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Football Weekly
PSG and Bayern deliver an all-time classic – Football Weekly podcast
00:48:05
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Jonathan Wilson and Jonathan Liew to discuss Tuesday night’s Champions League thriller and Ipswich’s late push for automatic promotion
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- [00:00]
Jonathan Wilson
This is the Guardian.
- [00:10]
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- [00:30]
Max Rushden
We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the stadium.
- [00:40]
T-Mobile Advertiser
Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree at this here road.
- [00:44]
Barry Glendenning
Nah, I'm just kidding.
- [00:45]
Jonathan Wilson
Let me get my phone out.
- [00:46]
Max Rushden
How is there signal out here?
- [00:48]
T-Mobile Advertiser
T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together so the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn.
- [01:00]
Jonathan Wilson
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
- [01:04]
T-Mobile Advertiser
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- [01:37]
Max Rushden
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. That was a good game, wasn't it Barry? Game of the season. Best game since the last. Best game you can remember. PSG 5, Bayern 4. It was thrilling. Two teams completely committed to playing quick attacking football. So many brilliant players playing brilliantly. Kane put Bayern ahead. It could have been two. PSG came back. Kratz Schelier and then tiny man, Joao Neves with a header. Elise banged one in for two, two, then a game's gone. Penalty for three, two. PSG in the second half. Four, two, five, two. Did anyone think it was over? Five, three. And then the goal of the night. Kane's perfect pass. The touch of the night from Diaz to bring it down. Delay, delay and fire home. Wonderful stuff. Also last night, a huge game in the championship at St. Mary's and Jack Clark's late goal means Ipswich are in the box seat for promotion while Southampton settle for the playoffs. There's Man United's win over Brentford from Monday. Jose to Real Madrid. Question mark. And more of the feature of the season. Roy Hodgson, the Wild in the West Country. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendennig. Welcome.
- [02:42]
Baz
Hello, Max.
- [02:43]
Max Rushden
Hello. Johnny Liu.
- [02:45]
Jonathan Wilson
Hi.
- [02:45]
Max Rushden
And welcome. Jonathan Wilson.
- [02:48]
Barry Glendenning
Morning. How you doing?
- [02:49]
Max Rushden
I'm very well. Andrew says while PSG Bind was outstanding, how does it really hold up to Wrexham being 52 down at home to Dover after 63 minutes in March 2022, only to come back to win 65 with 91st and 96th minute strikes from local lad Jordan Davies? There's levels to this. PSG 5, Bayern 4. The highest scoring semi final in Champions League history. Nine goals, only 11 shots on target. Mama Neuer didn't actually have to make a save. First time in two and a half years that Bayern have conceded five in a game. I know you're not a goals guy, Wilson, but this was special, I thought, this football match.
- [03:25]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah, I mean, here we go, here we go. No, it was a little bit like, you know, if you get like a really good chocolate mousse and like the first two or three spoonfuls are amazing, and then you think, oh, God, I've still got a whole bowl of this and I'm starting to feel slightly nauseous. And by half time I was already thinking, this could do with some toasted oats, just to sort of calm it down. And by the end, I felt slightly nauseous. And so on one level, it was brilliant. Obviously it was. They're an incredible thing to watch. The level of attacking football was brilliant, the drama was brilliant. But I couldn't help thinking this is actually just an indictment of modern football, that this is what happens if you let half a dozen clubs get more money than everybody else by a massive margin. They can just accumulate all the best players there. And then in the domestic leagues, they never have to bother defending, so they don't actually know how to defend. And there's no midfields, there's no toasted oats, if you will. It's. It's all too much of one thing. And then maybe if Manuel Norrie had actually been tested at all in the Bundesliga the season, they'd have noticed that he's too old and they should have been got rid of years ago. He had an awful night. He was terrible. So it was brilliant. But it was sort of a hollow brilliance.
- [04:34]
Max Rushden
I felt, oh, well, there we are. That's pissed on everyone's chips, hasn't it? Do you go with that, Johnny?
- [04:45]
Jonathan Wilson
No. I mean, no, not really. I Mean easily.
- [04:49]
Barry Glendenning
Please just give him sugar. He'll be fine.
- [04:52]
Jonathan Wilson
No, it is good. I mean, I think the crux of the question here is whether this was bad defending or intentional non defending. I think there's a difference there. Like, is this a failure of defending or is this because everyone knows about the attacking talent on the pitch and both teams are aware that that's their strengths. So is this both teams just trying to play to their strengths or do they do it badly? And I think it's a bit of both. Like if you take the Elise goal for two all, which is a really, it's a great finish. But he also, he also takes the ball totally unopposed in what the, you know, the bit around the area, the bit that the nerds call zone 14. Like simple Pavlovic pass. He's got six players around him, but they're not close to him. So to me that's not a game plan, that's just bad football. Pavlovic should not be able to pick apart the midfield and defense of the European champions. But then you have the due chance from which the corner comes where neves makes it 2:1, which is A. Basically a simple throw out from Safinov and a si. Like a throw out from the keeper and suddenly Paris a three on three. Now to me, that's not bad defending. That's what company wants. That's the gamble he's kind of taken by and large. I think if a defender is three yards out of position, it's probably their fault and if they're 30 yards out of position, that's the coach's fault. So I think what we saw was a combat. I think Paris were just a little bit. I think Kompany was happier with, with the openness of the game. And I think Paris got suckered into it a little bit. And I think if the first leg was in Munich, it would be a very, very different game. You would get a much smarter Paris maybe trying to try to, to control the game a bit more, trying to bait by and a bit more and maneuver them around. And at 5:2, I think they basically have a foot in the final. But I'm not, you know, I'm not as confident. I think I still think they do it, but I'm not as confident now because I think they got. They missed a huge opportunity there to put the tie to bed.
- [06:39]
Max Rushden
I hate Barry to stereotype this panel as two sort of thinking man's journalists and then two sort of more rudimentary type people. But we are on, on me, me and you're on the bottom of the screen and I don't know about you. I was just like, this is a really entertaining football match and I haven't thought beyond that.
- [06:57]
Baz
Yeah, I mean, I think we're in a bad place when the cheerleading duties fall to me, but this is very much a first world problem. But I often resent the fact that I am often professionally obliged to watch terrible football matches. And this season I seem to have seen an awful lot more than I usually have to sit through. Whereas if I wasn't professionally obliged, I could just turn them off and go and do something else. But last night I was watching this and I felt sad for any football fan who couldn't watch it for whatever reason because they can't afford the subscription or they'd made other plans or, you know, whatever, because I enjoyed every second of this game. I enjoyed the fearless approach of both teams. I loved the speed, the movement, every touch was a rapier thrust. The absolute standout quality of all the attacking players on the pitch. Wayne Rooney and Clarence Seedor for they were being a bit grumpy like the two Jonathan's bemoaning the poor defending. But when I look back on the game and I watched the highlights again this morning, there were no conspicuously bad mistakes that led to goals that I can remember. There were no glaring errors. Neither goalkeeper made a mistake that was, you know, oh, he's dropped a clanger there. Just the quality of the attacking play by all sort of six front men was just brilliant.
- [08:47]
Jonathan Wilson
I loved it, by the way. I was really entertained. I didn't. I did not hate that. So I thought that was. I thought it was a brilliant game of football.
- [08:52]
Barry Glendenning
I'm just.
- [08:53]
Jonathan Wilson
I was just trying to, to analyze what happened.
- [08:55]
Baz
Fair enough. But like Nuno Mendez, say, and Hashraf Kimi are two of the best fullbacks on the planet and they both got absolutely rinsed last night and I'm not sure what else they could have done to, to be better, you know, just sometimes your man is too good for you and there's nothing you can do.
- [09:17]
Barry Glendenning
But that's where it's the coach's job to create a situation where the fullbacks aren't isolated, to make sure you always have cover there so they can't get run at you.
- [09:25]
Max Rushden
But isn't that the gamble Wilson, that you way they both play, is that you. You know, it's the blanket that doesn't cover everything, right? You. You can't have that. If you want to have the attacking talent that you have or can you attack and defend really well in the same team?
- [09:40]
Barry Glendenning
I mean, getting the balance right is, is what coaching is. It's not even just that that's the gamble they've taken, it's that it's almost the gamble they have to take. Because the truth is, in the domestic league, and I know LA pushed PSG relatively close this season, but I mean, Bayern had the League 1, I mean mathematically two or three weeks ago, but in reality in about November. So they never get to practice that. So if you suddenly ask, it's like when England used to go to a World cup and oh, it's going to be hot, we're going to have to pass the ball. I think they have no idea how to do it and therefore we're hopeless. Don't ask players to do a thing they haven't done all season. So you might as well attack because that is what you're good at. But then you get this game where there's just no midfield, which is odd as well.
- [10:24]
Max Rushden
Sorry. Because that's odd because their midfields, they are two brilliant midfields in these teams.
- [10:29]
Barry Glendenning
I think PSG is a brilliant midfield. I think Baynes is an okay, he's a decent midfielder. I mean, I think it's not what he was. Pavlovich is not quite what he might be. Yeah, PSG's midfield on paper looks brilliant. Yeah. But I mean if it's just not tested in that way. And I, I have to say I think Barry's been very kind to Neue. I think the I, I've lost, which goes over fourth and fifth goals. I think he's really flat footed. I, I think, yeah.
- [10:55]
Max Rushden
In the corner. Aren't they the Dembele one's off the post, isn't it?
- [10:59]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah, but he, he sort of, he set himself completely to go the other way. So he can't conceive the idea the ball might go as near post. I think he gets himself rooted far too early.
- [11:06]
Max Rushden
You know, we all know as people over 40, changing direction is very difficult. So Johnny Barry does make a really good point about the performances of the attacking players. I mean, I was trying to work out how to go through it. If we go through the goals chronologically, you almost touch on every player. So Harry Kane scores that penalty. Lewis Diaz won it. Like, I thought Kane was brilliant last night. I can't think of a wrong decision he made in the whole game.
- [11:30]
Jonathan Wilson
Yeah, Kane individually was great. I mean I, I think there is this, there is this idea, right, that he famously doesn't turn up in big games. And he seems to be. He seems to be now turning up in. In more and more of them.
- [11:42]
Barry Glendenning
Right.
- [11:43]
Jonathan Wilson
Like a Euro semi final and. And both legs of a Champions League quarter final and now Champions League semi final. Yeah, I mean, you could. You could go through all of them at least say like he could have had two or three potentially. There was one run where he basically gets all the way to the byline and there's a. It's almost an own goal. It sort of hits the post, but like an incredible run. Diaz cutting inside and running through the center and dragging defenders with him and yeah, I mean, look, we could talk about the attacking talent and it is, you know, I think the factors that Wilson mentioned, this is why superclos are able to. To attract this level of talent. But I think, you know, once you have multiple players who you basically can't leave one on one, I think it just changes the game. It just fundamentally rebalances the game to a huge extent. You're playing kind of different game because your only real option against that is to defend in numbers and which is obviously what most League 1 teams do. It's what most Bundesliga teams do against Bayern when they come up against Bayern having multiple players of that quality. And there's actually not that many if you think about players who you basically, you can't leave one on one. There's maybe like two dozen who in that situation will almost inevitably get a shot away or create a big chance. And once you have multiple players of that quality, it does make a completely different game because you are then forcing the opposition to really almost change the way that they want to set up.
- [13:17]
Max Rushden
Yeah. I thought Diaz was sensational, Barry, like just the way he carries the ball and I mean, he was good at Liverpool, but I feel like he has gone up a level and his touch for that goal is just ludicrous.
- [13:29]
Baz
Yeah. Again, Marinos is a brilliant defender. He's getting on a bit. But the way Diaz took the. The Harry Kane pass down gave him a couple of yards. Then the touch and the strike. He's brilliant throughout the game. I wonder what Liverpool fans must think when they see how well he's doing at Bayern Munich. He's part of a front three now that it's last night. They scored their hundredth goal between them this season. But yeah, he was brilliant. I mean, the Bayern front three is brilliant. Elise has also gone up several levels and Kane is just outstanding.
- [14:08]
Max Rushden
Yeah. And then, you know, we haven't talked about crowd Shalia yet. Wilson, it was, you know, it's just ridiculous. It was ridiculously good.
- [14:18]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah, I mean, he is ridiculously good. He basically does one thing, but he does it exceptionally well and nobody can really stop him. And I thought Wayne really's comment that he's a little bit like Mark Overmars. I mean, he is, but he's a bit more. A bit more powerful than Overmars. But the way he comes short and then spins it behind and you know he's going to go inside. I was just sort of. I just sort of started to think I had quite a quiet start because he put in that one one cross early on and literally as a thought sort of formed in my head, the ball's put through for him to cut in and equalize. You knew as soon as he starts, as soon as the weight goes him to come inside, you know that that's a goal from three or four seconds out. Yeah, you could say there's five or six of those players there, but he's just one of those players. I absolutely love watching.
- [15:03]
Max Rushden
Steve says, I can already imagine you've got your head in your hands over that penalty for psg. Michael says, ruining a game like this with a handball decision like that. I can hear Max Rushton yelling at a cloud from here. And he just called it a Max Rushton special. Joseph says, max, that's one of the best games of football ever. Please don't spend 75% of the PO about the handball. I've got to say, Johnny, I was so livid, just absolutely livid about it. And I, I am yelling at a clout. There's nothing I can do. Like, it's insane that that is now seen as a penalty by anyone. And there are people who go, no, that is a handball. He's actually intentionally moved his hand out and in. It's coming at such pace. I don't know who I'm talking to anymore. But like, it, it really, it saddens me that you get a penalty for that.
- [15:47]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah, it was a bit harsh.
- [15:48]
Max Rushden
Yeah, thanks, Johnny.
- [15:50]
Barry Glendenning
It was a bit harsh.
- [15:51]
Jonathan Wilson
I, like, I don't have a huge amount more to say than that.
- [15:53]
Baz
I mean, well, this is what always happens. Max shouts and Cloud, we all kind of agree with him and then we move on. I don't think it ruined the game. I think it added no spectacle. I mean, the question is, which of these two teams is happier? I think they're probably both quite happy with that result because Byron looked in danger of being down and out at 5 2, but they got it back to 5 4. They're at home next week and PSG will be happy because they won. And I saw Lewis Enrique being interviewed after the game and he was very happy.
- [16:24]
Jonathan Wilson
So Kane thought that Bayern had enough chances to make the game safe early on, which I think it raises an interesting question, like, how many goals would you have needed to make that game safe?
- [16:35]
Max Rushden
Because certainly early on, five, two, I definitely think. Didn't think, oh, this is done. I just didn't think it was done.
- [16:40]
Jonathan Wilson
So, yeah, seven, maybe.
- [16:44]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah. Well, my concern for PSG was how knackered they look the last 10 minutes. That's not a good sign because it means if Bayern are within touch with 10, 15 minutes to go next week, then they can get back into it. But on the penalty, even if the ball hit his hand directly, I don't think that should be a penalty, but it flicks his upper thigh and hip on the way onto his hand. I mean, the problem is that you can say it didn't change the game, but PSG won by one, and that is one goal. If they end up winning the tie by that, it just feels cheap.
- [17:18]
Max Rushden
But what do we do about it? Wilson? I've tweeted ifab. They don't reply. I've emailed ifab. They don't listen to me. Other people must have more power.
- [17:28]
Barry Glendenning
The Premier League have got this right, basically, with handball. Premier League is not in a bad place for handball. It's not perfect, but it's a lot, lot better than the new afa. It's those petty Eurocrats who impose their piddling regulations. We need to break away from you and set out alone.
- [17:48]
Max Rushden
But that's it. But that's the trouble, isn't it? Like, maybe that could. Are you saying that is the one benefit of Brexit, is that the handball law is fine at the Premier League and it was worth it.
- [17:58]
Barry Glendenning
I mean, the FA has never been that beholden to UEFA, so. No, but it does feel like, I don't know, is there a greater Euro tolerance for interfering bureaucracy? I don't know. Whereas our proud, independent spirit means our island nation goes it alone.
- [18:17]
Max Rushden
Johnny, who do you think is in a better position now going into the second leg?
- [18:23]
Jonathan Wilson
I still think Paris will do it, but Bayern will definitely go into that game, that they will believe that in front of a home crowd, that if they can get an early goal, certainly that they can, you know, they can overturn that, you know, And I think the belief in that team that we saw at five, two down is that whatever, whatever you score, we'll just Score one more, you score 12, we'll score 13. And you know, that can be incredibly powerful in incredibly powerful belief when you're chasing a game. But as Barcelona discovered against Insa last season, it could also be a kind of a curse because teams are always finding ways to cut you open and you can, you can never really put a game to bed. So I, you know, I don't. Unless Paris, you know, get two or three early goals, I really think it'll be a bit of a nail biter.
- [19:09]
Max Rushden
Obviously, lots of goals doesn't equal, you know, it's not like it's not linear in terms of. That means it's a better game. So what is your perfect game of football? That's what I mean, what is the. What's the perfect Wilson football match?
- [19:21]
Barry Glendenning
I think, yeah, I'd want a bit more balance between attack and defense. I, I want to feel the goals are sort of hard earned rather than just sort of happening. I certainly want goalkeepers playing better than they did last night.
- [19:31]
Max Rushden
I thought Safonov did okay, actually.
- [19:33]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah.
- [19:33]
Max Rushden
I'm sort of with Barry. I don't think either of them were terrible in this game.
- [19:36]
Barry Glendenning
I think he is. Well, I think that's very generous. But did they make one save between them? Of note, Safanov made a few, came out low down to his left. Yeah.
- [19:46]
Max Rushden
So what do you want? A three two or a two one or. It's not.
- [19:50]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah, I think once you get into more than sort of certainly more than seven goals, I'm feeling uncomfortable. It's just got a bit silly.
- [19:58]
Max Rushden
Okay.
- [19:59]
Barry Glendenning
It's about balance. Right. You don't, you, you know.
- [20:01]
Max Rushden
Yeah. So could you pick out, so, so could you take emotion out of football? Obviously there are Sunderland games that will mean more to you than others, but like, can you objectively think of a football match that you've gone. This, this is the gold standard of a football match.
- [20:13]
Barry Glendenning
I think Spain, Yugoslavia in year 2000 was a really great game. 43 to Spain. So that was seven goals?
- [20:20]
Max Rushden
That was seven, yeah.
- [20:21]
Baz
You need at least one red card. There was a. Was it a Spain, Netherlands match in a World cup or Euros years? No, Portugal, Netherlands.
- [20:30]
Max Rushden
Oh, yeah.
- [20:31]
Jonathan Wilson
Battle of Nuremberg.
- [20:32]
Barry Glendenning
Battle of Nuremberg, 2006. 2, 2, 16 yellow cards, 4 reds. Referee was Valentin Ivanov.
- [20:41]
Baz
Can I just circle back here? I think Wilson is being incredibly hard on the goalkeepers here. The only one I can think of where a goalkeeper was at fault was Usmani Dembele's shot that he pulled in off the post where Neuer was caught really flat. Footed because he was expecting him to go the other side. And apart from that, I've just. I've just gone through all the goals and I do not see what more either keeper could have done to keep them out. Really.
- [21:13]
Barry Glendenning
Neue literally dies out the way of the fourth goal.
- [21:16]
Max Rushden
He.
- [21:17]
Barry Glendenning
He tries to predict where Koscani is going to put it and guesses wrong. And also, I don't think Safanov with the Elise goal, but he's in the middle of the goal. Why is. Why has he tried to guess and dive too tight?
- [21:28]
Max Rushden
He's absolutely banged.
- [21:30]
Barry Glendenning
Why is he diving that early?
- [21:33]
Max Rushden
I think you are being.
- [21:34]
Barry Glendenning
I don't like keepers predicting like that. I think you're being generous. So that's where we are.
- [21:39]
Baz
We need. We need to send up the. The Joe Hart or Shea given Claxton.
- [21:46]
Barry Glendenning
Well, I mean, they won't see as being a goalkeeper error, will they?
- [21:48]
Max Rushden
I mean, sure, I mean, I'd go. I'd ask Beaver first, but yeah, Simon says, sure, the goals were good, but did you see the way PSG booted the ball straight out of play from Kickoff Football Heritage? No, I'm a huge fan of this. I'm trying to get our Sunday League team to do this, but there are too many purists in the side and I'm saying, look, PSG are doing it, for goodness sake. It's fine for territory. Box them in. But they're like, oh, let's keep the ball. Anyway, producer Tayo says, by how many goals will Arsenal Athletic outscore tonight's ballfest? Yeah, so we have Athletic Arsenal. It does seem, Johnny, it's almost too predictable to be like, well, this will be terrible and it may not be terrible. We don't know, you know, Athletic are not the athletic that we all think they are, as Sid has established. But what are we expecting?
- [22:35]
Jonathan Wilson
No, I mean, Athletic haven't been the athletic of the popular imagination in arguably
- [22:40]
Barry Glendenning
five or six years.
- [22:41]
Jonathan Wilson
They've been got quite, quite reliably entertaining in La Liga this season. I think the question is whether whether Arsenal can break them down, whether Arsenal can get over their own neuroses and neuroses and get over their own kind of incoherence and actually put together an attacking performance worthy of the name. Because if they do, I think it could actually be an entertaining game. There's no. I mean, there's nothing that says that this is doomed to be a nil nil or a 1nil. There are also plenty of very good attacking players in the semi final. But, yeah, I mean, I Think, you know, a lot of my Arsenal friends going, how are we in the. How are we even in the same competition as these two? As Bayern and psg, there was a real kind of inferiority complex that seems to have set in. But they have an incredible opportunity to, to get, to get to a Champions League final and well, I hope for their sake that they embrace it because this is, this is a tie that is there for, for the taking really.
- [23:36]
Max Rushden
And if Arsenal do get through, which is a big if Wilson, is that a more interesting football match, seeing two styles pitted against each other?
- [23:43]
Barry Glendenning
So if they get through to play PSG or buying. Yeah, not necessarily. Maybe. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean I, I think I'd have athletic favorites, actually. I think I know the 25 points off the top, but they've kind of jacked in the league. I mean they'd lost four in a row and they before the weekend, but they've been a funny team this season. I'd like go that they've played Barcelona six times, they've beaten them twice, but somehow they seem to have won the ones they needed to win. And I think Gresmann and Julian Alvarez are probably going to be the best two forwards on the pitch. So given I think how tense Arsenal would be and how good Simeone sides are at playing on that. Yeah, look, I'm not saying it's 100% Atletico win, but I'd probably have him 55, 45 favorites.
- [24:26]
Max Rushden
Any strong thoughts? Bazaar?
- [24:28]
Baz
Arsenal played Atletico in the group stage. I think it was the third round. Beat them four nil. They know what they can do against Athletico, but that was a different Arsenal to the one we've seen in recent months because the current Arsenal are paralyzed by fear and seem to be their own worst enemies. But if they can channel the the Arsenal, that's be Atletico 4 nil, you know, before Christmas, then of course they've got a chance.
- [24:58]
Max Rushden
I suppose if they do beat them 4 nil in both legs, they've got a very good chance of making it through to the final, don't they? Anyway, that'll do for part one. Part two we'll begin with a big game in the Championship last night.
- [25:14]
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- [25:43]
Max Rushden
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So in the championship, it was a massive game at St. Mary's ended Southampton 2, Ipswich 2, which means Southampton are out of the automatic promotion race in the playoffs. Ipswich are in the box seat now on 81 points. Millwall have 80 and Middlesbrough 79. So it goes down to the final day. You watched this game as well, Barry. What did you make of it?
- [26:05]
Baz
It was a good game. Ipswich will feel they left that automatic promotion place behind them. They could have wrapped it up last night once. Jack Clark was outstanding for Ipswich but had two late, late chances to win the game for them and seal promotion. One hit the post, hit the goalkeeper and went wide. Could have gone in, you know, that was desperately unlucky. Then he had an elite shot. Superbly saved by Peretz in the Southampton goal. So Ipswich will be gutted they didn't wrap up promotion last night, but it makes things very interesting for the rest of us at the weekend. I think it's Saturday lunchtime. These games are being played because it's. Think you called it a Monday. It's going to be a real bonfight for that second automatic promotion spot.
- [26:57]
Max Rushden
Yeah. Wind rips which takes them up. They're home to qpr, Millwall home to Oxford who are already relegated. Middlesbrough have the toughest game. They go to Wrexham, who do need the points to be sure of a playoff spot. And they are in a fight for the last playoff spot with Haaland, Derby, Hull host Norwich and Derby host Sheffield United.
- [27:13]
Baz
Sorry, just before you move on from the championship, Max, I was chatting to a fellow yesterday, a Sheffield Wednesday fan who is going to Hillsborough for their final game of the season. They're still dreaming of hitting the magical zero point mark this season. And apparently Hillsborough is going to be an absolute sellout and they're expecting the biggest crowd in the championship this season of any championship game. And I think that is an absolute heroic effort by Wednesday fans.
- [27:50]
Max Rushden
Yeah, isn't it? Adult Trafford. On Monday night Manchester United beat Brentford 2 1. So that moves them third onto 61 points and now 11 points clear of Brian in sixth. What did you make of this game, Johnny?
- [28:02]
Jonathan Wilson
Yeah, I thought United were okay. You know, there was. They were decent value in the first half and then I think Brentford came back at them quite hard in the second half and had Thiago taken, taken in one of those chances that they got, it could have been like a very, very different story. I still don't really know what United are trying to be. There have been clearly a lot of good individual performances you know, I thought Mainoo was. Was really good. They were obviously heavily reliant on Bruno. Still, for the creative part of the game. I still don't see a. What Carrick is trying to make them. There's been a lot of, you know, talk about, you know, returning to solid United values or whatever. And from, you know, from the games that I've seen of them under him, it's almost been quite a bit of a mishmash. You know, they've played a lot of games where they've. Against opposition you'd expect them to be, you know, the Leeds game, for example, or the Bournemouth game where they just kind of get stuck and, you know, I don't know whether that's. That's teething problems or whether it's. It's almost a side that still has almost got a little bit of a free hit to the end of the season and are almost waiting for someone to stamp a kind of identity on them, because I don't really see what they're trying to do yet. But they've clearly made it into the Champions League next season. I think that's almost mathematically secure. So that's great for the cash machines. I'm interested to see what they do in the summer because I still haven't quite got a sense of what they're trying to be.
- [29:29]
Max Rushden
Because it is worth saying, and I think I'm right, and I've said it before, that they were just one point ahead of Tottenham when Carrick took over. So he's. He's undoubtedly done a good job. But do you think, like, it feels like they should give him the job, like he's done enough, but do you think that is. You don't know if that would be the right call or not?
- [29:45]
Jonathan Wilson
Yeah, I don't think we know. I think the job that Carrick has now is like. It's really different to the job that. That is going to await him, you know, next season. And what happens when they go into that, you know, their first dip, because they're not. Obviously they're not good enough yet to go and get 85, 90 points and search the title. There are going to be peaks and troughs and because of the way that noise is amplified, how does Carrick deal with that? I think the Solskjaer parallels are kind of overdone a little bit. I think Carrick is a better coach than Solskjaer was at this stage of taking the United job. But it is a big leap in the dark because there are going to be good coaches available this summer who United could get. And if they don't, if they don't go and get those coaches, if they do kind of throw their lot in with Carrick and they're, you know, mid table in November and they have to sack him, it will feel like they've done the wrong thing.
- [30:36]
Max Rushden
Sure, but it's so impossible, Johnny, isn't it? Jonathan Rather. Because if they don't hire Carrick and they get a big name, a different name in a, you know, a coach with more experience, whatever, and they're not, they don't go off to a flyer, there's just lots of people going, you know, DNA. You had Michael Carrick.
- [30:53]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah, absolutely. And it's really hard to tell, partly because they've essentially been playing with no pressure this season, but also because he went out of both Cups at the earliest possible opportunity and didn't have Europe. They haven't, in the entire season played a team who's played less football than them. They've been as fresh or fresher than every single opponent they've played. And you look at how shattered, for instance, Arsenal look. But, I mean, not just Arsenal, but Arsenal, I think, really are showing the fatigue. Well, of course, United don't show that because they've played 40 games at the end of a season. So how do you possibly judge? And the only way you can judge is if you're on the inside. And you hope some directors have somehow got a handle on what players think, on what players are doing, get a sense of how he is around the dressing room, around the club, and that's all you can base your decision on. But he's almost, you know, if you were trying to create a situation where the decision is impossible, you couldn't have made it better than this. That he hasn't been so brilliant that you think you've got to give him a job. It's not like they're going out playing sparkling football, winning every game, 4, 5, 6, nil. And they haven't been rubbish either. They've been pretty good with the odd blip. And in some ways it's good that they have. The defeat to Leeds, for instance, and then were able to come back and win. That tells you a little bit that it wasn't just, you know, a balloon waiting to be burst. But I still really have no idea how good a coach Michael Carrick is. And I'm really glad I don't have to make the decision.
- [32:23]
Baz
Yeah, I think it's. It's one of those. So Jim Ratcliffe and his Politburo of. As Dion Fanning memorably called it. It's kind of changed since those days, but they get a lot of grief for making bad decisions. But this is going to be a gamble, whatever they decide. And it's a. Really. Because Carrick's. He's won nine games, drawn two, lost two. The players seem to like him, the fans seem to like him, but he hasn't really done much. Like he just picked Kobimenu and moved Bruno forward 20 meters closer to goal. That isn't exactly rocket science or tactical genius. And I mean, they beat Brentford, but Brentford, if Igor Thiago had not been so uncharacteristically poor, should have won that game.
- [33:20]
Max Rushden
Yeah, but isn't that, you know, isn't that just being harsh on Carrick because it is hard to win any Premier League, right? Winning Premier games is not easy. And if you've won nine out of what, 13. That is actually you.
- [33:33]
Baz
You obviously didn't see nothing of Forest place under the Friday.
- [33:37]
Max Rushden
No, no, no. Or Brighton played Chelsea the other you. You make a good point. I don't know. I. I agree with you. I think it's very difficult. The other interesting point on that, Johnny, is, is this idea because, you know, if you remember last season when Tottenham beat Man United in the Europa League final, it was like, well, one side is set and one side is. This is a disaster.
- [33:55]
Barry Glendenning
Right?
- [33:55]
Max Rushden
You know, Man United are. You know, this is. They're not in any European football whatever. But actually if your squad isn't big enough and then you have to play both European football and Premier League football, and I. Tottenham is an extreme example of that, given the injuries that they have and still have. But, like, it's almost good to come 11th if you're a big team and then you just have a free season and you can be good without and you can be fresh. And I think, like, if your players are fitter and. And less tired, that makes such a massive difference.
- [34:26]
Jonathan Wilson
It can be. I mean, I do think fatigue is one of the. The elements in. In football these days that it probably isn't talked about enough. Partly because we don't, you know, we don't have kind of the, the proprietary data. Playing 50 or 60 games a season does to, you know, how do you quantify the performance impact of that load? And obviously there are people within clubs, there are people within the game who will have a handle on that. But it's clearly such a big part of the game. In terms of Spurs, I'm not sure staying out of the Champions League, I think they'd have just been even sadder, even sooner. Champions League was a little crumb of comfort in what has been a dismal season for them. But I think generally speaking, we don't really know what the fact that Villa have done well in Europe and Forest have done well and palace have done pretty well, we don't really know what kind of effect that's had on their league campaign, how, you know, palace certainly look as though they've put all their eggs in the Conference League basket that they are. They're being pretty Glasner's been pretty honest about his rotation policy, but it's a huge boost to a coach, to a certain kind of coach who want six days on the training field to work with them. And I think certainly United have benefited from that this season and how they balance all of those conflicting schedules and competitions next season is, I guess, another element to it.
- [35:52]
Max Rushden
I mean, I think Barry would say for someone who has to sit on every pre show small talk, I do talk about fatigue a great deal. I'd say it's perhaps talked about, perhaps talked about too much. Cobby may have signed a new five year deal. Reports indicate his wages jumped from 25 grand a week to something like 150 grand a week. God, that's a. That'd be a nice thing to sign, wouldn't it? And Brentford are still just two points off six despite no wind in their last six. Anyway, that'll do for part two. Part three will begin with Jose to Real Madrid Question mark.
- [36:25]
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- [37:10]
Max Rushden
Welcome to Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So David Ordenstein posting that Jose Mourinho is the preferred candidate of Florentino Perez to become the next Real Madrid head coach. Support not universal inside Real Madrid, but President, President, Driving process so the 63 year old is a strong contender. He has a 3 million pound break clause with Benfica. Is it a surprise, Baz, this or not a surprise to you?
- [37:34]
Baz
It has just come as a surprise to me because I wasn't aware of this, so you've blindsided me with that one. I am not a fan of Jose Marino. I think he's a really unpleasant man. Boss, I actually think this might not be as mad as it sounds because that dressing room needs someone to come in and instill some discipline and an authoritative figure like Jose could be just what the doctor ordered because, yeah, that dressing room is out of control. Wild players don't listen to the coach and they might listen to him. So my, my first impression, without really giving it much thought, is that as crazy as it sounds, it might not be a ridiculous thing for them to do.
- [38:21]
Barry Glendenning
Wilson, I mean, I think the big thing is how the dressing room, and particularly Vinicius, reacts to Mourinho's comments after the Benfica, Real Madrid game when Prestiani, he ended up getting a six game ban for homophobic abuse. Although the initial allegation was of racial abuse of Vinicius. And Mourinho came up with some very strange comments after that, sort of saying, how could this club ever racially abuse. How could anybody, this club ever racially abused anybody when Eusebio was one of our great players? I'm not sure how Vinicius will take that. And clearly Vinicius had the support of his teammates if you look at what happened on the pitch. So that would seem to me a really obvious sticking point. Now, I don't know, maybe Vinicius has moved on and doesn't care, I don't know. But that's certainly something we would need resolving, I think.
- [39:12]
Max Rushden
Yeah, I suppose the interesting thing, Johnny, is who can be a good coach for Real Madrid? Zidane is good and Ancelotti was good, but it's like, what do you have to be to be good there?
- [39:25]
Jonathan Wilson
We talked about this, right? It's almost like there's no other club that really prepares you for the Real Madrid job because the currents, the internal politics, the level of expectations, the primacy of the dressing room, I guess, and then of course, the totemistic figure of Perez. The internal currents of that job are almost unique and it's very hard predicting which coaches are going to succeed at it and not, you know, Mourinho, when he goes there in 2010, you'd say is basically at the, at the peak of his powers and just about, I think, manages to do. He does an okay job there. He wins from the league, which he still keeps banging on about. But is he, is he the man who's going to get the best out of the slightly uneven array of talent that Madrid have now? I'm not really sure, you know, and you know, we talked about the Vinicius Prestiani incident. I wonder if a lot of Madrid fans are going to want to have him in place. They obviously want, you know, they made little secret of the fact that they wanted Jurgen Klopp and they were trying to, you know, they're trying to persuade Klopp might still manage to do it, but doesn't appear to be much progress on that for now.
- [40:32]
Max Rushden
Yeah, but on that point, like Klopp would have to change his style, wouldn't he? Like they wouldn't do what Klopp wanted them to do. Or would they do it because Klopp is Klopp?
- [40:40]
Jonathan Wilson
No, I mean, the Alonso appointment was really interesting because it was almost an attempt to synthesize this kind of the Madridismo, the kind of the club culture, the club DNA sort of appointment with a coach who is clearly very hands on, who has very defined ideas of what he wants a team to do and how he wants them to run and play and press and pass. And it got to a point where they just weren't having it. So I think that that should be a kind of a wake up call for them that they essentially have created a team that only a certain kind of coach can ever really get a tune out of. And I think that's quite an invidious position for them to be in because it basically rules them out of 80 or 90% of the up and coming coaches in world football.
- [41:28]
Max Rushden
At the World cup, players you mentioned, Prestiani, who cover their mouths could face getting a red card if they cover their mouths when speaking to opponents during confrontations. This decision was taken during a special meeting of Ifab in Vancouver where presumably they didn't talk about the handball door. Also, players who leave the pitch in protest at a referee's decision could face a red card. Following what happened in AFCON between Morocco and Senegal, both law changes have been approved as competition opt ins by Ifab and yellow cards are to be reset after the group stage as well as after the quarterfinal. So that, that, that feels like a good idea. Everyone think that a good idea?
- [42:07]
Barry Glendenning
Well, look, it's better than what was before, but I mean, the obvious thing to do, the right thing to do is after the last 16, you cancel group stage yellow cards. Because to be honest, if you're Getting two yellow cards and you know within four games you should be getting a ban. And what you don't want, if you don't get booked in the first two group games, you've got carte blanche to take a yellow in the third group game. That's a bad idea. So after the last 16 or after the last 32, now the Tottenham's expanded delete yellow cards from the group stage
- [42:38]
Jonathan Wilson
or if you're already through after, you know, if you're 4 nil up in your second group game, you can take a yellow card and know that you're going to be banned for a dead rubber in the third game.
- [42:47]
Barry Glendenning
I mean that's pretty hard to avoid. I'm not sure how you do avoid that but.
- [42:50]
Jonathan Wilson
And avoid having to take that. Yeah.
- [42:51]
Barry Glendenning
I don't know how you could structure it. Where were that. That didn't happen. But I don't know why they're so reluctant to sort of not just sort of have the amnesty sort of backdated slightly, which would seem to solve a lot of problems.
- [43:06]
Max Rushden
John Stones has confirmed he'll be leaving Manchester City in the summer as a free agent. He announced on Instagram. Man City released a glowing official statement as well, calling him the very embodiment of Pep Guardiola City and praising his astute reading of the game. He was Pep's second ever signing when he came from Everton for 50 million 293 appearances so far, 19 major trophies, six Premier League titles, a Champions League, so. And we had a really nice message on this subject from someone called Freddy who said seeing John Stones and Milano Silver announce their departure from Man City is something I did not think I'd find emotional. I'm a Liverpool fan, so if anything I'd be happy to never see these players who've been the cause of so much stress again. John Stone's goal line clearance, that might have been the difference in us lifting another Premier League trophy and Bernardo Silva waltzing through the middle of the park anytime we played them. The reason it's so bittersweet is that almost a year ago to the day of writing this, my dad passed away after a five month long battle with a very aggressive type of melanoma, skin cancer. He was a lifelong Man City fan. You can imagine the friction that might have caused over the years. And for so long I would have wanted City to have pissed off for a bit and let Liverpool dominate, maybe like that Klopp team deserved. But there they were with accompanying text messages from dad. Anytime they beat us over 90 minutes or over 38 games. It's funny how grief can change that. It's now a fond memory that for so long, my dad's and my team were the two top teams fighting for everything, and now I would not change a single moment or the exchanges that were had over it. Pending the PSR findings, of course.
- [44:28]
Barry Glendenning
Course.
- [44:28]
Max Rushden
He says his two favorite players were Stones, who, in Dad's word, was the epitome of the Rolls Royce, and Bernardo Silva, who he affectionately called Bubblegum as the ball just stuck to his foot. I'm not sure if I'm writing on behalf of my dad to make sure these two greats of the modern era are acknowledged or for myself to acknowledge that grief in football does strange things in a sport that's often passed down the generations from father to son. It must be so prominent for so many people, not just me. So thank you to John Stones and Bernardo Silva for the role you've played in my life, even if I hate the team you play for. And thank you, dad, for making me fall in love with the game in the same way you did. It's a beautiful message, Freddie. Thank you for that.
- [45:03]
Baz
Is there any talk of where Stones will go?
- [45:07]
Max Rushden
I heard some Everton rumors which would really make sense, I guess.
- [45:12]
Baz
Sorry, I don't. I don't want to disparage Everton, but I. Is he not a bit of a cut above Everton?
- [45:18]
Max Rushden
I don't know.
- [45:19]
Baz
High flying Everton.
- [45:20]
Max Rushden
Flying Everton with Everton Cup. Everton, they're not getting relegated, so I don't know is the answer. I don't. I'm too lazy to have sources. Barry reports in Spain, he's willing to take a pay cut to join Barcelona, but Everton and Coventry also linked. So there you go. That's from the BBC. Mark says Roy Hodgson spotted in the West Country. KLAXON what a day at Scoops. This is on Scoops Western Supermare Facebook page. An ice cream shop. We were thrilled to welcome a very special guest. Roy Hodgson stopped by for a visit. Football emoji. It was an absolute pleasure serving such a legend of the game. From managing at the very top level to popping in for a sweet treat. He couldn't have been more lovely. APPLAUSE Emoji Moments like this make what we do even more special. Great people, great vibes and, of course, great ice cream. Ice cream emoji. Thanks for coming in, Roy. You're welcome back anytime. Scoops moments. Special guest. Roy Hodgson, football legend. Ice cream time. Hashtag sweet treats. Locallove and there's Roy, looking very happy. He's having a Great time.
- [46:26]
Jonathan Wilson
Right.
- [46:26]
Baz
That's like one of Dan Bardell's Instagram posts.
- [46:31]
Max Rushden
I was gonna say.
- [46:32]
Barry Glendenning
Yes, Wilson, have I told you about when I met Rhea Ferdinand in an ice cream shop?
- [46:36]
Max Rushden
You haven't, but we. Listen, it's quite a short pod, so fill your.
- [46:40]
Barry Glendenning
I'm afraid to say he did not behave with dignity. He was in Baden in 2006 and he jumped the queue. He pushed in front of me. I was disgusted by him and I'm afraid it confirmed some opinions I'd already held about him and have not changed since.
- [46:55]
Max Rushden
Was it a chat? Chat and cut. Like, did he. Did he chat to somebody? Just, you know, because there's a difference between just marching in front of you and like, maybe, I don't know, Wayne Rooney was there too and he sort of went to talk to Wayne Rooney and then it happened to be in front of you.
- [47:09]
Barry Glendenning
No, just barged in front and did
- [47:11]
Max Rushden
you say, excuse me, Rio?
- [47:13]
Barry Glendenning
I. No, I didn't. I should have done. But I was. I mean, I was still in my twenties then. Right. I was a very young man. I didn't quite have the same. What's the word?
- [47:24]
Baz
Confidence.
- [47:26]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah. So, I mean, I was. I was thinking of a more negative word, but let's go with confidence. Yes.
- [47:30]
Jonathan Wilson
Were you expecting him to leap out with a camera crew and like the world. The World cup wind ups?
- [47:36]
Max Rushden
Yeah. I mean, I've got to say, Johnny, that is. I mean, if he said. And now we're going to prank football writer Jonathan Wilson by getting in front of him to order arts. One scoop of pistachio. I just don't think that's going to get the hits they're expecting. I don't know if any of you have seen this. A video posted by someone called Tom Feeney going. The problem with all the Rochdale v. York videos is just when you think you've seen every angle you spot a and then capital letters Rochdale fan emptying their dead loved ones ashes on the center spot while celebrating their inverted commas winner. Of course before York went on to win. Afterwards it is inconclusive. But there is somebody on the center spot spot with a plus of plastic bag and like tipping it as you would tip ashes onto the center spot and then embracing someone. But that is some moment to then go back to the crowd and then see York score a winning goal scattering ashes.
- [48:32]
Barry Glendenning
I don't know if any of you have done it, but it's really difficult.
- [48:34]
Max Rushden
Is it? I mean, I. There's a Mel Brooks film, isn't it?
- [48:36]
Baz
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Barry Glendenning
There are A lot of them, yes. I. I scattered my dad's ashes off a pier at. Off worker pier in Sunderland. And it wasn't a windy day by the standards of the North Sea, but there's always a breeze. So obviously the logic was, I'll tip on the outside of the pier so that it goes out to sea rather than just being swept back up the weir, back where he's come from, as it were. And most of it was one of my trousers ended up just going in the washing machine. And then my mam's ashes I scattered near a bit of forest near Ulstwater in the Lake District. The sort of tipping was fine. Cause it was sort of like a bank comes down. There's a bench with a view that you really liked. And then just in front of the bench there's quite a low wall. It drops quite suddenly to this field with cows in. So I was able to tip it over the wall into this sort of long grass, so there wasn't this sort of blowback effect. But then I went for a walk and I came back a couple hours later and there was a bit of wind and there was a family sitting on the bench eating a picnic. And I was like, oh, no. Like. Like you're probably eating, eating the ashes of my man. That's not. Oh, no. What do I do?
- [49:43]
Max Rushden
Yeah. I think you could have said something to Rio Ferdinand. I think even though you had more confidence at this time, you were better not to tell the family that.
- [49:52]
Barry Glendenning
Yes.
- [49:52]
Max Rushden
That, you know, amidst their ham sandwich was some small part of your mother. Anyway, seems like a good place to end, doesn't it? Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Johnny.
- [50:03]
Barry Glendenning
Cheers, Max.
- [50:04]
Max Rushden
Thanks, Wilson.
- [50:05]
Barry Glendenning
Cheers. Thank you.
- [50:06]
Max Rushden
Thanks, Baz.
- [50:07]
Baz
Thank you.
- [50:08]
Max Rushden
Football Weekly is produced by Silence. Great. Our executive producer is Joel Grove and we'll be back tomorrow. This is the Guardian.