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Football Weekly
Is the Chelsea project finally working? – Football Weekly
00:55:19
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Lars Sivertsen and Sam Dalling as Chelsea beat Barcelona 3-0 in the Champions League, while Manchester City and Newcastle both lose
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A
This is the Guardian.
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B
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're.
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Not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint.
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Finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is.
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With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download today. Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Is it time to sound the Taking Chelsea seriously horn A comprehensive win over Barcelona at Stamford Bridge. The headlines will be about Estevao out. Yamal and Yamal. But the Blues dominated all over the pitch. So good in midfield, solid at the back even before Barca had a man sent off. Chelsea were superior elsewhere. Newcastle losing Marseille and both Manchester clubs are booed off in the space of two days. City last night at home to Leverkusen. And on Monday united lose a 10 man Everton. David Moyes. All in favour of the slapping your own teammate tactic to lull the opposition. Also the shocking news that Ronaldo will be able to play in the opening game of the World Cup. And there's the Sky Sports box to review, or whatever it's called. As always, we'll answer your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. In our own little box today. Lars Sivertson. Welcome.
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C
Hi, Max.
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A
Hello. Sam Dalling.
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B
Hello, Max.
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A
You're live from the south of France. That's Sam, not Barry. Barry, welcome. Barry Glendenning.
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D
Hello. I'm live from the south of London.
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A
Excellent. Let's begin at Stamford Bridge. Chelsea 3, Barcelona nil. ASHW says can Chelsea do the quintuple. Of course that now exists given the club World Cup. Three goals for Chelsea. Three disallowed goals and. And Barry, they dominated this game and I just thought were absolutely brilliant.
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D
They were brilliant. Barcelona were. Is it a surprise anymore that they were poor? But they were poor, I think. And I guess he stands out. Another Chelsea player who stands out for good or bad because of his conspicuous hair. But I think Mark Cucarella has been brilliant for them this year. He was superb again this last night. Esteva was superb, obviously. I presume we'll get to him later. He'll have his own little subsection. I think Pedro Neto was brilliant. I think Enzo Maresca deserves credit for deciding to play nettles through the center. That really worked with Carnacho and Estevao either side. Defense was good, Robert Sanchez was good and it was a really impressive performance from Chelsea and who made Barcelona look very, very ordinary indeed. I'm not watching enough Spanish football, or indeed any Spanish football, really, to know if this is how Barcelona are these days. But I was shocked by how, yeah, ordinary they looked.
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A
Like you could look at that result and look at the red card and kind of discount the performance a little bit. But we shouldn't, because apart from that fair and chance that Barca have early and maybe that changes the game. So this was so dominant from Chelsea.
- [03:17]
C
Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I'm not inclined to look away from the. What happened before, and I thought it was very impressive by. By Chelsea. I want to turn it on Barcelona a little bit as well, though, because Barcelona are in this sort of weird phase where they have been picking up wins domestically and they're still in a good spot in the league, but they lost PSG in the Champions League. They lost the Classico. They had that ridiculous 33 game against club Bruga. And they've also been countered into bits by Sevilla a little while back as well. And in between those, there have been wins against Olympiacos. They beat Elche, they beat Celta Vigo, but they don't seem convincing. It's one of those. They've won enough games that they're not, like, in crisis mode just yet, I don't think. I mean, maybe we'll have CID to tell us at some point, but I feel like something is very close to going quite wrong there, and it is the Hansi flicks. And it's funny because the very high, aggressive Hansi flick press almost yielded a first goal here with that Ferrantaurus chance early on. And maybe the game would have been very different. But I have seen so many Barcelona games so far this season already in which you keep thinking, hang on, these are really easy to get at. You know, obviously with Lamina and Pedri, there's so much talent there that they can do things to you, but they seem to concede chances so easily, and I'm not convinced they've got it right still with this press and the defensive line and all that. And Chelsea just had a surprisingly comfortable day. Now, some of that is Chelsea being very good. I'll accept that. But I also just think I'm slightly worried about what's going on with Barcelona at the moment.
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A
Sam, if we do the Estevao subsection, as Barry wanted to do, I mean, that goal, I had to watch it so many times to see, because the first time you see it, you think, okay, he gets a Lucky deflection off someone. This isn't all him. And then the more you watch it, actually this is all him. This balance, this is this just incredible close control and the ability to finish it off.
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B
Yeah. And that's the, the beauty of things done, like, at the very highest level, whatever it is, whether it's football, whether it's writing, academics, it's about making the really complicated, the really difficult things to do look so simple, so you don't even notice them. And there are, there are other top level footballers who sort of stand up and basically wave their arms around and go, yeah, look at me, here's my step overs, here's my tricks. I'm going to be that individual almost NBA basketball style. And Esteban doesn't seem to be that there's room for it, but it's all about efficiency, right. And to do stuff that efficiently, I mean, it was wonderful. He's a joy. I do enjoy sometimes these narratives that the media create, like one player versus another. I mean, they have to find a narrative in a game. So it was Esteban versus Yamao and I thought, oh, well, he's only three months older than him. Like, well, in fairness, it was always like, you almost feel like some people are writing Yamao off and like, he's 18, he's won a couple of titles already. Like, he's done a fair bit. Like, suddenly Esteban's brilliant, right? He's had a very good 90 minutes, he's outshone him. But it's not like Yamao hasn't done much. So, yeah, he's a wonderful player. Chelsea, I think, will be a wonderful team. It's that youthfulness and, and getting the consistency. Barcelona, I saw them earlier in the season, right, and they were missed. Like, Rashford came off the bench, didn't he? Because he, he hadn't been very well. And they were missing Pedri and, and Rafinha, so they were missing a lot of attacking talent. And you, you don't know. Chelsea had a comfortable night. Would it have been different? Different had they had that attacking talent on the pitch? Probably. I mean, the red card is what, when you've already been booked to fly in with that tackle. I wonder if he looked Hansi Flick in the eyes during that halftime team talk. That stare he would have got, I mean, that killed it. I mean, they were probably losing that game anyway. But that really didn't help when Arahu.
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D
Got sent off there. The TNT commentator, I'm not sure who it was, said Cucarella made that Happen. And I was thinking, I think a Rahu made that happen.
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A
But Cucurella is very good. I mean, he's very good at lots of things, right, but he's very good at ro around to, you know, like he did another one earlier. I think he got someone else booked and. But it was interesting you brought him up, Baz, because. And I think you're right too, because he had a brilliant game and it is barrier A. It is a sign, because if you think about how we talked about Cucarella when he signed for Chelsea for a lot of money, 50 odd million and he didn't play well. And then we sort of cast this player aside and I think of footballers who have signed this year, be it Florian Verts or Xavi Simmons or whoever in any position, and we go, these, these are shite. And actually, look how brilliant Cucarella, I mean, he's got a shout for being the best left back in the in and therefore, you know, in the world. Possibly the way he's playing at the.
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D
Moment, I mean, if already sung his praises, I'll only be repeating myself. But he's very good defender, he's very good going forward. He is a complete shithouse, but he's their shithouse. You know, you want him in your team, but you, you know, he's a pantomime hate figure if he's playing against you. And because of the big hair, you do notice him, he sticks out. And when he's playing badly, he's conspicuous. And when he's playing well, he's conspicuous. At the moment he's playing very, very well. But it wasn't always a bed of roses for him at Chelsea and it took him a while to hit his stride with them.
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C
So a friend of mine recently found herself on the same golf course as Marco Correa and was nearly hit by. By Ced Cucureya driving a golf buggy. So I can tell you as a sort of special insight, that actually he is quite chaotic off the pitch as well. Like the sort of. The slightly unhinged S housing does not end at the white lines. I was thinking about this thing you mentioned, Max, about how he's like good at getting people in trouble. And that feels correct because he's such a combative guy. But I also just wonder, is this because he's so noticeable when he falls over? Because the hair goes everywhere that we kind of remember, oh, there goes Kokurea. Whereas when normal people get tackled, it's just a person who gets tackled.
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A
I like the way that you. You know you differentiate between the two types of people, people with long hair and normal people is important way even more so.
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C
Even more so now.
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D
Yeah.
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A
But also Lars, to credit you, you have kind of not defended the Chelsea project. That's the wrong way of phrasing it. But you have said this could work, right? What they have done could work. And we are starting to see it maybe a bit lazily from me. I've kind of said there are so many players it's quite hard to work out what they are. So I don't really have to study what they are. But actually watching them last night you saw a real sense of a team that understood each part, understood what the other part was trying to do.
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C
Well, what I've been saying is I haven't disagreed with anyone who said there's so many players we don't quite know what they are because I think that's been quite clear. But what I have said is that some of those players are really good. The emergence of Estevao as like a genuine super super, a potential world superstar, like if you buy enough of the most talented sort of 19 to 23 year olds on the planet, you throw enough hundreds of millions at it. Law of averages, sooner or later like you're employing some pretty good scouts and some pretty good analysts as well. It just guess stands to reasons that you are going to hit gold at some point. And I've also repeat myself. I feel like I say this every time Chelsea comes up. I think Fernandez and Caicedo is like the beginning of one of the possibly the best meat field in the country. I mean it's a little harsh on the sort of rice subimendi and whoever plays with them is kind of good as well. But I really think that's 2/3 of the best midfield in the country and it gives Maresca some flexibility with who he puts in as a third in there. But they are extremely good. And I guess to pull myself up from earlier, I did reference Pedri who was not playing in this game. Just going to preface some of the angry tweets that will be heading my way from Barcelona fans and I just. And also in fairness to Barcelona, I guess they had Eric Garcia in midfield in this game, which is one of those things that's not ideal when you're coming up against a very, very, very good midfield. So it was tricky from them from that point of view. But my suspicion of the Hansi Flick project and the direction of travel remains.
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B
I think just on Chelsea we need to try and I have this conversation with mates, quite a lot we need to step back. We might be confused and think, oh, the number of players they sign. But maybe there is a real sense of. They're very deliberate and calculated internally, but they treat football very differently. To a lot of other clubs it is a stock exchange for them. They're buying to sell and they've done it brilliantly for 15 years. So they're not necessarily signing players to be in their first team. It's a weird concept to look at, but it is like 6:30, the stock market's open, right, who can we buy? Who can we sell? Today is a different way of watching football, but they've done it for years and years and there's, I think there's a lot of envy in the people that knock them actually for it.
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A
Is there a. Is there a room in Cobham? I just sort of, you know, slicked back hair, gentlemen in, in suits, yelling at each other in this kind of completely incomprehensible world where everyone's furious and cheering and slamming old school telephones down at the same time because they've just signed another 15 year old from, I don't know, Gremio or something like that. Anyway, worth saying, it works. Actually, about this sets up Sunday. I mean, who knows what happens tonight with Arsenal and Bayern, but this sets up Chelsea, Arsenal at Stamford Bridge perfectly.
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C
Yeah.
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D
I mean it was already set up perfectly. I'm not sure how this makes any difference.
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A
I don't know why it felt like a sensible question. It was just. Look, it wasn't a Paxman question. It was just trying to, you know, it's a good game to look forward to, just something like that.
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C
But it's when you get a pass, when a player just drills it into you and the only thing you can do is just kind of send a straight back with your first touch. I don't know.
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A
No, no, no. I don't think that was a hospital. That wasn't a hospital pass. I basically put him clean through just then. All he had to do was tap it in, you know, I mean, we've.
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D
Been talking about this game for 50. I literally have nothing more to say about it.
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A
Fine, Fine. You've nothing more to say. We've done all the subsections. All that needed to be done is done. I just worce. That's okay, don't apologize. You're absolutely right. It's nice. It keeps me on my toes. Barry, they've got Frankfurt, Salvia, Prague and Copenhagen. Barcelona in the next three. So even though they've only got seven points. They should be all right to get through, certainly to the. The playoffs, to the Etihad. Manchester City lost 2 nil. Owned to buy Leverkusen. They made 10 changes. Pep agreeing with Barry's assessment that these games do not matter. I mean, it still lasts. It's a very good 11. And, you know, 400 million pounds of players on the bench. They called on a lot of them. Foden, Doku, Churchy and Harland all came on. And I guess any defeat for Man City is still a big story, I think.
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C
Yeah. So, yeah, I want to name. Take Archie here, who tweeted something along the lines of, you know, Pep. Pep is suggesting he can't make 11 changes. But I mean, the squad he had out there, the 11 he had out, was bought for over 400 million euros, which is more than twice what Leverkusen spent on their starting 11. And Leverkusen have spent a lot by a German standard, partially because they brought in a lot of money for. From big sales. I have to say, this 11, they're very good players, but they're not the players who have been the regulars this year. It's clearly. It had big Carabao energy, this lineup. When it put out, you just immediately thought, this is.
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A
I think he's what Carabao want you to get, isn't it?
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C
Exactly right. Tremendous branding by them. Should have had big carabao energy, maybe that would have been the key. Yeah. And I just. I think it's an example of the fact that with this group stage being the way it is, you can afford to take a game off, essentially. You can afford to take a game where you just. Yeah, we won't arrest our regular guys. We're just going to rotate everyone and throw them in there. And if we lose a game, it really doesn't matter. Like, you're still fine in the group. And I think that's maybe a little bit of a weakness of the new system, which I think, broadly speaking, has not been as terrible as I maybe thought it would have been. It should be. But I think it's a weakness that you have a game like that and you come away feeling like it doesn't really matter. If you're going to try to apply any kind of serious football attempts at analysis to this. It is another example, I think, of kind of how reliant they are on Erling Haaland up front, because Mahmouche is not a bad player, but he's such a different player. So I think feel like the team is Kind of set up. Players are used to playing to Erling now and it's resulting in this incredible season by him so far. But when you put a Mahmouch up there who needs a completely different kind of service, who's a completely different kind of presence, it's like the, it's like it doesn't quite work in the same way. Also, it is also odd seeing I, I know he got it. He's still completely forgotten that they brought him in from, from Wolves. He's, he's, he's, he was there. So it's a bit of an odd one in, in that sense. But yeah, I, I, I hasten to read too much into it. I think this was Pep just wanting to arrest some guys and accepting that a loss is not the worst thing in the world.
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A
Yeah, I, I mean I know he got injured in the, early in the season. Yes. I'm looking forward to Thomas Frank saying we just wanted to let a game go last night, tomorrow on tomorrow's pod after PSG away. Yes. I mean Lars can't see too much over analysis of this game, can you Barry?
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D
I think with a very busy time of the season looming, Pep took a bit of a gamble. It didn't pay off. It obviously was a very expensive City reserve team full of very good players. They weren't terrible. I mean they had chances. Mark Flecken, the former Brentford keeper, he was in goal for Bayer Leverkusen. He made some very important saves. He denied Erling Haaland in a one on one as well. Jarrell Quansa was playing for Bayer Leverkusen as well. He was very impressive, I thought and I think there's probably a few Liverpool fans that wish they had him back or hadn't sold him during the summer. Yeah, it's just Pep taking a gamble. It didn't pay off. So City have now lost what, two in a row? It's not a great look, but ultimately, and Mark Langdon may well be angry with me for saying this, but I don't think this matters a huge amount and it's probably good that some of those City players got a run out. But you know, James Trafford got us a rare start, but I don't think any of them particularly covered themselves in glory story.
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A
Lovely header from Patrick Schick, I thought sort of lovely movement, lovely glancing header. And yeah, Pep before the game did apologize for yelling at a cameraman's ear. But in a sort of I am what I am. You know, there's sort of that kind of at the press conference it was good fun, you know. Anyway, that'll do for part one. Part two will begin in Marseille.
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C
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A
Welcome to Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, Sam, you are there in Marseille to watch Newcastle take the lead and then lose to Pierre Emerick. Aubameyang. How was it?
- [19:42]
B
Oh, where do I start? I mean, do I start with football or do I start with non footballing stuff?
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D
Wherever you want, sir.
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B
So much going on. The goal was gloriously celebrated. I have never been in the ground before. I filmed it. It looked up huge screens in the Velodrome and it said time until kickoff. And I watched it tick for three hours to two hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds.
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C
That's many hours.
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B
That's many hours. So by the time Harvey Barnes scored in the sixth minute, I'd been in the ground for 196 minutes, or something like that. Look, Marseille fans have a terrible reputation and we had this guidance from Newcastle United that basically said tell us you don't want us here without actually saying you don't want us here. Don't come here. Don't wear colors. Don't wear anything that identifies you as your Newcastle fan. You must meet at 4:30 in this square miles away from the ground. And it's a 9 o' clock kickoff, by the way, out here. And apparently those were the conditions. That's the only way you could get tickets. And look, there's an argument with the.
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D
Greatest respect, I think Newcastle fans, whatever they're wearing, will always look like Newcastle fans. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. They have a quite distinct appearance.
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B
Yeah, I think. I think that that is fair. It's a very fair point. But look, that was the only way. These strict arrangements, because of the way Marseille fans are, is the only way you can get tickets. And I sort of. I say, I sort of feel. I feel very strongly if your support base is that idiotic, that that is the only way away fans can visit your ground. That I'm not sure you should have the privilege of being in UEFA competitions. But that's just my view. Look, as early as we were, that was boredom, right? I was bored, but I was safe. We got in early and actually it was quite efficient. We got onto these tubes, they didn't stop bang into the ground. Brilliant. And we were told we would have to wait in the ground afterwards. We told, we held in for an hour or so, or at least an hour. And that is one of the unfortunate accompaniments. It comes with traveling away. It's sad. I don't think it's right, but you know that. But we were expecting a little bit of social mingling. And actually what happened was we were sort of herded into on the steps, huge concrete steps. And after about the people were very patient and we knew it was gonna happen. And after about 90 minutes it started to get a little bit heated and people went, all right, can we actually go now? And then there's a little bit of pushing. Most fans are really patient. A couple were losing their rag a little bit and it turned into what could have been or should have been a really safe situation turned into one that's potentially pretty dangerous, right? And to be clear, this was no full blown riot, right? There was some pepper spray out there was the police had the batons out a little bit. I'm not trying to like over sensational. What I am saying is that those scenarios are tinder boxes, right? And once I'm 6 foot 2 and I can see over the top and there's about 85 kilos of me so I could hold my weight just about. But once it starts moving, you've got no option but to move with the crowd and you lose control of your body very quickly. And if it. And it didn't get to that tipping point, but if it gets to that tipping point, there isn't anything you can do about it. And on my social media, the frustrating thing was I took photos. There was masses of space behind the French police and they just weren't moving at all. And then we got downstairs, the first layer, we got downstairs and you go into this vast chasm. I think it's the coach park for away fans under the ground. And you could probably get 40, 50 coach coaches parked in there. And this is why they didn't hold Newcastle fans there is beyond me. And so I think, luckily there were a few people pepper sprayed, there was some tears and anything like that, it shouldn't happen at football grounds, but it's just another example of actually Marseille fans didn't see them all night. Brilliant atmosphere. The ground's amazing and it tinged it because even though we lost, I'd have said that was a worthwhile trip because that stadium is wonderful, the atmosphere is brilliant. That was European football at its best, but it just took away from it. Everyone just wanted to get home. And then we. I was lucky in that I booked a hotel right next to the square. We were taken, but actually we were talking about safety. They took everyone five or six kilometers out of town. There's no metros, there's no you're trying to get a cab. People then having to walk back to where they'd booked at 2 in the morning in Marseille. So it just. It became a bit of an unsavory experience. 1. I love going to watch my football. The French police, as I said, turned something that should have been pleasant and easy to deal with. There was no sign of trouble. Everyone was in decent spirits and I said, I'm sorry, I'm wittering on here a little bit, but I feel quite strongly about it, that it's just so unnecessary and it. And it took away from you. Remember, we go for joy, right? You go away with your mates to go and watch football. You go and follow your team. It's meant to be brilliant. It's meant to be moments like Harvey Barnes scoring that goal and you go into absolute delirium. It's meant to be moments like Nick Pope having an absolute shocker and just unable to believe what you've just seen. That's fine. I can live with that. I didn't enjoy the rest of it.
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A
No, I mean, I must say I love football, but why anybody would go through that knowing that you have to get there three hours early. I don't know what you do for those three hours, you know, and then knowing that you're gonna, you know, you might be kettled off as, but even held for that long afterwards. I mean, credit to those fans who want to do that, I guess to the game itself. Yes, you kind of alluded to it. Simon says. What on God's green earth was Nick Pope doing all the way out there? It was an amazing. Actually Barry. It was a brilliant finish. I was, I was looking at it thinking, is that like a putt or is it more like one of Those really good 10 bowlers in that, you know when you're awake too late and you're watching USAV Europe 10 pin bowling and they put real curl on it right at the end. That's what it reminded me of.
- [25:32]
D
I don't think I've ever been awake that late.
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A
But I'll take your word. Just me. Is it the Moscone cup or is that pool? I forget.
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D
But anyway it was. I think because of the heat Nick Pope is getting, probably deserved heat for charging out of his area like that. I think the quality of the finish has been overlooked and Pope's heart must have just sank into his boots. But he probably thought he got away with it. But the finish, it. It sort of double swerved as you alluded to there Max, on its way in. And I think it's a brilliant, brilliant goal. You know, a bit of a gift but he had so much work to do to. To get it into the goal from that angle and yeah, you saw him take the little look up and then boom. Brilliant finish.
- [26:25]
A
Sam, you wanted to talk about Nick Pope and whether it's, you know, because Aaron Ramsdale is there too and he is also good. How you feel about Nick Pope's position as your number one?
- [26:34]
B
He is good. He does love a relegation though, doesn't he? Aaron Ramsdale. Nick Pope has been, has been brilliant for Newcastle. This is a. This is where the questions over Eddie Howe and look, I'm not again not trying to over sensationalise things and I understand why like if you lose games as a football manager there has been some criticism and his loyalty to certain players is something that's potentially got him into trouble. Like the Man City game as brilliant as when it was. You can't get over excited about it as a Newcastle fan because actually we're used to beating sides of that ilk at home with those kind of performances. It's the games that follow it. It's the away games. It's these sort of games where we really struggle. And yesterday it was a real mismatch. It was a really poor game actually. There were a lot. It was open and there were a lot of. To use a tennis term, unforced errors. Like there was one point actually and sorry I've gone off Pope where Tino Liveramento over towards their right back late in the first half. Takes a terrible touch and the ball goes out for a throw in. Like he's looked elsewhere and just failed to trap a very easy ball. And then the French, the Marseille right back has done exactly the same thing to give the ball back to us like literally five seconds later. That's a sign of the quality of that game. But like Pope, Pope is a brilliant old school goalkeeper. He is a shot stopper. He has saved Newcastle United many many points in the years he's been here. He's also not a good kicker. And he is a subutio keeper in the sense. Do you remember you have them on the sticks and you can't push them any further out the net. Like he doesn't go beyond his six yard box ever.
- [28:04]
D
He did last night.
- [28:06]
B
To look up and see him. No one can believe it. And if you look back at the video you can see Malik Chao in swing going no get back like what on earth are you doing? And as much as I love Nick Pope, there's a question about evolution. And what does. What do Newcastle need? And I know this might sound a little bit arrogant but that Newcastle and I are trying to improve. And so what you need is a goalkeeper to take you to another level. And you need someone who's able to play football to come out and command that area outside of his area. And look, it was no secret. Newcastle agreed a fee for James Trafford and they pursued him for two years. And the fee was a really big one. In the summer, man City came in and gazumped them. As was their right. They had a right to match. They brought in Ramsdale. He came off the bench at Brentford. He's played a couple of Carabao cup games but that's three away games in a row. Newcastle have been leading. And then suboptimal goalkeeping has led to an equaliser. And that was the biggest howler of them all. And Howe should ever question about who plays at Everton on Saturday. I don't think he will change it. But they really should be question marks over Nick Pope.
- [29:11]
C
Can I put a question to Sam? As a. As a Newcastle United enjoyer and someone who watches them very closely. I was multi screening. But I also got the sense that this was very end to end. And like you say no one could really control the game. It was just. And that is. I feel like a lot of Newcastle games go that way. And oftentimes it suits them when they're at their best. You have a lot of guys who can run in that team and you have a lot of energy and. But for a team that is aspiring to be near the top. Do they need to try to evolve into a team that can control things a little bit more? They can put their foot on the ball and just take the tempo out of things and just like do the thing that City usually does very well and just pass the ball around for five minutes and just control things more. Because it seems to be like. I almost feel like watching a rugby highlight sometimes. It's like loads of people running forwards and then oh no. Now everyone has to run back. And this sort of chaos. If you're going to do 50, 60 games a year. It's not good. Like you can't do that all the time.
- [30:06]
B
Absolutely. And they've been trying to do it for a couple of years. That season we first qualified for the Champions League. No one knew the Newcastle United approach. So it came as a bit of a surprise. So we could do that playing on the counterattack. But then suddenly if you want to be a consistent top four sides. Teams come to you and they shut up shop. And you have to learn to be Man City to be that. And I'm not nowhere near that level. But you have to have those almost boring two goal wins at home to teams in the middle of the table that you don't even think about. They don't even register. You just go. You've got a Champions League game midweek. You've got the side in 12th on a Saturday Sunday. And you just have to go and win the game. And as fun as Newcastle are to watch at times there is that real lack of control. And they've got. There's some limited players there. Right. And you can't knock the limited players. They're playing slightly out of position. They can only do what they can do. The problem Newcastle have is when their top level players don't perform. Which Anthony Gordon had another anonymous game last night. And there's been an argument for a while. He probably shouldn't play through the middle. But Nick Voltimar is so tired that he couldn't start another game. And Bruno Guimades was really poor with the ball last night. He was trying to control it, but he was giving away passes. So yeah, that's absolutely what Newcastle need to do. They spent two years trying to do it. And that's where. And I know people say, oh, Eddie Howe's done a brilliant job and he has. He will always be a legend. And I am not saying. I really am not saying Eddie Howe time is up at all. But he needs to like, find solutions. There has to be a way of getting control in games. And we go one nil up and we don't know what to do. Like the number of leads we've lost. We then sit, we go. Dan Byrne said afterwards, basically it went to plan. So the plan was go get a goal and then just sit back on it. But it was so chaotic that like. Sit back on what? I don't know. It was fun. It was really fun. But I don't think Hal, who's a bit of a control freak, would have enjoyed it at all.
- [31:55]
A
I like the way you talk about evolution of goalkeepers. The idea of the. The seven ages of man. The seven ages of goalkeeper with fatty folk there and Nick Pope somewhere just far too down the left before you get to, you know, your Edison's, you know, right on the right hand side of that picture. Anyway, a heartbreak class for bodo. Glimpsed losing in the last minute to you. They were on the attack in injury time, weren't they? I was one of those last minute winners. They conceded.
- [32:18]
C
Yeah. So when they equalized for the 2:2 right near the end on a penalty, the penalty taker immediately ran into the net to get the ball and sprint back to the center circle. We're going for it. We want to get the win. And I remember thinking that in one way, I love the attitude. I think that's great. If you're a team from Norway and you've equalized against Juventus. Society also went, hang on here, lads. This is. This is a point against Juventus. If you can take a couple of minutes off the clock here. And that's probably one more point than you were expecting against Juventus. So I think that kind of attitude and. And belief and optimism is part of the reason why border glimps have done surprisingly well in Europe often and why they sometimes do surprise these teams because they're not cowed and they're not afraid and they. They do their own thing. But the reality is also they were second best in the second Half here. They were very good in the first half. In the second half, Kenan Yildis came on for Juventus and really changed things. He was very, very, very good, as you can tell. I started watching Chelsea, Barcelona, but then with the red card and Chelsea being in the lead, I thought, interesting things are happening in Norway. So I kind of pivoted to Buddha glimps and unfortunately I pivoted just in time for Juventus to completely take over and be much the better team. Yildiz, like I said, is a very, very good player and Bodeg struggled to deal with him. And they were maybe a little fortunate, actually, to get to 2:2. But then they were attacking like you said they did. They had a chance and they felt they could have had a penalty in the box right towards the end, but instead Juventus counter and made it 3 2. You can never really say for a Norwegian team to not win against Juventus, it's disappointing, but it is one of those late in the year, it's cold, it's an unfamiliar surface. You've got all these little circumstances going your way and you have the recipe there for a very special evening. And they weren't too far off it, but couldn't quite get there in the end. And in hindsight, it is possible that at 2:2, someone should have just sat on the ball and just kind of, yeah, we'll take this point, but there we are.
- [34:21]
D
That was a very important win for Juventus. They only have six points after five games. Once tonight's games finished, there's a very good chance they'll be outside of the qualification places. So if they hadn't snaffled those extra two points at the death, they'd be in big trouble, I think.
- [34:41]
A
Barry, what about Napoli? Two Carabagnel. Another. Another. Good night for Scott McTominay, or as the Tano man says, Scotto. And then waits for McTominay from the crowd.
- [34:51]
D
Yeah, he scored one. He had a big, big hand in Napoli's second, which ended up, I think, I would imagine, being a known goal. And it was a kind of scissors kick which. From McTominay, which led to that own goal. He's getting a taste for those kind of acrobatics now. Napoli were totally dominant in this game, and the Carabag goalkeeper, a fellow called Kachalski, really helped keep the score down. He. He played very well. But another good performance from. From McTominay.
- [35:26]
A
Yeah. Lars Bertha, Dortmund, the highest scorers in the Champions League this season, which is weird because.
- [35:33]
C
Because Dortmund are kind of. They're doing Reasonably well in the Bundesliga but they're doing reasonably well in the sort of. They've gone back to basics a little bit. Like they're not playing the sort of high octane, high pressing thing that we obviously remember from the Jurgen Klopp or even. Even Thomas Tuchel days. Nico Kovacs is kind of a little bit more of a sort of. What's the phrase for that? Sort of. Yeah, he's, he's. He's a coach who likes to get like the basics right first and foremost. And Daishian.
- [36:04]
A
You want to say Daishian maybe not.
- [36:06]
C
That this is what I almost said and then I realized that's taking it a little far. But it is. Yeah, but they've gone to three at the back and they've. It's a proper three at the back as well with. With attacking fullbacks rather than wingers out wide and they've tried to. Let's be more solid. There's been too much chaos at Dortmund the last few years and they're quite solid and they've got Adeyemi and Girassi who are getting them goals up front. But it's not always looked good in, in the Bundesliga and there's the sense that they probably need to evolve if they're going to turn into a team that can challenge Bayern anytime soon. But then like, like you say, the flip side of that is that they're absolutely banging them in in the Champions League which is a little weird here. They were considerably better than. Than VRL I would say. But VRL of course had a. Had a. Had a red card as well with Juan Voyage who. Who handled a goal bound shot and had to go off and it made it fairly straightforward for. For Dortmund. But I'm just here to say I guess that they are maybe not quite as good as the results suggest, but they're quite solid and have a couple of forwards who are doing well.
- [37:08]
A
Ben Vika. One two nil at Ajax. Jose's first win of the group stages. Two brilliant goals actually. And another defeat Barry for. For iax.
- [37:17]
D
Yeah. This is how the mighty have fallen Derby I suppose. Both of them going into this game with no points. Johnny Hettinger has been. Was sacked by Ajax a few weeks ago. One of their former goalkeepers, a Champions League winner with them. I think fellow called Fred Grim is in temporary charge. He learned at the knee of Johan Cruyff and Louis Van Hal. But things aren't going well for him at Ajax. They're six in the Dutch league, 14 points behind leaders. PSV they're closer to the bottom than they are the top and they're. Well, they're. They won't qualify now. I mean, they weren't going to qualify anyway, but it's remarkable how bad they are. They have. I suppose their only plus point for them is they. They have a fellow called Rayan Boynida, a 19 year old. He looked pretty impressive from what I saw of this game, which was most of it. It was one of the early kickoffs and Benfica now have three points on the board, but they're probably going to need 12 to qualify. That's what you needed to guarantee qualification for the knockouts. Last season, 11 did it for one or two teams, but in 12 will probably definitely get you through. And their final three games are against Napoli, Juventus and Real Madrid. So good luck with that, Jose.
- [38:48]
A
Good luck, Jose. Union Sanji was 1 1. Galatasaro, their first home defeat in 34 games. And Slavia Prague nil. Athletic Club, nil. And the games tonight, Arsenal, Bayern, psg, Spurs, Liverpool, psv, amongst others. We'll cover them on tomorrow's pod. And that'll do for part two. Back in a second where we'll talk about Man United, Everton.
- [39:10]
D
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- [39:35]
B
Audio for 20% off your first purchase.
- [39:36]
D
That's b-bas.com and use code audio.
- [39:48]
A
Welcome to Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So on Monday night, Manchester United Neil Everton won, which doesn't tell the entire story. I mean, we have to start Sam with Indrissa Gay being sent off for slapping Michael Keane in the face and David Moyes saying, do you know something? I quite like it when my players have a fight. I mean, obviously I suspect he would have said something slightly different if United romped to victory. But there we are. It was a very. It's happened before, obviously, famously for Newcastle. A bit more fisticuffs than that, but it is always funny. I remember Paul Rayner being sent off for headbutting Mick Heathcote in a six nil defeat at Griffin Park. For the use. That was a disappointing moment. But yeah, what a hilarious moment, I think, Sam.
- [40:30]
B
I mean, yeah, I'm sure David Moyes had the cameras pan to him. They probably did. He wasn't laughing at that point. But yeah, to go to Old Trafford with his history there and win despite that. I think it's the first time a team's won in the Premier League at old Trafford with 10 men and they had 10 men for a long, long time. Like a really long time. Like slapping. He has to get sent off. Enter the laws of the game. But if you're going to go right, if you're going to get sent off for slapping your own teammate, at least leave a mark, right? You just want to see Michael Keane with a big old red. You want the camera to pan in on one of those, like red slap marks. Because it was just a little tickle. It's just madness. And yeah, of course, the. The natural ways a Newcastle fan add to most Premier League fans goes back to Kieran Dyer and Lee Bowyer properly scrapping back in. I think it's 04. People forget that game. It was also the game Steven Taylor went down. He rolled around like an actor pretending he'd be. Yes.
- [41:27]
A
Yeah, he.
- [41:27]
B
It was a handball. He pretended he'd been shot in the face by the football. It's just hilarious. But it's weird to the date. That was a really unfortunate fortnight for Newcastle. Shearer was meant to retire at that season and the day before he's announced a new contract. And Newcastle have an FA cup semi final coming up and a European UEFA cup quarterfinal against Lisbon.
- [41:50]
C
And.
- [41:50]
B
And then. So everyone's buzzing on that Friday, Saturday, those two idiots do that. Steven Taylor gets suspended. I think we lose the next three league games. We did beat Lisbon at home, one nil. Then Lauren Robert falls out of Graham Souness on the coach about 10 days later. So he doesn't play in the second leg. We get battered, I think 4:1. And then we get. When the FA cup was at Cardiff and we basically lost to Manchester United 4 1. And Nikki Butt was at Newcastle at that point and he spent about 20 minutes afterwards just going around applauding the Manchester United fans, which went down like an absolute sandwich, as you can imagine. I think he was on loan at Birmingham the following season quite swiftly. But yeah, so there's a warning for Everton fans. Right. When your players have a fight with each other within the space of two weeks, things can really unravel. So I'm going to say I hope I don't that doesn't happen to them. But actually I do because Newcastle go to Everton on Saturday. But yeah, that could be the start, the sign of things to come.
- [42:42]
A
Yeah, I mean, it was felt different. Lars didn't it to that and to Batty and Lasso, which really felt like these are two that absolutely hate each. This has been boiling up for years and years. Whereas you imagine Michael Keaton and just a guard again, probably. You know, in fact, what was really funny was David Moyes saying that Gay's teammates applauded when he stood in front of the group and apologized. Like a standing ovation.
- [43:04]
C
Yeah, again. Again, probably not something that would have happened if they lost 4 0. So, I mean, there's an element of that in there. But I, you know, I followed some of the discourse following this and then I, I understand, like in terms of the laws of the game, they're completely unequivocal. Like, if you strike someone, the face off the ball, like, it doesn't matter if it's a teammate, it doesn't matter. Like, once you do that, you're off. Like, there's no room for maneuver there at all. But I'm somewhat sympathetic to the. The voices and many of them were ex pros who I don't often agree with, who were saying, this is kind of like, do you need to take a guy off for this? Like, this is like almost like an internal squabble. It's not an egregious, violent act of horror that's occurred. Is it really that much worse than someone just pushing him? Like, as Michael Keane just goes. Because they were having a bit of an argument and Keane just kind of pushed him to just naff off, like, go back into where you're supposed to stand. And he had a reaction and gave him a bit of a slap. Like, there's a big side of me that thinks maybe that you don't need to completely change the flow of the game for that. But then there is a more rational side of it that thinks, okay, one of the rules of this sport is that you have to go 90 minutes without slapping a co worker. It feels like a bar you should be in. In most jobs, that's something you have to be able to do to function. It's not completely unreasonable to ask them to be able to do that.
- [44:29]
D
I mean, I've seen boxers go several rounds without even laying a glove on their opponent. And that's what they're supposed to be doing in the workplace.
- [44:38]
B
Do you think we'd manage it?
- [44:40]
C
Because we're Remote now. I mean if we were in the same studio, clearly there would have been a lot of slapping in this podcast.
- [44:45]
A
I don't know, I feel like I've done a lot of shows in studios, certainly with Barry and at no point have we got come close to coming to blows. There is a famous moment, I think it's a guy called Patrick Kinghorn and Tony Cascarino on Talksport where they have a row and I think Cass punches him. It's all went out on air. It's like an amazing, amazing moment in the history of that radio station. But yeah, as yet I've never felt the need to punch Barry in the face during a broadcast. I mean what, what that, that, that moment Barry has kind of taken away from the fact that Manchester United lost this game and it kind of. Of all the balloons that are punctured. The man United are back to be beaten at home by Everton. A 10 man Everton is just classic puncture balloon.
- [45:29]
D
Yeah, they were hopeless. I think the only Manu player who emerges from that game would any sort of credit is Ahmed Diallo. The rest of them just didn't seem to know what to do. Whenever it went down to 10 men. Reuben Amaram. So they're playing a team reduced to 10 men with a striker who can't couldn't score in a knocking shop with a blank check and they're still playing three at the back and no change. They bumble around ineffectively for the entirety of the game. Lose deservedly. So I think the only chances. No, Pickford did have to make some saves but they were for pot shots from distance. He's well able for them. Reuben Amarim was questioned afterwards by a baffled press pack. Why didn't you do something? Change things around and I don't change things around. This is what we are making but in a Portuguese accent and I don't think that's good enough really because if that's. If you're determined to play that way and you can't be 10 man Everton @ home then sorry. But he seems to be have free reign to do what he wants from the club hierarchy. I'm happy for him to stick around because I, I like him, I like listening to him and I like watching to see how much gas is in this particular explosion. Yeah, I think and, and Everton deserve credit for digging in and getting the win because as soon as United or as soon as they went down to 10 men I thought oh well, that's it, they're going to lose this game.
- [47:14]
A
Great goal from Juice before And Pickford did make one, I think one really good save from Xerxy. And as producer Joel says, like, when Pickford's having a good game, he's really fun to watch, isn't he? Do you like the idea that how many Everton players would have to beat each other up and get sent off? Off from Ruben Amarim to, to go back with a back four and like put someone else up front? We don't know. Anyway, Elliot says if I get told off at work, should I just try and book in a dinner with Donald Trump to make it all okay? So, yes, shortly after meeting the Donald Trump, Ronaldo's had his red card for the elbow and Daro Shea suspended for a year, meaning he'll be able to play at next summer's World cup finals. Violent conduct normally carries a three match ban. Ronaldo has had the second and third matches suspended after sitting out the game against Armenia. A fever statement said if Cristiano Ronaldo commits another infringement of a similar nature and gravity during the probationary period, the suspension set out and the disciplinary decision shall be deemed automatically revoked and the remaining two matches must be served immediately. Massive lull, Lars. I mean, it's, it is FIFA not fit for purpose, but also not great news for Portugal because they'd be better if he wasn't playing. Conclusion.
- [48:22]
C
Yeah, no, that's pretty much it. Like, it's pathetic, but it's what we expect from Gianni and Fantino's FIFA at this point, just upholding the laws of the game would seem like, again, a very low bar for the sort of ruling authority of the game to do. But it's not something they've not managed to do because we must have Vegas Elvis at this event. And it is odd because the trend seems to be with him at international tournaments, that he'll score a couple in the group stage typically, and then when they come up against someone good, the fact that they're effectively playing with 10 men, it becomes a problem for Portugal. So at least he's there in the group stage to score a couple of goals past some kind of inferior opponents. And then the question is then, is it possible for Roberto Martinez to drop him? The issue, I, I honestly think on the issue of this band being taken away, I thought they were gonna have to do something cleverer than that. I thought they were gonna have to come up with some sort of general amnesty for all bands or something just to make it look like they weren't just doing this to get Ronaldo in. But this is, again, this is Janny's FIFA, they're quite brazen. They're like, no, we just. We. We know what we saw. But, you know, we want the. We want Vegas Elvis to be at the event. So there he is. And it's. It's. Yeah, it's. It's. It's not. I was always going to say that it is remarkable, but it is not remarkable because this is what FIFA are.
- [49:44]
B
Now, there's a line in the FIFA statement, I think, that says Ronaldo's good behavior in the. Like, he's played 226 international games, and this is his first offense. So that was taken into account. Like, it's. It's not a parole hearing. I just thought it was mandatory free game ban. Well, you haven't had a red card for. You played international football for so long. Like, it's just entirely predictable.
- [50:08]
A
Ronaldo sits in front of the parole committee like Morgan Freeman in Shawshank and just goes, bullshit. Just sign your form, fella, and I'll take it together. And they go, hey, sustained. Off you go. You can go and meet the rest of your squad. You know, polishing a boat in Mexico, I mean, it's just so totally. But the statement is so, like, officious, isn't it? To show how really angry they are, the thought that Cristiano Ronaldo now has to walk around if he touches anything with his elbow for the next year, he's banned for the next two games. He sort of straps himself in a straight jacket so he can't. It's absolutely ridiculous.
- [50:42]
D
It does. It's funny. I mean, the brazenness of it is funny, but it sets a dangerous precedent. So what if someone gets a red card in a semi final that they deserve in the World cup semi final, a star player, does he get an amnesty? Does he get a reprieve? Yeah, it's not surprising. And I think everyone finds it amusing because it'll be so obviously detrimental to Portugal. Roberto Martinez is probably going, sake.
- [51:12]
A
But also there are, you know, there are these playoffs in UEFA and that sort of the. The, you know, the confederations 1. Right. Someone may get sent off. Well, a Wales player or an Italian or whoever. And then suddenly they go, well, hang on, I want a suspended sentence, please. It does. You know, so you're right. I mean, I agree. It's simultaneously funny and just the sign of just how not fit for purpose. FIFA, for so many reasons. Should we talk about in the box? We didn't talk about it on Monday. So, Sky Sports, who did? Halo, which we haven't really spoken about because it launched and then died sort of between a Thursday and a Monday pod, which was a sort of social account aimed for female fans, but it was mocked for being very patronizing. In the Box was launched in the North London Derby. 4 Celebrity Arsenal and Spurs fans, including Gary Lineker. I saw Ozzy ardiles and Michael McIntyre, but I didn't see Lineker there. I didn't watch a lot of it. And the idea being they're four Tottenham fans on one side of four Arsenal fans on the other. We haven't discerned who the Arsenal fans are. There was an old woman and some YouTubers, a YouTuber called Chris Maryland, who's probably incredibly famous.
- [52:17]
D
Why are you presuming the old woman wasn't a YouTuber? Well, that's very ageist of you.
- [52:23]
A
She's. I had her as a Redditor, you know, but anyway. Or a Facebook star, I don't know. But they're shown highlights from the game but not the result. Right. And then the result just comes on at the end. So I mean, for a start, how do you show those highlights in any way which is going to lead to any surprise? That game between Arsenal tonnes, we're talking about an XG of 0.01.
- [52:48]
C
I.
- [52:48]
B
What.
- [52:48]
A
What could you possibly show to make anyone think that Arsenal haven't won that game?
- [52:53]
B
But.
- [52:54]
A
But this is odd. I mean, we are not the target market. But neither really Old woman and Carry Minica. Maybe they are.
- [53:02]
C
What is the target market for this? Who is this for?
- [53:06]
D
Well, I think it was on YouTube. It was free to air. It's fine. I have no great objections to sky putting this on, but I'm presuming, and I could be wrong, that all these people, or at least some of these people were very well paid for their time. We. We want you to not watch the game. What's his name? McIntyre and Lineker. That. That's a list. Top tier celebrity.
- [53:36]
A
That is tens of thousands of pounds. That is. That would have cost. Yeah. Tens of thousands of pounds to get them.
- [53:43]
D
While I don't want to sound like one of those license payers who thinks because I pay for TV license that allows me to dictate the entire television schedule, but Sky Sports subscriptions are incredibly expensive and they're going up and up and up and up and just to be paid for this shite, I do feel a slight sense of grievance.
- [54:10]
A
The question is, does it make any difference? Make any difference because. Because Obviously whenever Michael McIntyre is in the crowd at spurs, you get Cutaways so you can see what Michael McIntyre looks like when he can see the game. Does it make any difference when you can see what Michael Matt looks like when he can't see what's happening in the game?
- [54:26]
B
If it's on YouTube, isn't it free? Anyway, so, like, they're shelling out and we're paying our subscription fee and we're not even. It's not even exclusive content to me as a Sky Sports subscriber. They used to. Do you remember back. It was it back in the 90s, they did that, like fan zone commentary. They used to have two fans in a box doing it. That was fun. Yeah, that was fun.
- [54:44]
A
Yeah.
- [54:45]
B
This doesn't sound. Well, I've not seen it.
- [54:47]
D
It really was.
- [54:48]
A
I didn't. I think you love it, but I didn't love it, but it had a sort of cachet, has a nostalgia to it now. And it has the famous. You know, Tim Lovejoy did it when Ray Parlor in the FA Cup Final game, it's only Ray Parlor, you know, and then he put it in the top corner.
- [55:00]
C
So as a concept, it reminds me a little bit of the scene in the Thick of It, when they're in the back of the taxi and they have to think of some kind of policy they can put out that will be popular, that won't really cost anything and that won't really achieve anything. They just need to put some kind of policy out there. And I just feel like, put celebrities in a room and don't show them the game feels like we really have gone through a lot of. Like, as someone who's trying to make a living in this sort of industry, I'm entirely in favor of broadcasters just putting any old shit together and just paying people to do it. Like, I'm available to be in the box, guys. I'm not gonna knock it. But just as a concept, how far down the list of ideas were you when you arrived at put people in the room and don't show them the game? What were the ideas we decided to.
- [55:49]
A
Not do, actually, just for the record, you know, if ever I make a triumphant return to the UK and Sky need a host, I'm very much available.
- [55:58]
D
I am also available to be in the box. Box, having just disparaged the box to within an inch of its life. If I'm getting McIntyre money, there are.
- [56:10]
A
Many football matches, Barry, that you actually don't want to see, aren't there? Like, you know, you could give them a whole list of games to say, these are all the games I don't want to see. Put me in a box, please. Maybe to tell me the score. I don't need to know the score.
- [56:26]
D
Yeah, just once the game is over, don't, maybe don't, don't tell me the score and just open the box and I'll leave. I'll be fine. Or else show me the score. I'll just shrug my shoulders and leave.
- [56:43]
A
Anyway, that'll do for today. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Sam.
- [56:48]
B
You're welcome. Thanks, Max.
- [56:49]
A
Thank you, Lars.
- [56:50]
C
I think this is what we've needed for the Football Weekly TikTok to really take off stuff. It's Barry in a box, not watching football. Get the clips out there, I believe.
- [57:00]
D
Sounds idyllic.
- [57:02]
A
Would I have a book?
- [57:03]
D
A good book?
- [57:06]
C
Many suggestions.
- [57:09]
A
What did you think of the game, Barry? And he just says, I don't know. I was in a box. Thank you very much. Also on the panel, John Brewin. Anyway, right, that'll do for today. I've already said that. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Barry.
- [57:21]
D
Thanks.
- [57:22]
A
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens. We'll be back tomorrow. This is the Guardian. Hey, it's Mark Maron from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well. Choose progressives. Name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it@progressive.com and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.