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Football Weekly
Ruben Amorim axed: what now for Manchester United? Football Weekly
00:44:17
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Jamie Jackson, John Brewin and Nooruddean Choudry as Ruben Amorim is sacked as Manchester United head coach
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- [00:00]
Barry Glendenning
This is the Guardian.
- [00:11]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [00:51]
Max Rushden
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Ruben Amarim sacked by Manchester United about five minutes after we'd all said goodbye. After recording yesterday, a message from Nick Kanes landed in the WhatsApp group. Amarim exclamation mark. Which as producer Joel says, looks like the title of a musical. And what a musical it would be. They definitely play 3, 4, 3. As is football Weekly tradition. They waited until we'd finished. Turns out his post match presser after the Leeds game was a 10 on the Maresca scale. How do we view his tenure? Not well. So many. Is this the turning point? So many. Have they turned a corner? And the following game? No. Was there anything good about it? And how much was his intransigence? The quality or the application of the players? Or Jason Wilcox and above. And what happens next? DNA's Darren Fletcher's at the wheel. OE Glassner is the favourite. It does make sense. An elite Manchester United panel for you. Your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning. Welcome.
- [01:46]
John Brewin
Hi, Max.
- [01:47]
Max Rushden
Nuradeen Chowdhury.
- [01:48]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Welcome. Hello.
- [01:49]
Max Rushden
The Guardian's Manchester football correspondent, Jamie Jackson. All right, Jamie.
- [01:53]
Jamie Jackson
Greetings.
- [01:54]
Max Rushden
And from Morocco, just to get as far away as he possibly could from Old Trafford, John Bruin here. Hey, John.
- [02:01]
Barry Glendenning
Hi, Max. Hi, team.
- [02:03]
Max Rushden
So Reuben Amram has departed at his role as head coach of Manchester United, not manager. He was appointed in November 2024. God, it feels like years before that, doesn't it? With Manchester United sitting sixth in the Premier League, the club said the club's leadership has reluctantly made the decision that it is the right time to make a change. This will give the team the best opportunity of the highest possible Premier League finish. The club would like to thank Ruben for his contribution to the club and wishes him well for the future. Darren Fletcher will take charge of the team against burnley on Wednesday. Am coaching team have also left. He won 25 of his 63 games in charge. His 14 month stint is the shortest of a permanent manager since David Moyes was sacked after eight months in 2014. According to Opta, he had the worst win ratio 32%, the worst goals conceded per game ratio 1.53 and the lowest clean sheet ratio 15%. Some accolades for him to take with him of the Premier League era, that is. Look Jamie, you're on the beat. Why is this, why does this happen now?
- [03:02]
Jamie Jackson
Uh, well, I think he's just got a bit cheesed off. Well, both sides have really. But I mean it all sort of kind of climaxed on Friday. He wasn't happy anyway because this Semenya money one Semenya, you know, looked like he's going to Manchester City was not available for another sort of major signing as he sort of thought it would be. Logically you can sort of see the thinking but them not, not them saying no, you're not going to have that money is part of sort of reservations that they've had for, for a little while know two or three times this season I've been told, well he needs to start winning, you know, from people who, who sort of got bit of power there, etc. Etc. Mayu is an interesting example of this. They didn't want to sell Mayu because they thought Mayu might outlast Amorin which has now been proved. And obviously Main is a really good player. He's 20 years old. Kind of the future of United. Actually when he said on Christmas Eve to us all Kobby Mayu quote is the future of Manchester United, my ears pricked up. I was thinking why is he saying that? Because he never picks the guy, you know, he's not, he's not started in the Premier League and all the rest of it. And I think that was because he basically been told who was aware of the thinking. So Wilcox. Yeah on Friday they understand it. Before our press conference was a 115 at Carrington. There was let's say a heated debate between Wilcox and AM with regard to the Wolves game when he gone back to a 3, 4 3. They stunk the place out really. They got a draw against Wolves. Wolves played all right but you know they arrived with two points left, left, left with three. And this was after he played a four against Newcastle on Boxing Day. And they looked after decent. Actually Dor played really well as a sort of right sided number 10. Scored the goal with a four at the back and oh a little bit of tactical flexible flexibility. But yeah there was that. And I actually sort of on Friday asked him about a comment he made on Christmas Eve sort of when he said actually I'm gonna, I may well switch my 343 because I now starting to understand that I can't get the big players for, for that system. And I thought why is he saying that now a year in? Did you not understand that when you came in? And basically in a nutshell, I asked him that on Friday and he sort of, sure, we're all aware of what happened. He batted it away. And then right at the end of the answer he sort of said well yeah, you're a smart guy as in you, you sort of susty a little because I mentioned Wilcox or a chat about budget and then that then led to Sunday post leads and we all know what happened there. The sort of scatter gun. I am very odd. I am the manager, not the head coach. And you know, if you ask me was it about me or something, I thought it was just a sack me that, you know, I just want to get out of here. So that's kind of, that's kind of my reading of it all.
- [05:21]
Max Rushden
So. So I mean you are the smart guy, Jamie. That's the point. Is that the greatest compliment, Jamie, for.
- [05:27]
John Brewin
Crawl bearing that in that it was you he was referring to?
- [05:31]
Jamie Jackson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I just, I just could not believe he said that because on Christmas Eve, as I say Kobby Maney was the top line of that story. But at the end of the story I remember speaking to John Brod, our football editor said look, there's this quote at the end. On another day I would suggest this is the top story, you know, him saying I I'm now starting to understand that I can't get the big players for my 343 so I need to change. I was like, you know, that's an interesting thing to say. As I say over a year in. And that was basically the premise of my question on the Friday. I stalled it up over a week later for, you know, for the right moment to ask him. And so, you know, I asked him it and it's interesting in a sort of previous media world at United you would not or I would not have been allowed a follow up and then a third follow up. Basically it was one. It used to be one question like 10 hag sort of times you get one question and they try and take the microphone off your just, you know, that the press office would. But because I was allowed to follow it up and follow up again in the end he sort of broke. I know when I mentioned the budget part clause of the question, it was a little Smile. And then when I mentioned Wilcox, he couldn't. He couldn't help himself.
- [06:31]
Max Rushden
Like Paxman, was it Hesselton? Just asking the same question again and again and again. You finally, you got him. This is your story. Reaction then from our Manchester United panelist.
- [06:41]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
NOS one. I mean, there's various reasons why. Why United fans wanted the Glazers out. One was the obvious one about them leeching money out of the club, but the other was that they were not interested in football. And you kind of felt as if. As if with Inyo, so you hoped that it would be football men making football decisions. What sort of concerns me most about this whole situation is I'm sad that Amrim's gone and I liked him, but I can totally appreciate the argument for why he did go because results weren't good enough. The thing that concerns me are these blurred lines and people interfering and this idea that Ratcliffe's getting involved in things that don't concern him in terms of his. Out of his expertise, in terms of football. Because, first of all, I mean, Jamie will be able to sort of, like, provide sort of context for this. But I get the sense that the last week or so, Amren has genuinely been trying to keep a lid on it. I think Amarim's tried not to sort of erupt. And I think it's. I think it's. I mean, Jamie doing his job, James Ducker doing his job. It's. It's sort of. They've got it out of him and they've sort of like, turned the knob, sort of, like, got him to sort of, like, sort of coax out of him. And then he's erupted and said how he felt, but I think he was trying to keep a legitimate. But one of the most interesting comments I found was the Gary Neville comment. This idea of him making a pointed comment to somebody about Gary Neville having too much of an influence. And I don't think that was a dig at Gary Neville, because Gary Neville just does his job as a pundit. I think that was a dig at somebody senior to him basically saying, why are you listening to Gary Neville? Why are you paying attention to Gary Neville when you should be backing me and reading between the lines. I don't think for one second, whatever you think of Wilcox, I don't think for one second, or Bivel, I don't think they would sort of turn around to Amrim and say, like, oh, Gary Neville says this, but I do fear that someone like Ratcliffe would. And the sounds that we're hearing about sort of Ratcliffe wanting a 442 Ratcliffe sort of suggesting Mbumo at fullback. It's like, who do you think you are? Like Amram doesn't advise sort of Ratcliffe on sort of petrol, sort of like dollars or like how to pollute the sort of environment. Like, who is he?
- [09:04]
John Brewin
That we know of, that we know.
- [09:06]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Of who is Radcliff? And this is what concerns me about going forward. Like you can say, o Amarin was the wrong guy and fair enough, get rid of him. What chance has the new guy got if you've got all this interference?
- [09:18]
Max Rushden
My favorite chairman getting involved story is that Cardiff City Vincent Tan had seen a goalkeeper score a goal and then went to the manager. I forget who it was. And just saying, have you thought about getting your keeper to shoot? It's not such a great. Let's really oversimplify this. I mean, I suppose on Amarim before we get to upstairs and the sort of chaos above him, Vivelle, the head of recruitment, isn't it? And Berardi and, and Wilcox like Amarim's intransigence with this formation, I mean it has been tiring for podcasters. I mean it must have been tiring for fans. It is odd, isn't it?
- [09:52]
Barry Glendenning
Manchester United work, fun to watch. They were appointment viewing. You'd, you know, you'd close the curtains if they're playing in your back garden, sort of because they're just bad to watch. Now our Jeremy Patsman friend here, jj hit on something with the personality of Amaran. I always found him when I've been in press conferences with him, quite immature. He's a 40 odd year old man. He has children. I was telling you Maxter, that I was up in Macclesfield over Christmas. Friends of mine had met him at sort of youth football with his sons playing it. They said, really nice guy, lovely man. But there was a prickliness about him and he obviously has an ego and he has that intransigence that you mentioned and it doesn't fit in the structure such as it is at Manchester United and his. And people like Jamie here can ask him questions and they know that he's going to give an answer and that actually and as also as Jamie said, he self detonated at a certain point he just thought, I've had enough here. He will be okay, he'll get another job somewhere. He's out of the club. And the football was terrible to watch. It was worse than it was under 10 Hagen, you name any list of these managers. I've forgotten how many There are now, you know, are you yearning for Ralf Rangnick At a certain point, the results this season weren't that bad. But you also had to consider that there's so many other teams in transition, not really getting anywhere. They don't have Europe. So he's having all week to train the players and then they still play this, this constipated Imodium football that I just. We were talking the other day, weren't we, about, you know, I moved to Morocco, the African nations. Are you going to watch the Leeds game? And I did catch the Leeds game and I actually thought United played well in the second half. It was quite. There was stuff happening. And you mentioned in Wemo that. That evening I saw him play for Cameroon and that's not a fullback, Jim. That is a. He was the best creative player on the pitch. He looked absolutely wonderful. And it's like. And I'm sure we'll get onto the gym thing, but the problem is billionaire egos control so much of our lives these days, don't they? And if a billionaire buys into a club, Jim will put in a structure and say, oh, it's all about what you know, we'll work through the structure. The structure is actually what Jim says goes. And that's how he wants it to operate. And someone like Reuben Amarim, who has a sense of self worth, is eventually going to turn around and say, I'm not having it. And that's essentially what's happened here. I'll miss the song. I won't miss Reuben Amarim. I don't think Reuben Amarim, apart from the nice cafes in Audley Edge, will miss his time at Manchester United. But I wish him the best of luck.
- [12:29]
John Brewin
Kind of alluded to it yesterday. I think he wanted to be fired. You don't make incendiary comments like that in a press conference without knowing there's a very good chance you will be sacked. It was a blatant act of insubordination, much the same as Enzo Maresque. And if you behave like that and you don't have the results to back it up, you will get sacked. I think he wanted to be sacked and I think he now gets to leave Manchester United. And he can say with some justification that he wasn't sacked because of bad results. He was sacked because he made these comments that the club hierarchy didn't approve of. And that's fair enough. He leaves with a big payoff. I don't think his reputation has particularly suffered. He's just some other bloke who's been through the Manchester United meat grinder and he'll rock up somewhere else and he may very well be successful. I mean, he was very wedded to this 3, 4, 3 formation, as we know. He did change it a couple of times, occasionally to good effect. But Manchester United knew that when he came in and they knew he needed the players to adapt to that or they knew he needed to bring in players who could play to that system. But as far as I can tell, they don't have the money to buy players now. So it was never really going to work. And for all that, I thought he was a nice bloke, I thought he was a welcome addition to the Premier League. I enjoyed listening to him talk and, yeah, I'd be interested to see where he ends up next.
- [14:18]
Max Rushden
He did say, look, not even the Pope would get him to change formation. Then he changed it for a game against Newcastle. He also one point called his side the worst Manchester United side in history. I wonder, Noz, on your Amarim journey, like, has it always been, this isn't going to work? Or have you had moments you've thought, oh, I've seen a little. I've seen something here. I feel like we've had this conversation before. Like, oh, I saw something, a thing. Or is that just like a helpless, hopeless fan clinging to something?
- [14:42]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
I mean, I completely agree with John in that a lot of it was just arduous to watch. A lot of people in the last 24 hours or 48 hours have referred to underlying numbers and underlying numbers are good. So that suggests that there was something going right, sort of within the. Sort of like formation or whatever. But this whole again, like, like hiring Amarim, like, what was the point? That's what the most frustrating thing is. It's like, what was all this for? Like, when, when. When Liverpool were looking to replace Klopp, they had slot and Amarim as their. As their shortlist. They decided against Amarim because they decided that employer manager who was so wedded to that three at the back would take. It would be too much of a change and it would cost too much money, which has played out at United. So why did we go through all that period of him saying, I'm not going to change from three in front, not going to change from three in the back. You had Wilcox saying, trust the process. Amram's doing the right thing, it's going in the right direction. And then suddenly deciding, no, no, it needs to be four. Like, we need to change the four. When he has throughout, you can Say what you like about Amarum. I agree. He's petulant, he's emotional. Really. As good a job as Jamie and others did in press conferences, he shouldn't have sort of took the bait. He should have had. Should have had more sense and been more professional than to sort of like fall for that. But if there's one thing he is, it's he's honest. And he has been honest. This is how I play. So, like, in the end, you kind of think, we went through that as fans, we bought into that. You as a club, told us he plays three at the back. This is the. It's the long game. We're going to waste half a season where we're. Where we're going to be rubbish. But it's a longer process and in the end, what was it? But it was for nothing.
- [16:37]
Max Rushden
Although to be fair, you have never been on the end of the Jamie Jackson question at a press conference. It's like the FBI, you know, you talk and then he goes out. Someone comes out and then Jamie goes back in, says, you know, the bad cop will get him. Look, we'll do more.
- [16:52]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Is Jamie good cop or bad cop?
- [16:53]
Max Rushden
He's bad cop, clearly. He's clearly. Get him in, get him in. He slams his head on the table and goes, you will testify, Ruben. You will testify. Anyway, that'll do for part one. We'll do the board in part two.
- [17:07]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds of. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situation.
- [17:50]
Max Rushden
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So look, Jamie, we've got Jason Wilcox, we've mentioned a lot. You've got Omar Berarda, the chief executive. Got the head of recruitment, Christopher Vivelle and Ineos. And you got big Sir Jim Ineos. And tell me if there's anyone I've missed. And there probably are thousands. All those bald guys sitting in the stand. Ineos always talk about like best in class decision making, sort of great sort of LinkedIn bollocks. And like, if you think. Yeah, if you think about. Thank you, John. If you think about, you know, keeping 10 hog after in the FA cup, giving him what, 200 million to spend, changing the whole backroom staff, getting rid of 10 Hag, appointing Ashworth, Dan Ashworth going, getting Amarim backing him with lots of money, then sacking him. I think fans are probably going, sorry, someone else's head needs to roll too. It's like, this is not best in class decision making.
- [18:39]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Yeah.
- [18:39]
Jamie Jackson
100. The sort of, you know, inside piece in today's Guardian that I wrote, basically it says, oh, everything you just said that, you know, sort of describe it as a morass at the club. And yes, Berarda basically appointed Wilcox. They know each other from Manchester City. Now, when I did the story on Sunday night saying that he's, you know, he could go, his future's in the balance, you know, I was told that in any sort of face off or power struggle between Wilcox and Amarin, there'd only be one winner. Not only because this is the structure, but because, you know, Berard is wedded to Wilcox. So then you then extrapolate from that and you say, well, so Jim Ratcliffe is like his old man, putting it politely, some might say a loose can. And he does what he likes, what he likes, sort of thing. And if he's now starting to. Everything you just catalog then is basically embarrassing, humiliating, you know, a farce. So if Jim Rack wakes up one morning, thinks, wait a minute, I'm looking like a bit of a chump here. And, you know, and who's responsible for this? Well, it's Berarda, actually. You know, the chief executive employed Wilcox. I could see a, you know, a world or a scenario where one or both of those at some point, a chart. I'm not saying it's gonna happen today or tomorrow, but you are completely correct. I mean, you know, Ash was an interesting one. I think we all probably picked up on it. I think he went because he didn't fancy hammering because of everything that. That Nas just said, you know, you know, what we're all saying, everyone could see. I mean, you know, he thought it was. It was a bad. A bad fit. I mean, I will just sort of drop in this. If you're an elite footballer, which Manchester United supposed to deal in, we can all argue about how many they've actually got. You should I. I would argue a bit like a coach be able to adapt your game.
- [20:08]
John Brewin
Right.
- [20:08]
Jamie Jackson
So you're playing, say as a fullback, career fullback, you come up that way. If the coach turned around and said, well, you know, I want you to play wing back. I don't think that's that big a step because surely a fullback supposed to bomb up and down the, the wing, you know, and defend as, as, as a sort of wing back. So there is that part of it. How much is that as an excuse? But I, you know, as I, I, I several times during his tenure, which was 14 months, some of the stuff he was saying, so some of the things you mentioned now, I, you know, the Pope thing, the worst team ever, and you're sitting there and you're thinking, this is like some sort of interesting experiment. How, how, how, how much of this are united. This is Ratcliffe Barada. It says you're going to accommodate before they go, wait a minute. You know, he's got some novelty value at the start. You know, he's got some sort of, he's got some collateral in the bank. He's just been employed. But there's the results start to sort of nose dive and nose dive and nose dive. Listen, I got told a tale, I can't remember which game it was, basically emerged that he'd smashed up a tv. But I actually got told was he started crying. Yes, he started crying about in, in the dressing room, wherever this TV apparently was smashed up, which he may have done as part of this, but I was told he started, he was in, he was in tears and that was, that sort of took staff and whoever else was there a little bit of back, as if to say, you know, this is an interesting developer. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with tears, don't get me wrong. But, you know, so, I mean, in that context, it was a surprise. Yeah. I mean, I think someone said temperamental. You know, you're completely correct about him. Volatile. But again, you can do whatever you like in sport if you win. Right. It's as simple as that. Yes. Now, this is why Ferguson, you know, it's like, you know, like the sort of. I was at the Groomsby game that the, the, the tactics boarder gets out. It doesn't if, if grooms be stuffed. Five nil. Oh, he's a g. No, not a genius. But, you know, you don't, you don't give a watsi, do you? Yeah, but because it's all about results. And so some, some of the things he was coming out with, I mean, I, I was, you know, I was sort of, as someone who sort of been there since Ferguson last season after Ferguson covering them, I was thinking this is, this is a new development. They've got almost like a sort of trying hard to describe it's almost like a sort of some sort of character out of. Out of a comic in a way. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but just sort of like so colorful and, and kind of in his own way, vibrant. But, yeah, some of the stuff he was saying, I think John was right. He, in a way you could say, is quite immature. The way in which, you know, the whole part of the. Part of the Pope quote was I, this is my exist, you know, about the 343, not. Not changing it. This is my existence, this is my life, you know, so, you know how we believe in the 3, 4, 3. You're just thinking, it's not worth it. That much rooms.
- [22:40]
Barry Glendenning
You know, he didn't ask to be born. You know, he didn't ask to be born. That's, that's, that's how he just. I, I remember, I mean, if I was sat with the great Jamie Jackson at one of these press conferences and it was a game film we did earlier last year, and he, his behavior in that press, because he's sort of smirking at some of the questions, like, why are you asking me that? And just like, it's like, that's not really how you're supposed to carry yourself. But I think the thing is, though, within that, I developed a bit of an affection for him. I didn't think he's a bad person or anything like that. But you're talking about the structure of the club. Jason Wilcox, now there's a guy headed for, you would have thought, pariah status after this. He's the guy almost carrying a cam for this now, isn't it? After the stories we've heard, I think most Manchester United fans would probably have Toya Wilcox in charge rather than him.
- [23:32]
John Brewin
One for the dads.
- [23:33]
Barry Glendenning
But yes. And, you know, it's like this sporting director thing. We've seen it with Chelsea. I mean, Chelsea have five sporting directors, so that creates this. You know, They've got a 5si team of sporting directors, directors for the fans to hate. And that's what United fans have now don't. Because this sporting director structure that we have, of course, with Big Jim at the top, it's. It doesn't make sense to us in England, even though they've had these. They've had these things in Italy, in Spain. But one of the things is Jason Wilcox very rarely speaks on the records. We don't really know much about him other than him being a player for Blackburn many years ago and say in Italy that the Sporting director will speak and we'll just tell what's going on. So we don't really know what their thoughts are and we don't hear them on the record too often and they might give it off, off the record briefings to the likes of Sir Jamie here. But it's so you've got these people that people can't relate to and they're making the decisions. And the thing is if those decisions are good, sporting directors like Michael Edwards was lionized at Liverpool for a long time, are heroes. But the problem is they don't have anything tangible to back it up. And so people are like, what actually do these blokes do? And we don't know. And Amarim's job was to coach a team which he wasn't particularly successful at, so people can judge him for that. And all you can judge the decision makers at Manchester United is the success of their decisions. And that decision making has been repeatedly disastrous since Big Sejim came in.
- [25:08]
Max Rushden
Noz, what do you. Would you like a total clear out? Like what's the fans desire?
- [25:12]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
I don't think the blame starts and ends with Amarim. That's the thing. I don't want, I don't want it to be seen as if like I'm defending Amarin, but it doesn't end with him. Like the whole, the thing is that, that we had Fergie and Fergie was this genius, this, this once and a multi generational sort of like genius who could do so much and he was a genuine manager. He was probably the last great manager in the old sense. But ever since it's almost as if we've been looking for like the next Bergson and the next Ferguson doesn't exist. Not only because, not only because someone as good as Ferguson doesn't exist, but the role of Ferguson doesn't exist. So instead of getting one person who's gonna magically make everything okay, what you need to do in the modern game is have the chain working. You need, you need four or five people in the chain to be really, really good, to succeed. And if anyone in that chain is not good, then it falls down. And the concern is it's such a mess. And I think the fans have lost all trust in Ineos and lost all trust in the suits because you've got Ashworth who was brought in before Berarda was in place. Berarda sort of like he wasn't Berarda's guy. They got rid of him. They got, then they got Amarim who was Berarda's choice, but he wasn't Wilcox's choice. And then you've got Wilcox, who's. Who's a suit, who doesn't say at press conferences, who doesn't have to face Jamer, who, who sort of like is making these decisions. And then is. I find it weak that, that you've got Ratcliffe saying he wants to play four at the back and Wilcox accepting that and then sort of forwarding that on. It's like, have some integrity about your role and your expertise. So then you've got, you've got Wilcox essentially telling Amarim how to set out his team. And this whole thing about Amarim being either a manager or a coach, even if he's the head coach, at the very least, give the head coach the autonomy to pick his team and pick his formation. If nothing else, let him do that. So, I mean, in short, it's all a mess. It's all going wrong and whoever United employ next is. It's not going to work until anything else changes. You need to get rid of these blurred lines and everyone needs to know exactly what their territory is.
- [27:35]
John Brewin
The thing is, a lot of, or most of Sir Jim Ratcliffe's forays into sport under the INEOS banner have been unsuccessful. I flagged this up when he arrived on the scene at Old Trafford with David Brailsford as this Smithers type character walking around bowing obsequiously to him and holding a clipboard. But the inios, when he got involved or took over Sky Cycling, their performances nose dived. His Formula 1 team is bang average. America's copy sailing team got slaughtered in the America's Cup Final by, I think it was New Zealand. Nice. Weren't, aren't particularly successful or certainly weren't. And I'm not sure how they're getting on this season, but he's. His forays in sport have been mediocre at best. So there is no reason to suppose that his involvement with Manchester United would be anything better than mediocre at best. He talks about a good game, but he is a bit of a windbag.
- [28:45]
Max Rushden
Well, I mean, in the words we don't like on the INEOS wheel of words we like words we don't like. Making the same mistake twice. We don't like that. Don't do dumb. We don't like that. And of course, lukewarm cappuccino. I mean, anyway, bs. We don't like bs.
- [29:04]
Barry Glendenning
Just, just, just a quick one. I was chatting to a friend of mine who's a former Staff member at the club and he was at the Big Sigmund launch speech, you know to the staff. Yeah, Big to Jim came in and pretty much said, you know, I'm here for a good time, you know, I, I don't need the money. And within 18 months everyone in that room pretty much is no longer at the club with cost cutting exercises. I heard a story also of Jamie May know this, the, the. She was the receptionist, wasn't she Kath, that died 18 months ago or so. And in the funeral you walked in basically right hand side old style Fergie era, left hand side big surgeon era. No, this. These two parts of the club were not interacting at all. And there's this idea isn't there, of people coming into a club and essentially the club is a host being for them rather than what the actual the club, what the club was or is and the old United. And you know, I agree with Noz, we can't go back to relive the Fergie days. He can't try and retread history. But the cuts they've made both with the past and financially have ripped the heart out of the club. And so that's why you have this great big hole that Amarim found himself fighting against. Maybe he wasn't equipped to deal with it, but it appears those people who have been put in charge by Big are capable of dealing with it either. And that's the issue that we have.
- [30:40]
Max Rushden
All right, we'll talk about what's next in just a second. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Young Yorkville says which former Manchester United player will be named caretaker manager in 2028 to replace the next manager. Yeah, gone back to some DNA, Jamie with Darren Fletcher who, you know, ticks all the boxes, doesn't he Jamie? He's, you know, he's well thought of at the club. He seems to be a good up and coming coach. He's got real connections with the club, two of his boys are there, etc. Etc. You know we, we've seen this before with gigs with Carrick, with Solskjaer. It probably is the right call for now I get. I mean who knows?
- [31:21]
Jamie Jackson
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one because he was at one stage a technical director, which is, which was Jason Wilcox's first post, you know, before he became director of football. So what I'm. And you know he, he's the under 18s coach now and what I'm working up to say is he's kind of, kind of was he's now been promoted by the same people who kind of demoted him. And again, fair play to me. He's hung around. But what I'm getting to saying is I just wonder what his fate is going to be long term at the club. You know, they're talking about an interim, possibly to the end of the season. But it might be an interim after this. Interim. Or it might, you know, so they might replace Fletcher with, yeah. Carrick or whoever else. Or it might, it might, might be Darren Fletcher if, if he does. Well, I don't know. It all feels, yeah, a little bit sort of amateurish to be honest. This whole. Not, not Fletcher. I mean, this, what we're talking about here, the sort of, you know, where, where United have been since Ferguson left, basically. I mean, you know, it's a work in progress that's been going on for sort of 12, 13 years now. Right. He left in May 2013. And it doesn't, you know, it's Groundhog Day all over again or whatever of a cliche. You want to sort of like recycle, you know, I'll be at the game tomorrow at Burnley. They may well win, they may not. But I just, I think structurally the club is in a lot, a lot of trouble. And it's interesting because I completely accept that Ferguson, as Noz said, you know what, it's definitely a genius, but it was a manager and sort of maybe a former time of football. But I actually think, if you actually think about it, if you wanted to sort United out, you actually, I think you actually do need a football person of right. Can't be Ferguson because he's a one off. I get that multi generation is a great way of describing his unbelievable abilities. But I actually think you need kind of like Guardiola's got at City. So he has a director of football. It was formerly bigger Astine, obviously, but you know, he is, he is the closest you've got to a Ferguson now because nothing happens at that club that matters, you know, without his say so. And actually again, what Noz says is correct because they're at that club, they're all there to sort of serve Guardiola and they're all sort of good at their jobs. You can have an argument about or a debate about, you know, sort of other stuff, you know, the sort of the country that owns the club and all the rest of it is politics. Not particularly palatable. But Alma Barak's a good chairman, Soriano sort of, you know, as good chief executive. But they're all they're all like, it was all set up for Guardiola. That's why Pellegrini went in there, I think for whatever it was two years because they're waiting for him to come from Bayern Munich. City, I know United people don't want to hear, but cities in. With regard to what I'm talking about, what Nozz has basically said about how you have to have these people in the chain that are all really good, that is the best example I can think of that I know of any, you know, know a little bit about. So if you have a director of football, I still think that director of football has to defer to the manager, stroke, head coach, whatever you want to cook. Because in the end it's quite simple, right? You live or die by your results. And how do you get results?
- [34:09]
Barry Glendenning
The players.
- [34:10]
Jamie Jackson
And, and so if you, you know, the managers should be allowed or the head coach should be allowed to identify. And within reason, I'm not saying you, you give the head coach a blank check and he can buy, you know, can buy sort of a left back from the dog and duck. But you know what I'm getting at, you know, he has to have autonomy. What is the point in employing him? What is the point in, in sort of chucking 9 or 10 million pound a year? Amari, in this example, if actually you're going to sort of say, well, yeah, you've got all this money and you, you are, you know, the manager. United head coach has three jobs. Lead the team on the field, the training ground and actually. And the public face. Yes. You know, the sort of PR stuff that we're talking about, it's kind of led to his downfall. But if you're not allowing him to sort of do it his way, why employ him? I just, I just don't understand it. I, I actually think it should be part of the job description of the director of football, for example, the chief executive. They should come and see us of every, you know, the media at least twice a year. Yeah, at least twice a year. There's a famous example where it was last season when Tenag was still in place and Berard and Ashworth, as it were, at a sit down with us, the sort of patch people. It was on the, it was on the sort of morning or midday of the Liverpool game ahead of that game, which United, United lost. And you get them in the room and, you know, it's interesting because you soon find them out, you soon have them contradicting themselves. So, you know, sort of try to say one thing and then okay, you've said that what about this? And it's like so they would soon learn very quickly actually how difficult it is for Amarin or any head coach to come out and hustle. And they do it really well most of the time these managers. But you know, I really think, because then what would happen is I, I sort of believe this is a good quality. They'd have a bit of empathy for a bit of understanding for you know, the chief executive of the director will have a bit of understanding for what the head coach has to do to deal with in the public glare. And I think that would help everyone. But you know, it's interesting what John said then just, just very quickly to round this off, it is factionalized the club or actually was factualized until a lot of basically the former people staff who he's called, you know, have gone. So, so I, I hear this all the time from people. I know this. There's a real division between the ineos and sort of people and the non ineos people. And again it's not rocket science. It's supposed to be a team sport. And that's sounds a bit cheesy but on the field and off the field and if you're not, if you're in a football club where people think well am I gonna be the next be laid off for example, how can that ever have a nice positive right, we're all in this together, you know, it's difficult enough anyway, is it the Premier League without having all this sort of like almost banana republic like sort of politics to deal with.
- [36:35]
John Brewin
Well, one presumes what will happen now is that Darren Fletcher will take a press conference today ahead of the Burnley game tomorrow. He will immediately be asked do you have your eye on the job long term? He will of course say no, I'm just focusing on the Burnley game. Then say he does something wildly controversial like picks three at the back to face Burnley, beats them seven nil and then goes on a bit of a run. So Manchester United go, hey, we were going to put in an interim after the interim but Darren's or Darren's doing well here so we'll, we'll let him stay in charge. He goes on to qualify for the Champions League and people will say oh well, you have to give Darren the job now. So they do. And then next season it all goes pear shaped again because the Darren bounce has worn off. I, I feel we've been here before.
- [37:36]
Max Rushden
Nos, there is a question from Howman Sadri says who would even Want to go there anymore. Seems like career suicide.
- [37:43]
Jamie Jackson
Like.
- [37:43]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Like.
- [37:43]
Max Rushden
And I'm a United fan, he says, like, I suppose that is. I sort of wonder on a sort.
- [37:48]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Of larger scale, you know, it feels.
- [37:51]
Max Rushden
Like this with Tottenham a bit as well. It's almost like it's impossible. Like, it is impossible to manage Manchester United well, but maybe the next person could do.
- [38:00]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
I think it's the most pressurized job in football. I think it's the. It's the sort of, in a lot of ways, the worst job in football because. Because you've got the worst of both worlds. You've got an imperfect situation and you've got everything working against you in terms of it being chaotic and imperfect. The squad's not right, the hierarchy's not right. Nothing's quite right. But no matter where United drop in the table or how bad they do, the. The scrutiny, the attention, the focus will always be red hot. It will. That will never go down. It will never match. It will never be like the. The results go down. United are rubbish team, therefore the attention goes down. It will. That will never happen. United will always get engagement. United will always get rage. United will always be loved and hated. So that will. In that sense, it's the worst of both worlds. And. And that's the thing because. Because then you do start to think. You kind of think, okay, if they get the hierarchy in order and everyone realizes, everyone accepts what their job is and sticks to it, then who would be the right manager? And going to what. Going back to what Jamie said in terms of like, if there was like an equivalent of Fergus. The closest to equivalent of Fergie in. In football at the moment is probably Ancelotta. Just in terms of somebody who could. Somebody who's used to. Used to sort of play, but we're used to managing in sort of a hierarchy. He's the most experienced. He's. He's incredibly practical and pragmatic. He's a great man. Manager. So he would be an obvious choice. So that's one option.
- [39:29]
Max Rushden
He is used to working with. He is used to working with really good players. But the only difference.
- [39:34]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Yeah, that's. I mean, yeah, I mean. I mean. I mean, there was. There was that incident at Everton, so. So, I mean, like.
- [39:41]
Max Rushden
Yeah, of course, yeah.
- [39:42]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Okay. He has struggled in the Granada region, so I think in the past, United have tried to be far too cute in their appointments. Like, they've tried to go for the next big thing or the next sort of like discovering somebody, whereas a sensible but quite sort of unsexy choice would be Emery from Villa. But it goes back to what you're saying, Max, in a sense. Why would Emery leave Villa? He's got the perfect setup. He's trusted there. He knows exactly what he's doing there. Why on earth would he sort of ruin life and come to United? And you can say, because it's Manchester United and because it's the biggest game, because it's the biggest sort of, like, job in town, but is it really worth it? You've seen. You've seen how happy Amarin was, like, leaving, like, and it's almost become a joke of, like, how any player or manager, when they leave United, like, their skin cleans up. Like, they magically got more hair. They just look sort of like, farmer happier in life and their teeth are.
- [40:46]
John Brewin
Whiter, nice shiny coat.
- [40:50]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
But that's the thing. It's. It's like, who. Who wants that job at the moment? And even. Even in terms of, like, the people you're looking at, like, okay, if you look at another pragmatic sort of coach, you look at someone like Pochettino. But getting anyone who's involved in the World cup, isn't. Isn't summer going to be incredibly truncated? Isn't going to. In terms of transfers, in terms of pre season, in terms of everything. It's just, it's. It's. It's a perfect mess at the moment.
- [41:14]
John Brewin
Can I just say that it seems weird that quite a few of the people being named as potential future managers at Manchester United have already made it extremely clear that they have no time for the kind of bullshit they will have to put up with from the. The guys in the suits that Dion Fanning famously called the Politburo of bullshit that sit in the stands for every game. So why would they go there? You know, Emory wants power, Glasner wants power, Tuchel wants power. And they want the kind of power that they're not going to get it. United. So short of going solely for the money or by thinking, oh, I. I can, you know, override this Politburo of, you know, it just seems to be a feedback loop of this nonsense just going to happen over and over again.
- [42:17]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah.
- [42:17]
Max Rushden
And as. As we've said before, anyone who isn't a United fan who grew up in the. It's a wonderful circle. But if you are a United fan, we feel for you. We will find out who will ruin their life, I guess, in the next few weeks or months.
- [42:30]
John Brewin
I guess there was something I wanted to raise. I'm just curious to hear anyone's thoughts on this. But in his press conference outburst, Amarim referred to the Nevilles. And I'm just wondering, right, so in the punditocracy at the moment, we have all these Manchester United players who played under Sir Alex Ferguson. We got Rooney, Rio. But Keane, Neville, Scholes Hargreaves isn't as vocal as the rest of them. But they're all repeatedly sniping from the sidelines about how everything was better back in their day. Do you think that helps and do you think that what they say genuinely influences what goes on at United behind the scenes?
- [43:16]
Barry Glendenning
Yes, I think. I think it probably does. I mean, Jamie mentioned, you know, this idea of Gary Neville's influence. Clearly Jim Radcliffe listens to the overlap and, you know, and the thing is, this has happened before. We've talked about before how Liverpool had this back in the 90s where, you know, you switch on the TV and Alan Hanson, Mark Lawrenceon are there.
- [43:40]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
It's.
- [43:40]
Barry Glendenning
It's just part of being a big club. You've got to deal with it. Part of running Manchester United, it's. Manchester itself is an anarchic place. It's full of. Think of the people that come from Manchester. It's a wild place. Shawn Ryder, Tony Wilson, Nos just completely out of control. And yeah, weirdly enough, Manchester City as it was reflected that when it was, that was out of control, it was completely out of control. On the other side of town, United was out of control. They're both out of control. And it needed in Busby, a godfather to run the club. Ferguson, another godfather. And then you've got City, you know, they got a country in to actually sort this out. Maybe it's just Manchester's just mad and you just can't do it. And it's. And so who are you going to find? This person, you know, Trump's available or whatever. And it's like, it's, it's, it's maybe the impossible job. The unmanageable club, the unmanageable city. It's just too hard and we just have to live with it and it's just gonna have to live with the soap opera. Do you know what? Yeah. We're doing a special pod because it's interesting because it's Manchester United and this is what they do. They sell papers, they get clicks and it's all been nonsense for 13 years and long. Matt CONTINUES yes, exactly. Yes.
- [44:57]
Jamie Jackson
More, more.
- [44:58]
Barry Glendenning
Please.
- [44:58]
John Brewin
Give it Garrett.
- [45:00]
Max Rushden
That's what you want.
- [45:02]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Yeah.
- [45:02]
Max Rushden
Can't get Gareth, can't be at the wheel and take the handbrake off. Anyway, we must shop, because we must. We'll be back tomorrow, but thank you, everybody. Thank you, John.
- [45:11]
Barry Glendenning
Cheers.
- [45:11]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
All best.
- [45:12]
Max Rushden
Thank you. N see.
- [45:13]
Barry Glendenning
Yeah.
- [45:13]
Max Rushden
Thanks, Jamie. Nice to see you.
- [45:14]
Jamie Jackson
Thanks ever so much.
- [45:15]
Max Rushden
Cheers, Barry.
- [45:16]
Nuradeen Chowdhury
Thank you.
- [45:16]
Max Rushden
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.
- [45:25]
Barry Glendenning
This is the Guardian.