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Football Weekly
Rio’s teenage kick caps a thriller at St James’ Park – Football Weekly
00:50:13
Max Rushden is joined by John Brewin, Lucy Ward and Jonathan Liew as Liverpool beat Newcastle 3-2 away from home thanks to a debut goal in the 99th minute from teenager Rio Ngumoha
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- [00:00]
Johnny Liu
This is the Guardian.
- [00:11]
Derek Clason
Hi, I'm Derek Clason, host of the Athletic Football Show. Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the same nationwide coverage, network speed and service. Consumers are used to plus but at more affordable prices. Why would you pay more if you don't have to? Boost Mobile also understands that change can be scary, which is why they allow you to try their service risk free for 30 days. And if you're not happy, you can get your money back. So start saving on wireless today with Boost Mobile's unlimited plans starting at just $25 a month. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find us online@boostmobile.com After 30GB, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded. The Boost Mobile network, together with their roaming partners, covers 98% of the US population. 5G speeds are not available in all.
- [01:11]
Lucy Ward
Areas, only Boost Mobile. Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.
- [01:18]
John Bruin
New 5G phone?
- [01:19]
Max Rushton
Enough, but I'm your hype man.
- [01:20]
Derek Clason
When you purchase an eligible device, you.
- [01:22]
John Bruin
Get $25 off every month for 12.
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Lucy Ward
Months with credits totaling one year of.
- [01:25]
Johnny Liu
Free service tax extra for the device and service plan.
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Lucy Ward
Online only.
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Max Rushton
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. And when Hugo Ekitike put Liverpool two up early in the second half against 10 man Newcastle, you'd be forgiven for turning the TV off and going to bed. At least I hope I'm forgiven for turning the TV off and going to bed. What an end to this game. William A with his first Premier League goal to get a point for Newcastle. The least they deserved in the 18th minute before Szoboszlai's beautiful dummy 16 year old Rio Ngamoa wins it for Liverpool. It was a breathless game. Thank goodness we didn't have to watch all of it on ref cam. Newcastle were excellent with 11 and with 10 after Anthony Gordon's daft and poor challenge on Van Dijk. But Liverpool have two wins from two without being that good. Also today we'll talk Max Dauman and the ethics and practicalities of a 15 year old playing Premier League football. We have Leeds, Man United and Spurs on the panel so we'll get their Thoughts on those. Plus the latest transfer news. Your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Johnny Liu. Welcome.
- [02:28]
John Bruin
Hello.
- [02:28]
Max Rushton
Hello. Lucy Ward.
- [02:30]
Lucy Ward
Hi Max.
- [02:31]
Max Rushton
And good morning. John Bruin.
- [02:32]
John Bruin
Good morning. Max Rushton.
- [02:33]
Max Rushton
Let's start at St James's Park. Then Newcastle 2, Liverpool 3. I mean what a game. Lucy. It was brilliant, wasn't it?
- [02:42]
Lucy Ward
Honestly it was. It was excellent. And when that second goal went in just after halftime I thought oh, probably just sort of spoils it a little bit because you know, 2 nil up like blah blah. I just think that Newcastle were excellent. Probably better when they were down to 10. And I think it shows you as well. All these people are trying to make football an exact science. That you can never allow it to be an ex. It's not an exact science. You cannot take account of the crowd. Momentum, resilience, determination. Things that you can't quantify. And I think that game last night certainly showed that. Liverpool really struggled to take advantage of. Of the extra man. But they did it in the most brilliant way. Right at the end where they drew. I think they just drew Newcastle into Canate. And it was a fantastic goal. And Gamoa. I mean he's not lacking confidence. And that's. We will go on to talk about younger players but just that sort of no fear whatsoever. And it isn't a fear. They just enjoy it. You know at that age they don't have the consequences in the head. They don't have the. We were not going to get three points. They just have let's go on and see what I can do. Hitting it first time at that. That decision making. Incredible. But yeah, what a game.
- [03:50]
Max Rushton
Yeah. Just to mark your card. Engamoa. He's 17 in three days. But you are 16 until you're 17. 29th of August 2008. I kissed a girl. Katy Perry was number one. And Lucy's right John, isn't she? The goal. Because Liverpool didn't create much. But actually that move. And for every part of that move it was brilliant football. And to sort of execute that in the 10th minute of injury time is sort of quite impressive. Especially the dummy from sovereignslide.
- [04:15]
John Bruin
Within that 11 minutes added on. Newcastle had for the first half of that looked the most likely. And then suddenly Liverpool recovered their Arn slot sense of calm and cool and passing the ball. I think it's fair to say that Newcastle were tired and entitled to be tired. And so yeah, they just moved away slowly, deliberately. And using that extra man. No. 1 marked the 16. Tilly 17 year old. The finish was fantastic. As Lucy said. It's one of those games where spirit overcomes. Well personnel and talent. You would say that Liverpool had a. A more stacked team and Newcastle wanted it more. It. You could see. I mean from the very first tackle that they were throwing themselves into it. And obviously one player in particular took this a little bit too far with that. It reminded me of like sort of WCW or WWF wrestling. The way that he sort of charged all the way around. It's like he ran all the way around the ring and then jumped in to do some sort of. You know. Special move on Virgil Van Dyke. Van Dyke's look at him was almost like what? Why? Why? What's of you? Why have you done that? You know. Because it was so ridiculous. The decision went to Var. The. The Newcastle fans obviously didn't like the decision. The referee Simon Hooper was neither side like the referee. We'll get on to. I'm sure his. His new job in a bit as a cameraman. It was a red card. I mean you cannot do that. It was. I. I don't think there's any dispute about that. And Newcastle. It's almost like they got too fired up. Then they found about the right. Just about the right amount of fire. Liverpool were a little bit. Were caught cold weren't they? By how new Newcastle came at them. Bruno scored that goal. And the way Newcastle fans celebrated a goal to go 21 down. I think Lucy's right. It that set the. The game even more on edge. Because it just felt like they were celebrating an equalizer already. It just. The whole momentum of the game was just. Was just spinning that way. It was just a fantastic spectacle. All time Premier Classic. Premier League classic. And it's so early in the season. We've already had one.
- [06:44]
Max Rushton
Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's the really interesting thing about how Newcastle. You know when Asula scores Johnny. And it's a massive moment for him. His first Premier League goal. And then he's running to get the ball to go. We can still win this lads. And you're like what do you do? You're 10 men like take the point. But Newcastle did have that ascendancy for almost all of that. I thought they were the better side with 11. Liverpool scored against them on a play and had a decent spell I guess. But then what did Newcastle do? Or why weren't Liverpool better? I suppose is my question.
- [07:12]
Johnny Liu
Well yeah. I mean this is the. The immense power and I guess the ultimate limitation of how Newcastle approach these certainly these big games. They will fight you. They will chase everything down. They are possessed by this almost godly energy. What it. What it means is that they will you. You know that you've got a game in every area of the pitch. They are incredible at robbing you of the ball or getting their challenges in. But I think what it also does mean is that they are liable to I think just lose their heads a little bit. Certainly you saw this in the first half an hour where they like Newcastle were totally dominant and just didn't have enough guile to convert all of that possession, all of that territory and all of that energy into the thing that they most needed which was a goal. And that's fine when you have someone like Isaac who's just brilliant at turning these quarter chances into half chances into. Into you know, proper opportunities. But they. They don't quite have that poise in the final third. You know Gordon well we saw his. His rush of blood Harvey Barnes that they are not quite there yet as a. As a. As a team that. That can almost modulate their emotional temperature. But it was. You know it was fantastic to see. I mean I guess the reason Liverpool weren't great is the reason Liverpool weren't great against Bournemouth. They look. Their pressing still isn't quite right. There are enough teams in this league who can. Who can play through that press who are comfortable enough dwelling on the ball in their own half and then picking their moments. And I don't think. I think Liverpool's rest defense is anything like it as good as it was last season. That's why they. You know they are liable to. To go through periods where they're pretty under the cosh because they simply. They simply can't control the game like they did last season.
- [08:55]
Lucy Ward
I saw somebody describe Newcastle as not having a particularly high ceiling in the group but have a high floor. And I think that is just exactly what Johnny's just said. Not quite yet. The. The players at the top really, really sort of elite high performing. But they certainly have that sort of character. But just. Just a little point about the. The red card. I think that is the sort of shithouse challenge that pros really don't like. And. And when. When Virgil Van Dyke turned to look at Gordon he knew that Gordon will be sent off. He sort of basically I bet he said to him Listen that's a red card. It's standing leg. Wait on the standing leg and someone comes in after you've kicked the ball is. Is a. Is a real. No. No real coward challenge. And I think that you know, obviously decision making, not the best. But I think Van Dyke knew that he would be sent off. And the more you watched it, and I follow a lot of different people on. On Twitter and obviously, you know, covering different clubs and I did see one Newcastle Journal basically said a contentious red card. I nearly replied and I thought, no, don't reply, don't do it. But yeah, there's absolutely zero argument about that.
- [10:08]
Max Rushton
I liken him to a sort of crazed dog. The way he sort of like he's yapping from like right back to keep. He's actually almost running. He almost does a home run, doesn't he? He does like three bases before he gets there. But yes, Baz did point out in the WhatsApp group that dogs are generally not as stupid as that. Apart from Dalmatians, he said that are all inbred. But I didn't know that about dalmatians. Apologies. Apologies to all the dalmatians out there if that is libelous against them. I think that is. I think it is really interesting, the change from Liverpool last year, John, in that they've invested. Obviously it takes time for new players to settle in. But Gravenberch wasn't there in the first game and everyone was saying, well, look, we put Gravenberch back in there. That covers the center backs. But even still, like the goals they conceded. I mean, Kirk is for the first goal is hilarious. Right? That's terrible defending. And the second goal, how they can concede that is unbelievable.
- [11:01]
John Bruin
Kirk has come back. Andy Robertson, all is forgiven. Thankfully he's in the squad and is still, you know, a very experienced campaigner and, and I think we'll see probably a bit more of him than we expected at Bournemouth.
- [11:14]
Max Rushton
There were.
- [11:14]
John Bruin
There were doubts over his defending. There's little doubt about his ability going forward. It can be worked on. Andy Robertson was not a dissimilar player when he. When he joined the club under young Klopp Wirtz.
- [11:25]
Max Rushton
Okay, interesting.
- [11:26]
John Bruin
Yeah, this guy is a. No one doubts his talent, but he's a player that in Germany is a player that dominates the game. And what we're seeing so far is that he, he is a player who can decorate a game, but he's not in the center of it. There was a point. A friend of mine pointed this out to me. After about 11 minutes he went over to take a corner and he looked tired because the pace of the Premier League compared to Bundesliga, it is. You ratchet it for much further up and he's having to run. He's having to press harder than he would do, than he. Than he would have done playing for, for Bayern Leverkusen as much as Xavi Alonso would have asked him to do that. And he's the player that is supposed to change the dimensions of Liverpool, but he hasn't done it for the positive just yet. Hugo E. Listen, we can't really complain about his impact on the team. He's scored in every game. You do wonder though if he himself presses in the same way of the players that he replaced. Liverpool are. Have had made this great change, brought in so many players and it will take time. But the message is out there. If you run and chase and Harry and get at Liverpool, you can get at them. And funny enough, that message was back there, was there in the Carabao Cup Final back in March. Yeah, and Arne Slot hasn't really found a way around that just yet.
- [12:57]
Max Rushton
I'm not going to make the mistake two pods in a row of saying, you know, a player doesn't have legs after claiming that West Ham midfield didn't have legs. Although I think maybe they don't have legs. But that's interesting Johnny, about Florian Wirtz in that, you know, obviously it takes time and you can't judge a player after two games and we know his ability. But those are those things to learn, like learning perhaps having a tiny bit less time on the ball or having to run more, those sort of physical fine margins. Some players don't necessarily, you know, some players can't do that. And so that will be interesting to see if he can sort of learn to run quicker, run more, etc. As well as do what he does so well, but just with a tiny bit less time.
- [13:39]
Johnny Liu
Yeah, I mean it, it is interesting if you look at the players that, that come from, like the elite players that come from the Bundesliga to the Premier League, there is, there is a period of adaptation because the, the certainly for players who, whose game is based on movement, you know, Timo Verna, Kai Havas are, you know, guys like De Bruyne and Harland, they. They adapted I think a lot quicker because they weren't in that they weren't playing in the. Obviously Harland didn't have to run very much and De Bruyne's game I think was, was a lot more prem. You know, a lot better suited to the Premier League originally. VI is, is a brilliant creator. I think that, you know, the issue for, for anyone arriving on that sort of fee is like, okay, where are your goals? Where are your sits? Are you. Are you grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck. You know Gerard style.
- [14:23]
Max Rushton
This was.
- [14:23]
Johnny Liu
This was the issue that that Pogba had when he came for that fee. People wanted to see immediate miracles and you know he. He wasn't really that that sort of player. He. He was a. He was a A keep ticking things over in midfield sort of player. And Wirtz is. Is the same in. In the in. He's not a guy who's going to get you 20 goals a season. He's not going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck.
- [14:44]
Lucy Ward
He.
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Johnny Liu
He. You know like John says he does decorate a game. The other. The other issue is he is. He is elite presser. That's one of the. That's one of the reasons that Liverpool identified him as you know he. He's got incredible reading of the game off the ball. He's incredible at robbing the ball in the final third and coughing up those big chances and obviously that's not going to come yet. He's. He's not. He's still learning the the pressing triggers and and the way they move as a team and and and creatively he's still going to you know he's lear runs he needs to be looking for and that's going to take 10, 15 games. It might take half a season. And the the key is going to be can he keep enough people on side that he. He gets that half a season. You know can he. Can he keep ticking over with. With goals and it says can he produce enough moments that are going to make people think yeah this guy's worth worth investing in.
- [15:30]
Lucy Ward
Remember as well Max that Liverpool have played Bournemouth and Newcastle probably the highest physicality of. Of opponents in terms of of of pressing as well. I mean Newcastle I mean there was a high level of physicality last night full stop but more so Newcastle and you know Bournemouth and I know there's lot lost players. I remember doing Bournemouth Newcastle against Bournemouth last last season St. James's Park. I have never seen a performance like it from Bournemouth. And that is just. There's not often a team will out physical Newcastle. So I think that you got to take that into account. You know sort of for ver that perhaps there were a baptism of fire those first two games of the season on Newcastle.
- [16:09]
Max Rushton
John. I mean it is. We're obviously just waiting for the window to close right and either Isaac then has to send a sort of apology going oh I didn't mean any of this. I don't know what you're talking about and he scores a goal, everyone's happy or they, or they let him go for not 150 million but 110. They're trying to get Strand Larson who I think is a good center forward. I mean I don't think he's Alexander Isaac but very hard to find another one of those. But what do you think they should do? Because it's an interesting situation. I'd be minded to keep him because then he will. It's a World cup year. Sweden presumably. I mean. Yeah, you know, like they'll be in the World Cup. They could do. They've got a great set of players. He has to play.
- [16:46]
John Bruin
Right, let's start with Strand Larsen. Strand Larsen's more your Duncan Ferguson than your Alan Shearer, isn't he? As a player he's a pretty canny forward and I think he's improved a lot. For what wolves. But that's a pretty underwhelming replacement for a player like Alexander Isaac. You'd have to say. I'm not sure that's going to calm the waters amongst fangs. Yeah, I mean my memory of this type of rash month that may well happen is that picture of Wayne Rooney and Alex Ferguson when they'd had that big row and, and Rooney signs a new contract and there's his photo at the training ground. Ferguson shit eating grin on face. Rooney look of oh God like you know, I've been totally done here and yeah, I've been outmaneuvered and this is sort of wan smile. And that I suspect is, is what may await Alexander Isaac. There's all types of maneuvers going on and there will be more of them. There'll be twists before we get there. But as we've said from the very start, Liverpool cough up the money. And a Newcastle statement pretty much suggested this. You know, the conditions are met. The conditions are if the money is met, that's, that's the deal. Right. If they, they offer 150 million, the deal will be done tomorrow. They aren't going to offer that just yet but they might end up doing so. But you've got this situation where. And actually if. Let's count the cost of last night's performance. Joe Linton. That looks a nasty thigh injury or groin injury.
- [18:19]
Max Rushton
Tonali as well. Fabian Chair.
- [18:21]
John Bruin
Yeah, Tonali shoulder. Yeah, that didn't look good. That looked a bit like Martin Odegaard's injury at the weekend. You know one of those where they try and soldier on and eventually he's just got an arm hanging limply. That didn't look Good. It's a thin squad. It's a. It's a good first 11. Especially with Isaac in the team. And they need to start Newcastle need to get the skates on and bring in players. And it's funny. You know the. The pattern of the summer is repeated by. They make a move for Strand Larson. It's turned down. Which is what happens in Newcastle all summer.
- [18:54]
Max Rushton
Yeah.
- [18:55]
John Bruin
And you know you've got Ewan Whisser, you know who's been in exile longer than the gay traitor. You know it's. It's. It's taken a long time. It's just not happening for them. And time is running out. And Newcastle and Eddie Howe have shown what lies within that squad in that performance. I thought they were absolutely fantastic. But the fans will want players to come in and further that team. They've got to play Champions League football with that list of walking rooting wounded already. It's incredible.
- [19:26]
Max Rushton
Let's talk about Ref cam. Mike said it's like Simon Hooper's own uncut gems which I enjoyed. Matt said it's like when cat boars upload footage of their cat cam of Tiddles running around the neighborhood. The rev cam for the Graven Birch goal is quite good. But I mean it's just. There's a reason why you have steady cams. You know. It's a reason why they create those cams that are so balanced because it's just loses exhausting honestly.
- [19:52]
Lucy Ward
Yeah. You only appreciate Steadicam and what the. The cameramen have to. To. To hold. Maybe the ref could have one of those on. He could batter a few while he's at it as well with the. That big contraption on. Yeah. Made you feel a little bit sick. But it's quite good. I quite. I quite liked the. I think we've seen something as well where a player had it on and just seen how fast everything is and for a referee how the players sort of get in your face even though they're not supposed to. I quite liked that little touch and of seeing that and also when they have to talk out. I think it was in the Women's World cup when the referees first had to do that where you heard the voice and it's difficult when you. If you're not English speaking. But obviously our rest don't have that excuse. But you got to rely on technology. But yeah I quite. I quite like that.
- [20:36]
Max Rushton
See Simon Hooper's Lucy. The first that you know isn't northern. He's not as northern as the others. Maybe he is but like he's the first one.
- [20:43]
John Bruin
He's from Wiltshire.
- [20:44]
Max Rushton
I think he's from Wiltshire. Yeah, exactly.
- [20:46]
Johnny Liu
But Swindon.
- [20:47]
Max Rushton
He's from Swindon. Yeah. So not allowed. It's a Southern or a West country ref. I'm not having that. I want them all to be like, ah, well, that was a free, free kick up there, lad.
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John Bruin
I was going to say the ref cam reminded me of two things. One was the 1980s 1990s TV program Nightmare.
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Max Rushton
Yes. Oh yeah, yeah. Walk forward, walk forward.
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John Bruin
Just the sort of. And also again, back to the 90s. I've not really played computer games since then like Doom and Wolfenstein.
- [21:16]
Max Rushton
That sort of eye of the beholder.
- [21:17]
John Bruin
Yeah.
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Max Rushton
Front facing and that's what the ref has to go. I could, I can pick up a gold bar or a scroll and Howard Webb's going pick up the scroll.
- [21:27]
John Bruin
Wave, wave. Yellow card at Bruno Gumarez.
- [21:31]
Max Rushton
But that makes the players look like they're in a computer game. I don't know what you thought of it, Johnny.
- [21:35]
Johnny Liu
It was missing a few, a few elements. I thought, you know, you'd expect the whole game to be. To be viewed through like the red tinted filter. Obviously that's one feature.
- [21:46]
John Bruin
Yeah.
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Johnny Liu
You know, the weird blind spot, the inability to see various incidents in the. And the other thing is if you are going down this route of like, you know, first person reality, don't turn it off. Know, take it, leave it on. When he, when he goes back to the showers, when he goes back to. Gets back in his, in his car, drives back down to, you know, Simon.
- [22:05]
Max Rushton
Hooper eating a ready meal, eating a Charlie Bigham when he gets, he drives.
- [22:09]
John Bruin
To collect his bung from the Red Cartel, you know, you know, collecting the.
- [22:14]
Johnny Liu
The excrement from his mailbox.
- [22:15]
Max Rushton
Yeah. I like the idea of yes. Not being able. Joelinton's got the cloak of invisibility on. You just can't see him. It's not a yellow card for him. Anyway, it was a brilliant game. So look, thank you to everyone who played in it for making it brilliant. And that'll do for part one. Part two we'll talk about Max Darman and yeah, the, the ethics of a 15 year old playing in the Premier League.
- [22:41]
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- [23:24]
Max Rushton
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Thursday the 11th of September we are playing the Troxy in London. Jonathan Wilson, Nicky Bandini, Johnny Liu, you'll be there. I met you at the bus stop John, I think I've hoodwinked you into coming along to for an exciting cameo. Oh yeah, yeah, there's a good outfit for you. Tickets can be purchased@theguardian.com FootballWeeklyLive still a few tickets left live streaming around the world so all of you please come. You can watch it on Catch up for a week or something like that. And the link is posted on the pod description. It'll be all over our Instagram, our Bluesky and our TikTok, which I hear is doing great things. Lucy, you wanted to talk about Max down and Stuart said should a 15 year old really be playing senior men's football especially in a pressurized environment such as the Premier League? And it is so easy Lucy, to be like wow, this guy's 15, look how good he is. And those are all legitimate feelings, aren't they? Look, this guy is so exciting. But there is another side to this argument.
- [24:18]
Lucy Ward
I guess it's the best thing but obviously and also the worst thing for a lot of the staff at teams and at clubs where you know 15 or an under 18 year old because basically safeguarding wise he's still a child until he's 18 and I know he might look behave play like an adult. Football is now in terms of sport the a leader in safeguarding issues after the, the issues in the past, they're now very, very good in terms of checks etc. And one thing that they have to do is safeguard young players in an adult environment. So it's all about parental consent. So Max Down's parents will have to consent that he can travel. So he will get changed in his own changing room. He will have a chaperone. He will, he will not be left alone with just senior players. He will, the people that chaperone him will have DBS checks, disclosure and bar in service checks that you know, you, if you're working with children in a sporting environment that that's the criminal record check that you have to have. And I would suspect a chaperone will travel to away games specifically with him to look after, to look after him. Risk assessments for every trip, safeguarding briefings given to senior staff. So you can imagine I'm going on but you can imagine what senior staff feel like. They're just saying like Mikel Arteta would be like well he's one of my players. I just, just want him to, just want him to there in training to play. But there's so much more that goes on and it's someone's job to ensure that this child is, is, is safeguarded. And I know it sounds. And it's difficult isn't it because the young player just wants to be, to fit in. The last thing you want to do as a young player in an, in a, in a, in a changing room of, of first first team pros is to stand out. You want to just fit in and a lot of them will change their behavior to fit in but you. That's just not possible. And that's even before I get into his education. So he's going into year 11 now so he will have an Arsenal are very, very good as a lot of of clubs is that he will I would suspect be on a full time training program. Which means that he may go, I don't know for, for a fact because they probably don't release it but he may go to the partner school of Arsenal where his timetable is changed so that it. He can go into training. But that's.
- [26:39]
Max Rushton
You got double game, double games Monday morning. I'm missing physics.
- [26:43]
Lucy Ward
Yeah, but he will. But now he's in the first team. That first team training changes quite a lot very very quickly as well. You know, it might be oh we need him in, we need him in. But the school's like, and the, the academy staff education stuff like hang on a minute, he's, he needs to be in school because he's doing his GCSEs et cetera. So that has to all be incorporated. And it's very, very difficult having been there myself as academy staff to just make sure that he just is not forgotten about. But oh, he's not here, he's not in his education session. And so this is because he's under 16 now when he comes in as a scholar by the law, he still has to do two years of education when he comes in at 16. So this is next season he still has to do an education program. And what that will be is it's called the sep. It's a sporting excellence professional, it's an apprenticeship, it's being an electrician or a plumber. You are assessed around your ability as a footballer and, and the, the lifestyle and you know, psychological skills around. That Jew Bellingham did it. I think he got his apprenticeship and it, and it's quite, you know, it's, it's like any other apprenticeship. It's. It's not easy and you have a endpoint assessment. So there's all sorts going on. Plus this kid, all he wants to do is be a footballer and the parents need to not get carried away because all they want him to be a footballer. He's not signed a pro yet. This is, this, you know, it's, it is a very complex.
- [28:03]
Max Rushton
And actually, Jonny, there's something interesting about. I looked at the 20 youngest, you know, players to make a Premier League debut. Like, there's no guarantees for this guy, right? So it must be really hard to kind of balance where you put, look, the world's at your feet. You could be great go out there. But also somebody somewhere saying, like, carry, like, don't. You've not made it yet because he's 15 and he's played one game.
- [28:27]
Johnny Liu
You know, the aggravating factor here, I guess, is that it's Arsenal and, and he is that good. You know, if you look at that list, you know, James Vaughan could probably walk down the street unharassed, you know, say, with Ben Woodburn or whatever, but this guy, he has burst on the scene in such a. A spectacular fashion. And it is Arsenal. It is one of the biggest clubs in the world. And the fact is he will be. He will be famous overnight. And I think that that is the part of. Of celebrity that I don't think anyone can truly prepare you for. You know, you can, you can, you can sit them down and give them training and give them coaching and try and try and tell them what it's going to be like. But it is, it is frankly, pretty quite disorienting to be able, you know, to be walking down the street and, and basically have that part of you that, that anonymity stripped away almost overnight. That's. And, and that's the part that, that he's not going to be prepared for. And, and the fact that Arsenal are also, as well as. As a football club, they're a commercial business. This guy is going to be fantastic for the numbers. How much content are they going to be getting out of this guy or what sort of commitments they're going to be making him do in the future in terms of media? I think there's a slight tension there because obviously you're looking after him, you want to safeguard him, you want him to be focused and do his best on the pitch. But Arsenal is also a commercial organization that is trying to garner new fans and subscribers and likes and all of that stuff. Endowment is incredibly potent asset from that point of view and I think balancing or harnessing those two obviously quite countervailing forces that I think is the tension that I think is going to determine how a lot of young players in the future develop.
- [30:14]
Max Rushton
Yeah. And given your experience at Leeds Lucy, who wins? I don't know if that's the right question but like how many people there have a long term caring thought for a player because obviously it's so. Football is so short term is right. We're as guilty of ever. You know, we've just half written off Florian verts 10 minutes ago. But you know, look, I don't think we did. But you take my point like it's so immediate. You want this now how many people are at a club going like you're 15 and actually we're trying to develop a good happy humor until they're 80, you know, no one's thinking that, are they?
- [30:46]
Lucy Ward
You sort of get the buy in from first team staff but like you said, their priorities are completely different. You know, for, for Mikel Arteta it's about, about winning. So he will let others deal with, you know, the, the, the practicalities of Diamond. But the academy staff, you know, like Johnny's just said, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be player. Hopefully he is, he plays till he's 35 and he has a successful career, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what's going to happen. So it's very, very difficult. They need to have tunnel vision young footballers to make it. But you also need to understand that all the other things around it, the education, you know, the life skills of play, the, the player care stuff is shows what a learner you are. So if a players, I used to say to players, I know exactly how you play just from how you behave in my classroom when I used to, when I used to teach them before I was head of education. And because you cannot change your characteristics, you know, if you're a little bit lazy or you let others do stuff, then that's what you would be like on a pitch. But there are academy staff who will constantly worry and make sure that they're aware of how many hours is about whether he's getting changed on his own, whether, you know, the hotel room. If there's another young under 18s in the squad, he'll probably room with the other under 18 that's that, that's how it works just to you know because obviously you got to make him feel comfortable as well. Yeah and it's then I think what it then shows you is I mean Arsenal is an excellent academy. How he has been brought through the system and how the parents work with and it's, it's a team effort. How the parents work with the schools that work with the kid and it's all, it all ends with this flourish hopefully into the first team. And so you have got a system that's working magically. There's just some people where it means a little bit more to make sure it's done in a correct way.
- [32:39]
John Bruin
Players coming through young, they have a lot to negotiate. I mean one of the players at least you may know, I mean Archie Gray, I mean he was one of those players and he. When Leeds got promoted from the championship a couple of seasons ago he was having to change away from his teammates. He came into the Premier League last season and with something approaching an instant hit but now is having to sit on the bench and watch the new Tottenham take place. Because when you're a young player there's oscillations aren't there? You don't become you know, an instant hit. Not everyone is. Wayne Rooney who I see at 16 years 297 days old is only the 20th youngest. So it's almost like they waited for Wayne and it's not like with Wayne, Wayne Rooney, you know it isn't going to be like. I mean the famous quote from Rooney is, you know when he joins the Everton first team and he starts playing with them, he said he turns around and he just goes these are shite. Because he realizes that he's much better than every one of those players. That isn't going to be the case for anyone, even someone as talented as, as Max Dalman. And it's, it is. And you actually look at that list of the top 20 it's somewhat ill fated for quite a lot of them. You know you've got at Arsenal Jack Wilshire. I mean the lead time for Jack Wilshire which you know 15 years ago or so and when he arrived, he almost arrived fully formed. But we'd heard about him a long time and he was a great player for a few years and it didn't happen. An injury set in and you wonder if managers overplayed him. And you've got to be so careful with young talent. I mean let's not say this is going to happen but Saka limping off with Another muscle injury. You start to wonder how it's such a delicate balance for, for clubs when, when they've got these players and Liverpool, young Rio that scored that goal. I mean Arne Slot has this temptation to play this guy because he can do that to win matches. But you've got a player's long term development to think of. And Wayne Rooney we think of as a player who burned brightly and almost burned out but he lasted a lot longer. I mean James Milner was. Is probably like 25th on the list or something. James Milner is almost unique from playing from 16 through to. He's nearly 40 now.
- [35:03]
Lucy Ward
Yeah, James Milner actually was one of. I'm sure I've said this and bored everybody was one of my lads when he first, when he first. So he was in school with me and then was in the first team straight away. But think about him and this is, this is my point I'm going to make about Diamond. It's the reaction now is when he goes back and plays in the 21s right. So how, how does he cope with, with in and out of the first team? Because his peers will be like wow, you know he's you know and, and the, the lads who are under 18, the lads who are under 19, 20, 21 will be like jealous because he's just you know, gone on the top of them and played. So it's a very, very competitive environment. Very. Everything's competitive. What they wear the trainers, they've got the girlfriend. Everything's competitive. So it's how he then co going back. So you're not going to stay in the first team now that is not going to happen. You know for reasons John said that you know the sort of physical aspects and the fact that you've got sort of tens of millions of players, pounds of players in front of you. So it's how the player then reacts to going back down as they would describe it. And James Milner was one of the most perfect ones of that in terms of his attitude. It was the best attitude I've ever seen apart from probably Lewis Cook. Those two the best attitudes I've ever seen in a player in terms of you know, being an adult before the time.
- [36:21]
John Bruin
Is Ethan Wanyeri now the elder states. Is he like some, you know, looking. Yeah, just look at you look like Abraham Lincoln.
- [36:32]
Johnny Liu
He's hanging on to his career if anything.
- [36:34]
John Bruin
Louis Skelly, this positive veteran. Yes.
- [36:37]
Max Rushton
The only thing I was gonna say and you will laugh at this because obviously the, the level is so ridiculously Tiny. But I do think about the fact that, you know, I got soccer aim out of nowhere and obviously no one had a clue who I was. And when I got it, virtually still nobody knew. But, like, occasionally people would yell, you'll never be loved. Or you mug out of a van. But I was, I think I'm so lucky that I never got any level. You know, my Z list, lowercase Z list, level of fame was when I was 28, 29, you know, like, I was sort of already. I had my friends and I had my life and I knew all that stuff. I think Even if at 15, it must be unbelievable, even at like early 20s from all footballers, it must be incredible, incredibly difficult. And so. And obviously that you're talking, you know, I understand before anyone yells exponential levels of, you know, you know, I can leave my house, it's okay.
- [37:21]
John Bruin
The two Maxs, Dalman and Rushton, that's what they're all saying out on the street, isn't it? Yeah, you're right though, Max.
- [37:28]
Lucy Ward
You are right.
- [37:29]
Max Rushton
Anyway, before we end part two, some very sad news. Chesterfield co owner Phil Kirk has died at the age of 59. The club announced in March he'd been diagnosed with cancer. He'd recently entered palliative care. In a statement, the club said they were confirming news with great sadness. Their thoughts are with Phil's family and friends. I spoke to Alan Biggs, who's a Chesterfield fan, yesterday, does Sheffield Wednesday for Talk Sport, amongst others. The message he said, was, you know, Phil Kirk was not only just a great guy, was a brilliant owner of a football club and we spent so much time talking about owners that aren't brilliant and he was brilliant and it's incredibly sad news. And also yesterday, Jerry Harrison, commentator on ITV in the 80s and the 90s. He did so much Anglia sport, like so much Norwich. Like, I heard him all the time and he did John, have a really. He had a. He had such a distinctive voice and, you know, I loved him as a commentator.
- [38:21]
John Bruin
Yeah, he's one of those voices that I think from 86, World cup or 82, he's one of those voices that crops up and he's not that familiar to those of us in the northwest that we. We had Martin Tyler actually back in those days. But on Phil Cook, I did a piece on Chesterfield 18 months ago or so when they're in the FA cup and the fans spoke about him very warmly. A guy at the F for the Financial Times called the new King of the North Sea because of his business interest lay in Oil, which I thought was a. Which is a very nice title to have, I would have thought. Which showed a wealthy man who put it back into the club that he loved. And those are the sort of owners that we approve of. Is that right? I mean.
- [39:05]
Max Rushton
Yeah, well, we're desperate for every club to have that, aren't you really? So incredibly sad news. We'll be back in a minute.
- [39:15]
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- [39:58]
Max Rushton
Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So we thought, look, we've got a bit of time. We have Leeds, Man United and Spurs fans on this pod. We start with Leeds, I think. I mean obviously the 5 nil at Arsenal. Everyone just said look, don't worry about it. Is that the way you, you take a performance like that? Because you were brilliant as Everton. Elland Road would be so key. Like do you come. Three points is great from two games, right.
- [40:16]
Lucy Ward
I think that, you know, the performance against Everton was good but I think Everton were really, really poor. I think they were sort of chalking cheese this week at home Hill Dickinson Stadium. But yeah, Leeds were happy. Three points is so important as early as possible when you're, when you're a promoted side. And I think there was probably no real positive thoughts going down to Arsenal that, that you know, that a point to be gained or three points. But my only worry and I think that, that obviously I collect all my leads information from my dog walk and with the people that, that we meet, I think the worry is that they've. They. I think they've been quite sensible in the transfer market in that they have bought physical and big players. Because you look at Tanaka who was fantastic in the championship and he looked lightweight against Arsenal. You know, it looked like Jekyll Rice looked like a dad playing with football with his kids. You know, he just was that sort of dominant overgrewer.
- [41:17]
Max Rushton
Which is interesting because in, in your mind the championship is.
- [41:20]
Lucy Ward
Yeah.
- [41:20]
Max Rushton
Perhaps more physical.
- [41:22]
Lucy Ward
I mean, you know, and again you're playing against Arsenal who are. You know, most of them are man mountains. And I, I think that was a lesson. But all the players with physicality were on the bench. So the new side so Longstaff was on the bench. Metro was on the bench. There was a center half be all. I think. I think if you're going to buy these players then that sort of physicality needs to be on the pitch against a team like Arsenal because you know at times they would. You know Gruev and Tanaka were swatted off the ball by Arsenal. But I think you've just the difference. You're so used to winning in the Championship. It's how quickly everybody gets used to losing and then responding to a loss. And that is so crucial in the Premier League. You get. Get battered five. But you've got to come back the next week and you've got to. You. You've got to forget that and start again. And now next week for Leeds is Newcastle. Now new Leeds fans will have been watching last night going brilliant. Anthony Gordon injured to Joel Inton. You know these players that. That very. That very much affect the way that Newcastle play. So it's. It's about that it's about. And I know it's. It's a. It's something that you say each game at a time but it's just forgetting what's. And even if you win right you've still got to then go and perform the week after or midweek and they play in Sheffield Wednesday I think tonight. So there'll be much changed. But I. How you get used to losing more than you win and how you perform in the Premier League.
- [42:48]
Max Rushton
John. Manchester United. Are there any. Are there Green shoots.
- [42:52]
John Bruin
Well, I was at the Fulham game for the Guardian on Sunday. Green shoots for the first 20 minutes and then 70 minutes of constipated turgid. You can insert your own descriptions here. It just felt like last season. I mean it just you know, where are the green shoots? I mean, you know maybe in a play like Dogu you're seeing a bit more maturity, a bit more you know he's a bit more used to the league miss amount. John Mount's playing a little bit better. Yeah, I agree with that. That Lucy makes a mount a player who listens to what his manager says, follows instructions to the letter, obviously has it has a bit of skill. And I think playing that sort of withdrawn number nine roles is fairly thankless. And Buemo did not have a good time against the wardrobe. Calvin Basse who is like lightning quick as well by the way. Sesko came on. So I was really interested to see Sesko and Sesko came on and within two seconds, Joachim Anderson is almost straight through him, like, welcome to the Premier League, mate. And I think there was one point where Cisco showed a good touch for a big man. There was a lovely little touchdown around the side. I was sat with Barney. We're like, oh, hello. You know, he's got that. But that was it. He was just completely climbed all over by Fulham. Kunya showed he is again, he's a decorating player. He's not a dominant player. And it's. It's Amarim, you know, who's got to front all this. He already has a slightly panicked defensive tone to himself. I think the decision to give him the job in November is probably fatal for his Manchester United's legacy because if they'd have waited and put in another caretaker and written off the season, then we might have had, you know, new shoots, new beginnings. There's a certain staleness, a sterility and oh, God, I'm talking about how Manchester.
- [45:02]
Max Rushton
United are absolutely shy again. No, no, it's comforting. It's comforting.
- [45:07]
Lucy Ward
I'm doing. I'm doing them tomorrow night at Grooms before itv. So looking forward to a trip to Grooms. About just, just a little note, just a couple of. Oh, one major tactical thing that I've noticed this season is, and Liverpool did it last night is the why players are closing down center backs. And I know this is a little bit geeky, but that a few teams have done it already. So they're basically saying, we don't want you through center. So Salah's coming in and closing down. Man United did it as well. Making sure that they close the center backs and just allowing the width, allowing the attacking teams to have the width, but not through the center. And it's weird how it's like. And also long throws as well. It's like they've all had a conference in summer and go, right, should we try? Yeah, let's all try it. Let's, let's. Let's have a little bit of a go with long throws and let's have a little bit go with changing the way our wide players press.
- [45:55]
John Bruin
Yeah, I meant to say, Lucy, that Craven Cottage, by the end of it was just a series of set pieces and long throws, corners. And it's. We're in the NFL now. That's. That's what it felt like. It's a series of set routines.
- [46:13]
Max Rushton
Johnny spurs, we know how much you were an acolyte for Ans Prostecogli, but you have to, you know, move with Times Thomas Frank is in. How are you feeling?
- [46:25]
Johnny Liu
He started very well, isn't he? I think, you know, not, not just in terms of, of what he said and, and, and how he's conducted himself and how he's carried himself. But the, the results on the pitch have been. They're clearly responding to him. You know, they've clearly had a decent preseason. The parts are all working together and you know, there has obviously been a lot of discourse about the lack of transfer business about, you know, the essay saga. And I do think they, they still lack a lot of creativity in the middle. That, that is their Achilles heel at the moment. They have a lot of honest runners in the middle of the pitch. Guys like Benton Corps and Sar, who were brilliant against Manchester City and, and Palinia, I think, you know, you would put in that category, but not players who can unlock a defense. That's what they're going to need against I guess the, the, the bottom half teams that they, they're going to need to beat later, later in the campaign. Against City, yeah, they were fantastic. I think one of the, the legacies of the postecoglou era is that they don't fear these kind of games anymore. That they go to City and they go to Liverpool and United and they might get a beating but they actually, they don't feel inferior. They have a go. I think that, that is a big, that is a big shift and you know, we've seen I think quite, quite a lot of promise. I don't think spurs are quite good enough to challenge for top five on what we've seen so far without a couple of signings. I think that losing Madison in the summer has been a big loss for them because he's one of the players who can unlock a defense. Kulasevsky, obviously he's struggling with injury. So they do, I think they do still need that player. I'm not really, you know, I'm not that excited by Savino, I don't think. I think the last thing spurs needs is another winger who can't score. You know, they're full of. They've got guys like Oderberg and Matisse tell. And I like Brendan Johnson, but I.
- [48:23]
Max Rushton
I don't, I mean he does score. Brendan Johnson, he does score.
- [48:25]
Johnny Liu
I like him. Well, he does score, but what Brendan Johnson does is he pops up at the back post after a long busting run to, to, to score a tap in. And I know that there's, I know that there's a skill to that, to being in the right place and having the, the engine and, and the awareness to do that. But I, I, I wouldn't, I don't put that in the ca, I put that in the category of a system goal rather than a Brennan Johnson goal. Okay, I, I, I still don't again I, I think in, in more static games and most of the Premier League campaign is is I more static games against team. I think I, I go to sit back a little bit more. I, I still don't think he has the, the craft to unlock those games on transfers.
- [49:05]
Max Rushton
Everton have confirmed Tyler Dibling who Spurs were rumored to and is that kind of he's an unlocker, isn't he? 35 million plus 5 in add ons so that's quite a fun. They pay and die Grealish dibbling behind Barry.
- [49:16]
John Bruin
That's, that's going to be really exciting isn't it? But so you play them behind Barry Tierno.
- [49:22]
Johnny Liu
Barry Teono Barry we should make clear.
- [49:24]
John Bruin
Yeah exciting but haven't Everton done this before when they signed three number tens one summer?
- [49:31]
Johnny Liu
Sigurdson Rooney.
- [49:33]
John Bruin
Rooney Daddy.
- [49:34]
Johnny Liu
Classen.
- [49:35]
John Bruin
David Classen. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Check out Debbie Classen's hair these days. I was saying that they've done this before. Are Everton just, just doing old Everton now? Is that, is that what you know? But yeah, I mean that is exciting Dibbling I saw was that rare spark in Southampton last season. He's one of those players that is directing his running goes straight into the heart of defences. I think there's a bit of game intelligence there as well.
- [50:02]
Lucy Ward
Can you imagine Jon as well how buzzing it'll be to train with Jack Grealish every day as a young player?
- [50:07]
John Bruin
Yes, yes.
- [50:08]
Lucy Ward
That'll have had a massive effect on him I would suspect going to Everton.
- [50:13]
John Bruin
Do you know what? There is a lot of the young Jack Grealish about him, isn't there? Because he's a physical specimen as well like Jack was and Everton exciting, happy, cheery.
- [50:22]
Max Rushton
Yeah. It'll never last. I'm just. Yeah, yeah. Come on now yesterday we were talking about well semi hero got in touch saying James Trafford being described as not the biggest for a goalkeeper is the pod setting the bar high pressure on microscopic six five Donnarumma. If they sign him because James Trafford is six foot six. This blew my, this blew my mind that James Trafford is taller than Gianluigi Donnarumma. I just won't have it even if they stood next to each other, you know I mean Sam Dunning did say he was a late developer. I don't know if he was Six foot yesterday and now he's six foot six. But I can't believe he's six foot six.
- [50:59]
John Bruin
Yeah, he's wiry for a six. Can you be wiry in six foot six? I don't know.
- [51:03]
Max Rushton
It sort of blow over in a gale because he looks tiny, you know. Anyway, anyway, we'll see what happens with Donnarumma and City. Apparently Chelsea have agreed a deal to loan Nicholas Jackson to Bayern Munich. Where's Aaron Ramsey playing? Barry, this might be the most. Where is he now? Barry? Piece of news. Any of you know who Aaron Ramsey is playing for?
- [51:23]
Lucy Ward
Nope.
- [51:24]
Max Rushton
He is playing for Pumas in the Liga MX in Mexico.
- [51:29]
John Bruin
Oh.
- [51:29]
Max Rushton
Been there two months and he made his debut yesterday.
- [51:31]
John Bruin
That's not Ed Mallion's team, is it?
- [51:33]
Max Rushton
Is that Ed Mallion's? I don't know. I don't know. Tell the listeners who that is.
- [51:40]
John Bruin
Ed Allian, former journalist, former colleague of Jonathan's, actually is now the owner of or co owner of a Liga MX club, Puertaro fc.
- [51:51]
Max Rushton
He is the owner of, apparently. Good work, producer Joel Jim says. Do you think Gateshead fans decided to start their 350 mile return trip at half time? Yeah, Gateshead were 3 nil down at Yeovil at half time. You would think. Shall we? And then they scored four in the second half, including one of the 98th minute Moonlight Hanger says with Torquay now starting their home games with a toddler driving a miniature car onto the pitch to deliver the match ball. When will IFAB act to ensure this is mandatory for all future matches at every stadium? A closer look is he might be about 8 or 9. I think getting a 2 year old, that is a risk. Could go anywhere. Certainly unlikely to go to the centre circle. Anyway, that'll do for today. Thanks everybody. Thank you, Johnny. Thanks. Thanks, Lucy.
- [52:32]
Lucy Ward
Thank you.
- [52:33]
Max Rushton
Thank you, John.
- [52:33]
John Bruin
Cheers, Max.
- [52:34]
Max Rushton
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is. Danielle Stevens will be back on Thursday.
- [52:44]
John Bruin
This is the Guardian.