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Football Weekly
Vinícius Júnior’s brilliance overshadowed by accusations of racism: Football Weekly
00:51:54
Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Lars Sivertsen and Nicky Bandini as a brilliant Vinícius goal is overshadowed by alleged racist abuse at Real Madrid’s 1-0 win over Benfica
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- [00:00]
A
This is the Guardian.
- [00:10]
B
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise.
- [00:38]
A
Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. A chaotic night of Champions League playoffs in Lisbon. A brilliant Vinicius goal overshadowed by accusations of racism against Benfica's Gianluca Prestiani. Real were prepared to stop playing, but eventually came out and carried on Afterwards. Jose chose his words incredibly badly and a grim reminder that this is all still here. Elsewhere, Monaco stunned the holders PSG for 20 minutes. Desiree due off the bench and changed it all, giving them a one goal advantage going into the second leg. Meanwhile, Juve implode at Galatasaroy and Dortmund take a healthy lead to Bergamo. While we're in Europe, we'll do a little bit of La Liga and Serie A. Also today, Macclesfield's heroic FA cup defeat. A fifth round draw to digest a bit of EFL as Colchester stun Cambridge to leave the Abbey with a point. We'll answer your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendenning.
- [01:28]
C
Hello. Hi Max.
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A
Welcome. Nikki Bandini.
- [01:31]
D
Morning.
- [01:31]
A
And hello. Lars Sivitson.
- [01:33]
E
Hi, Max.
- [01:34]
A
Well, it will start with the Benfica Real Madrid game and I said in the intro, totally overshadowed by the accusations of racism against Vinicius junior. The game was paused after he scored a absolutely brilliant goal. He celebrated in the corner a sort of kind of Lee Sharpie celebration and afterwards he accused Benfica's 20 year old Argentina Gianluca Prestiano of racism, which was backed up by Kylian Mbappe that he'd used the word mono or monkey a number of times. The referee performed the gesture, confirmed that he was activating the anti racism protocol and the the game was stopped for 10 minutes following conversations between the players, managers and officials. The two teams played on. I'll just read what a few people said. Vinicius said racists are above all cowards. This is on Instagram. They need to put their shirts over their mouths to demonstrate how weak they are. But they have on their side the protection of others who theor critically have the obligation to punish. Nothing that happened here today was new in my life and my family's. I received a yellow card for celebrating a goal. I still don't understand why. On the other hand, just a poorly executed protocol that served no Purpose. I don't like appearing in situations like this. Even more so after a great victory and when the headlines have to be about Real Madrid. But it's necessary. Preciani denied the allegations. He wrote on Instagram this morning, I want to clarify that at no time did I direct racist insults to Vinnie Jr. Who regrettably misunderstood what he thought he hear. I was never racist with anyone. I regret the threats I received from Real Madrid players. Mbappe said, Pre only called Vinicius a monkey five times. I saw it. I cannot let things like this go. He's a young player. How can you say things like this on a football pitch? We were going to go. That was the team's decision. I don't know what happened. And then we came back. This type of person is no colleague. He shouldn't play in the Champions League again. Arboloa, the Real Madrid coach, said, you have to ask the Benfica player what he said. We all deserve a response to that question. We have to be totally intolerant of racism. We cannot allow things like this to happen on the pitch in 2026. I have no reason not to believe Vinicius. And then Jose said, I spoke to Alvaro Arbolo before I understood what the problem was. Just to say, this guy Venus scores a goal, that's out of this world. Why does he. Why is he being stupid in the corner? Later, when I realized, it seems Vinicius doesn't want to play. We're talking about whether we play again. I want to be trying to be more balanced than Arboloa and Mbappe. I do not want to say Vinicius is a liar, nor do I want to say my player is an incredible boy. Then he said, I told Vinnie Jr. The celebration had to be different. This club has Eusebio as alleged, a black player. Benfica is not a racist club. I know actually of all the things that have been said in. In the media aftermath, that from Jose is, if I'm being generous, Nikki, incredibly badly chosen words.
- [04:23]
D
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. I feel like in all the time I've been covering football, every time we get these horrible situations coming up, which is far too many times of racist abuse, it seems like this unavoidable part of it, that at some point someone is going to come up with basically some variation on this line. Well, shouldn't provoke it, shouldn't encourage it, shouldn't give them excuse to do it. It's tempting to want to almost be flippant about it with Josie, because you know what? Of all the people who sodding provokes people. Of all the people who isn't afraid to rile opponents up and get opposition fans and give them an excuse to be angry. Jose is right up there. But actually, it's not a thing to be flippant about, is it? It's disgraceful to be in any way trying to shift the blame for alleged racist abuse onto the victim of it. And it's ridiculous as well. I mean, even leaving aside the fact that it wasn't to me, an especially provocative celebration. He did a little dance by the corner flag, by the way. He didn't go, I don't know, flooded by or running the length of the pitch to go and get in front of someone's face. He did a little dance by the corner flag. But the principle of it is outrageous. There's no world in which we should be blaming a footballer for celebrating a goal as being responsible for them being abused. Of course, again, alleged abuse. We haven't got any confirmation that he was racially abused. It's all taking someone's word against the other. But certainly it's a very bad look when you see the replays and Prestiani is covering his mouth and he's clearly saying something to Vinicius and designed to provoke him and. Yeah, horrible, horrible stuff.
- [06:16]
A
And actually, Lars, it's. One of the problems of the tribal nature of football is nobody ever wants to call out their own club or call out their own players. It takes real bravery to that on any level. I'm not saying that's. That's not an excuse for Jose saying, hey, look, Benfica is not a racist club, but it takes real bravery in that moment to just try to just say what you should say, which is, I don't. I don't know what's happened, but if that's what's happened, it is totally unacceptable. It will be dealt with. And there is no place for racism at this football club. That just feels like. That feels like not that difficult thing to say.
- [06:50]
E
Yeah, I guess this story shouldn't be about Mourinho, really, but in the interview I saw on television, he started out so well by saying, like, I'm not essentially saying, I'm not. I'm not gonna call my player a liar, and I'm not gonna call Vinicius a liar, which I think is kind of a defensible position just about. Because the reality is, because he covers his mouth, we don't know what he says. And we can all make up our mind about what we think is the most likely thing here. But we don't know. So we have to drop allegedly in. We have to drop just how that works. But to even infer that, you know, the words Invenicio's clearly experienced hearing, we can say that are somehow not didn't mean what he thought they meant because they had a very good black player 50 years ago. It's completely insane. Like it's one of those things. I try to say that out loud once more to the mirror and are you happy with how that sentence sounds, Jose? And even all this stuff about how things happen to Vinicius wherever he goes. The thing about racism is when we say zero tolerance, it needs to mean zero tolerance so you can make points. I mean when it comes to him being booed, when it comes to people chucking stuff at him, you can bring in stuff like he could have celebrated someone else, he couldn't have done, blah, blah, blah. But if we mean zero tolerance for racism, that means all of that is irrelevant. Nothing of that comes into play. Like any sort of, any sort of racial thing whatsoever is always unacceptable. And whatever precedes it, whatever the perceived catalyst was, is completely irrelevant. To bring that up as pathetic, embarrassing and small minded by a guy. And we see so many people who say, oh, I'm disappointed, we shouldn't be disappointed with him. This is how Joseph Bruno behaves. We should be used to this by now. I was really just to try to find something. I mean there's nothing positive in this. I was really impressed by the Wavenicius carried himself when the game went on. And really by the way the game sort of actually was finished and people, I thought for sure we're gonna have at least one red card here. Like when things were kicking off and even though you had that nine minute break to settle down and I thought at least Vinicius Jr. Is gonna have to, you know, take himself out of it because he was clearly and understandably not in a good headspace. But the game was finished and there were no sort of chaos or shenanigans. And it was a very professional job by Real Madrid to finish out the game. And I just thought the composure that Venezia showed every time he was on the ball, every time he was involved after the incident was incredibly impressive and he deserves to be applauded for that.
- [09:28]
A
Yeah, and actually you're right to say that is the story is about him. After the game, Trent Alexander Arnold said, look, I, I can't comment too much on it as it's an ongoing investigation at this point. I think what's happened tonight is a disgrace to football, overshadowed the performance as well as after an amazing goal. Vinnie's been subject to this a few times throughout his career. To ruin a night like this for our team is a disgrace. No place for it in football or society. It's disgusting. And you know, Vinicius barrier said in 2024 he felt less and less like playing because of the abuse. In June 2024, three Valencia fans were jailed for eight months for racially abusing him she during a La Liga game the previous year. Five people were handed suspended prison sentences in 2025 for racially abusing him. That incident occurred during Real Madrid's game against real Valadalid in September 2022. You know, and it is, you know, it, it is the thing with racism is that a white player doesn't have to suffer that whatever they're doing on the pitch. And he does and repeatedly he has and it's just so depressing.
- [10:27]
C
I mean people have been saying should we expect better from Jose Marino? Potty said. Didn't surprise me. He can be a very charming man at times, he can be a very, very unpleasant man and he has a lot of form in that department. But I've seen since this happened, Clarence Seedorf and Theo Walcott talk about it on Amazon Prime, I've seen Meek Richards and Thierry Henry talk about it on the CBS coverage and what struck me is just how thoroughly depressed and fed up they are at a this happening and b them having to talk about this happening. Mika Richards, who's a normally really happy chap, just looked so pissed off just that this was a topic of post match conversation and Thierry Henry was relating his own experiences of being racially abused when he was a player. And he said, look, people tell you to rise above it and I tried to be cocky and aloof and shush the crowd and whatnot, but he said my abiding memory of this happening to me is how lonely it makes you feel out on the pitch and, and just in life in general being racially abused. And he was very critical of Jose Marino's post match comments and put it down to the classic Jose deflection. And he said what, what we need to be talking about is what Prestiani said. What did he say? We need to find out what he said. And as, as has been mentioned, it's very much he said he said at the moment. But Killian Mbappe said he heard what was said and Killian Mbappe said that several Benfica players heard what was said. So hopefully it will come out in, in the wash tier. Henry also said, you know, we need to have an investigation now. This can't be kicked into the long grass. We need to find out as soon as possible and due process has to be followed. And I don't know, do you take Prestiani out of the return leg or. You know, part of me thinks let him go, let him play and see how he gets on because it'll be. Won't be a nice evening for him if he is playing at the Bernabeu. Yeah, it's. It's just sad that we're having to talk about this in this day and age, isn't it? I thought. Also actually, Wayne Rooney spoke very well about it on Amazon prime and Mark Clattenberg, actually, he was. He was sort of the ref expert on the comms and he, he kind of went down the Jose route as well, saying that Vinicius Jr. Was making things difficult for the referee by, you know, the celebration. I thought that was a bit depressing, but I think Clattenberg just isn't very bright. I don't think there was any malice there. So, yeah, it's sad. It's overshadowed a really entertaining evening of football in the competition.
- [13:43]
E
I guess Clattenberg is just kind of selfishly looking at it from the position of a referee who just wants a quiet day at the office. You know, when a goal is scored at an away ground, potentially hostile crowd and the player celebrates closer to the fans than he has to, the referee probably goes internally. Oh, for God's sake. Like this. We don't need this. But I think there's a point there, which is not to hammer Clattenberg specifically, but when there is an alleged racist incident, we need to get better at realizing that nothing else matters. Like every other circumstance around, it is currently completely irrelevant, all of those concerns. And that needs to be an automatic, reflexive, instinctive reaction, the sort of justificatory stuff. I don't think that's fair on Clattenberg, really, because I think he said that before the racism protocol was invoked. But it goes back to the Mourinho point again, not to specifically have Mourinho. We need to get out of the mindset of looking for reasons why this happened, because the reasons do not matter. And that needs to be a reflex, not something we arrive at after thinking about it for a couple of minutes. And that's something that needs to get better.
- [14:51]
D
I think, I do think if there's anything to say on the other side of that, actually, it's just that you Know what? At least the referee did immediately stop the game, did immediately try to get to the bottom of it. Clearly, that wasn't something that's possible. Again, we have to acknowledge this is a he situation, right, because you haven't got footage that, at least until now, that's come out, that's picked up exactly what Prestiani said. And for the referee, that's got to be incredibly complicated. I think we can acknowledge that from the referee's point of view. But he did do what he was supposed to do. He stopped the game and he tried to make space to investigate that. I thought that. I'm really glad Barry said that bit from Omri, because I thought that was so well said about that experience and an insight that none of us here can put forward. Right? We haven't been professional footballers who've been racially abused, so that's an insight that he has that none of us could put forward. And I think that one thing that, again, if you wanted to say the things that weren't horrible last night, it was actually really. It felt like a profound gesture of solidarity. At least that Mbappe was saying afterwards, first of all, was immediately backing his story up and saying, I heard it too, but also said, look, I said, divini, if you want to go, let's go. Let's get off the pitch. That's the end of the game. We're not playing on, if that's what you want to do. And I think that, if nothing else, it sounds like Vinicius has that support internally from some of his teammates. And I think that's probably really important when you're going through this experience, which, again, as Omris said, is profoundly a lonely one.
- [16:26]
E
I used to think Mbappe is showing real leadership throughout the whole thing. And Bapa, who is a character who hasn't always been praised for his general behavior the last two years, I think that's fair saying. But it 100% should be noted that, you know, in a very, very serious situation, he 100% stands up for his teammate and. And uses his platform and his voice to make the points that should be made very, very cogently and clearly. So, yeah, he deserves a lot of praise for that.
- [16:56]
A
Just on the game, Lars, and I'm, you know, I agree with all of you. It is depressing that that's how we have to start the pod and have this conversation, but it's absolutely the right thing that we had this conversation and hopefully we've covered it as well as we can.
- [17:09]
D
The.
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A
The. The goal is so good. I mean, that's the thing. It's like. It is this moment of absolute. We know he's capable of that and he doesn't always produce that, but when he does it and you see that, it's like this. It's one of those where the replay from behind, it is just perfect.
- [17:23]
E
Yeah. And the thing about the goal, it's not that completely normal. Cut inside, over to your right foot and curl in the corner because it comes from a sh. From a less of an angle than that. The angle is actually narrower than most of like that category of strike that you see, which means it's that much harder to execute. And the arch. Yeah, no, it's an extraordinary goal. It's an incredible goal. It's a kind of goal that you can't really like defend against either. I don't think it's like a game breaking thing and I guess it needed that. I mean, Real Madrid were having one of those days where they were clearly the better team but were wasting chances. So you needed someone to step up and do something and he did. And again, feels very. Tried to talk about all the other stuff, but I'm a little bit disappointed in the sporting sense by Benfica. I'm not saying it's easy to go up against Real Madrid, but I do think there's more in this team. I've seen this group of players perform quite a lot better than they did in this game, but I guess that's also the sporting side about playing Real Madrid. You're playing a Real Madrid team that hasn't bumped issues up front. They have so much space. So maybe you don't feel like you want to go out and attack them because you can get done on the counter so badly. But there was this sort of inherent conservatism I thought, to Benfica, which was a little bit disappointing on the night.
- [18:43]
A
All right, that'll do for part one. Part two we will round up the other Champions League playoffs.
- [18:50]
B
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com Washingtonwise work moves fast. Every email, report and proposal counts. That's where Grammarly comes in. It's your one place to think, write and finish. Grammarly's AI agents help you find natural phrasing, fine tune tone and confidently write wherever you work. It's the premier writing tool that 93% of users trust to get more work done in a world of generic AI. Don't sound like everyone else. With Grammarly you never will. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com.
- [19:49]
A
Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. To Monaco then Monaco 2 PSG 3. And you know, Monaco took the lead after a minute and with 2 nil up after 18 minutes PSG got a penalty prefaced by a phrase we've all heard before. Vout Fast has made an error. But it was brilliantly, it was brilliantly saved from, you know, Shalia and, and at that moment. Barry, you must think PSG are in trouble here.
- [20:15]
C
Oh absolutely. I mean PSG is not a happy camp at the moment. They got beaten by Ren on Friday night in the league they're not top of the league, they're I think a point behind lawns. And after the Ren game, Usmane Dembele in a post match interview was quite critical of his teammates and made barbed remarks accusing certain unnamed individuals of putting themselves before the club. The suggestions in France are that he was talking about Desiree Dewey and Luis Enrique said dirty laundry is, is best washed within the family. He wasn't particularly impressed with Dembele telling tales outside the dressing room. I didn't know Vouchfass had gone to Monaco, I must confess. And he was put into the Champions League squad, him and Simon A Dhingra who didn't have a good time of it at Sunderland. So he, he was shipped out to Monaco. So they went into the Champions League spot and Paul Pogba was removed to make way for Vouch Fast. So now the Moishe have fallen.
- [21:29]
A
Oh wow.
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C
So Monaco went 1 nil up. Gollivan cross. 2 players completely unmarked at the far post. Foreign Baligan scored with a header and then they went two up as you say. Inside 18 minutes it's Baligan again. Plays a one two with Akliush and is put through. Lovely touch to take the ball away from Arquinos and then slots into the corner. And then we had the vouch fast show. So he received a pass under no pressure whatsoever from Faris Kilia miscontrols the ball. Fariskilia hairs away from him. Hass textbook fast running back towards his own goal here. Blowing in the wind. Dives in to retrieve the ball, doesn't get anywhere near and brings down Faras Scalia. But he got away with it because PSG missed the penalty. And then Usmane Dembele had to go off injured and he was replaced by Jazira Dewey. And then it turned into the desire due. He was just brilliant, scored two and helped create the other one. And in between that, we had a red card for Alexander Golovin, his second in two games. He got sent off at the weekend as well.
- [22:54]
A
So nasty challenge this, wasn't it?
- [22:57]
C
Oh, it was bad. Studs up one. So it wasn't. It was simultaneously a decent and bad day at the office for Monaco. They must have been hopefully winning when they went to nil up. But 32 against the reigning champions is probably not terrible. PSG have a lot of injuries at the moment and they. I think they might be paying the price for their club World cup campaign because they've had a lot of injuries this season and things aren't going particularly well for them on the domestic front or indeed the Champions League front.
- [23:34]
E
Yes, I was watching this because I was double screening and it was one of those where I was planning on watching Benfica, Real Madrid. But because Benfica were mostly doing a decent job containing Real Madrid, this game was clearly where the expected fun was higher. The XF was significantly higher on my other screens, I ended up watching it more than that. And first of all, I want to add to what about Luis Enrique's quotes after this Dembele stuff was really funny. I do enjoy the total disdain Luis Enrique has for anything that gets said in the media because he's so consistent on it. Like he has previously just said to the press at the press conference that I don't read what you write because I know much more about football than you do. I don't care.
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A
You're all idiots.
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E
I don't care. And now he was with Dembele, who said after the game he made this, what I think was meant as like a sort of bravehearty kind of speech about how we must all pull together and stuff, but only it landed quite that way. So Luis Enrique said, and I quote, the player's statements after the match are worthless, absolutely worthless. So are the coach's statements, but the player statements are worthless. I'm not going to answer any question from a player in response from a player. So he just really doesn't. Real blow to post match interviewers everywhere. Like, he's so right, isn't he? There's a lot of crap. I tell that to the Norwegian ski journalists, my friend. You never. You never quite know what comes out. You know, you gotta be there with the microphone because it can go. It can go in directions that you don't expect. So.
- [25:06]
A
But in terms of. In terms of generally, we. You Know, we. Someone says something in the heat of the moment after a game about something or other, and then, you know, I guess we are as guilty as anyone else for overanalyzing it. And Enrique probably has a point that everyone should go home for three days and then be asked what they think and it would all be. It would take longer. Like, it's not how it works, but I think you might have a point, I guess.
- [25:29]
E
Yeah, maybe. But in the game at least, I mean, it was so noticeable when Desiree Due came on, there was a complete switch in, like, the spaces PSG were finding. Because you do think when they go 2 nil down and Monaco can sit back and just kind of counter for the rest of the game, that that's kind of a tricksy position to be in. Especially when PSG their attackers, they tend to like a bit of space to run into. But Dewey was so good at, like, finding angles, finding openings. They became so much more incisive. And it became. It became a very, very watchable game. Very, very enjoyable stuff. And with the vowed fast drama, there was an angle where they showed like quite sort of close up, slow motion. The moment his sort of heavy touch departs his foot, you can just kind of see on the face going, oh, no, this is. This is human drama.
- [26:19]
C
Yeah, sorry. I. I suspect we don't have too many Monaco fans among our listenership, but I should say they also had a lot of injuries going into this game. Eric Dyer was a conspicuous absentee.
- [26:31]
A
Yes, well noted for our. The Monaco Ultras who listen to this.
- [26:35]
E
I think they were angry. I have a feeling the Ultras. I mean, I'm just on note because I wasn't even aware there were Monica Ultras, but they had some banners that seemed a little angry. All five of the Mullen Ultras are. Are upset because the team hadn't been good. Yeah, no, this is. This is courtesy of the intrepid reporter from TNT Sports and other people, Danny Jamison, tweeting that the Monaco Ultras are again protesting against the way the club is being run by boycotting the first 45 minutes of the game. Cue many, many jokes about how an Ultra boycotts at Monaco is really not noticed in the way.
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A
Isn't the right blah, blah, blah.
- [27:14]
E
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the very select group that are the Monaco Ultras, they are unhappy.
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A
Galatasarai 5, Juventus 2. Simon says, Is the UWA defense always that bad? N. And actually, like so Galatasarov scored five goals in the Champions League match for the first time in their history. Juventus concede five for the first time in the Champions League in their history. It's a brilliant win for Galatasaray. The moment for me, Niki, I think is right. They're three, two down. That is not a disaster. And then it's Kefran Turan, brother of Marcus, dribbling around his own box like half an hour and then over, over hitting a pass to Lloyd Kelly. You're like, what, what are you doing? It's like, it's like you can just see. It's like agony. And it goes on for so long. And then Galatasaraya four two up.
- [27:54]
D
I know. And I saw Kelly getting some pelters afterwards and Kelly did not have a good game. To be clear, he gets bullied by Osman a lot. But I feel pretty bad for him in that spot, to be honest with you. I mean that, that is an absolute hospital pass being sent to him in the penalty area with someone on his shoulder. Osimhen, who's really good at taking advantage of defenders in situations like that. Oh, I mean, so many self inflicted wounds. And I do think, to answer the question of is it always that bad? No, I do think this is one of those games that from the Juventus side definitely needs to be in, in context, which is that you played a game at the weekend against Inter where they actually were really, really good against Inter. I thought they were really. This is not a result I saw coming at all this Galatasaray game, because they, they were, they were really impressive to me against Inter. But they had a pretty unjust sending off just before half time in that game. They then go 21 down in the second half, come back to 22 eventually, still end up losing 3 2, despite having fought really hard on 10 men. And then they go to Gal, which is obviously not the easiest place to go and play anyway. And then in the second half they go down to 10 men again because Kabal comes on and does some stupid stuff. And I do think exhaustion at a certain point, even though Turam didn't play at the weekend. I think exhaustion for the team is certainly a part of the picture of what happens here at the end of the, of the game. You've played two really intense games in, in half a week with a player down for significant chunks of them. It adds up. But some of the decision making is, as you say, absolutely atrocious. I mean, Katherine Tuam probably the most guilty of it. Although having said that, Cabal is such a disaster after coming on, I mean, the equalizer at 2:2, he's just ball watching, gets lost. And Yilmaz behind him is literally the guy we should be watching, is the one who ends up having the shot that gets parried out to Lang. Then he gives away the free kick from which it becomes three, two, then he gets sent off. So Cabal has this.
- [29:50]
A
He has about fast, sensationally mad cameo.
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D
It's kind of one of those games. I mean, first of all, just to say, on the expected fun scale that Lars is talking about, I mean, this was off the charts. This was wildly entertaining to watch. And I think that Juventus implosion, of course, is part of it. We should say Galatestaray contributed to this too. They were flipping brilliant. Like, they were so much fun. They were so, so much fun and so ruthless.
- [30:19]
A
And Ossimon is so, like, he's so relentless, isn't he? Like, he's just, just. I'm just. You just think. I just don't you turn. If your Lloyd Kelly would go, ah, don't be on. Don't be like this today, please, Victor, this is too much for me.
- [30:33]
E
Yeah, they have a few players, Gal Tasrai, who you would say you shouldn't be in Turkey, but. But the way I want to flip this is like having actually been there now and having gone to their stadium and seen a game and sort of just kind of spent some time in the city, it must be so much fun. Like, I mean, they're being paid. They're being well paid. The Galtastrai have got resources. You're in one of the great cities in the world, and Galtastrai are such a big thing there. There's like posters everywhere. You really get the sense that these are super, super superstars. You're playing in front of massive crowds who are loud as anything, and you are like the biggest hero you can possibly be when things are going well. And I do almost wonder if this sort of extraordinary environment they have is one of the reasons why they're always so chaotic like they did. Because really, if you look at. We expect to see the Portuguese teams, one or two of them, in the knockouts of the European. Of the Europeans, they were used to. But the Gatastrai and also Beiktas and Fenerbahce do tend to get themselves knocked out before that. And really, in terms of the resources they can bring to bear the cultural footprint of the club, they should. They should be there. And if you look at the squad. Yeah, Osimhen and a number of other good players. Leroy Sana coming off the bench, you know, Icardi is hanging around there.
- [31:44]
D
Signing Icardi off the bench is something that not many teams in Europe could, could do. Yeah, I mean that's, that's really something.
- [31:50]
E
And I do think, I wonder if there's always been this thing about at home in the league. Their job is to play fun football against quite bad opponents to keep the crowd entertained. And maybe making the switch to then putting in responsible performances against good opponents in Europe has been difficult for them to do. But this was. They had so much intensity all over the pitch. Gabriel Sara in midfield was very good. He was great and he's really now giving Luke. Because there was a period when I was watching them last year where like Lucas Torera was the only adult in the room in midfield and you don't want that now. There's more of a balance there. Noah Lang seems to really found somewhere he fits like Noah Lang is one of those who's very, very talented. Possibly a bit of a knob. I mean he seems quite self like he seems to have a quite high image of himself he seems. But maybe he is a good fit for that place. I would really, I would really like it if we could get a proper run from Galatas right here now. I would like them to be the sort of the proper force in European football which I really think the club should be.
- [32:56]
D
I think I already brought it up at the time because right after I said it they got smashed five one by Entrek Frankfurt. But I was asked on like a BBC roundtable to say the surprise package for the season's Champions League. At the start of the season I did have Galatasaray down and it amused me just because I went back and looked at that because of course I was feeling pleased about it yesterday. And right before me, Steve Wilson. Wilson says Juventus is a surprise package.
- [33:20]
E
Take that Wilson.
- [33:21]
D
But I also, I really liked just going back to Osimhen quickly. Like I really liked Spalletti, how he was talking about their strikers in pre game where he was making this comparison. It was brought up in commentary last night as well. This comparison between Icardi and Osimhen saying they between them have this combination of number nine. That's brilliant. And he said that Osimhen creates the chaos and Icardi exploits the chaos. And I was watching last night thinking Osimhen really does create the chaos. He really does. That's. That's what he does in that, in that role. The way he. He launches himself at everyone and everything and. And I felt like yesterday was. Who knows, maybe they'll they'll have another game in them like this. But maybe yesterday was just the peak. Galatasaray chaos. Yesterday was. We're going to make chaos everywhere and we're going to exploit it everywhere because it was. It was a ridiculous game. It was all over the place. But when. When they were going forward, Galatasaray were just magnificent. It was so fun.
- [34:19]
C
Sort of adding to the whole Galatasaray Expendables vibe. Ilkay Gundogan was an unused sub and Gabriel Sara, who was outstanding yesterday. He had two seasons at Norwich. Yeah. So.
- [34:33]
A
Well, nothing, nothing will teach you Galatasaray.
- [34:36]
C
Atmosphere more than Caro Road to go from Norfolk to. To Istanbul. Quite the culture change.
- [34:45]
E
Also, we made jokes about how players leave Man United and suddenly everything comes together and their life becomes much better. Drake and Davison. Sanchez regrets leaving Spurs. I mean, here he is scoring goals in the Champions League knockouts, doing pistol hands, you know, having a grand time.
- [34:59]
A
Yeah, let's do the other game then. Dortmund to Atalanta, nil. And Gassi has been directly involved with 24 goals in the Champions League since the start of last season. 17 goals, 7 assists, more than any other player during that period. And I guess Lars, like, he. Not that it's necessarily the point of all footballers, right. Because we're just talking about going to Turkey. It's great. But he does look quite Premier League Garassi, like, you know, you can see him ending up somewhere and being. I can't work out how good, but, like, he's got something he puts himself about.
- [35:29]
E
He's got good physique, he's a decent finisher. I do kind of. Maybe this is the Fulcrug legacy. I do kind of see him as someone West Ham would pay a lot of money for and not figure out.
- [35:39]
A
What to do with.
- [35:41]
E
They do have this proud history. The Skamaka, Sebastian Allaire, Nicholas, Phil Krug sort of line of things. But I think, yeah, put him in a team that gets the ball into the box regularly and he will. He will get you goals. I quite sort of. I quite like this version of Dortmund. I mean, they're not as they were. They're not the Chaos team that we were just talking about. Galatasaray causing like Niko Kovacs is the opposite of that. They've been pining for something that resembles the Klopp Daze. Kovac is such. He is a real sort of stick in the mud. Like he is someone. Let's just get the basics right. Let's make sure people are well trained and know where to stand and mentally in a good place. But they're not that many points behind Bayern and, and here they are two up against that because there's a thing to be said for getting the basics right. And they are now three at the. There's three at the back. They have a lot of guys who can run. Another assist from the intrepid Norwegian wing back Julian Rierson, who's. Who kind of encapsulate this. He's not, not even when he was playing in Norway was he a superstar, but he's just a guy who's really hard working and looks after himself physically and is willing to learn. Had had four assists against Mainz at the. At the weekend. Four assists from wing back and another great cross in here. This is not the sort of. This is not Dortmund from when they were appointment viewing because they had some of the most exciting young talents in Europe and they played great football. They're not that that but they are. They're getting results and, and again, not that many points behind Bayern.
- [37:09]
A
And actually Nikki, the, the. I only saw the highlights of this game, but what stood out to me was Dortmund stopped Atalanta doing anything or Atlanta just didn't do anything. Like they had like 2p roller shots from 30 yards and that was sort of it.
- [37:23]
D
I was gonna say what, what made it to the highlights because outside of the goals there wasn't a lot. It was. Yeah, because this was my main screen game in, in the. The second part of the evening and I think I spent a lot time of it thinking I wish I had any of the other games on my main screen because it was definitely at the bottom of the expected fun charts. But I mean, I'm certain plenty of fun for Dortmund because they were in control of it from the start and never let go of it. I think the goal coming as early as it did definitely helped define the game. I think they. Exactly as. As Lars just said, their. Their identity under Kovac is this. And, and it's not their business or their responsibility to. To make an open game, especially when they've taken the lead. But. But pretty desperately disappointing stuff from Atalanta who really didn't do anything for 90 minutes. And I think for certain you look at who they had missing last night and go maybe with a decetalero on the pitch or a raspadori on the pitch, there's just someone who can make a little bit of something happen because otherwise it is just funny with the West Hamling because of course Schemacker was Starting for Atalanta. So ghosts of West Ham present, past and future, who knows? But. But yeah, I barely saw him. Barely saw anyone. It was. It was just a real. It was a real non game. It felt like it was just. Procession's the wrong word because it's not like they won 4 nil. But it was a real steady walk to a two nil win for Dortmund which is steady walk for them but not much excitement for the fans.
- [38:55]
A
Nikki, can we do a bit of Serie A? We haven't done it for ages. Inter are eight points clear at the top. Milan just behind them, have a game in hand, then Napoli three points behind them and Roma three points behind them. Juvent fifth. Atalanta in sixth. Is it panning out as you expected? Can anyone catch in trig estimate win that game there? There is the Milan derby to come as well, isn't there?
- [39:17]
D
Yeah, I think Inter beating events at the weekend definitely has made it feel like it's a lot harder to imagine Inter dropping these points now and they have got. I can't remember if it's. I can't remember if it's 13 or 14 games now that they've won all of except for the draw with Napoli. So they are on a pretty astonishing run. You need them to drop points and up till now the tradition has been, well, they were beating absolutely everyone except for their direct rivals. And so beating Juventus feels like it's a significant moment, even if the circumstances of it were outrageous. I'm sure everyone has seen by now the Kalulhu sending off for what really should have been a sending off probably for Bastani, who certainly to me it still felt like simulation, even if you can say there was some contact with Kalulhu and they're both on yellow cards. So. So a game, a game that perhaps they shouldn't have won, but because they did win it, I think it's going to make it very hard for anyone to catch them. But Milan have been very much that team who are making the most of not being in these Champions League games every week and, and just getting consistently getting results and I think they will probably finish second. I think it's going to be a very interesting competitive race for the remaining Champions League spots because Napoli, who of course have dealt with the issue of having to worry about Europe nice and early, but they are struggling with injuries and, and look like they're wobbling a tiny bit. Roma have been given a welcome shot in the arm with Danielle Marlin, who's been really, really good, really great Fit for them since coming from Aston Villa and then Juventus. I don't know what to say. It's hard for me to sit here and say with a straight face. I think they're going in a good direction after they got smashed. Five, two. But they were so good against Inter at the weekend. So there is definitely. I mean, if nothing else, Juventus are much more interesting to watch under Luciano Spalletti than they had been for a while under. Under Igor Tudor and Thiago Motta. So they've been doing some things right. And even Atalanta and Colma behind them are in the picture. So the Champions League race is very, very interesting. The title race. My hunch is that Inter we'll see how they go against Bodo. But I think. I think I could see them making an early exit from Europe as well this season. I think none of the Italian teams are going to the final this year. And then it's pretty easy to say that after two of them have got one leg out already. But I think it's not going to be like last season. And I think the Inter will get the league title they should have won last season but threw away while trying to win everything at the same time.
- [41:38]
A
Spurs fan's ears will have pricked up by the sentence. Juventus weren't looking interesting under Igor Tudor. You wrote a good piece about them and obviously he's managed a billion Italian clubs as far as I can tell that, you know, he could be the guy. He might actually not be a stupid appointment for Tottenham. Although, I mean, who knows with that?
- [41:59]
D
Yeah, I mean it's. It's one of those things. Past doesn't always predict the future on this stuff, does it? But his past is. He has been very, very consistent at showing up places and doing the job that is required in that moment. At Juventus last season he got them into the Champions League which was what they needed to do. They weren't on course for it. He got them on course for it before that. Two stops at Udine. You look at where he basically had to drag them out of relegation fight both times did it. He got Verona to a safe mid table spot despite having lost some. Some big players in the summer before he arrived. He came in pretty early in the season. That time was only like three games in Galatas. Sorry. There's a season where he comes in and. And gets them into the Champions League. Really. He's been that guy who comes in mid season, does a job and then for whatever reasons, different clubs, different circumstances either doesn't get the chance to go forward with the club or where he has generally has disappointed a bit. So his, his profile fits as someone just to get you to the end of the season and avoid relegation. I think his methods are suitably straightforward that you can implement them in mid season. I mean, it's nothing revolutionary. It's man to man, it's high press and it's very, very direct and make sure you waste no time creating those chances when you get those opportunities in transition. And I think that it's a recipe that can work and has worked a lot. I do think Tottenham's injury crisis complicates it a bit because it's such a high tempo, demanding physically approach that he has. And I think the, the formation with the wing backs, I mean, who's going to be available for them to do those roles? But I think, I think he's a perfectly serviceable choice to get you to the end of the season. I doubt he'll be their manager next season.
- [43:39]
A
Got it. All right, that'll do for part two. Part three. We'll look ahead to the one game in the Premier League tonight and do the FA cup as well.
- [43:51]
B
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise.
- [44:20]
A
Part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, Wolves, Arsenal tonight, then, a sort of sneaky Premier League kickoff. Are you nervous, Niki, or you feel partly comfortable at this stage? You did draw with Brentford, so the title race is still alive.
- [44:32]
D
Oh, God. I mean, I've never, I've never said it wasn't alive, by the way. I keep saying play City as well, by the way. Talking about what we did with the, with the Inter. No, I, I don't feel confident about any games at the moment because Arsenal just not making me feel confident with some of these performances. But I mean, it should be, it should be an easy win, shouldn't it? It certainly should on paper, yeah.
- [44:59]
A
In the FA cup. Then on Monday, the last, not the penultimate tie of the round saw Brenford win at Macclesfield. They gave a good account themselves, B, didn't they?
- [45:09]
C
They did very good account of themselves. Were very unfortunate to be beaten by an own goal from Sam Heathcott, a sort of bullet diving header at his own near post from an Aaron Hickey cross, which was unfortunate because Brentford were sending cross after cross after cross into the Macclesfield box and none of their own players could get on the end of them. So they had to rely on this unfortunate PE teacher to. To. To score their goal for them. But I was impressed with Mfield.
- [45:45]
E
They.
- [45:46]
C
They didn't have many chances. They had a couple long range efforts that weren't too far away but it was a, it wasn't a full strength Brentford team. Keen, loose, Potter, Dango, Tara, Sepp Vandenberg were. They didn't start but it was pretty strong team playing against a team of part timers from the sixth tier. So it was disappointing for Macclesfield but they have every reason to be proud of their performance and obviously made a nice few quid out of it. So. Which I presume they need and then will be well received and well spent. Hopefully.
- [46:28]
A
Yeah, perhaps not massively important to everyone but. But young Ian Rushton's has a friend who they moved back to the UK and Sam Heathcote is his, his PE teacher. Yeah. So they were like. And after the Crystal palace win there were like photos and the, you know, this guy used to play for my football team and it's his son and he was like in the WhatsApp group going, look, this is the guy. And then now this was like, this is the guy too who's got this own goal.
- [46:54]
C
But they were unfortunate actually Macclesfield because at the time of the. The goal was scored, their right back was off the pitch injured.
- [47:04]
A
Yeah.
- [47:04]
C
And John Rooney didn't have time to make a substitution. He couldn't get the sub on and Brentford attacked down that flank and that's how they got the cross in. Lewis Potter overlapped or Aaron Hickey was, I think made an underlapping run and received the ball from Keen Lewis Potter. So Macclesfield were a man down in that department. So that, that was a tad unlucky.
- [47:28]
A
Keith Andrews went into the Macclesfield dressing room afterwards and sort of gave a speech about how wonderful they all were. And I just wondered is that. And obviously everyone goes class. This is class from Keith. I just wonder if you're a Mactow player. You like, you're not Pep. You know, I feel like, you know, okay, you are, you know, you're doing a really good job this season. Or is that me being over cynical Lars?
- [47:49]
E
I feel like it depends a lot on the tone that Keith Andrews struck in that conversation, which we don't know because I've only seen video, I've not heard audio. So I'm sure he seems like a very. He seems like an empathetic. Guy. I'm sure it was fine. I want to flag up. I know the game has come and gone now, but I really enjoyed John Bruin's piece on the life and times of Macclesfield in the big paper. If you find yourself a little bit Macclesfield curious on the back of this. On the back of this game or just hearing us talk about it for three minutes, you should check that out because it was a good piece on the background and history of the club, accompanied by some nice pictures from Macclesfield. That was a good bit of football journalism there from everyone involved.
- [48:31]
A
Well done, John. And I'm probably doing Keith Andrews a massive disservice. I could just imagine some of them. I'm quite a good footballer, you know. Yeah, you're a. You know, you're doing okay, Keith. But you know, wind it in anyway. The fifth. The fifth round draw. West Ham Brenford, Newcastle. Man. City means they'll have played each other five times this season. Uh, Mansfield Arsenal is a great tie for them, isn't it? Uh, Leeds Norwich. The Johnny house and Derby Wrexham Chelsea Wolves. Liverpool Fulhams have. And then Port Vale or Bristol city versus Sunderland. There was a massive game in the championship on Monday night. Coventry top two were playing and Coventry beat Middles were 31 had you Wright hat trick. So moves them back into top spot. They hadn't won in their last three, so that's an enormous result for them. Quite an interesting situation at Blackburn Rovers. They've appointed Michael o' Neill who is the manager of Northern Ireland who have to play Italy in that playoff as their manager won their first game at QPR. I heard him being interviewed on 5Live and he was saying actually it's really. You could. You could easily do this job chair. I mean, he wouldn't say anything else, right. But he was saying it's good. A lot of coaches at international level, especially of those size, international clubs come in, do their bit, the international break and then, you know, they have to have other jobs.
- [49:43]
E
It's like Francesco Calzone. He did a job share. He did the Napoli job and the Slovakia national team at the same time. Time.
- [49:51]
D
Oh, yes.
- [49:52]
E
So he is the. He's the Northern Irish.
- [49:54]
A
I think o' Neill might have done it before. I mean, I think Michael o' Neill who's, you know, to my mind be the Northern Ireland manager for the last 50 years, you know, but I think he has sort of occasionally dipped in and out. But yeah, the. Not the top 20 pod have covered that in depth. Our friends there, you can listen to them after you finish listening to every football weekly that's ever been recorded in League One and League Two. Good wins for Cardiff and Lincoln in League One one. At the top, Lincoln eight points clear of Bolton in second place, still doing amazingly well. And in League Two, Swindon leapfrog Cambridge into second position with a 21 win at Barnett. The top two, Bromley and Cambridge both drew home games against Cheltenham, Colchester, they should have won, but we were also brilliant for some of it. And Newport and Harrogate, big wins at the bottom for them. They're just two and three points off the three teams above them. So exciting at the bottom of League two. We'll finish with this email from Simon who says Dear Max Barry and the team I' a vasectomy. During the process, the surgeon, kindly trying to keep my mind off things, asked me what football team I support. When I said I was an avid Cambridge United fan, the surgeon replied that he too followed the mighty use. Which is interesting because they're at a a hospital in in between Glasgow and Edinburgh, says both Max and the Guardian Football weekly inevitably came up in our discussion. The rest of the job in hand was completed impeccably while we discussed the pros and cons of the management of Neil Harris, as well as how much we both love your show. It's very kind of you to say so. Thanks for making a diffic much easier to bear. Please do a shout out to Ewan and his team at 4th Valley Hospital. Shout outs to those performing vasectomies United in endeavor, says Simon. Thank you Simon.
- [51:35]
C
Before before you sign off Max, could I just a if I may, Irish filmmaker named Fergus Dowd has been in touch with me and he's made a film called the Charlie o' Leary Story. From Johnny Collins Hill to the Olympic Stadium Rome, which is making its what. What is it called? Is premiering at the Dublin International Film Festival at the the lighthouse cinema on the 24th of February. I think two screenings have already sold out. There are more tickets available and he he has sent me several emails asking me to to publicize his film, which I'm happy to do because Charlie o' Leary is a legend of Irish football. A former referee, okay. Very prominent in the Dublin street leagues years and years ago. Charlie is 102 years old, still fit enough to go to Ireland home games. Listeners of a certain age will remember him as a prominent figure in Jack Charlton's backroom staff. Jack used to refer to him as the little fella. He was sort of kitman counselor, all sorts of famously. He's a very devout Catholic who got to meet the Pope when Jack Charlton and the team went to meet the Pope at the Vatican. And in when they were in rome in Italian 90. And you could see Charlie, just photos of him, just totally in awe. I haven't had time to watch this film yet, but I, I'm really looking forward to it. And as I say, lighthouse cinema on the 24th of February, that's the premiere of, I presume it will be available to see somewhere else after that.
- [53:17]
A
You can and you have. Thank you, Barry. And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Baz.
- [53:22]
C
Thank you.
- [53:22]
A
Cheers, Nikki.
- [53:23]
D
Thanks.
- [53:23]
A
Thanks, Lars.
- [53:24]
C
Thank you, Max.
- [53:25]
A
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens. This is the Guardian.
- [53:43]
B
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise.