a new contract, he's going to go.
- [21:06]
E
I think the word is that the Football association thought that, hey, if a Manchester United or something like that comes up, then Tuka would be open to that. So they decided to close off that avenue. They might want to open up that for you now, but we're going to have to see.
- [21:20]
A
Yeah, I mean, Nikki, because so much was said, look, you know, it's a great night to be Gareth Southgate. I guess he's probably too nice to be dancing around his living room or releasing the handbrake on his, you know, his modestly priced sedan car, going, there we are. A calming release of the hand.
- [21:37]
E
Let's get, let's get dear England back on the iplayer, you know, but, but
- [21:40]
A
the point is, Nikki, it was all about this guy is a winner. You've seen people before, England have got to a final or won anything, saying, look, we've got a winner now. And I was like, this is too premature. And that is what has transpired.
- [21:54]
F
It's a really, when you take a step back, it is. It's a really odd situation, isn't it? Because reaching the semi final of a World cup has really constituted drastic failure. I mean, reaching the semi final of a World cup is by definition, it's a rare thing to do. It's certainly a rare thing for England to do. So the fact that it's being received in this way as such a failure, I think is on a level remarkable. And on a level it isn't. Because you look at the talent in this England team and it is an incredibly strong England group. We have got absolutely world class players in that team. Got players who are not just world class but in incredible form, like Harry Kane has had the season of his life. You've got players like Jude Bellingham who had a fantastic tournament. So the expectation has jumped up so much. And I think that in a weird way that's also partly Gareth Southgate's work, right? Gareth Southgate made England a team that get to finals. Gareth Southgate made England a team that no longer had this inferiority complex about itself and started to think, no, we really can compete for these things, even though they haven't actually won them. So. So, yeah, I don't know I think that's an incomplete thought because with a night of. I haven't taken that thought all the way to its conclusion yet. But I do think it's interesting that a semi final is being treated as a profound failure and also that I don't necessarily disagree with that because it doesn't feel like this particular's fault.
- [23:18]
D
It's the manner of his defeat. Right. If England had lost that game two one in a game similar to the defeat of France four years ago.
- [23:25]
A
England played a good team or outplayed like France were yesterday.
- [23:28]
F
Right.
- [23:28]
A
They didn't play well, maybe get crucified. But Spain were brilliant. Argentina weren't brilliant in this game.
- [23:33]
D
Yeah, they were good. It was to have. Have a position where you're in the lead with half an hour to go and then suddenly you invite pressure, which leads to an inevitable bed, I think,
- [23:44]
G
is the technical torrent.
- [23:45]
D
I mean, I take. I take Tuchel's point about going to a back three to try and close those spaces. Maybe that is the way you stop Messi. But how. I'd love to know how he thought the ball was going to stay up the other end of the pitch for more than half a second. Because with Kane playing so deep, you need somebody up there to hold it or at least somebody quick to chase it. But if you're taking Gordon off, you don't have any. I mean, you can't expect Jed Spence to do it from. From wing back. Or maybe he was meant to do it for wing back, but to, you know, can you Mark. Can you Mark Messi and also just try and get up and enjoy me to settle.
- [24:15]
A
Run.
- [24:15]
E
Nick is correct in that this England team that got to a semi final is not going to have the cultishness of 1990 or €96 or even 2018, because the expectation came. And actually, if we think of the reaction to England losing the Euro 2024 final, people talk about that tournament as it was a disaster. But we got to the final.
- [24:35]
D
Rubbish in it, John.
- [24:38]
E
Rubbish. But successful in their own terms.
- [24:41]
A
We were better in this tournament than that tournament.
- [24:43]
D
Yeah, but we were better in the World cup in 2022 and England.
- [24:47]
E
But still not. The point is. And Barry's been driving this one home. Still not that good. Doing just enough, I believe is the. The phrase that pays.
- [24:56]
G
And Argentina did just enough today.
- [25:01]
E
They did.
- [25:02]
C
They did.
- [25:02]
A
The thing is, like every tournament you're going to have this day, like, this is the thing we know, like whatever happens as we build up to it, you know, you and the people that don't support England will have this day. I mean, maybe one day.
- [25:13]
G
Can I just make something completely clear to all the people who message me and other Scottish people and Welsh people who got. Why the hate? Everyone likes, you know, a. I would say I've heard what's on the school history syllabus in England. So I'd say broaden your horizons. Everyone likes to see the school bully get beaten up in the playground. That's. That's why the hate.
- [25:37]
A
No, no, of course I would be mad for Scottish and Ireland and Welsh fans to want England to win. I just crazy mad. Brendan says, Barry, where does this rank on the England loss list for you? Thank you.
- [25:48]
G
He says third.
- [25:50]
A
Okay.
- [25:51]
G
After Republic of Ireland won England nil in Euro 1988.
- [25:56]
A
Yeah. Right. Houghton.
- [25:57]
G
Second is European Championships final against Italy where Ellis, James and I watched it in your company. I don't. Wilson wasn't there, but you. You boys were. I was at the game and Jamie
- [26:12]
A
said, have Italy one.
- [26:13]
G
Third.
- [26:14]
A
Okay, have Italy one. As we all sat there.
- [26:16]
G
Yeah.
- [26:17]
A
Morose. The I'm Fine game, I believe it's called. I mean, there were that moment. There were moments, John. There was the goal, right? It was a brilliant goal. There was the Jed Spence tackle and
- [26:26]
E
you know, Major Spence lollipop.
- [26:29]
G
All of you told me. Sorry.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah, it's okay.
- [26:31]
G
Did Jed Spence have a good game or a bad game? Because I don't really know.
- [26:35]
E
He had a Jed Spence game. Yeah, it's both, isn't it? That's just what Jed does. That's what he was there.
- [26:40]
G
I mean, he had this brilliant goal saving tackle.
- [26:43]
A
He made some great runs early. Double nut making the first five minutes.
- [26:46]
D
Yeah.
- [26:46]
A
I think as Wilson said, that should stop the game. That should be an instant win, shouldn't it?
- [26:50]
G
And then was at fault for, I don't know, certainly the first goal. He should have.
- [26:55]
A
I thought he made more of an
- [26:56]
G
effort to close down. Fernando.
- [26:58]
A
I thought Anderson. I thought Anderson was the player that went and shouldn't have gone. I think.
- [27:03]
G
Well, he's another player. I'm going. Good game.
- [27:05]
E
Bad game. Not quite.
- [27:06]
A
He's had a good tournament, Anderson.
- [27:07]
G
Oh, he has, yeah.
- [27:08]
A
I think he's played really well.
- [27:09]
D
And to be fair, Spence on the second goal, I think he got. I think his foot was trodden on. And he sort of hobbles over to Messi. Yeah, I think he's sort of reeling in pain.
- [27:18]
G
Yeah, I thought pain is a privilege, John.
- [27:22]
A
Right. Stephen Barlott.
- [27:25]
E
Different attitude to certain refueling. I suppose the thing about Jed Spence is that. He leaves the tournament as the English cult hero, doesn't he?
- [27:32]
A
Him and Dan Byrne, I guess.
- [27:34]
E
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And that's. There are those moments that we can take out of that. It wasn't a complete disaster. The Mexico win was glorious. Was a glorious night for everybody involved above Barry. And it was just. You get to Argentina and we. The nerves we felt before that game because you just felt we should beat these, but maybe we were deluding ourselves. And then you realize that and then you get hope.
- [28:00]
A
That's the thing, isn't it?
- [28:02]
E
And they. And then you realize they can play a bit of these lads, can't they? But after they've stopped winding up England and then as soon as they have to, you know, let's. Nikki did it at length, but Messi, just incredible, you know. And this may be his last ever game for Argentina will be in a World cup final. And that's just an unbelievable. Writing his own scripts. Just the greatest player that we've seen. Certainly.
- [28:28]
D
I mean, the idea that for what his career is, what, say, 22 years long.
- [28:34]
E
Yeah.
- [28:34]
D
So for the first 18 years of those 22 years, he's been criticized because, well, you haven't won the World cup like Diego did. And the fact that in the future we'll go. The thing with Diego is he only actually won one World Cup.
- [28:48]
E
He's playing his three finals and just. He is a. And his level of. His level of disappointment is something that England would really like to have, isn't it? That's the thing.
- [29:01]
D
I don't know if you've noticed that. The thing he's really developed in his game, that I think he's really improved over the last four years, is his sarcastic nod when somebody's arguing with him and his sarcastic nod of Bellingham as they were walking out to start the same lap. This doesn't feel like it's going to go well now.
- [29:17]
A
And also he's just sort of got his henchmen just around him, you know, he doesn't have to worry about that. There was a moment in the game where Mick Jagger just shook his head and you were like, ah, oh, it's
- [29:27]
E
done, it's all over now. There you go.
- [29:30]
A
Exactly. You can't always get what you want. Etcetera, etcetera. Etc. Nikki, have you got any other thoughts on this, on this game?
- [29:37]
F
You were asking me about World cup fever in England and I was saying I didn't feel like it had arrived in quite the same way. And then the Norway game. I Watched it was the first game I took, I got to watch with my niece and my niece is football mad, right. But she's mostly been football mad for women's football up till now. She's got Kim, little Chloe, Kelly, all those posts up on her wall. She's really into it, but she's never really care that much about the men's team. But this World cup she's been interested in the men's team because it's World cup and because it's on and I don't know if it's an entirely. Just my experience but actually like I got to have that quarterfinal. Watching with her and watching it with a kid who's really into football is just different. Like it's just so much more fun honestly than watching with just the grownups, I think. And you get to remember what football feels like when you're, when you haven't suffered through all of the rubbish bits before and. And yeah, you know, I don't know because I'm not young, but I think this World cup would have left some quite formative memories for a lot of people. England going to a semi final and scoring some great goals and winning some great matches. I think there's some good stuff there too.
- [30:40]
A
I think that's really. We did a little live thing for the TikTok channel, John, before talking about 86 and 90 and you being in your living room with your brother. And there will be so many, you know, 10 year old, 8 year olds now who are, were too young to really remember the last World cup. And this will be their first. This is the first stamp of pain for those people, you know, and a lot of their parents will probably listen to this and think, yeah, I was there. And my. And you can turn to your kid and say this is how it is.
- [31:11]
E
And, and this is the thing that can't be sold off. The World cup, despite everything else being sold off, is that there is a soul to the World cup is indelible on football fans. And despite all the doubts that we had, this World cup has provided many moments like that, hasn't it?
- [31:28]
A
We have live shows 1st of September, Vicar street in Dublin, 9th of September, Soho Theater in Walthamstow. Should we do the same running order or slightly tailor it?
- [31:37]
G
We have one tomorrow night.
- [31:38]
A
We do New York. Yeah. And all you lot are going to be there as well as the, the Bowery Ballroom. So if you're coming along, we look forward to seeing tomorrow. If you want tickets for. There's a live stream of that if you Want to get it? The London show is live streamed as well. Guardian.co.uk footballweeklylive and we' be back in a second. Talk about the final.
- [31:58]
B
He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts, tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the nonstop group chat, trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots. No unlimited data for $25 a month. Forever.
- [32:17]
C
Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay 25amonth as long as they remain active on the Boost 25 Unlimited plan.
- [32:29]
G
Now at McDonald's, get a five dollar
- [32:31]
A
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G
They come with small fries, a soft
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A
drink and four piece McNuggets.
- [32:38]
G
We're going to need a bigger tray. Get more value with your meal deal with McValue.
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D
Prices and participation may vary.
- [32:43]
B
Prices may be higher for delivery.
- [32:53]
A
Welcome to Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, Spain, Argentina. Jonathan, you were in Dallas for the, the Spain game. It's like Spain was so good yesterday and Argentina do just enough. They find a way. Like you, you, you, you would have to say Spain are the favorites.
- [33:08]
D
Yes. Yeah, I mean, Argentina sort of bundled through each game and they're riding this sort of emotional wave that you fear could crash at any moment or hope could crash at any moment, depending which way you're looking at it today. But Spain, I mean, Spain's performance against France was, I think by a significant margin, the best performance by any team at this World Cup. They're a little bit lacking in cutting edge, but I don't really see how that. I just hear midfield's gonna, gonna be able to dominate the ball, but maybe, maybe they don't need to. But yeah, I was baffled by what France did yesterday. I mean, I always assumed at some point Deschamps would move from 4, 2, 3, 1 to the 433.
- [33:56]
A
Right.
- [33:56]
D
Would revert to type at some point in the tournament. Then it's like he got carried away or like the front four was so good he felt he couldn't.
- [34:02]
A
Once the handbrake's off, yeah, it's hard
- [34:04]
D
to get back on. Yeah, you can't get the handbrake back in the tube, famously. And they were so outplayed in the first half and I Guess maybe because Rabiot had been booked and could easily have been sent off before half time, it was just get him out of there rather than trying to go to a three. I think probably playing Chermini rather than Kone was a mistake, I think. I'm not sure he was fully fit and Kone had played quite well the previous two games. If you are going to go with the two, maybe you got the wrong two. It was all a bit limp in the end. It was actually a weirdly flat game.
- [34:38]
E
Yeah.
- [34:38]
A
You imagine if Spain take the lead, they're not going to do what England did. I mean, they can keep the ball, right? They can have the ball.
- [34:42]
D
That really helps.
- [34:43]
A
Yeah, it really does.
- [34:44]
G
How do you think France will line up in the third and fourth place play?
- [34:48]
D
Well, this is. I think this is a great opportunity for Killian Mbappe to do what Jus fontaine did in 1958 when he scored four goals in the third place playoff. So if Mbappe really wants, you know, this is Mbappe's his way of. Of really putting the pressure on Messi by scoring for Saint Messi. If you want to be the leading score in the World cup at the end of this tournament, you've got to do something pretty special tomorrow.
- [35:06]
A
It's probably a big chance for Kobbie Mainoo, isn't it, to. You know,
- [35:11]
D
I don't.
- [35:12]
E
It'll get a go.
- [35:12]
A
Get a go. Just what, two minutes at the end.
- [35:15]
D
Tony Watkins up front.
- [35:17]
A
Yeah, why not? Who cares about that? How do you see the final, Nikki?
- [35:21]
F
Yeah, I think it should be a good final. I think. I think it may be not hell to skill, to football, which I think is sometimes what people think they won, but I think they're two teams that can control the game. I think there's probably going to be quite a lot of shithousery, but that can be fun too, in a. In a big. In a big stage game when there's high stakes on it. So I'm looking forward to it and I think Spain will probably win, but who knows?
- [35:44]
G
I mean, Spain are the better team and they should win, but this Argentina are. They're like cockroaches. You can't kill them, can you? Just Terminator cockroaches.
- [35:56]
A
And I mean that in the nice way. Is it an insult to a cross?
- [35:59]
G
I can't insult my new Argentinian friends from the bar in which we watch
- [36:04]
A
the game trying to stamp on Simeone and he runs under the fridge again and you're like,
- [36:11]
G
I'm not gonna write off Argentina's chances. The thing is, I don't care.
- [36:17]
A
I could just enjoy it. We can enjoy a game together for the first time this World Cup, John.
- [36:22]
E
But yeah, I mean the needle is what interests me because Argentina have a formula, it's fair to say. And you've got to try and disrupt that, that Spanish, you know, roulette, the way they move the ball around and just try and stop them. Agree with Jonathan that Spain have had that lack of cutting edge which may cost them because they're always going to, there's always going to be a sting in the tail when you play Argentina because they can go through the gears because they have that belief and they
- [36:55]
A
have that very special cockroaches with a sting.
- [36:59]
D
I had a cockroach issue last year. All right, we, we got in, I was, I was actually, weirdly, I was in Argentina at the time, of course.
- [37:07]
A
But did it make the squad?
- [37:11]
D
Got in a bloke called Dave from Doncaster.
- [37:13]
A
Right.
- [37:14]
D
And he probably had a middle aged voice.
- [37:16]
G
Sorry to be clear, the cockroach issue was in London. Yeah, but you were in. Okay, yeah, right.
- [37:21]
D
And he, I, I, I, Dave from
- [37:23]
A
Doncaster was in London.
- [37:24]
D
Yeah, I subsequently I did subs, I think he lives in Hatfield.
- [37:28]
A
Okay.
- [37:29]
D
But he had so long gray hair, his trousers about 4 inches too long and I've never seen a man so in love with his job. He came in, just started this monologue and he was.
- [37:40]
E
Sounds like Saxon Dale, if you remember.
- [37:42]
D
Yeah, very Saxon though. Yeah. Yeah, but he was. No, the thing is, I use this powder, it's ground up prehistoric seashells. Some of lads say, Dave, you're mad, what you doing? And I say 93% kilo rates, they're chemical ones. 30%. Who's mad there? It's not me, he's. Oh, I used to be, used to be pest control for Ronnie Scott, you know, jazz club. Oh, a great gig.
- [38:06]
A
Who knew pest control could name drop?
- [38:09]
E
These are the conversations that Luis de la Fuente is having right at this moment.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah, I think you're right.
- [38:14]
D
Used to go in half seven Sunday night. Tony took an hour. I'd sit there till morning. Let me out. Other lads wouldn't do it. So it was haunted. I said, sometimes you know it yourself, can't you? But then one night I was sitting there, I was fiddling on my phone, you know, I finished job. Cupboards start banging open and shut. I thought, fuck me, David, he's haunted. Anyway, that's what he was like.
- [38:32]
A
A correction from yesterday's pod. We said that Gianni Infantino was booed in Dallas during the Spain France semi final. I thought I heard the comms say something that that wasn't what came up on the big screen.
- [38:42]
E
He definitely was booed, though. Well, there was booing at the same time.
- [38:46]
A
At the same time. So we saw Infantino on the screen. The crowd booed, but at that time, the crowd had been showed Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones on the Jumbotron at the exact time we saw Infantino on the coverage. So Janny is on the TV screens, but his picture is not put up on the coverage.
- [39:02]
D
And I need to confirm that when Jerry Jones came on the big screen, he was booed.
- [39:06]
A
Got it.
- [39:07]
E
Okay.
- [39:07]
D
And Gianni did not appear on the big screen.
- [39:09]
A
We apologize to Jani and Fantina.
- [39:11]
E
I only saw him once today. No boos?
- [39:14]
A
No.
- [39:15]
E
So the TV director got it right this time. Whoever that was yesterday.
- [39:19]
G
New tv.
- [39:20]
E
Did you suggest stinging email?
- [39:23]
A
He had a good first day of work.
- [39:25]
E
He did.
- [39:26]
A
Mel says hi, Max. Barry and the Guardian Football Weekly team. I was hoping you might be able to give a shout out to Jenna and Andy, who are due to be married this weekend. Both are massive Football Weekly listeners and Arsenal fans. Jenna's journey has been complicated over past couple of years. She's battled cancer on a couple of occasions, has been able to beat it with remarkable courage and positivity. Alongside Jenna's love for Barry Glendenning, she's also a massive Barry's Boot Camp enthusiast. Enthusiast. Two things that are very different, I would suggest. Could we make it happen? As in, could we take Barry to Barry's Boot Camp? It's a fitness club, Barry, if you're interested.
- [39:58]
G
I mean, you're criticizing my lack of fitness. Max, when you run 13 miles, get back to me and talk about fitness.
- [40:06]
A
The pod has unknowingly been part of helping keep spirits high over the years. If Barry could just wish Jenna and Andy all the best for their wedding, it would absolutely make their day. Spoiler alert. I bought them tickets to your live show in September as a wedding gift. Should I give them a gift receipt just in case? Thanks for all the last football chat and companionship over the years. All the best, Mel. So it is Jenna. Jenna and Andy.
- [40:27]
G
Well, I wish them all the best, of course. And I'm sorry to hear Jenna's been through a tough time. I'm not sure she can love me and love Arsenal. I don't think that's going to work, but, no, I hope they have a great wedding and I hope the rest of their guests get them better. Presents.
- [40:47]
A
Yeah, but it'd be nice to see you.
- [40:48]
G
Better. More expensive presents.
- [40:50]
A
Boek says. Can Baz sing? Wonderful. Is that how you want to end this part or. No? Okay, that's. I can't sing anything, apparently.
- [40:57]
E
Songs.
- [40:58]
A
Oh, yeah, and the Waterboys.
- [40:59]
G
Oh, and the Water Boys. There is a video.
- [41:01]
A
There is a video somewhere. There is a video somewhere. I have seen it.
- [41:05]
F
Okay.
- [41:05]
G
I haven't.
- [41:06]
A
No, it's good. We are recording some post World cup mailbags tomorrow because we need some time off after the World cup. So if you have any questions. Football related, serious or sensible or serious.
- [41:20]
G
I'd be honest. Don't have to be football. Any questions about anything.
- [41:24]
A
About literally anything you want.
- [41:26]
E
Ideally.
- [41:27]
G
No football questions whatsoever.
- [41:30]
A
Football weekly@the guardian.com. any questions you like. Because we've got those pods tomorrow. And if you want more Guardian World cup content, I've agreed to go on our sister podcast, Stateside. Oh, that's annoying, isn't it? Now, I. I agreed before the result, but, you know, I'll put a brave face on it. That's out on Friday.
- [41:48]
G
Right now. Say again right now?
- [41:49]
A
No, not right now. No, no, tomorrow I can at least have a night's sleep.
- [41:54]
G
So, drowning your sorrows or.
- [41:58]
A
I'm meeting a good friend for dinner. Thank goodness. But I'll have a pint if you want a pint. There's also the Long way of the Guardians Global Black Diaspora newsletter. Today's edition is by Nesri Malik is on the experience of black football fans across the diaspora watching this World Cup. It's a great piece. Subscribe by searching for the Guardian Long Wave newsletter. But that will do for today. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Barry. Thank you, Max and congratulations. Thank you, Wilson.
- [42:23]
D
I realised he was called Daniel from Doncaster, not Dan.
- [42:26]
A
Do you want to do a re edit? Do you want to tell the story again?
- [42:28]
E
Don't do that.
- [42:29]
A
Thank you, John.
- [42:30]
D
Thank you.
- [42:31]
A
Cheers, Nicky.
- [42:32]
F
Thanks, Max.
- [42:32]
A
Football Weekly is produced by Rory Simon and Matt Bentley Viney. Our executive producer is Joel Grove. We'll be back after the final. Hopefully you will too. This is the Guardian.
- [42:53]
B
He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts. Tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the non stop group chat. Trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots. No unlimited data for 25amonth. Forever.
- [43:12]
C
Visit your local Boost mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay 25amonth as long as they remain active on the Boost 25 Unlimited plan.