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Football Weekly
Is Xabi Alonso’s time up at Real Madrid? – Football Weekly Extra
00:52:23
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Mark Langdon, Philippe Auclair and Sid Lowe as Manchester City’s win at Real Madrid piles the pressure on Xabi Alonso
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A
This is the Guardian.
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B
I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. And on not just the Tudors from history hit. We do, admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry viii, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that's not Tudors. Murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the tit already. So follow not just the Tudors from history hit wherever you get your podcasts.
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A
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Is it time up for Xabi Alonso? Defeat to Manchester City in the Champions League isn't a disaster, but the writing is on the wall, apparently for the new Real Madrid manager. Are the egos of real players just too big to listen to, tactics too good to press? Newcastle are minutes away from a big win in Leverkusen, while Arsenal win again. Some goals from Mad wake here. Martinelli too. We'll round up the rest of the Champions League action before a Premier League preview. The Tynwear Derby is back and we'll leave plenty of time for Philippe to get stuck into the World cup draw. The ticket prices, drinks, breaks and the ethics committee. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Week. Clean.
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On the panel today, Barry Glendenning.
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C
Hello.
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D
Hi, Max.
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A
From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon.
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E
Hi, Max.
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A
Bonjour.
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C
Sava.
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A
Philippe Auclair.
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F
Sava. Trabien. Max. Bonjour.
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A
Bonjour. And hola. Come estas, Sid Lowe.
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Poor part uno solamente. Anyway, right, let's start at the bird of our then. Real Madrid 1, man, City 2. Another loss of Real Madrid 1. Winning their last five in the league, Sid. Their worst run in four and a half years. And I mean, he was telling me yesterday, Alonso's basically gone. Which on the outside seems kind of mad.
- [02:01]
C
Yeah, but it's Real Madrid and, and it's. And it's the nature of it. And I think you've got to look slightly beyond the results to, to. To the mechanics within the dressing room, to the way that they're playing to the. To the level of performance, to the kind of tensions that you always get at Real Madrid on Sunday night after they were beaten by Celta Vigo. And they weren't just beaten, they were. They were pulled about the pitch by Celto. It was really fascinating to watch, actually. There was a meeting at the. Well, long into the night, plenty of the people around, the president feeling like maybe it's not a bad idea that he gets sacked. There was an inclination to do that then, but there was a Decision to. To hold on in part, to kind of allow, I suppose, this game to be a sort of a judgment, if you like, upon them. And the difficult thing now is that this game is slightly inconclusive because you can take a step back from this. And of course, this is what was happening partly last night and say, well, now this is against Manchester City, who are very, very strong team. You lose 2, 1 to. To debatable penalty. We can. It doesn't really matter whether it's debatable, but, you know, it wasn't so clear cut as to say. As to say, wow, you know, you got absolutely battered. You hit the bar in the last minute, going for a comeback. There was a bit of a reaction from the team. They've got eight players missing through injury. And so you can. You can create a kind of, if you like, a. A positive narrative around it. But it's still only now two wins in the last eight games. They've got two more before Christmas. I think I'm right in saying they go away to Alaves this weekend and then play against Sevilla, plus a Coppola Rey game, which they really shouldn't lose against third tier team Talavera, which is about an hour south. And so there's a huge amount of pressure there. Is that pressure there because of all of those elements and in particular, of course, because the fault lines are showing and the fault lines are showing and of course it's always much, much easier, and particularly at a club like Real Madrid, to replace a manager and replace players. I'm going to strip this down to the most simple thing imaginable, which is, if you like, the kind of. The mindset that underpins this. And the most simple thing imaginable in terms of that mindset is there's only one Vinicius, but there are loads of managers out there.
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A
Right? Is that simple? I mean, is it just about him? Because this idea. There's this sort of very oversimplified idea that, you know, Real Madrid players are just. They've got such massive egos that they just want to be given a ball and say, off you go. Which is sort of what. Which is sort of debasing how good Ancelotti was. Unless that's what he did. Right.
- [04:19]
C
I think it does debase Ancelotti and I think, you know, it's kind of incumbent upon it to not always go down that route, but there is a temptation to do that. And if you look at the managers that have been really successful over the last, I mean, I think you can go back almost 30 years. And you look at the managers that have been really successful is that for the most part they've been managers with what it's always known in Spanish as having a left hand, that ability to engage with the dressroom. There's a lovely phrase that Vicente del Bosque came up with once, which sums it up quite nicely, I think, which is, he said, in part, the secret is making the think it was their idea, you know, that, that you don't sort of impose upon them, you provide a framework through which they work, you give them a degree of freedom. Now, I, I think the problem is, of course, that. That leads to this idea that, oh, it's. The players are all lazy, they don't want to run around. And I think obviously they do want to run around, they do want to compete, they do want to do things, but there is that kind of element of, of freedom and self status as well as team status and the, some of the things that you have to do. And of course, the, the, the big contradiction at the heart of this or, or the big problem at the heart of this is Shabby Alonso was brought in precisely on this basis, that here's a systems coach, here's a coach that will give them a structure, because we shouldn't forget that while Carti was enormously successful last year, Real Madrid were absolutely disastrous and it just fell apart. And so you get this natural thing, I suppose, of searching for the thing you haven't got. And so this decided, well, what Shabby Alonso will do will be bring structure. And imagine these players, but with a structure, imagine how good it could be. But, but then you've got to encourage some of these players or make some of these players do some of the things that. It's not so much that they don't want to do it, because that makes it sound really simple, like they've just gone, nah, run around not doing that. But, you know, they don't naturally do that. It's not their natural inclination. The pieces don't naturally fit together. I also think there's some holes in the squad. They don't have a midfield playmaker, they don't have Subie Mendy, who Xabi Alonso really, really wanted them to have. But here they are in this. What would you call it, in this rut, I suppose.
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A
Yeah, I suppose it's hard to make Vinicius or whoever, you know, think. I don't, I don't know if Xabulonzo likes inverting fullbacks. This is your idea, like to make him come in one day and say, hey, lads, I've got a great idea. You know, why don't, why don't we press on the B of the bang or whatever? Is there a bit of a, like a vacuum of leadership within the dressing room? If you think of like in the last few years of losing Ramos and Cruz and Modric and those players that might. I mean, you'd imagine Modric was just like a great example in a dressing room, but like players that were of that level, that even if there was discontent within the ranks, it wouldn't bubble beyond a sort of certain level.
- [06:50]
C
Even. Even Cristiano Ronaldo. Now, Cristiano Ronaldo, obviously, a lot is often made of, of. Of his kind of self. Of sense. Sorry, his sense of self worth and how, how much of it is about him. But that. Could you. I mean, you just use the word example. There's no better example than him in terms of professionalism, in terms of determination, in terms of a kind of a will to, to win and be really, really relentless about it. I think if you look in the dressing room now, you do sort of wonder about some of those, some of those personalities. Danny Carvajal is the really obvious example, but he's been injured a lot over the last year or so. Leadership goes beyond just the personality. I think it goes. It's about the play as well. So with someone like Tony Cruz, you can give him the ball and you play from there, or he can take responsibility for leading to play. You look at Real Madrid and, and you know, this is a ridiculous thing in a way to say, because it sounds dismissive of footballers who are very, very good, but let's say it. Where's the central midfielder? Where's that? Where's the person who actually makes them play? There kind of isn't one that, you know, that takes the responsibility, responsibility to, to construct all that. Last night they ended up playing Danny Tobias. And again, with the risk of sounding dismissive of the bias, this is the one midfielder who's actually a bit of a. A kind of run the game kind of player, A bit of a keep the ball moving player, a bit of a impose a style on. On you type of player. And yet it's Danny Tobias who they've tried with over many years and never quite ever felt like they were entirely convinced by.
- [08:11]
A
So whose fault is that? Who is that Alonso or is that Florentino Perez? That's a recruitment problem.
- [08:16]
C
That particular part of it, of course, is about. Is about hierarchy. It's about finance as well. And I think One of the things that we sometimes forget is that Real Madrid, although they do spend a lot of money, actually don't spend very much money. You look over the last few years they've been really quite cautious with how much they've spent. There's been a handful of really big signings this summer. In fact, in part you could say they signed big money on the kind of players they wouldn't normally do. Dean Howson and Alvara Carreras cost a lot of money and they're not the kind of players that Real Madrid would normally go for. But that central midfield piece which Xavier Lonson would very much have liked to have been Martin Fubamendi they didn't bring in.
- [08:49]
A
So what happens now?
- [08:50]
C
That's exactly the question we're all asking ourselves. Last night, Last night it feels like it puts, puts the, slows things down a bit. It means that there isn't an imminent sacking in theory, but the, the, the underlying things are still there. Now I think part of this of course is about how you're acting, whether or not you can get and show. You also said something last night. Now, now obviously this may well be wishful thinking and of course the decision isn't his. He says everything passes, everything goes in the end, everything you get through everything. And I suppose there will be that, that, that sense from him. And what if I can get the players to respond and some of the players last night, you know, were queuing up, maybe they have to publicly to say that, you know, we're behind the manager. I thought Al Rillian Shin's pre match press conference was very, very clear defense of the manager. And I thought actually a sincere one. You know, it's our fault we're the ones not doing some of these things. But then you have to ask yourself whether they ever really can with consistency with the kind of players they've got with the, with the, with the approach that some of those players have with the structure that Chevy Lonson is trying to put in place. And also then again that question about Chevy Alonso's ability or not to engage with those players to, to seek empathy with connection with them and, and bring them on board. But last night you got players defending the manager. Last night you got a response at least for 20 minutes at the start or 25 minutes at the start and 20 minutes maybe at the end and you got a sense that maybe there can be a reaction. The problem is let's go back a week. So a week ago real go away to Athletic Club. They play really well they win away at Salmes, the stadium that's kind of, you know, the most, most mythologized in the whole of Spain. And everyone goes, oh, there you go, something to build on. It's happened. They fixed their problems, you know, they've sought accommodation, they've got together. They said, listen, we're all in this together, even if there's been issues before, come on, we, you know, we're all in the same boat. And they beat them ever since. This is great. Okay. This is the beginning, if you like, of things being calmed down and they go back to the Bernabeu and they get absolutely battered by Celta.
- [10:38]
F
I know we have to move on to Manchester City at some point because they also played that game apparently. But before that, several things. First thing, when you talk about the left hand, I love the expression, is that like the left hand of the conductor, because you use the right hand to beat time and use the left hand to cajole the players.
- [10:54]
C
You know what?
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F
I don't know, because that could be an explanation.
- [10:57]
C
I don't know why that is. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you've thrown that up because actually that's. That is quite a nice explanation.
- [11:02]
F
So that's one thing. The second thing, I don't know if it's talked a lot about in Spain, but there was one moment yesterday which for me encapsulated what was wrong with that Real Madrid team. And I thought almost of it in sort of existential terms. On one hand you had Manchester City, for all their brittleness and their youth, they were existing. They were the being and Real Madrid were nothingness. It was like Jean Paul Sartre, you know, being in nothingness. And they were nothingness. And the best way to illustrate that 59th minute, really promising situation. Vinicius gets the ball. Rodrygo has got about 20 yards of space on the right hand side. And I'm there and I'm almost screaming at the screen and I'm thinking, he doesn't want to pass him the ball. He's going to hold on to the ball. And he did. And the result is that what was a clear cut opportunity, Rodrigo, especially in the form that he was in, in that game, goes on, the would have beaten Tonarum and there's absolutely no doubt about that. But he waited and waited and waited. And by the time he gave the pass, because he really had no other choice, he. It was too late. And I was wondering if people were talking about this as well, because for me, when I watched it, I thought he doesn't want to pass the ball to him. There's a problem here. Am I just being like paranoid conspiracy, typical Real Madrid conspiracist?
- [12:28]
C
No, I think there has been a lot of talk about players not wanting to seek out certain types of passes, but there's not been a huge amount of discussion about it specifically between Vinicius and Rodrigo. Rodrigo's barely played by the way. When he scored last night was the first time he scored in 33 games. Partly because he hasn't been playing very minutes, many minutes in those games. And he was a player that in the summer the club were trying to move on because they thought there was a market for him. They didn't blame at all during the club World cup in part to try and send him a message. But Chavil also thought that he could be useful but he really hasn't played and he hasn't played in part of course because you've got. He would prefer to play on the left hand side. I know he played on the right last night and he played very well there. And actually I think it's possibly is where he's best. But Vinicius, Mbappe, Rodrigo, even Bellingham to some extent sort of drift all to the same side of the pitch. That's part of it as well. I think there is a distribution of space question. I also think there's a mechanical thing on. On that and the. The possibility that it's not so much not wanting to play the passes. There just isn't kind of, if you like a. A natural immediacy of seeing those passes of. Of knowing that this is the structure, this is where it goes. And. And I think that's actually quite important. There's a moment and it's almost around about the time you're talking about in the second half of a and it would be around about the hour where Ram did are playing the ball around in midfield and then it kind of goes back to the defense and it comes around the back and it goes back into midfield again and they're looking to sift. It's a ball forward and it doesn't happen. So the ball comes back again and the fans started whistling. And I think what we saw there was the frustration of a season in which everybody has seen that when realm you can go up and run and when a team offers some space to run behind because you've got players as quick as an Mbappe who admitted he didn't play yesterday and Vinicius you can go beyond people and run out people, which is what happened In Bilbao. But when Real Madrid have been in a position in which they've had to construct an attack, they've had nothing this season, genuinely nothing. There's a. There's a phrase that doesn't work particularly well in English, but the Spanish use all the time, which is. Which is Real Madrid don't play at anything. There's no idea. There's no structure. What are they, what are they playing at? What is it that they are doing? And the answer for so much this season has been nothing.
- [14:30]
A
I like the idea of Jean Paul. Such a ringing talk sport. You know, Jean Paul's online too. What's your. It's all about everything and nothingness, Brian. That's what it is anyway. And everything passes. Which is also what Mark Langdon says on Boxing Day after, after a meat field Christmas Day. What did you. Mark, what did you make of this from a City point of view, this game?
- [14:50]
E
Well, I think from a City point of view, when you think about how they were outclassed in sort of the, in the Bernabeu last season, it was an embarrassment really, that they were Real Madrid. Even if Real Madrid weren't at their best, City were distant second in that tie over the 180 minutes. And for them to have taken such a big step forward, I think will have really pleased Pep Guardiola. I've not been sure about them in the biggest games. I would say sort of this new team, but actually they, they feel like they, they're growing and definitely that left hand side is really exciting. O'Reilly keeps on running, can come inside. Very good. Technically, Sid was saying, you know, Real Madrid haven't got any passage. You feel like O'Reilly actually could go and play in central midfield and kind of run a game in midfield, but he's doing it from left back. And Doku, a player that's been inconsistent, I think it's fair to say in his time at City, the way he's adding that just that final bit to his play, I think he's really exciting for, you know, as far as Pep Guardiola looking towards that second half of the season.
- [15:57]
A
Now, Jamie says, on a scale of Ronnie Corbett to Bundiaki, how good would Antonio Rudiger be at rugby? I mean, it's interesting, Barry, that Sid said it wasn't a blatant penalty. I mean, it looked pretty blatant. Wasn't the first time in his career. Wasn't the first time in the game, actually. I think the O'Reilly goal, like if you look in the background, Rudiger's like, you know, got his arms all over somebody.
- [16:14]
D
It was a penalty. It was an undeniably foul. But again, it's one of those ones that's often ignored by officials. On this occasion, it wasn't. I think referees now have decided that if. If a cross is going towards the player who gets bundled over, then they will give a penalty. If it isn't, they won't. So if. If it had been someone behind Hal and getting bundled over, it probably there would have been no foul given. But, yeah, it was. It was a penalty. No, no question.
- [16:49]
C
I think Max is something to be said about Antonio Rudiger, at the risk of sounding sort of very. What's the word? Very. Kind of very direct and sort of very nasty about him. Rudiger over the last few years at Real Madrid, and for a lot of the time, rightly so, has been celebrated as. This is this incredible, imposing center back of character and attitude and aggression and all the rest of it. But in particular, he's been celebrated as this madman. Like the sort of. The dark things he does or the really aggressive things, the hyper aggressive things he does have been celebrated as el loco. And over the last year or so, I feel like that needs to be rethought a little bit, because he's a liability, and he's a liability in part precisely because of that. Now, most of the time he plays really well, but it's precisely these kind of mad moments. And look at him, what a sort of, you know, what a kind of crazy character he is.
- [17:47]
A
He can't live with him, can't live without him type guy.
- [17:49]
C
Well, exactly. There is a bit of that. There is a bit of that. It's those moments that cost them. So you take this panel last night. Was there really a need for that? This player who we go, oh, look at him. He'll grapple with everyone, he'll fight everyone, he'll face up to everyone. He'll. He'll go flying in on challenges. And he. As long as you're getting away with that, everyone thinks it's amazing. And he's got the character you love, but that puts you on a knife edge. And then, for example, the moment yesterday when he could have got the second yellow card if he'd got the second yellow card for that challenge where he comes across, which basically happens because he's a bit slow to get there, but is. But it feels like he's determined to do the sort of the hard man act.
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F
I don't.
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C
I don't know. I. I feel like with him, there's a risk of him tipping over to the other side. If you sort of mean well, we've.
- [18:32]
A
Got you a couple of other Spanish bits that Athletic drew nil. Nil with psg, they needed to win and PSG had a lot of chance in this game. But Villarreal lost to Copenhagen. They are out of the Champions League, 35th position. Someone have two teams who are out domestically. They've won six in a row and a third one point behind Real Madrid. So how, how do we square all of that?
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C
Well, on the face of it, it's very difficult to explain. I would argue a little bit with Villarreal that Villarreal are an unusually consistent team. Admittedly, this isn't 100% borne out by the Champions League, but I think it sort of is. I think they're an unusually consistent team in that they are a team that don't really have enormous highs and lows. So they're very strong, they're very well organized. You never, you rarely watch them and think, wow, what an amazing team. But you watch them rip repeatedly and think what a strong team they are. And by the logic, what I mean by that is they beat everyone they should beat, but they don't beat everyone they shouldn't beat or anyone they shouldn't beat. And I think in a way what's happened, the Champions League is here's just sort of a level again. Now, the reason why I say that doesn't entirely stand up is because, correct me if I'm wrong, Copenhagen and Paphos, those are games they should win. But for example, when they were beaten by City, who I thought were much, much better away at Via than they were yesterday at the Bernabeu, you just thought, wow, they're just, they're just nowhere near as good. Just, they're just not on this same level at all. It's worth. They've also got a goalkeeper who's made some fairly significant errors.
- [19:54]
A
Just before you go, Sid, who gets the Real Madrid job, then Zidane back.
- [19:57]
C
Haha, well, that's part of the problem. See, you get in this position, say, well, change the manager, okay, who's going to take over? And now they've got some internal candidates. They've got Solari, who's still sort of hanging around there at the club as a kind of all round faulting, advisory type person. You've got Alvaro Arbolo, who's the head of the B team, who in theory is one of shabby Alonso's mates. But I mean, I suppose that doesn't necessarily stop you taking the first team job. Zidane's name always comes up. But Zidane, well, you correct me if I'm wrong, Philippe, but Zidane, it feels like very much just, just waiting for his chance to take France. And also it's forgot on this, by the way. And this actually speaks to everything we're talking about Zidane, when he left Real Madrid last time, left with an open letter saying he was leaving because he wasn't supported, he wasn't given authority, wasn't backed and he kept getting undermined by the club.
- [20:40]
E
Sid, do you not think sort of Iriola could.
- [20:43]
F
Would he?
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E
Is he just not a big enough name to be Real Madrid manager?
- [20:47]
C
Do you know what it's. Yeah, I mean, I think. And actually there, I think there are doubts within the game about whether Idola is a manager to go to a different type of team. If you sort of mean. There's no doubt that he's very much admired in spade, but he's not someone that gets talked about in Spain. One of the other things that happens, and actually this happened a little bit with Xavier Alonso, is of course you have people around the president at Real Madrid making suggestions and I think this, this feeds into this whole thing of. Well, the manager is kind of a necessary evil. So people suggest managers and in the end essentially the president goes, well, okay then. Without necessarily being fully convinced by it. So I think that what that does do is open the door for a slightly left field appointment.
- [21:22]
E
Yeah.
- [21:23]
D
Could earn a slot and Xavi Alonso just swap jobs.
- [21:26]
C
Ari, I was thinking this yesterday. I was thinking how funny would it be for them to swap jobs and then meet each other in the Champions League final to take the Champions League off Real Madrid? I mean, it's not going to happen, but it would be a lot of fun.
- [21:38]
F
Yeah.
- [21:39]
A
All right, Sid, thanks for coming on.
- [21:40]
C
Pleasure. Cheerio, Sid.
- [21:42]
A
Low there out in Spain. I'll do for part one. Part two we'll begin with Newcastle's drawing Leverkusen.
- [21:50]
G
Big news. Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers. New phones at home or work?
- [21:55]
H
Wait, we're going on tour?
- [21:57]
G
Not a tour. We're delivering and setting up customers phones so it's easier to upgrade.
- [22:01]
F
Let's get in the tour bus and hit the road.
- [22:02]
G
No, not a tour bus. It's a regular car we use to deliver and set up customers phones at home.
- [22:06]
H
Or are you a groupie?
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G
On this tour we deliver and set up phones.
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H
It's not a tour oh, you're definitely a groupie.
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G
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H
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G
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- [22:28]
H
You call that a knock knock joke?
- [22:30]
G
This isn't a joke. Boost mobile really sends experts in to deliver and set up your phone at home or work.
- [22:34]
A
Okay.
- [22:35]
H
It's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.
- [22:38]
G
Like I said, this isn't a joke.
- [22:39]
H
So the knock knock was just you knocking?
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G
Yeah, that's how doors work.
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H
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- [22:59]
A
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Let's begin in Leverkusen. A two all draw for Newcastle. They were two one up with two minutes left. But Barry a wonderful goal to to level it up for the Germans.
- [23:10]
D
There was great dummy in the build up from Alejandro Grimaldi in the build up ran on to the return pass from Maza and and banged it past Aaron Ramsdale. I think a draw was probably a fair enough result. Newcastle were very, very, very poor in the opening 35 minutes. They let in a very soft goal from a corner. Robert Andrich bullied Sandro Tonali at the back post at a corner. His downward header literally went in off Bruno Himares's backside. Newcastle were a little lucky not to give away a penalty. Malik Chaw haul down. Patrick Shake. It was just inches outside the penalty area. I think it was there a case for TR to be sent off.
- [24:00]
F
Yeah.
- [24:01]
D
Scoring opportunity? I think so.
- [24:04]
A
Red card.
- [24:04]
F
Yeah.
- [24:04]
D
Made no effort to play the ball and I don't. You know. Shake would have been cleaned through on goal but he got away with a yellow. Newcastle's equalizer was. Remember on question of Sport they used to have the what happened next round and one of the labourkus and defenders, Paul Paul passes the ball back to Mark Fleckin who's now in gold for Leverkusen. And when he has the ball he receives the pass the balls at his feet and Nick Volta Madde is at least 14 yards away from him. So if you'd freezed it there and said you know what happened next, I don't think anyone would ever have guessed that within four seconds Volta made would basically be all over Flecken who had Somehow allowed him to. To come and attack the ball. Flecken brings down Volta Madde and Anthony Gordon scores a penalty. Anthony Gordon supplied the cross. Lewis Miley to score with a really good header. And then Newcastle do what they do far too often is conceded a late goal. And that allowed a very good goal. And that allowed Leverkusen to. To steal a point. Eddie Howe was yeah. Not particularly happy after Newcastle are giving away too many late goals. Anthony Gordon is attracting the ire of some Newcastle fans because he's playing well in the Champions League. But going missing in Premier League games that's becoming a concern. But he played well last night.
- [25:33]
A
I don't think you want to say any of them are going missing ahead of this weekend. Just in case you know they pin it up on the dressing room wall before the Sunderland game. I mean look that. That mark is two points dropped. And it might be key in terms of qualification because they've got PSV at home which they. They should win but they won't necessarily win. I. PSV are decent and PSG away who may be through I guess but you know it all these teams are desperate to avoid that playoff just because it's just more football, isn't it?
- [26:00]
E
Yeah. And there's going to be some big teams in that sort of 9 to 24. So you. It's not guaranteed to get an easy tie in that one. I suppose I disagree in saying it was two points drops. I know they were winning quite late but I agreed with Barry that yeah certainly first half Newcastle were sort of lucky to. To still be in the game. And they definitely would have taken a point at. At that stage they. They were getting pulled apart actually by one of their. The tactic that they use so often with Volta Mara dropping deep and then players running in behind like they got done by that time and time again. Schick consistently dropping deep and. And sort of Poku and. And Tillman running in behind. And Newcastle were really disorganized which is not something you expect from the. An Eddie Howe team. I think they're usually. You know they're well structured but they were being pulled apart. He definitely changed it at half time and you know maybe they'll feel like they could have gone on and won the game, hit the post a couple of times. But Leverkuse. It would have been really harsh I think had Leverkusen not got something out of the game. And I haven't seen much of them this season. But the midfielder that Barry mentioned that was involved in the goal. Maza who played For Germany youth levels. Now he's an Algerian international. Definitely caught the eye in central Midfield. He's only 20, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got sort of big future, probably somewhere else, given the way Leverkusen sort of turn their players over.
- [27:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, and he nutmegged Dan Byrne, didn't he, for the goal. And I guess that's the easiest player to nutmeg in football, isn't it? Given how long his. His legs are.
- [27:35]
E
You can nutmeg him. It's hard to run round him, though. It depends how you nutmeg him.
- [27:40]
A
Yeah, that's true, I swear. Well, he didn't collect the ball again. He nutmegged for the pass, which is possible. To Bruges. Then Arsenal won 3 nil. Philippe much changed side. The only side now assured of a top eight finish. 100 record. Scored 17, conceded one. And two absolutely beautiful goals in this game from Madueke and Martinelli.
- [27:57]
F
Yeah, absolutely gorgeous. It has to be said, they didn't start the game particularly well. Just took them about 15, 20 minutes. And then Noni Madueke. It's actually ridiculous when you see, when he receives the ball, you think, actually both roles are quite similar in that the players receive the ball in the position, there is no danger whatsoever. They're on the wing. Then suddenly a burst of acceleration. Very, very impressive and absolutely unstoppable shot, which, of course, to make it much more pleasing to the eye, catches the underside of the bar. There's nothing like it. Oh, it's so good. And from then onwards, complete control over the game. I mean, Club Bruges created a few chances, Raya made a couple of decent saves, but apart from that, it was almost complete control. And I think the Gabriel Martinelli goal is actually insane because he never looks once at the goal. He's doing what you're not supposed to do, which is to drive the ball. Looking at the ball as you're running, he doesn't look at the goal, he just whacks it in the top corner after drifting past two players. Absolutely ridiculous. But I think in many ways, what most Arsenal fans will remember from that game, apart from the fact that qualification is now ensured, apart from the fact nobody got injured. If there was a little scare about Mad Wake, who got injured with his hand, is the return of Gabriel Jesus, of course. I mean, and that is something of great importance because he looked really, really sharp, actually, when he came on, actually clipped the bar with a shot, you could see that all his teammates were trying to put him in a situation where he could, he could actually have an easy one to score. Didn't quite happen. But a very, very good comeback for. From Gabriel Jesus and provided that some of the players. I mean, I'm not particularly concerned for Arsenal, you know, thinking of their next Premier League game against Wolves. That's not something to be too, too frightened by. But it worked absolutely fine that he could rest the players. He wanted to rest Arteta, he could give some minutes to players who needed minutes. Ben White has now played quite regularly, so it's getting better. Louis Kelly, you know, we know he's going to play because Calafior is suspended for the next game in the Premier League. And everything's worked absolutely marvelously for. Well, marvelously well for. For Arteta and Arsenal. But I think, yes, apart from the goals, what you remember is the return of Gabriel Jesus. That's, that's a real boon.
- [30:18]
D
They wheeled another 16 year old off the assembly line last night as well. Marili Salmon.
- [30:23]
F
Salmon, which, yeah. Who I've added to my fish team will have to go through it one day. It's. It's starting to start.
- [30:30]
D
Lars was at this yesterday.
- [30:32]
A
God, I mean literally, literally my whole mind is now just, you know, it's just fish footballers. Right. You know, that is. You know, I'm stuck. I'm still. I can't carry on. Have I got Mark? Starting with Mark. Of course.
- [30:45]
E
Comma. Salmon.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. Don't, don't stars. It's. Yeah. You could put the Salmon twins up front, couldn't you? They're really good uphill and you know, if you've got a pitch with a hill, you can put the Salmon brothers together.
- [30:55]
F
Oh dear.
- [30:55]
A
Mar Amborg 29th of August 2009 Sexy Chick by David Guetta featuring Akon was number one.
- [31:02]
C
And.
- [31:02]
A
But apparently, and I don't know if this is true, but I said put in the WhatsApp group. He was born on the same day as Arsene Wenger was in Old Trafford with his arms outstretched. If you want to feel old. Anyway, yeah. Arsenal have games against Inter away Kyra at home. So you know, they will almost certainly finish first. Or they could rest all their players. But all going well for them. Where should we go next? Dortmund to Bodo. 2. Another 2. 2 draw from Bodo. They've got three this Champions League and they're all from 2.
- [31:30]
F
2 draws.
- [31:31]
A
But what did you make of this one, Mark?
- [31:33]
E
Yeah, a surprising result, you know, at home you would expect Dortmund to win this game and actually Bodo, I think it's great that they're in the Champions League, play really entertaining, expressive football despite the kind of budget constraints they go at. You know, all of the big teams that, that they play. And when they reach the semi finals of the Europa League last year there was a lot said about oh it's because of where they play and you know, the Arctic circle influences the results and they are able to go away to Borussia Dortmund and get, you know, really creditable draw which harms Dortmund as well. And I mean it was a bit of a battering. I mean Dortmund had 11 shots on target to Bodo's 4 and 23 shots to 7. So ordinarily Dortmund would win the game. But the fact that they didn't I think is quite nice really for. For Bodo. One of the most eye catching of the smaller teams.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah, Dortmund just outside the top eight. They go to spurs next to on the same point, same goal difference. So that is a. It's a big game for both sides. Anything else? Take your eye Barry from the remaining games.
- [32:40]
D
Well, Benfica beat Napoli 2 nil. So are we about to see prime Jose pull this one out with a fire? Benfica were sort of down amongst the dead men with Ajax with no points. They've beaten Ajax. They've now beaten Napoli. Deservedly so by the looks of things. So Benfica have six points now, but there are two remaining games which they have to win are against Juventus and Real Madrid. Can Jose pull off a serious Houdini act? Probably wouldn't put it past him. Napoli are in quite the pickle. They're 23rd in the table. They've got seven points and they've got Copenhagen away and Chelsea at home.
- [33:27]
E
And there's. I mean they've got a lot of injuries, Napoli, but I mean this just carries on kind of, you know, deft taxes and Antonio Conte being rubbish in European football. It's, you know, he just, he cannot get anything together in the Champions League. His record for a manager of his caliber, for what he's won for the teams he's managed, he really, really bad in, in the Champions League. I don't know if it's the intensity at which these teams play that they struggle to back it up in midweeks or if there's something else going on. But really, really poor even, you know, even though they have got a lot of injuries at the moment.
- [34:03]
A
Yeah. So Benfica sort of back from the dead as are Copenhagen. We mentioned there went at very well Juve as well who beat Paphos 2 nil. So they all had no points 2 game weeks ago or. Or not. No points, but were winless.
- [34:17]
Have those two wins.
- [34:18]
D
This, this proves my theory that Mark emphatically disagrees.
- [34:22]
A
The early games don't matter.
- [34:23]
D
The early games really don't matter.
- [34:26]
E
We'll wait for the. The playoff draw, Barry. And when someone gets Barcelona or whatever, we'll see if it matters then.
- [34:31]
F
This is exactly the kind of. Of game that will completely pass everybody by. You know, you see the result. Athletic psg Nil. Nil. And in fact, it was a far better game than that. And several things that to come from it. The first. And the first thing is one of the great goalkeeping performances I've seen in Europe this season. And if you want to understand, why would I. Simon Sid was telling. Telling us before we pod that he's had a difficult season. But that game, my goodness, was absolutely extraordinary. And there is one save in particular, which I think. I mean, it's probably the best save I've seen all season. And it's not a super spectacular save. It's better than that. He's going towards his left post. There's an absolute boulevard to his right, like six yards to aim at. And Barkala receives the ball and you think, wow. Any keeper would immediately rush to try to be at least at the middle, in the middle of the goal. That's not what Simon does. He only goes one third of the way.
- [35:36]
Getting ready to spring to his right, but keeping enough space to his left in case Bakola decides to go that way. It's a moment of absolute genius. I don't know. Watch it. You'll see what I mean. And he had an absolutely extraordinary performance. And without him, good achieve, by the way. We didn't say about. But without Thibaut Courtois, Manchester City would have scored four or five. But anyway. But UNAI Simon had one of the great goalkeeping performances and PSG were actually rather good. And had Barkala's shot not hit the bar at the end. There was also a kind of.
- [36:09]
A
Oh, such a great move.
- [36:11]
F
Absolutely gorgeous. And they. They, they're. They're okay. They're not back to their absolute best then. Billy is still missing. But they're on the way back. Don't worry too much for them.
- [36:20]
A
And on Ajax watch, we've been cataloging their defeats. They did win at Carabag. They left it late, but scored a couple of lovely goals in a 4, 2 win there. Got Europa League tonight and Conference League, which if anything fascinating happens, we'll let you know on Monday. And that'll do for part two. Part three, look ahead to the Premier League games and we'll get Philippe on FIFA and the World Cup.
- [36:49]
Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So look, all eyes will be on Anfield for Liverpool, Brighton and the Salah family will be there regardless of whether he'll be playing or not. Presumably not. But off that we've talked about Brian not letting the Guardian in, Philippe and the Tony Bloom story. I just wonder why, why does it matter? Not him getting, not him saying the Guardian can't come, but why is the story, you know, in the public interest?
- [37:17]
F
I think at the heart of it, and I'll keep it to generalities, is the relationship between football and betting. And that back, I think in 2014 the FAA accepted or rather issued dispensations for those owners who had direct relationship with the betting world. And it was the Coats family for Stoke City, it was Benham for Brentford and Tony Bloom for Brighton. So normally, if you look at the FA rules and regulations, Tony Bloom shouldn't have anything to do with sports betting at all. Is what is called, so called a participant. But the dispensation was issued which enables him to carry on doing what he's made all his millions and actually billions with which is betting. Now the problem is that he's now accused in the High Court and we can say it because that's all out now there, of using a third party, the aristo George Cottrell, to use him, to use his accounts, so to bet through him. And that's already problematic. But I think that the very model is what is in question here. How is it possible that the owner of a Premier League football club is allowed, is not the only one, but is allowed to be the head or to control one of the biggest private betting syndicates. So there's loads and loads of questions to be asked there and all I hope is that the real questions will be asked in the open max, that it won't be just about one particular person, but then it becomes about the system and the relationship, the symbiotic relationship which exists between elite football, particularly in England, and betting, sports betting, be it through betting syndicate. So for me it's an absolutely huge story. And the fact that the Guardian was banned, which is ridiculous for me, I did a column for that in France. It's the Streisand effect, you know, you know the story about Bra Streisand complaining that her house had, you know, you know what the Streisand effect is, to be honest, by banning the Guardian from the Amex Stadium Tony Blume has ensured that everybody's talking about it, about the story, when probably, had he not done so, it would have become a very interesting, but very interesting story, but probably buried in page 27 of the Business section. For the time being, sure that's not the case anymore.
- [39:53]
A
Tony Boom did not respond to questions from the Guardian about the claim. A source close to him says he intends to file a defense to the High Court claim in due course. Back on the pitch, Baz the time we're Derby. How you feeling?
- [40:04]
D
Well, I'm going to it, which is nice. And I'm looking forward to the occasion. Not necessarily looking forward to the game. I don't think fans of either team are particularly. It's one of those matches like the playoff final. It's great if you win, terrible if you lose. And there's no real middle ground. Obviously, unlike a playoff final, this could be a draw. And I'd say if you offered fans of both teams a draw right now, they'd probably take it. As to how it'll go, I don't know. Sunderland gave a very poor account of themselves in their last derby match against Newcastle at the Stadium of Light in the FA Cup. That got hammered. Totally overawed by this, the occasion. But this is a completely different team and a much better team if. If Sunderland were to win it, Newcastle fans will pretend they don't care and they'll point to the fact that they've won a trophy recently and they're in the Champions League. So it doesn't matter. It probably would matter a bit to them, but. Yeah, should be fun. Or not.
- [41:15]
F
Yeah.
- [41:15]
D
Or not.
- [41:16]
C
You're right.
- [41:16]
A
I suppose new guys have had a, you know, a trip in midweek and Sunderland haven't. So that gives you, you know, a bit more hope, I guess. You're above them in the table. Mark with your spurs hat on. Are you feeling slightly better after the last couple of games?
- [41:28]
E
Yes. Yes. The Brentford game in particular was probably best performance since Manchester City breaking up the Paolinha Bentancourt central midfield. Trusting in Xavi Simmons, you know, is starting to pay dividends. It's still, you know, early days and even against Slavia Prague, there were moments when it didn't look great from a defensive point of view. But yes, a difficult enough away game against Nottingham Forest on. On Sunday. Spurs have done very well away from home, but I tend to feel like those are. And I think Tony Blue might agree that these type of things are fluky and that they don't. Is you don't sort of pay that much kind of respect to great home forms and great away form and because, generally speaking, it will even itself out over a kind of longer period. So I wouldn't be surprised if Tottenham start losing away, but then winning at home, you know, like, there's no real reason for the results that they've had home and away so far.
- [42:30]
A
All right, palace play City. West Ham Villa. Brentford. Leeds. Manchester United.
- [42:33]
F
Bournemouth.
- [42:34]
A
Burnley. Fulham. We'll, of course, cover all of these on Monday, except for Man United Bournemouth, which is on Monday night. So we. It won't have happened by then. To the World cup draw then, Philippe. Right, here we go. Where do you want to start? Here's a good question. Can we start with this question from David Squires? Ah, mate. Who says, does Philippe know if there is any groundswell of dissent within FIFA regarding Gianni's alignment with Trump, or are most members just happy to count the cash? That's his question.
- [43:00]
F
I don't know about the second part of the question. I couldn't possibly answer that. But for the first part of the question, yes, definitely. There have been grumblings, and there have been grumblings against Infantino within FIFA and within the FIFA Council and within the FIFA Congress, the 211 member associations which compose FIFA. Loads of people think that they're being basically, a ring has been put through their noses and they're being led. They're the bulls. They're being led by Johnny Infantino to the market, whether they like it or not. And they don't know which sauce they're going to use to cook them with. So they're not happy with that. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no indication that anybody is prepared to act. The only act of rebellion was, you might remember at the last FIFA congress when Johnny was late in arriving because he was too busy cavorting with President Trump, if I'm not mistaken. And actually they were actually pissed off because they said, you know, this is FIFA, you have to be there on time. We've been waiting for you. But that's about as far as it went. That's as far as it went. So there are some grumblings. There are some people who are not happy at all with the way things are being done, but through interest, self interest and cowardice, nobody's doing anything for the time being.
- [44:19]
A
Pablo says a World cup final ticket is currently selling for $7,625. 5,700 pounds. Would anyone on the pod ever pay such a sum? I mean, I'll speak for myself. No. But the dynamic pricing and it's surged, Philippe, since we know which games are where and when, hasn't it?
- [44:36]
F
Yeah, yeah. And actually I think you could find there were some tickets which were up to 30,000, I think, in category, first category. So, I mean, the dynamic pricing is absolutely atrocious because the idea is that obviously if the demand is lower, you know, the prices are going to go down as well. But it's not going to happen, is it? Perhaps. I mean, unless of course, everybody decides to stay home, which given the measures which are being taken by the US government day after day. You've read about the last one, which is to, even if you come from the UK or France, say you're going to have to give access to the last five years of your social media activity.
- [45:16]
D
You could be in trouble there, Max.
- [45:18]
A
Well, well, I mean, I was going to say like liberal hanged rigging. Well, as you know, as long as I just push them towards picture of Trevor Nelson's microwave. But it's a genuine question, Philippe. Like someone like me, who I look, I have probably tweeted a bit about the Trump regime. Not a huge amount, but like, am I at risk now? What happens if I go and they go through five years of my Instagram and Twitter?
- [45:41]
D
They'll be very bored.
- [45:42]
A
Of course they'll be bored.
- [45:44]
E
The reverse parking, they surely they'd be interested in that one, Matt.
- [45:47]
A
Exactly. Yeah. When I'm part of the Subaru, they'd be like, oh, actually let this gu Buy in.
- [45:51]
D
Yeah, Your Instagram account, post of chili cooking live. Your live stream chili.
- [46:00]
Oh, I. Throwing paper in the bin. There's a cup in the bin.
- [46:04]
E
Yeah.
- [46:04]
A
Oh, yeah, that was a good one. That throwing that cup in the bin was good. No, but Philippe, for fans listening who are thinking about going, who are now going, I have tweeted about Donald Trump or about ice or about thing. What should they. What should they do?
- [46:17]
F
Okay, for the time being, this is only something which is being considered, but there are good reasons to think that it will be implemented. That's the first thing. It's not already in place. That's the first thing to be the second thing. You could be refused entry. So given how much it's going to cost, because have you seen the price of the hotel rooms? My God. Imagine that you're following the Scotland team. And I say that because I know far more Scottish people, friends who are willing to go there to follow their team for obvious reasons and I know English friends who are willing to go and spend thousands to follow the three lines. But you could arrive having booked all those very expensive tickets and rooms and flights and everything and be turned back at the border. That's the real risk. Now, will there be dispensations for people who have World cup tickets? I don't know. This hasn't gone to that particular extent, but given the way things are going in America, to be honest, my advice to everybody said that don't fucking bother. Just stay at home. I mean, what's the point? And do you know anybody who's going unless they have to because of their job?
- [47:32]
E
I'm currently making a business case as we speak. I won't put that in, Philip.
- [47:40]
A
I mean, we're doing. I have not at the moment. We're going to be on the West Coast. I have suggested Acapulco. That's where I want to be, but, you know, I don't know if the bosses are listening. Michael says, will the pod be taking two scheduled drinks breaks from now on? Yeah. So fever says include three minute hydration breaks in each half of every game, not just those players in hot weather. FIFA says these breaks are for player welfare. I'm like, guess, you know, obviously everyone's going, well, there'll be adverts. And I think, Barry, I'm not like, I remember being so furious about adverts at the end of overs in cricket and now I'm not that fussed. So I don't see this as the end of the world. I'd rather it didn't happen, but I won't lose sleep over it when I'm in a cell because they didn't like me tweeting a picture of a cherry tomato on the floor and asking if you lost your tomato in EC1. But anyway, what do you, what do you think of drinks breaks?
- [48:31]
D
I have no strong opinions on it, but, yeah, it's. It's clearly a cynical move to allow more adverts. It would be very low down my list of things to be annoyed about at the forthcoming World Cup.
- [48:45]
E
I mean, it's definitely not the most annoying thing about the next year's World cup, but I do think it will be annoying. You will get teams, I imagine, from about 16, 17 minutes onwards, almost playing for the, for the water break. You know, if you're the outsider, you're the underdog, you almost. You want to get to that point and I think you'll. It can slow the game down, it can stop the, the rhythm and sort of, as you know, teams are trying to build attack after attack. That's kind of how you break down that sort of. That type of team that's got everybody strung across the defenses, just keep building attacks. And I also feel sorry for. If I don't end up in the US with watching Iran v. New Zealand with a 2am kickoff that's guaranteed to be nil. Nil. And I've really feel like I'll fall asleep on one of those water breaks. If not the first, then definitely the second.
- [49:37]
F
There's a risk of contagion. For me, that's the most annoying thing about it. Because if you have a game stage with 35 in the shade, Celsius, yeah, absolute makes complete sense to have.
- [49:51]
Drinks breaks. The problem is that if you do it there, does it serve as a precedent? What happens in national competitions, what happens in UEFA competitions, what happens in concacaf? You're thinking, all right, so it's just for this tournament, right? Or is it for all FIFA competitions? So will it be also like this at the FIFA Club World Cup? Will it also be like this for the FIFA 20 World Cup? For the FIFA women's competitions? So you don't know where it starts and when it finishes. And the idea that there are drinks breaks, I think we all agreed with that. We all agree that, you know, if it's really hot, have drinks breaks. Absolutely, by all means, but judge on the judge on the ad hoc basis, not on the. On the rule basis.
- [50:33]
D
When Philippe said contagion there, I thought he meant players catching diseases off each other by drinking from the same bottle. Honestly.
- [50:45]
A
Well, also a problem. Be like West End shows where everyone has their own name on their bottle. I was, I was more thinking, God, if, you know those games we've seen in Canada recently in the, you know, in the. In like 25 inches of snow and an orange ball and they have to stand in the freezing cold for three minutes because that's what happens. Now, is there anything else about the World cup that is really one more thing that is really exercising you.
- [51:07]
F
I think it's far more important to talk about the Fair Square complaint to the ethics committee of FIFA, which is actually a very important thing, which fortunately has been reported on by quite a few media. So Fair Square is an ngo, human rights ngo has written a nine page, eight page complaint against Johnny Infantino to the ethics committee. I've had a good look at it and I think it's absolutely solid. They basically are asking the ethics committee to look at the breaches, the egregious, consistent breaches of the duty of neutrality that FIFA officials are supposed to abide by and which of course in Jenny Infantino's case are, I mean, he's basically been riding roughshod, I suppose is the expression over those regulations. Vi in particular, the way he's cultivated Donald Trump and consistently advanced the cause of Donald Trump. The most egregious example. I use egregious a lot when I talk about Johnny being the award of the so called FIFA Caramel Peace Prize, whatever it is. So this complaint has been filed with the ethics committee. It's rock solid and it will lead absolutely nowhere as far as FIFA is concerned. But the good thing is that it has had a real echo in the media worldwide and that it might give a few ideas to a few people as to what could be done to stop that man, because he must be stubborn.
- [52:34]
D
My main takeout from that letter they wrote is that they only found four egregious breaches. I thought to be an awful lot more.
- [52:43]
A
There are breaches and there are egregious breaches. Anyway, I can't retweet it until I'm back from the US after being thrown in a cell for, you know, tweeting that awful reply to when me and Jamie got married. Anyway, Nancy says hi. My husband's an avid listener to your podcast. Has been for almost 15 years. A few months ago he mentioned you guys make certain shout outs on the show. I wanted to reach out to see if you'd be able to make a quick birthday shout out for him next week, December 12th. His name is Johannes Tyrella. He's the biggest Dortmund in Liverpool and Klopp fan. He's turning 35 this year. This will truly be the best birthday gift he could ask for. We had our first kid this year and while many habits routines got left behind, he still always makes time to listen to each episode. All those three hours a week of quiet time for you, Johannes. Appreciate if you're able to do it. Totally get if it's not possible. Nancy. It's possible. Nancy. Of course it is. Happy birthday Johannes and thank you for listening and good luck with the exhaustion of parenting. And that'll do for today. Thanks everybody. Thank you Baz.
- [53:43]
D
Thank you.
- [53:44]
A
Thanks Mark.
- [53:44]
E
Thanks Matt.
- [53:45]
A
Cheers Philippe.
- [53:45]
F
Thank you Max.
- [53:46]
A
The Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Phil Maynard.
- [53:56]
This is the guard.