Max Rushden (2:13)

Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Liverpool get away with a 20 defeat in the Part de France outplayed by PSG from the start they couldn't get the ball. So many great performances from the Parisians. Fatinha Xia, Emery, Joao Neves. His pass to Kvaratskheilia for the second and then the Georgian's composure was glorious. The Only saving grace for Arnas slot is that it is only two. Meanwhile in Barcelona, the whole game changes in a minute. Barca were on top, creating but not finishing before Kabasi got caught, fouled his man and Alvarez curled in a beauty. The home side kept pushing, but Norway's other big man, Alexander Sorloff got a vital second for Athletic. Also today, a Premier League preview. Huge games at the top and the bottom. There's more on Gianni and FIFA's new incredibly wholesome gambling partners. Your questions? And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning. Welcome.

Barry Glendenning (3:04)

Hi, Max.

Lars Ibbotson (3:05)

Hello.

Max Rushden (3:06)

Lars Ibitson.

Lars Ibbotson (3:06)

Hello, Max.

Max Rushden (3:08)

And Bonjour Sava. Philippe Auclair.

Philippe Auclair (3:11)

Bonjour, Max Hodgson.

Max Rushden (3:12)

Exactly. Let's start then in Paris. PSG 2, Liverpool nil. Chris says, were Liverpool playing like the apocalypse had actually happened? I mean, it was. It was two, Lars. It could have been so many more, couldn't it? Liverpool created nothing. And. And I mean, we've watched the four quarterfinals now and it seems so clear that PSG and Bayern are basically playing a different game to everyone else.

Sid Lowe (3:35)

I think.

Lars Ibbotson (3:35)

Yeah. Though I do think PSG at their best are terrifying. I think the way they move the ball around, like I say this as always through gritted teeth, but I do find them immensely enjoyable to watch. The way they put passing moves together. Two very good Georgians in this game. I think Mama Dash really had one of his games in goal from Liverpool. He came up with some really, really big saves. He had to. This is a dangerous thing to do in the current climate. I want to stick up for one aspect of Arne Slot's approach here in that I don't think the formation change is inherently crazy. I was kind of previewing this game and I was looking at it thinking you're playing psg. You've got probably the most dangerous wingers of any team in world football and you've had problems at fullback all year. Whether that's Frimpong, who's more of an attacker than a defender, whether that's Kerkes, who's been a bit of a liability and in the middle, Van Dijk has been looking slower. I really think switching to a back three, giving Van Dijk some extra help there, with an extra center half, and allowing in theory these fullbacks to attack a little bit more, that actually structurally makes total sense for Liverpool. There's total logic to that. But it doesn't work if you're going to be as passive as you are. I also think sitting back against PSG is a logical thing to do, but here's the thing about like being slightly more defensive, sitting back a little bit, playing with a low block, if you will. You still have to be aggressive when you do engage the opponents. And this is the very alarming thing about Liverpool now for me is that they're so passive. There's so many people kind of standing around. That sort of aggression and spirit they seem to have on the club seems to have deserted them massively. So I think the structure was not a disaster really as such, but the execution was so lacking from Liverpool. And they look like. I hate the sort of amateur psychology thing that we do sometimes here, but they do look like they don't have a lot of faith in what they're doing right now.

Max Rushden (5:30)

But then Barry, it's hard when you don't have the ball right? I mean, I know they weren't planning to have the ball much, but they didn't really have it at all. And as Lars mentioned, like the way PSG moved this ball. There was one move I think just before halftime where Neves plays the pass with his shoulder and then Nuno Mendes has like a cushioned side foot volley. It's like an advert through the airport. It's like that Brazil advertising and it. And it carries on with like an instep volley and this. And you think this is just a beautiful people playing. We were talking about Arsenal not being entertaining and you're watching this going, this is just a joy.

Barry Glendenning (6:03)

Oh, it's wonderful. I think. In his color piece from Paris, Barony described Liverpool as men in red shirts running around quite near a football match. And that's pretty much it in a nutshell. They couldn't get a sniff of the ball. I think they what, 26% possession or something. The way PSG pass and move it around is mesmerizing. I think I said the same about Bayern Munich. I don't blame AR slot for trying something new, but it didn't work. I think part of the reason it didn't work is because us man Dembele wasn't really playing as a, a center forward. He was moving all over the place. Liverpool's defenders, central defenders, didn't know whether to stick or twist. They were getting pulled out of shape. And then when you've the likes of Vitina in midfield just pinging the ball around with this metronomic precision to players, the quality of, of Fariskilia and Mendes and do just everywhere you look, it's, it's quality as you say. The only positive For Liverpool to take from this game is the fact that they're only two nil down because this is the second pasting they've got in the space of a week. Two completely different kinds of pastings, I would argue. And are we in voice no Territory? I don't know. But they still have a pulse as far as this tie is concerned, but not much more.

Max Rushden (7:32)

Yeah, I don't know, Philippe, what you make of this? Obviously, you don't necessarily want PSD to. To win everything, but it's quite hard not to appreciate this football.

Sid Lowe (7:41)

Right.

Philippe Auclair (7:42)

It's impossible. And also, I think collectively and individually, because it's not just that they. It seems that they are actually a very attractive team when it comes to the characters. If you don't like Rajpalia, you really don't like football, do you? It's impossible not to absolutely love him. And that goal, the shimmy, the feint before he shoots. Oh, my God. I've got, you know, my hair standing on it. When I think about it, it's just glorious. And there are so few of those players. That's the bit as well, is that this team, some of the players are actually throwbacks. They're not athletically. Some of them are super fast, super strong, but others are quite, you know, they're what we call petit gabari in French. They're not shrimps, but they're not super big lobsters. They're kind of prawns. Right, okay. In terms of size.

Barry Glendenning (8:42)

Yeah.

Philippe Auclair (8:42)

Langoustines. The langoustine, absolutely.

Lars Ibbotson (8:46)

They're the crayfish of football.

Philippe Auclair (8:48)

Crayfish go backwards, so they go forward. So I'll have the longoustine. And. And you have to say Dembele. How many chances does he miss? At least three. At least three?

Max Rushden (9:04)

Yeah. I mean, the one at the start of the second half is. So he's got to score that, hasn't he? But, yeah, a lot.

Philippe Auclair (9:09)

It's crazy. So it's Dembele back to being the old Dembele before the Ballon d' or in that season. And I think what's really frightening, or not frightening, depending on which side of the fence you are, is that it's a typical PSG season. They found it with Luis Enrique, that is, as in difficult start to the season, not doing fantastically well during the league phase of the Champions League, struggling in Ligue 1 because Hersel Aust is basically, at one point, was actually ahead of them. And then mysteriously, as winter turns to spring, hello, here comes PSG again. And you see them as you Saw them last year and it's absolutely frightening. And it's even like, for example, last year you would have thought, I mean, this midfield was the best midfield on the planet, but I mean, one of its elements is missing at the moment. Fabian Ruiz has been playing since the end of January, so. Which is all, by the way, absolutely fantastic for the French national team because Zaire Marie is getting some proper game time and really improving from game two. He was superb last night. I mean, it was.

Max Rushden (10:16)

He was brilliant.

Philippe Auclair (10:19)

So through gritted teeth like everybody else. Yes, they're marvelous and I think that they're so good that it comes to the point where the cognitive dissonance you have between the project, the owners and what you see on the pitch is so big that it doesn't really matter anymore, is that when I think of psg, the club, I think about the Qataris and all these things. When I see them play, all I can think of is I want that little Georgian boy with the ball at his feet. I want Desi right away being caught like he's surrounded by four players and he still manages with almost no backlift and I know there's a little deflection. Come on. But, yeah, but he still manages to score that goal.

Max Rushden (11:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philippe Auclair (11:10)

And the. I mean, the cheek of it, I mean, to even attempt it is, is, you know, it's like Maradona, this famous picture with the Belgian defenders who you've got is facing everybody and. Which is more of an illusion, by the way, in the case of Maradona here, he genuinely was in the middle of four players. Doesn't matter. I'm still going to hit it now. They've been. They were absolutely fantastic.

Max Rushden (11:31)

Alexander says there's something about Kvarachelia that doesn't scream footballer. He's more enigmatic. Post grad from soas, who each week turns up as a plus one, dribbles past everyone before saying absolutely nothing at the pub post match. I just thought it was very. But there is. Yeah, that's.

Lars Ibbotson (11:47)

That's really good. But there is something about how he doesn't look like most attackers because he's not gone through one of these academies. He's never been told by coaches that you're not supposed to do that, you're not supposed to do this, you're supposed to lay it off, you're supposed to set up one twos. You know, he wasn't old, he just played football when he was younger. And it turns out it's still possible to be this kind of inspirational winger type man. He's my favorite player to watch in the world, bar none. I want to just put this to Falief because you've probably watched PSG more times this season than I have. I wonder if there's an element of them like you say, really switching it on now because they've had to maybe switch it off a little bit early in the season just because if you look at their schedule the last 18 months, it's mental. They've had no rest at all and Enrique almost doesn't rotate. So some of the more iffy performances they've had earlier in the year. Is there an element that maybe they were saving themselves a little bit?

Philippe Auclair (12:40)

I think that there was an element and if that's the case, chapeau to the team at psg, medical team and technical staff as well. Because they arrived, they were absolutely accurate. They didn't have holidays, they didn't have a preseason which means that they had just like Chelsea, by the way, because of this bloody club World Cup. So when they started the season they had injuries, they had players who were not fit due was not great for a long time this season for example. And little by little they gathered speed. But they've done that, you know, the season before that as well. It seems to be that he has. He and his team managed to put together a preparation plan, physical preparation plan which took into consideration the fact that they had no time for physical preparation. I don't know if this makes sense but in any case well done because the transformation is extraordinary for the over the last two and a half months. I would say.

Max Rushden (13:36)

Can we do a Liverpool inquest then, Lars? It is hard with the caveats of they're playing a really good team and even like a flying Liverpool would struggle against PSG like they did last year, right? They, they, you know, PSG were very good in the home leg against Liverpool. Even though they didn't win it. The players do look so off it, don't they? Like McAllister just looked exhausted. Konate is running in Treal. I mean that was such a blatant penalty at the end. I don't know how it wasn't given. You know, van Dijk, we've spoken about it does look and we've talked about all the issues with Liverpool but it looks like it's collectively just incredibly flat.

Lars Ibbotson (14:16)

Logically I follow. I track the thinking in the formation switch. I don't think that is a bizarre and weird thing to do. I think it does actually kind of make total sense and I'm sure if anerslot was here he would have a very rational explanation for it. But for me there's something and it's unfair to keep comparing them to Klopp, right because Klopp has moved on and this is a different team. But the thing that made Liverpool very, very successful under him was in large part this incredible energy they had. The heavy metal football that was. That gradually matured into maybe some sort of orchestral rock football or whatever. But there was a lot of loud guitars in there still anyway. And then last season they won the league. There was a sense that they had been added a little bit of nuance. They were controlling the game a little bit more. They were taking the tempo down a little bit so they didn't have to run around like crazy people all the time. But this season it seems like they've taken another step in the direction of having less energy, less running. And there have been so many performances by Liverpool that have just looked a little bit anemic and one paced and I thought there was a lot of that here. I also wonder as much as I will defend the logic of the formation switch, I also do to contradict myself a little bit. I do wonder how much they practiced this. I wonder how familiar are all the center halves. Completely OK with like who's supposed to step up and who's supposed to cover. Because they did look a little bit uncertain at times I thought.

Barry Glendenning (15:41)

Yeah.

Max Rushden (15:41)

And Barry, you don't obviously become good or bad, you know, overnight but I don't know if I was a Liverpool fan I'd be looking at a lot of these players and thinking, you know, how many have come to the end of their cycle and the recruitment, you know Kirkus and Frimpong may come good but they haven't yet. You know the midfield supposedly stands out in this season as someone who has been good amidst a sea an Ekatike as much as sea of players that haven't. Yeah.

Barry Glendenning (16:06)

And Szoboszlai probably wasn't even supposed to be in this Liverpool team. He was, it was expected he would be edged towards the fringes of the squad once first came in. We've seen flashes from Verse but he hasn't delivered as you say Kirk has. Frimpong haven't delivered yet. Mo Salad wasn't even picked last night. Wasn't brought on off the bench either. He's significantly or pointedly off it. Virgil Kanate as well. And it's not just a one off. They've been off. Graven Birch as well has been poor this season. So when you have that many big players not performing, it's obviously going to have a detrimental effect on the team. They've spent 450 million quid to make the squad significantly worse to last year's. I think Yesterday was their 16th defeat of this season. That's compared to nine last time around. So they can't sack all the players. Someone's going to have to go, aren't they?

Max Rushden (17:10)

You're right. And listen, I'm going to predict, Philippe, that Sid uses a lot of. Refers to a lot of cliches in part two. I have no way of knowing that. But it is also a cliche that Anfield under the. Anfield under the lights is something else. Like can you. Can you envisage them? I mean, it seems so unlikely, doesn't it? And yet I suppose we had Barcelona. I mean, it just feels. It feels so different. This feels. Even though the scoreline is less, it feels like one of the biggest mountains they will have to climb.

Philippe Auclair (17:45)

To be honest, I really can't see happening, not against that particular opponent, not with those particular players because it's not as if Liverpool had a night off or a night to forget because there've been plenty of others. So it was a logical performance and everybody was expecting a pasting. It should have been a pasting. And you know, Arlislot actually was the first person to say that they were lucky to come, you know, for the 2 0. So no, I can't see it happen. And to be honest, the atmosphere at Anfield is a bit strange these days anyway because it seems like a lot of the fans not booing their team or anything like that, but a lot of their fans have decided Arne Slot is not the man for the job. Xabi Alonso is coming. It's sort of a question of gritting our teeth until the change comes and the change will come. Koller, one thing that Barry has said, I don't necessarily agree with him when it comes to Florian Wirtz. I think Florian Wirtz is a magnificent footballer and who has been one of the best performers, or better performers rather of Liverpool in recent months. What I find really shocking, revealing is that he and Hugo Ikitk are for me, playing on a different plane. They're playing faster, they're faster in their brains than everybody else around them. They seem to have some energy and some desire to create and they are constantly looking for each other. And when it works, when it clicks, it's absolutely beautiful what they can do together. But unfortunately it's only the two of them that's it. And Szoboszlai does what he can, but you can't run the midfield all by yourself, which he has to do. He has to be the guy who is there not just to bring the drinks and the champagne to the attackers, but also to make sure that the dishes are washed clean in the kitchen. You know, he has to do absolutely everything and he can't. So no Anfield. Yeah, the Anfield role or whatever, forget about it. I really can't see happening. What I see happening is PSG actually probably opening the scoring end the game petering out.

Max Rushden (19:48)

Yeah.

Philippe Auclair (19:48)

With an easy qualification for. For the Parisians.

Barry Glendenning (19:52)

The thing is as well, Liverpool have a big game against Fulham on Saturday in the evening and PSG have the weekend off because their game against Lons has been postponed, hasn't it?

Philippe Auclair (20:03)

Yes. It's the French thing of not being at all, not favoring at all the big clubs in the competition. At the big clubs. The big club, singular. It's. It's. It's become a thing. And it might have something to do that with the fact that the chairman of PSG also sits on the board of the organization which decides whether those games are going to be postponed or not.

Max Rushden (20:27)

There you go, Lars. It does lead us. We are close to two legs of PSG Bayern, which should be brilliant, right?

Lars Ibbotson (20:35)

Yeah. With apologies to Arsenal. That would feel almost like the. I am going to get in trouble for this, but that would feel like the real final.

Max Rushden (20:45)

Yeah. I mean, I have written and the trophy to be given to whoever wins that semi.

Lars Ibbotson (20:48)

Yeah.

Max Rushden (20:49)

I'm as in trouble as you are.

Lars Ibbotson (20:50)

So here's the thing. Let's just. Like I've said this a million times this season. I'll say it again, I do think Arsenal are incredible. I think they've got the best. They're the best defensive team in Europe, probably. And it's just. That's just not as fun to talk about. Like it's going to win them the League. So it's fine. And it might even go on to win them the Champions League, but it isn't as like a neutral. It's not the most fun thing in the world. Whereas, you know, Bayern are the best. Bayern and PSG seem like the best teams to watch around Europe at the moment. And that's going to be an absolutely incredible occasion if indeed that happens. I mean, are we, of course, are we writing off the Real Madrid thing? That feels unsafe.

Max Rushden (21:28)

It does. It all feels unsafe. Of course. You know, anyone can win the final once it's a final I know you

Lars Ibbotson (21:33)

covered it in the other episode, but like I do think the way Bayern just were not able to see out the game against Real Madrid, like they took the two nil lead, but then they kept like that second half drove me crazy because you're in a two zero lead and Real Madrid keeps bursting into loads of space behind the Bayern defense. I was like, why are you leaving this much space? Why are you doing this? So, like they're not great at defending, which means I think that tie is still kind of sort of alive a little bit. But at least, yeah, if we do get PSG Bayern, that would be tremendous fun.

Max Rushden (22:03)

All right, that'll do for part one. CID'll join us in part two.

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Knox and Jamie (23:00)

Foreign.

Max Rushden (23:05)

Welcome to Part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Let's bring in Sid Low live from a modest range hotel in Barcelona, I would suggest. How are you, Sid?

Sid Lowe (23:15)

Good morning, Max. It's so modest. I had to give up on the eggs at breakfast this morning. They were taking too long. I would not have made it to this here podcast, so I had to abandon them.

Max Rushden (23:24)

Right. Pray for Sid. If anybody's near Sid and can send him some eggs, that would be delightful. Anyway, Barcelona Athletic 2. First win at the Nou Camp since 2006. Sid, you were there. How was it?

Sid Lowe (23:36)

I thought it was really good fun, actually. It was shaping up to be a very different game, I think, than the one it became because obviously the red card and the golds before halftime I think changed that. I felt that Barcelona lacked some of the things that they've had all year. Obviously, the absence of Rafinha is a big deal, although his replacement, Marcus Rashford, was probably their most dangerous player and Atletico got. You're right, it's a huge victory. The first time they've won there with Diego Simeone, who I think it was his 45th game against Barcelona, admittedly, obviously not all of them at The Camp Nou. But the first time he's won there and it puts them in a really good position.

Max Rushden (24:10)

Yeah. And like, the game changes on the red card. Right. Barca are the better team, but it is a red card. On the first viewing, I thought, he's not. He's unlucky to be sent off, but he's unlucky to commit the foul. But then I don't know what you think. I think if you watch it again, he's got to just stop running. Right. He's just got to let him go.

Sid Lowe (24:28)

Yeah, I. I'm always a bit uneasy about these kind of. These kind of decisions, if only because I could, you know, understand the reason for giving them. But I always feel really sorry for players who make absolutely no attempt whatsoever to foul anyone who are not really even making an attempt to tackle them. And there is a bit of me that. I mean, your explanation of it. There is. Is, I suppose, part of the reason why I feel uneasy about it. Because if the explanation is stop running, it feels like a really unfair, Unfair thing to ask a defender to do. Let him go. Well, why shouldn't I go with him? But, yeah, I mean, I think the decision was. Was probably the right one. Well, definitely the right one, considering what the rules are. I just wonder sometimes if there needs to be a bit more nuance into the rules. But the last thing we want is more caveats in the rules because, you know, we're already moaning about inconsistency.

Max Rushden (25:13)

Well, we'll actually sit under the Paul Doyle law, which I still like. That would be a penalty, but not a red card, like a foul of someone clean through. And I actually quite like that as a. As a. As a law change. But you're right, people just yell at you whenever you want to do anything with the game. And probably rightly so. Philippe, you wanted to come in?

Philippe Auclair (25:31)

Yeah, I. I'm just wondering, because that. There is a foul. There is a foul. We all agree on that. Is it a clear goal scoring opportunity? I mean, I'm sorry, I've. I've watched a few times, like I'm sure all of you have done. The ball bounces off the attacker's arse. Right. Is he in control of the ball at the moment the foul is committed? No. Is the ball too far ahead, Too far ahead of him for him to control it? Yes. So I can see the chain of events leading to the red card, but I do think it's not quite as clear cut as.

Sid Lowe (26:04)

No, that's nuance that gets talked about in Spain sometimes with these kind of goal scoring opportunities which they actually use, they use the English phrase, what is it? Doggos. Dogos. Dogsov. Yeah, dogs. Well, thank you. Whatever they call it in Spain, they tried to call it that and they probably do a better job than me. But one of the questions is always that is, is he actually in control of the ball and is he running through on goal or is the ball going wide? Obviously, when that happening, when that's happening quick. And even if you then do go to Var, there's always that nuance about referee's trying to decide how far it's under control. But. But the funny thing is no one complained about that last night. That wasn't the issue. Flick, post game, he said. Flick, post game, said, said. Yeah, there was the. The Var was. The Var was. What was his phrase? He said the VAR was very focused today and it was a German guy, so thanks for that, Germany. But he wasn't talking about that. He was talking obviously about the.

Lars Ibbotson (26:58)

He.

Sid Lowe (26:58)

I mean, he was in the sense that, you know, it went to Var and the decision was made. But there was no complaints about the decision decision. The complaints from Flick were. Were more about the. The repetition of fouls on Lamina Mal, in his view, in particular, there was a real sense that Koke got away with a handful in the first half, having already got a yellow card. And then the other one was a bizarre moment which I must confess I didn't see first time around, which is the. Which is the. The handball penalty red card that the referee ignored because the goalkeeper, Kwamuso, takes the goal kick, gives it to Mark Puvil who puts his hand on the ball and then takes the goal kick himself. Simeone said that was just common sense. And I think if you watch it back, you can interpret it as he hasn't actually taken the goal kick. He's given to his. To his teammate to take it. But it looks a bit like he's taken the goal kick. And Flick certainly thought he. He couldn't understand why that wasn't given as a penalty and what would have been a red card. Because I think Mark Pill already had a yellow at that point.

Max Rushden (27:50)

Yeah, I. I'm on the common sense part of that, but. Baz, you think that's a stonewall penalty?

Barry Glendenning (27:57)

I do, yeah. We've seen them given before against Tyrone Mings and not given against Arsenal's Gabrielle. I thought this was as egregious as any of them. I thought the keeper had played the ball to Pugil and he handled it deliberately and you know, he did look like a trump if it had been given against him. It's a big risk for him to take. He clearly thought the goal kick hadn't been taken, but I'm not so sure about that.

Max Rushden (28:29)

Fair enough. I mean, the Alvarez free kicks, it. I mean, it's so good, isn't it?

Sid Lowe (28:35)

Right? It's brilliant. It's important for Julian Alvarez, who's had a really strange season. So Julian has been built up as the, you know, the, the player that's likely to lead Atletico in the future, that's likely to be that they're kind of key player. But he had a very, very difficult. He called on the opening day away at Espanol and then didn't score away again, I think for something like three months. Went for a really poor spell in terms of his performance levels. He then did something, I think, very ill advised, which is post game, when he had finally scored and he was asked about his future, he basically said, well, who knows where I'm going to be? And on a day in which. In which I think I can't remember which game it is now, but Atletico Madrid had won a game. He played really well. It was, you know, everyone was happy. And he goes and sort of ruins the mood with this comment amidst lots of talk of Barcelona being interested in him. And I think what's important is he started to play really, really well recently after a really difficult period earlier in the season and looking like that player that I always feel with, with. With Julian. There's a slight doubt with Atletico Madrid about whether they want him to be the highest of the strikers or the second line of the strikers. Is he a number nine or is he a number ten? And so when they play with Sawloff, obviously he's the number 10. When they play with Griezmann, he's the number nine. He can do a bit of both. He covers a lot of the pitch. That run in the first few minutes yesterday was fantastic. His is the pass for the red card. He then of course scores the free kick as well. His ability to link everything up is brilliant and he'll be really, really important for them if they are going to achieve anything in the Champions League. But it hasn't been a great season. One other thing then, Max, to add, I just want to say this, and there was a lovely moment before the game which also, with hindsight you think, was it actually a very clever moment from Diego Simeone? He did the pre match press conference with Anton Griezmann, who of course has just announced that he's to Orlando. And before the press conference started, the two of them were sitting there together, Simeone and Griezmann. And Simeone said, can I just say something? And he went on this discussion of how. What a great person Griezmann is. He's a. He's a model for society. We need more people like this. I love you. You've been amazing. I consider you a friend as well as a player, so. But if you don't run tomorrow, you're not playing. But he did this really kind of quite emotional thing, and Griezmann was basically asked to reciprocate. And Griezmann said, well, for me to really open my heart, I think I need to be at home with my family and my kids and maybe Diego's family, but perhaps not here. But he did this. This really kind of. Simeon did this really sort of personal and emotional thing with Griezmann, who then played brilliantly. And I just sort of, you know, Griezmann is old now, and last year he. He had, I thought, a few difficulties kind of accepting this new role. And he's talked about admitting that he had this difficulty accepting his new role where he wasn't playing all the time. He's still their best footballer. And if you look at that second goal, and this doesn't often happen, admittedly, when you're doing a match report, because you normally it's all happening a bit too kind of frantically. I managed to actually properly watch that entire move without looking down at the keyboard, without writing or anything. It starts with Griezmann dribbling his way out of his own area, releasing the pressure from Barcelona, playing, I think, a one two with one of the central defenders, playing it into middle of midfield. Then Atletico slow the ball down, recycle it, bring it around the other side. Griezmann again is the one that provides the penultimate pass to Ruggeri, who then provides the cross for. For the goal. And I just think he is a criminally underrated footballer who. Who atlets go are going to miss

Philippe Auclair (31:46)

and whom France are going to miss big time. I'm. I'm still. Every time I see him play, I just wonder, why did you retire? Well, I know why he retired because he wasn't given the captaincy. That's why he retired from international football. But he's the one type of player we don't have with France and is irreplaceable. And I think, actually Didier Deschamps used that expression for him, is irreplaceable. And there is, I mean, I cannot support you in your opinion, enough, Sid, because I consider him to be one of the three greatest French footballers of all time. And he's going to be terribly missed. And it's shocking because seeing what he does with Atletico, he's got a place in the French national team, there's absolutely no doubt about that, even if he doesn't play every single game. But when you remember he's been France's best player in 2016, 2018, 2022, each tournament, and we're not going to have him and it's going to be a big miss. If I can ask you a question, Sid, by the way, which is not Griezmann related, it's still Atletico related. I have to say that the type of football that they played, maybe I didn't watch enough of them this season, but the type of football they played. And actually before the sending off, there were moments I thought, this is actually bloody, bloody good football. The combinations, they looked much sharper, they looked much more positive. Not at all the Atletico we're supposed to hate, which is all prickly and defensive and counterattack. There was actually some really good stuff being played there. So have we missed or have I missed something from Atletico this season?

Barry Glendenning (33:27)

Just before Sid answers that question, Philippe, that's a trap I've fallen into as well. And it's a trap quite a few, the pundits and commentators on TNT Sports, I think also fell into. And Terry Gibson, the former player and Spanish football expert, raises it on social media and yeah, I'd be interested what Sid has to say.

Sid Lowe (33:51)

I'm laugh, I'm laughing because I could kind of. I quite, quite enjoying the chance to respond to this because I did notice on Minute by minute that I think it. Joe Cole on TNT had had prefaced this game as beauty against the beast. And, and, and you know, the Atletico will be all ugly and Barcelona will be all wonderful to watch and stuff and it just isn't true. It just isn't. The way that Athletico play, Athletic will still have that in them. And actually there was quite a lot of criticism last night. I didn't get a chance to hear very much of it, but post game, listening to, to some of the radio responses to it of what Athletico did in the second half, this idea that you're a man up and a goal up, go and kill him, go and score five, as if that was really, really easy. I actually thought Athletico managed that second half pretty well. And the second goal is, I think a really good example of that, of slowing it down, bringing it back round and creating the chance. But you look at Atletico Madrid this season, they beat Barcelona 4 nil at home in the Copa del Rey and then they went away and lost three nil. And they were hanging on and people criticized him for it. Well, you know, they got through against Barcelona, scoring four goals against them. Last year in the Copelore against Barcelona, it was 4, 4. They, they went to Betis and scored 5. If you look at their, their goals this year, they are just not that team that wins one nil anymore. The surprise last night wasn't so much that Atletico scored two, is that they didn't concede any. Now this just isn't, this just isn't true that Atletico are this team. And, and so, so yeah, I saw Terry Gibson's tweet and boy, yep, that sounds about right. Now, admittedly, it's very easy to be a smart ass when you follow a league and everyone else doesn't. You go, well, look at this. But, but I, I do think that, and, and this happens in Spain, by the way. This happens with people who do watch Athletic all the time. That there is a kind, if you like, a comfort in saying, oh, there's Simeone and it just isn't true. Admittedly, I do think that some of Simeone's instincts are to, are to be protective and so on. There was an interesting comment that Simeone made in the, in the pre match press conference and I can't remember the question, but I can remember the answer. So I'm not 100 sure the context, but I think it was about Barcelona and defensiveness and being open and so on, and that his answer was teams who attack better tend to defend worse. In other words, you know, the old short blanket theory, you can cover your head or your toes, you can't cover both. Up to a point, it's a choice. But then within that choice, you've then got to try and perfect the elements of that choice that you make. And he said, and that's the process that we're in. And it was his admittance that, yeah, we're not defending like we once did, but that's partly because we're now attacking differently to how we once did. Now obviously all of this is also a product of what you've got available to you. So if you've got a team that has Simeone Jr. That has Julian Alvarez, that has Alex Bayerna, that has Antoine Griezmann, that has Sorloff, that has Lookman who started on the left hand side last night. It's natural that your evolution is going to be into something else. And at times, there has been that question mark about whether there's a slight disconnect between what the manager wants them to be and what the players that they've got mean that they really should be.

Max Rushden (36:44)

Although it would be complete insanity to cover your head with a duvet and have your toes exposed. I mean. I mean, I understand the point, but that would be a mad way to

Lars Ibbotson (36:52)

try to sleep, switching the play. Like Pedri, I do think on the subject of the Terry Gibson tweet, he also mentioned Barcelona's high line, which, in fairness, I do think there's a plot line here, bearing in mind that after Barcelona lost very badly to Atletti earlier in the year, there was the story going around that the players had had a chat with Flik about this high line, about whether sometimes they need to ease off a little bit. And then this tie essentially turns on a ball in behind that leads to a red card. Like, is this. Is this being discussed at all? Because they got. That's how they got done here, essentially.

Sid Lowe (37:29)

Yeah, it is how they got done. And, you know, it is a recurring theme. And it is a recurring theme not just in terms of what's happening on the pitch, but in terms of the way that everyone analyzes Barcelona. And endlessly. I can't remember which game it is. I think it's the Rayaway Canelo game, where one of Ryo's players said after the game, the manager told us about, and he actually called it the Flick line. It sounded like, you know, exactly, exactly. Like a military defense or something, the Flick line. And, and. And everybody's aware of that. And Flick has talked about there being a slight modification to that. But what Flick always insists. And obviously, in fairness, he's. He's right to insist on this, you know, up to a point. Let's go back to the blanket, shall we? You take a choice over. Over which bit you cover, and if you play with a high line, because you think the benefits outweigh the risks. Now, Flick's argument is always. And I think he's right, and I think that although admittedly, there are times when you look at it and you think, you know, if we can all see this, why can't you see it? And of course, the answer is he can see it, but he thinks it's worth it. His answer is always. It's actually not so much about where that line is, but about how well you press and about not Allowing the other team to have the time on the ball to be able to play that pass over top. Because although that pass is quite simple in the sense that there's a lot of space to hit and it doesn't need to be perfectly accurate to. To go beyond the other team's defense, you still need to be able to get it, get that pass away. And in fairness to Flick, this team won every domestic competition last year, got to the Champions League semi final, was the width of a post away from reaching a Champions League final this year. Looks like they're going to win the league again. They got knocked out about. Out of the Coppola Rey and in that Copule game, by the way, the 4 nil against Atletico Madrid, Atletico just streamed through them and it was that high line thing. But Flick's argument is it's more about how well we press and how well we do the mechanics. And this is one of the reasons why, when you look at Rafinha and everyone talks about the goals and assists when Barcelona fans are watching us every week, and when Flicklets are Rafinha, what they see is the guy that leads the press and the guy that's contagious. And this is one of the reasons why, for all of his other qualities and all. For all the fact that numerically, Rashford's season has been brilliant. You know, you couldn't ask for more for Rashford. Numerically. One of the doubts is, yeah, but does he do that stuff that makes the whole structure work? And Rashford was, well, statistically, I think their most dangerous player last night. I think it was six shots or seven shots or something and kept going at now El Molina. But there is always that doubt about does the collective functioning work as well when Rafinha is not there? Because Rafinha is so important for that.

Max Rushden (39:47)

Don't tell Wilson there's a former Man United player who doesn't press because he'll write 55 articles about it in the next year. Quickly, Sid. I mean, this time is not over, though. We have talked about athletes being good, but Barca created a lot and if their finishing had been better, they would have been ahead and they still had chances when they were down to 10.

Sid Lowe (40:05)

Yeah, there was a suggestion made by both Flick and Simeoni actually dealt with this yesterday, that. That moment when it's one nil and you're a man down and whether you stick to it or whether you try and draw it back and. And there was. I think. I think there will be some people as they start to pick over it today. Who will think perhaps Barcelona could have tried to hold on to the one rather than go and look for it? Because then you go away to Atletico Madrid and Barcelona winning one, nil. Atletico Madrid is perfectly plausible. Barcelona scoring two goals at Atletico Madrid is also perfectly plausible, though I suspect that Atletico will score. There we are destroying the cliche again. I suspect Athletico will score, but they may well concede. But, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's not over. I think it's a big, big lead, though, for Athletico, who've been really, really good at home this season. And shall we say it one more time, Been really good to watch at home this season as well.

Max Rushden (40:49)

And finally, Sid, your reaction from you and from the rest of Spain on. On the Real Madrid Bayern game yesterday.

Sid Lowe (40:56)

Well, I don't know about. From the rest of Spain. I'll try and give you the rest of Spain's view. I think the rest of Spain's view.

Max Rushden (41:00)

I see you as speaking for the

Sid Lowe (41:01)

whole of the whole.

Lars Ibbotson (41:02)

We've got all the rest of Spain in Sid's hotel room right now. It's really crowded in there.

Sid Lowe (41:07)

I am the voice of the nation. Yeah, it's an annoying voice in it. I think the feeling was that for 60 Minutes we saw a reflection of how Real Madrid have been this year, and we saw a really, really good buy in. There's a real sense of, wow, they're good, aren't they? Particularly. Al watched Alicia go what. What Alicia did to Carreras, and it makes me laugh a little bit. Should we go back on to destroying cliches or. Or obvious. Obvious tropes? The obvious trope that Trent can't defend. Well, the two fullbacks. The one that was struggling to defend wasn't Trent. It was. It was Carreras who was getting taken to bits by Alise. But then we also saw that Real Madrid reaction. And that, I think, makes everyone think that maybe there is a chance, because Real Madrid, it's a. God, I'm using this word a lot today. It's a bit of a cliche, but you sort of think if there's someone who can turn this around, if there's someone who can be a bit illogical because Rama just haven't been good all year. But they have their little moments and they have lots of very good players and most of the time it's not functioning well. But you just sort of think, you know, if they get it right, if Bayern Munich allow them to.

Philippe Auclair (42:11)

To.

Sid Lowe (42:11)

To counter them and to run at them, then maybe there's half a chance. But yeah, I think the overall feeling was one of the Real Madrid's qualities and weaknesses both got shown in this game. And actually the structural weaknesses are probably too great to really expect them to win anything. But hey, it's Real Madrid. And that's, that's always the answer. There was a the front page headline in marker. I might even have it here for you.

Lars Ibbotson (42:31)

Here we go.

Sid Lowe (42:31)

There's. There's Marcus. I'm doing it. There's Marcus. Front page.

Max Rushden (42:34)

Yeah, sorry. You can say James Richardson. It's allowed, Sid. Don't worry.

Sid Lowe (42:38)

Can I. I'm doing the James Richardson here. Anyway, the front page just says for as long as there is life, you know, and so they're clinging to that.

Max Rushden (42:49)

Good stuff, Sid. Thanks for coming on, pal.

Sid Lowe (42:51)

Very much a pleasure. Cheerio, Sid.

Max Rushden (42:54)

Low there out in Spain. And that'll do for part two, Part three. We'll preview the Premier League action this weekend.

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Sid Lowe (44:02)

Foreign.

Max Rushden (44:08)

To Part 3 of the Guardian Football Weekly so the Premier League returns after quite a while away, what with an international break and FA cup as well. And it begins Barry, on Friday night. West Ham Wolves. And this is so huge for West Ham, isn't it? Because a win takes them out of the relegation zone, puts spurs in it. But if they don't win against quite a good Wolves team, psychologically, you feel that could you might not recover.

Barry Glendenning (44:31)

Yeah, I think you've nailed it. There was quite a good Wolves team. I think it's a bit of a stretch. They're considerably better than the shockingly bad Wolves team that that started the season and continued for five or six games into the Rob Edwards reign. But they are significantly better. It wouldn't surprise me if they beat West Ham. They've had over two weeks off. West Ham had that quite grueling FA cup match against Leeds last weekend. It's a game West Ham simply have to win, you think, and if they don't, they will only have themselves to blame for anything that happens to them from here on in. They should have enough about them to beat Wolves at home. But will they? It's impossible to guess, really.

Max Rushden (45:23)

Mm. I mean, I hope they don't. Yes, lars.

Lars Ibbotson (45:26)

So since the 1st of January, Wolves have taken 14 points in 12 and West Ham have taken 15 and 12. So they're both kind of recovered into something resembling passable lower mid table form. But of course, because of sins earlier in the season, they're both like right down in it. I think it could be a terrible game, like entertainment to qualify like this could be absolutely dreadful because they're both teams that excel at like counter punching, but none of them really want to control the game, I don't think. And given the nerves involved, I mean, this could be horrendous, but it could be one of those, like, you have to watch it still. You have to bring up the popcorn rubber necking.

Max Rushden (46:07)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're probably right. And then the next game is the early kickoff on Saturday. Philippe. Arsenal against Bournemouth. I mean, that was a crucial win yesterday against Sporting. Has that suddenly changed your whole feelings or not? Because Bournemouth have a decent record against Arsenal.

Philippe Auclair (46:24)

I think, yes, they do. And, and it's often been Arsenal's problem to actually fail. What you don't really expect them to. But yes, it felt absolutely huge. And thank you again. David Raya, whom I. I don't see his name mentioned as the among the candidates for Footballer of the Year, but he's been Arsenal's best player this season and I think he again showed it at Sporting. And when he's not around, we see the difference in a big, big way anyway. But what I'm expecting on Saturday is pain, then more pain. And I don't expect it to be a glorious cavalcade of young Arsenal attackers rampaging through the Cherry Orchard at all. I'm expecting something, yes, really painful, slow, everybody looking at each other with their head in their hands. And it's going to be like this until the end of the season, I'm afraid.

Lars Ibbotson (47:27)

It is so fascinating because if you look around Europe, like the top teams, we've spoken about it on this, like most of the ones have this in common is that they can be absolutely devastating going forward, but you don't really trust them down the other end. If you talk about Bayern, if you talk about Barcelona, if you talk about Real Madrid, same with psg.

Barry Glendenning (47:44)

Really?

Philippe Auclair (47:45)

Yep.

Lars Ibbotson (47:46)

And then there's Arsenal, who are like, again, the best defense in Europe, but like a lot of the times it's not a ton of fun. Philippe, they're. They're the big outlier here.

Max Rushden (47:56)

Yeah, it's just, it's just the point that basically, you know, I'm trying to write a column about this. You, you know, you love football and you want your team to win, but you don't actually want your team to be in with a chance of winning because it's just so agonizing that they might not win and then they might be at the bottom and then that's agonizing as well.

Lars Ibbotson (48:14)

So really?

Max Rushden (48:16)

Exactly. You just want to be mid table. Chelsea play man City at 4:30 on Sunday. So obviously a lot depends on the Arsenal results from Saturday. But you feel like City bas probably need to win all their games pretty much to win the title.

Barry Glendenning (48:32)

You'd think so, yes. But obviously that depends on how Arsenal get on Chelsea's record against Man City in the Premier League. Recent record is. Is dismal. They haven't won in nine. City have won four, the last five at Stamford Bridge in the league. I would expect City to win this. Chelsea are not in a good Premier League place at the moment. They've won one in six. If they hit their straps, they could cause City no end of problems. But I would expect City to win this. They have to win it, basically. Yeah, they do.

Max Rushden (49:08)

And then NAS 2pm, the Stadium of Light. Roberto de Zerbi's first game as the Tottenham manager. Oh, I can't. I just can't.

Lars Ibbotson (49:17)

Feels like it feels like a big occasion.

Philippe Auclair (49:19)

Max.

Lars Ibbotson (49:23)

Well, given that he's not exactly the unity candidate, I feel like a good start is important. But the Stadium of Light is not the easiest, not the easiest place to go.

Barry Glendenning (49:34)

It is at the moment, Lars. It's no longer the fortress it was.

Sid Lowe (49:38)

But.

Lars Ibbotson (49:38)

Have you watched Tottenham play football recently, Berglando?

Barry Glendenning (49:41)

I have.

Lars Ibbotson (49:41)

Are you familiar with the work of the Tottenham? I was, yeah. I was looking at one of these websites that do previews for this game and in the comments section, one of the readers has predicted that this will be a 37 nil home win. And interestingly, the username of the reader has THFC in it. So this is the. The level of self Loathing from the spurs fans at this point is pretty historic. But I think Roberto de Zarbi is a smart guy. I think he's a very dangerous candidate for this moment. And I am kind of. I'll be watching this from behind the

Philippe Auclair (50:19)

sofa when it comes to de Zerbi. The fact is I was rereading this interview that Louis Dunk gave. I don't know if you remember it.

Max Rushden (50:28)

Yes.

Philippe Auclair (50:28)

In which he talked of the first two weeks were carnage. I love that word, carnage to describe what the zebe brings. And the other thing is that of course, you know, you arrive and it's been an international break. But the thing that everybody would know that the de Zerbi's temple is basically the training ground. But Tottenham, wherever they are in the league, they still had 13 players on international duty who only came back quite late and not necessarily in the best of conditions, by the way. So he's had barely any time to actually work with those players before the trip to Sunderland. And the problem is that you feel that this weekend is the pivotal moment. West Ham beats Wolves goes out. If Tottenham do not go out of relegation zone, do not win, they have to win. Not a draw is not enough. If they do not win at Sunderland, then the only way is down, I'm afraid.

Lars Ibbotson (51:25)

Maybe this is the way Thomas Frank tried to motivate them. Igor Tudor seemed to try to demoralize them that none of those things worked. Maybe confusing the players is the way to go. Like you just gotta push a different button, befuddle them in the manner of the Zerby. Maybe this is the way their last

Max Rushden (51:44)

win in the Premier League was against Brentford on the 6th of December. That is more than four months. Four months ago. Colin Miller tweeting. Since January 1, 2025, a period of 15 months, PSG have won more home matches against Premier League teams than Tottenham have. And suboptable Doeserby did you know, on the subject of, you know, the comments he made about Mason Greenwood, he did apologize and it was good that he apologized and he apologized for making a stance and you've always got to be aware that it's not his first language, but it was. There was a bit of the. I'm sorry if you were off about the apology. So I, I think we have to look at his actions after that. But it, it was good that he said something rather than nothing. Forest also in trouble. They play Villa same time as spurs go to Sunderland. Villa beat them 3:1 in January, if that makes any difference. But they are l still fighting for stuff Villa. So this is a really hard one to call, I think.

Lars Ibbotson (52:41)

Yeah. So Villa seemed like they were okay. I'm one of those sort of stats nerds who kept like going on about Villas XG all year. And then recently the results have turned like the much expected villaing has happened. Whether that's to do with their regressing to the mean or whether it's just Kamara being injured and they're missing their holding midfielder, it's hard to say. But then that win against West Ham the inform West Ham they suddenly beat two nil last weekend. So I guess the very short answer is who knows Villa at the moment,

Max Rushden (53:18)

who knows the other side of danger? Leeds go to Old Trafford on Monday. So we'll cover that next week. Palace, Newcastle, Brentford. Everton is you know both of those huge Barry. Both of these guys are in with a shout of the Champions League. I mean it's unlikely, but it's possible.

Barry Glendenning (53:34)

No, it's, it's. This is a Champions League six pointer. Basically the ball's on 46 points. Brentford are above Everton just by two goals. The corresponding fixture at Hill Dickinson was a good game. Brentford won that 4:2. And in the second half of this season, Everton who I famously tipped for Relegation. The only teams who've picked up more points than them are Arsenal and Manchester United. Now I noticed Thiago have a striker who's on 19 goals in the league this season. Where the hell would Everton be in the table if they had a striker who was on 19 goals this season? I think they'd be top.

Max Rushden (54:15)

It's a very good point.

Lars Ibbotson (54:16)

Yeah. I do think for Chelsea, for all the money they've spent in the last few years, to be two points ahead of a team that has Beto up front is. I beg everyone should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Yeah.

Max Rushden (54:27)

Burnley, Brighton, Liverpool, Fulham as well. Moving on. Adam Crafton tweeting FIFA made a 30 minute documentary about Infantino's 10 years in power. In addition to making an Infantenne brand and throwing parties in Miami and Switzerland bombarded the world football asking for messages of congratulations. Would love to know how much was spent on it. Oh man. I mean he did tweet a link to the documentary. I haven't brought myself yet to watch it. I don't know if I can but maybe it's. Maybe for, you know, professional reasons. It has to be done. Philippe, you wanted to talk about a josamar piece that you're doing on FIFA's partner ADI predict street.

Philippe Auclair (55:06)

Yeah, the world famous Adi predicts trade. I Mean, I don't know if people are really aware what prediction markets are, but they're basically huge in America. Everybody will have heard of Polymarket and maybe Kalshi as well. They're basically betting operators who offer odds. You play against other people on absolutely everything. And it can be the World cup, the identity of the winner of the World cup, but it also can be really controversial. That's a very polite way of saying it's things such as, when will Israel bomb Beirut again? You can bet on this kind of thing. It's absolutely disgraceful, absolutely disgusting. And prediction markets are actually prohibited in most of Europe. They are not just illegal, they're prohibited. FIFA has decided, having seen the amount of money that had been put on Polymarket on the World cup, if you can believe it. I checked this morning with close to half a billion dollars being bet just on the identity, who is going to win the World cup in 2026 on polymarket? It's absolutely crazy. So they obviously thought, we must make some money. So they went for a company that honestly didn't really exist. So everything's great. Everything's great. And by the way, we've got a little development in that story which we're publishing later on this afternoon. So go to USMRFootball.com for another very piquant detail about the identity of the new CEO of that company. But anyway, FIFA has signed the deal and that's it. It's more money in FIFA's coffers. You know, you name it. It's the usual stuff. And what is crazy, Max, in the long run, it will make absolutely no difference.

Max Rushden (56:52)

Well, do any of us exist would be perhaps their defense? We don't know. Maybe we're all just ephemeral in this thing. But, you know, good on you for doing some good work. Just my football.com because they are doing good things. And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Lars.

Lars Ibbotson (57:09)

Thank you, Max.

Max Rushden (57:10)

Thanks, Barry.

Barry Glendenning (57:11)

Thank you.

Max Rushden (57:12)

Good luck on your run, Barry. Blimey.

Barry Glendenning (57:14)

Oh, thank you. I'll need it.

Lars Ibbotson (57:16)

When is this? The weekend?

Max Rushden (57:18)

Sunday. It's Sunday. Okay. Last few days to get your Money to Barry JustGiving.com search Just Giving Barry Glenn Denning. Give him all your money. Thank you, Philippe. Merci, Monsieur Mercier. Football Weekly is produced by Ty Papula and Jesse Howard. Our executive producer is Joel Grove. We will be back on Monday. Barry may be alive. We will find out then. This is the Guardian.

Acast Announcer (58:04)

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

Knox and Jamie (58:12)

Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday, we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff.

Knox and Jamie (58:24)

Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners for their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. And we end every episode with recommendations on all the best new movies, books, TV shows, or music.

Knox and Jamie (58:40)

To find out more, just search up the Podcast with Knox and Jamie wherever you listen to podcasts and prepare to make Wednesday your new favorite day of the week.

Acast Announcer (58:51)

ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.