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Celebrating 25 Years of Footballguys with Joe Bryant
00:48:41
In Episode 13 of The Launch Pad, Dave Kluge sits down with Footballguys founder Joe Bryant to talk about lessons he's learned over the last 25 years, value-based drafting, advice for up-and-coming content creators, and so much more. Order your...
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- [00:00]
A
Back to school is better with family.
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B
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Up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement eg Apple iPhone 16128 gigabyte 820099 eligible trade in eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact T Mobile while welcome to another episode of Football Guys, the Launchpad. I'm Dave Kluge and today I am joined by a very special guest, the founder of Football Guys himself, Joe Bryant. We're not going to bore you with sleepers and busts in this one. We're going to zoom out and take a 30,000 foot view. We're going to talk about the draft strategy that Joe developed back in the 1990s. We'll talk about some lessons he's learned over the last 25 years. We'll discuss the importance of community building, advice for up and coming analysts and and why you are the hero in this journey. As always, this show would not be possible without you taking the time to listen. And if you feel so inclined, please drop a review and let me know what you're thinking about this show. But without any further ado, let's dive in. Joe, Brian, welcome to the show.
- [01:20]
A
Hey, thanks buddy. How are you?
- [01:22]
B
I am doing great. This is funny, you know, we talk all the time, but I don't know how often we actually record our conversations. Joe, I kind of shared this story with you recently, but you and I did a show together years ago. I mean I'm talking five years ago before I was even at Football Guys. Yeah, before we recorded that show, I had a pint of water sitting in front of me, knocked it over onto my lap and had to record the entire show soaking wet sitting in my chair. But like a true professional, the show not and I don't think you ever even knew about that until I just.
- [01:51]
A
Recently never had a clue.
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B
I have learned since then, you know, five years and a couple thousand shows. I've got my water off to the.
- [01:57]
A
Side, cap on, straw in. Yeah, there you go.
- [02:00]
B
But you know, this is fun getting to, getting to do this with you. And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is we are releasing our magazine which pre orders that that sale just ended, but you can still get yours. We've got some copies left. But you wrote two articles in there that I really liked. One was kind of a brush up on value based drafting. The other was 25 draft day lessons learned from 25 years of football guys. And I think that's the one that I want to start off with because, you know, you're not at the point in your career where you're doing projections and hardcore analysis and things like that. You're kind of looking at big picture things. So talk me through these 25 lessons that you've learned over the last 25 years. And we don't have to go through all of them. But what were some of the ones that really kind of jumped out to you that you think fantasy football managers should be aware of?
- [02:44]
A
Sure. And that's fine, Dave. And it. And you know, you get. We have been doing this a long time when we started playing or I started playing in, in the mid-90s and we started football guys in two. So we've got, you know, we've got a few seasons under the belt. And it seems like I consistently see things that just sort of stood out to me. And I think the first one I talked, like draft players, not helmets. You have to, if you're going to be really successful at this game and you have to kind of put the emotion aside. It's like, I don't care if you're a Michigan guy and you hate Ohio State as you should. You know, there's some really good Ohio State players in case no one, in case you haven't heard that are in the league. And you got to put that, you know, aside. And that's, that's, that's just a. So I mean, you have to, you have to be as, you know, unemotional about it as you can in a game that's very emotional. That was a big one.
- [03:35]
B
And I think, you know, being a Chicago fan, I can. That it seems like every single year I was just the one that didn't care. And I would draft Aaron Rodgers and Jordy Nelson and ride that victory while everybody was reaching for the Bears players in my Chicago league. So I think the other one is respect injury trends, but don't fear them. And I think that's something that we have always had kind of a leg up on the competition.
- [03:54]
A
Yes.
- [03:55]
B
Whether it was Gene Brammel or Adam Hutchison. Now, we have always had guys that aren't looking for the clickbait injury analysis. I mean, we are looking at like data backed Injury analysis here, and I know that has been one of the biggest edges I've had over the years, is just paying attention to what we're hearing from our injury experts there. So when you say, you know, respect injury trends but don't fear them, can you just expand on that a little bit?
- [04:17]
A
Yeah, sure. Gene used to love, you know, like, that was his. That was his trigger. If you said someone was injury prone and he was like, dude, it's a, It's a violent game out there. Everyone is injury prone. And. And I think there's a ton of truth in it. Now, granted, you know, a very, you know, slight build or a person that doesn't know how to, you know, to. To take a tackle well or, you know, does kamikazes, it goes. Jumps into stuff and, and doesn't, you know, care for their body at all. Those, Those guys may be a little bit more. But by and large, it's. I just don't think. I think it's. I think it's over overused and overrated, this idea of being injury prone. So, I mean, I think Christian McCaffrey was like, he's been the poster boy for that up and down. Right. You know, he couldn't stay healthy and then he was incredible. And then everyone thinks we'll never get hurt again. And then we have last year. So it's like, it's. Yeah, I just, I really don't put much stock in that. And I think a lot of people, it's. You find sticks in people's brains, I think, Dave, when. Especially when they're burned. I mean, if you, anybody who started Christian McCaffrey in week one last year on Monday Night Football probably is feeling that right now like I am. And, and it just stings. And so I think you. We overreact sometimes to that pain and that can really cause you to just write off someone. And so, yeah, we try to throw most of that out.
- [05:44]
B
And that being said, we just had Adam Hutchinson on the show a couple of weeks ago and he said Christian McCaffrey is a player that he is AOK. Going back to the. Well with same last year was just kind of a fluky injury and he's like, you know, drafted him in the first round. I'll do it again this year.
- [05:55]
A
So I would do.
- [05:56]
B
Yeah, you know, respect the trends, but don't fear them. And that's just, you know, two of the 25 lessons that you have learned over the years. So definitely recommend checking out the magazine if you haven't ordered that yet. But you Wrote another article in here and I really like this one. It is titled One Draft Strategy to Rule Them All. And, and we talk so much about, you know, zero RB and hero, RB and zero wide receiver and late round quarterb and all these different strategies, but they are all at the end of the day derivative of value based drafting, which is something that you stumbled upon. Well, you know, I'm just going to let you take this one, Joe. Talk to me about how you came across value based drafting when you first kind of came up with this concept and just let everybody know why these strategies are all a little bit derivative of it.
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A
Yeah, it came, you know, it really, it came from fantasy baseball. That was my original fantasy sport. I started playing fantasy baseball, rotisserie baseball back in, in the 80s, late 80s. And you know, back then, and I'm, I'm just a novice baseball observer now, but back then it really came about with catchers. If you could have a catcher that could hit especially for power, they were like, you know, the magic unlock for everything because everyone had to start a catcher. And a lot of catchers are, you know, really not good hitters at all. They're in there for their defense and so they would drag a, drag a team down. But if you could have a catch or not, Gary Carter seems to come to mind there, but that's how old that is. But he would, you know, he, you could carry a team with that. And it struck me as the demand for the catchers are all the same. You know, everyone has to start 12 or 10, how many are in your league? But the supply is finite and they're just not very many good catchers. There's tons of center fielders and third baseman and left fielders that could hit back then, but like a second baseman or a catcher, if you could hit somebody, one of those guys could hit. They were fantasy gold. And, and when I started playing fantasy football, the, the same, you know, it's essentially the same concept. It's a game or all value, whether it's fantasy football players or diamonds or stocks or anything. It's supply and demand. Right. And, and so here, you know, here's the supply of each individual position or each position. The demand on them is, is what it is. It's relatively the same for all, you know, flex, flex positions can vary that sum. But if you're in a league and you have to start 12 tight ends, somebody's going to be stuck with the number 12 tight end and somebody's going to have the number one tight end. And in Some cases that delta that range between one the, you know, the best, the best starter and the worst starter can be gigantic and it can sometimes be way bigger than the range. And why it's a running back. The number one running back versus the number 24 running back may only be a difference of maybe, you know, 50 to 75 points in a tight end. The number one tight end versus the number 12 might be a hundred points or more. And so in ways, even though that, that running back will score more points overall than that tight end, the tight end is more valuable because he puts, he gains ground on the competition much further than the running back position. Well, and that's, that's really the crux of it. It's just taking that what you might, you know, you might wind up with there compared to what you could have there and seeing what that difference is. So I started writing about that in the late 90s and, and finally, you know, kind of formed it all together into an essay we called value based drafting. And it's, it's, it's been a thing ever since David. That was sort of the foundation of football, guys. That's sort of what we planted our flag with and put us out, you know, on the map with. And what I always is interesting. As you said, zero running back or hero running back or late round quarterback or elite tight end. All those, they're, those are just flavors of value based drafting. I mean they, they all can apply, you might apply each one of those yourself in any, you know, or multiple times in any one draft. Or you could independent. What like it also matters a huge amount where you're drafting. You might start off in round, you know, if you're an upper end, you may employ, you know, a hero running back strategy or if you're down at the bottom, you may go for elite tight ends. And they all can work, but they're all just different flavors of value based drafting.
- [10:11]
B
And I think the simplest way to kind of explain this is that if you look last year the top seven scorers in fantasy football were all quarterbacks. But that doesn't mean that you're taking quarterbacks in the first round of your fantasy draft because all of the quarterbacks are scoring a lot of points. And where the tight ends might be scoring a third of what the quarterbacks are, the positional scarcity pushes them up. And I could just go back to the first year I ever played fantasy football. Nine years old, and I was looking at the projected point total and I said, well, Donovan is projected a lot of Points. So I'm going to take him in the first round. And, you know, nine years old, didn't really know what I was doing at the time. And it's something now that has just become commonplace over the years that it just makes sense to us. I think now after the last 25 years that you've kind of been preaching this and other people have adopted to it, it just makes sense at an instinctual level.
- [10:55]
A
Right. We know, like with kickers, right. I mean, every kicker score a ton of points too, but no, they're not that valuable because there's so many of them. You know, you, you don't. You can wait and still get a pretty good one. The best one is not that much different from the worst one that's going to start. And that's. That's it in a nutshell. And it almost. It's one of those things. I mean, I remember thinking about it, Dave, and I was like, well, of course, that's. That just seems obvious. And I found that it just wasn't that obvious for some folks. And what for. What I was able to do is basically put a structure around it. You're actually measuring the baseline and how much better what, you know, what, what is the actual number? How much better is the best quarterback than the number 12 quarterback? And it gets hard, too, because it requires projections. You can't just say you like this guy on a cheat sheet. You have to be able to quantify how many more points you think the number one guy is going to score than the number 12 guy. And that gets difficult because projections are hard.
- [11:49]
B
Well, the nice thing is we do take the work out of you out of it. Over here at football guys, footballguys.com projections fully customizable. You sync with your league and regardless of what your scoring roster settings are, it'll give you the full projection. So as you like to say, Joe, you know, we'll do the work you do the winning. That's right here, Football Guys. But you know, I've talked about this magazine a little bit and. Well, a little bit on this show, but I've talked about this magazine a lot for anybody that subscribes to this show right here. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that, though, because next week these are going to start getting shipped out and people are going to be getting them next week. And like I said, we still do have some for sale if you're looking to order that. But talk me through the decision or not, I shouldn't say talk me through the decision. Talk the audience through the decision a little bit to bring a magazine back because now, you know, everybody is just glued to their phones all the time, and people are leaning on apps and AI and all of these fun computer features. But you wanted to throw it back a little bit with a magazine. So talk to the audience a little bit about where that decision came from.
- [12:46]
A
I think I love printed stuff, Dave, and I always have, and I love books. And Jimmy, I have a ton of physical books that I prefer. I have a Kindle too, and I like it. But it's honestly more to me for convenience when you're going on a trip and you can save some space. If I've got the space and the time, there's few things I like better than, you know, than a comfortable chair and a physical book. And when we got started in at football guys in 2000, I mean, that was that or pre Internet, basically that was the only way or the primary way that people talked about fantasy football were the magazines. You had an annual magazine that came out in the summer, and a lot of times you would have updates and maybe supplements through the year, but that was the primary way that that information was distributed. So for us, it's a throwback to kind of what really got us into it. I mean, I remember vividly, you know, it was usually July 4th was kind of the kickoff day, but Fantasy Index and Fantasy Pro Forecast and these kind of what we would think of them as the Bible, you know, would come out and be on the newsstand. You'd be checking by Barnes and Noble every day to see when they were going to hit. And it was just really fun to have that as kind of a benchmark that officially for us kind of felt like fantasy football season was underway once the magazines came out. And we knew, you know, you knew that that magazine is. Is the information is a month old at best, and. And even the earlier in the summer is even harder. You, you know, you. That's pre training camp and I mean, basically you've just got the draft done and, and. And the information's out. But the idea that you can have something physically intangible that you can hold on to, it's just different. It's really kind of hard to explain, but I think in creating also has added a ton more stress in that when you write an article tomorrow, Dave, if you have a mistake in it, we just fix it. It's no big deal. Somebody points out an error and we have a misspelled word and you fix it and it's no problem. If you have an error in this stuff, you don't get it back. So it's like the magazine puts an added layer of pressure on us. Bob Harris, who was the lead doing this, you know, he's, he's, he's been, he's a magazine veteran. He's done them for the last 30 years and he, he was reminding us of how, you know, hey, this, this is something that's out there. You don't, you don't get a second shot at this one. So it's been a ton of fun. I love. We, we switch gears a little on it. So much of the magazines that I grew up with were really, it felt almost more like the fine print of Sporting News, you know, that it was like a really densely packed ton, you know, tiny font and just everything crammed in and oftentimes, you know, kind of a newsprint type paper. We kind of flipped the, the script a little bit and went with a bigger format. It's 9 by 12, so it feels bigger. It is bigger. And, and then the pictures we picked, we just, we just went all in with a higher quality paper and big images. I mean, our game is such a beautiful game visually. And, and we, we, we paid up to get the really great stuff and it's, it, it's as pretty to look. It's as pretty as it is informative, I think. And that's, that was kind of a hard line to balance there, but I'm, I cannot wait to see it in, in, in print there. But it's, it's going to be a ton of fun. But it's, it's, you know, calling it a coffee table book is too far, but it's, it's more along that line than, than just, you know, a form sheet or a racing form that you can just get the, what you. Information you actually have to have. We tried to make it both. So I'm, I'm super excited about it.
- [16:27]
B
And I've been saying that too, that like, you know, I don't want to oversell it too much, but when I hear magazine, I think like shiny paper stapled together. Yeah, that's not what this is.
- [16:35]
A
Well, you even said, I remember you suggested maybe we don't even call it a magazine. And that's, that's it. That was a legit, legit point. But, but we wound up doing it. But yeah, you're right, it is, it's more, I think, I think con in a magazine basically undersells it a little bit. And so undersell didn't over deliver. That's what I cannot wait for people to get it in their hands.
- [16:52]
B
Yeah, so, so something, you know, obviously this magazine, it's going to have everything you need to Prep for your 2025 season. Rankings, projections, all that good stuff. We've got draft strategy articles but there's also a lot of evergreen content in there and then there's also a lot of community building content in there. Everything from, you know, stories from our audience and Joey Wright doing an article on fun team names and things of that nature. So I don't think I'm divulging anything here that you wouldn't want known, Joe. But you know, there's a lot of good fantasy football inform information out there and I think people that have been paying attention to what football guys has been doing over the last few years, we are really working hard to foster a community whether that be with the football guys bowl or some of the things that Joey Wright is doing for us and.
- [17:32]
A
Right.
- [17:32]
B
You know, growing the discord and things of that nature. Talk to me a little bit about the importance of a community, especially in this day and age where there is this loneliness epidemic. Here it seems like having a community, especially something around a similar interest like fantasy football can be very, very important.
- [17:48]
A
And it's something Dave, that I've, I've. It's become a much bigger thing for me. Probably the last 10 years is one. I've been blessed to have a good community for most of my life. And I think I underestimated how much or how, how unusual that was. Not tons of people don't have that and guys in particular seem once, you know, once we get, we become an adult that we leave school and we get into the workforce and maybe we start having a family, it's really easy to kind of isolate and lose that sense of community and friendships with other people. And I started seeing, I just would consistently hear over and over and over that people would tell me, hey, my fantasy league is what keeps my high school friends together, my college friends together. We're all spread out across the country now. But this fantasy league is, it's, you know, it's the, it's the thing that ties them all together and gives them something to bond with. Someone said, and I love the line they said that the, the league entry fee was basically just paying for entrance into the group chat for that season. And I think that's, that's like so right. And, and now you want to win. Obviously things are more fun when you win. But, but that underlying current is is it's in some ways, I mean, it's maybe sacrilege to say, but it feels like it's not even all about the football. It's about that community. It's about you and nine buddies or 11 buddies or, you know, however many in the league by having something in common. And, and, and I've seen it too. Like just amongst our staff, like, you know, demographically, you'll see people that are all over the map from music taste to political stuff to food they like to all that. They'd be radically different in a lot of things and have this one common thing of a love for football that pulls them together. And I've just seen that over and over and over. And once that kind of clicked for me and I started seeing how that was really a desire that people had. It just struck me as like, man, that's. We're going to lean into that. It's always now we had, I had the advantage of when we started the home league was the only way to play. There was no DFS or none of these big tournaments and that kind of thing out there. So that was, that was fantasy football was you and, and your, your, you know, your, your local league. And as the game has expanded when DFS came online and now, of course sports betting is such a big thing, it almost kind of. It feels like the, some people have shifted their focus from the home league to let's chase these other things. And at football, guys, we, we love those things. They're fun, but they're kind of icing on the cake. Where the home league is the foundation, that's the main course of the meal for us and that's what we're always going to lean into and, and, and, and from a business side, you know, and that was partly why, you know, we, we. I was so happy to have Joey at Wright on board is like that's essentially Joey's jobs like Joey celebrate this. I want football guys to be known as the place that celebrates the home league. And, and that's. That. That's in a nutshell. Now that may not be the, the wisest business and profitable path to take, but you know, I mean there's, there's a lot of money to be made with affiliate deals and sending people over to, you know, these other platforms. And for us that's, that's just not what we've been passionate about. I'm passionate about the local home league and helping folks have more fun doing that and, and obviously helping them win. That's that like I Say that's when it's the most fun. But even if you're not winning, how you can develop that, that kinship and camaraderie is just a big deal. So I want to lean into that. And I've just seen it. And again, you know, Covid was a big thing. I think we probably, that was a turning point for a lot of folks when we realized how maybe isolated we really are in some ways. And that kind of maybe was the impetus for really pushing hard onto it. But since then, the last five years, we've really gone all in with it.
- [21:50]
B
Now you mentioned something about the staff. You know, just the wide array of people we have on staff. I think the term that I use most often is eclectic when describing.
- [21:59]
A
That's a good way to say we have.
- [22:01]
B
And I think when you look at so many other brands, you can look at a fantasy football company and say, like everybody here, they're all data guys. So you look at another brand, hey, these are really entertaining, funny guys. And you look at another brand or hey, this is a bunch of film grinders over here, right? You have never really had a type. I think if you had to say there was a type that you hire, it might be approachable, you know, guys that are willing to mingle with people who ask questions and things of that nature. But what is it that you look for when you're hiring somebody to work at football guys? Because I can go and you know, through our entire roster of all the staffers, but you got Adam Harstadt who is doing these like deep dive dad driven think pieces. And then you've got Matt Waldman who could leave football guys and go be a scout for an NFL team if you wanted to. And then you've got Sigmund Bloom, the mayor of narrative street, who is going to lean on his knowledge and feel for the game. So all of these different people with different ways of viewing the game. What is it that you look for when you're looking to bring somebody aboard at football guys?
- [22:54]
A
That's a great question, Dave. And one, one even backing up a little further than that. Kind of the whole thought of the whole business. When, when David Dodds, my co founder and I, when we started this thing, it was a little bit unusual to do it the way we do it now. And that so many of the companies back then were kind of really one person driven. It was like one. It was like, you know, I mean, my friend John Hansen at Fantasy Guru, that was kind of John's thing. I mean he was, he was the primary voice behind it then, Ian Allen at Fantasy Index was. I mean, Ian Allen wrote almost every single word of that magazine every year. And David and I both had other things we were doing. It started off as a side project for us, and I just knew that I didn't have that option. I couldn't afford to take the time to write every single word, and neither could David. And so we went at it from now, in the early days, we did do most of it, but pretty quickly we realized we knew we needed a team, we needed a, you know, other people to help do that. And as. As we started looking at it, if I've got one, you know, if I, If I think, I think I do. One thing well in business is I'm a really good talent scout with, for people. I can see, you know, I just. For some reason. Now you're going to agree with this, I'm sure, but I can, I can see spot people, you know, maybe on the up, on the way up and see what they're doing and think if they'll be a good fit and be capable, capable and, and. And I'm good at that. And I was able to put together a team that I think basically is just, you know, does all the different things I, that my. I love Ocean's 11s and all, you know, a favorite movie of mine. And I think in some ways a lot of companies today are kind of moving towards that. There's a specialist for here. There's a person that does that, you know, and those. Those kind of things. You've got 10 or 12 different roles. They're not all the same type of people. They're not all the same skill set, but they all work together as a team, first and foremost. It's like you assume the football knowledge is there. That's a given. That's like table stakes. But then there's a ton of people that have that. So after that, it really comes to, like, honestly, the first and foremost thing, are they someone I want to hang out with? Life is too short to work with people that you don't like being around. So we have people that. That's probably job number one after the football knowledge is, are they someone that we want to hang out with? And then from there I just try to cover the bases and think about what our average viewer or reader and customer looks for and try to have enough of that. And I like a variety, like you say, you know, I love like on our projections, Moral Tremblay. Moral is a genius and is a math whiz and is very data driven. I mean he morals moral could almost do. I've never asked him to do it, but I bet he could do projections for just about anything. If I had moral sit down and do baseball or basketball, he'd probably crush it just because that's the way his mind works. He's such a numbers guy, Sigmund, as you said. Sigmund is all heart. Sigmund wants to tell the story and understand you. Leans in his knowledge of the game and, and, and is. Is a lot on, you know, the narrative stuff. And then someone like Jason Wood is kind of in between. Jason's analytical, but also likes the narrative and, and can really do, you know, sort of blend this and I think we're better served and we serve the reader and customer better when we have a variety there. We don't just pull from one type of, you know, one type of, you know, analysis coming in that we can give a better range, you know, effectively, like a stock, you know, portfolio. You're diversifying your inputs a little bit and spreading that around. But yeah, I love it. I mean, I do love the different. When I look at something that, you know, some of our developers are doing in the tech side of things and I see some of the stuff on the other side for the writing that we're doing and then the community stuff and then the, you know, the analytics, it's, it's a pretty wide range of skills and, but in total, when you put it all together, it's kind of like a gumbo, you know, it's like you've got all these different things that come together and in, in some, you know, it makes a beautiful end product and I love that about it.
- [26:55]
B
So I think, you know, I, I've been in the industry for a while now. I wouldn't consider myself green, but I'm also not, you know, a very seasoned vet. You know, I'm somewhere in between. But I've been around long enough to see a lot of new people come into the industry and I, I think I consistently see a lot of new people making the same mistakes where they really want to champion themselves. The analyst as being the hero, the one that is helping, you know, all of these people win their leagues and all that. So I, I think you probably know where I'm heading with this question, Joe, but football guys takes a little bit of a different approach here and it's something that you have really opened my eyes to over the years. So talk to me a little bit about why you think that these fantasy Analysts, especially up and comers maybe shouldn't try to champion themselves as the heroes as of the people that they're trying to serve.
- [27:37]
A
That's it. Dave heard me give this talk a hundred times, but yeah, you knew I.
- [27:42]
B
Was setting you up for this one, right?
- [27:43]
A
Yeah, I know where you're going. The, the, you know, it's. And I think this works for any business because any business in theory should be in the, the business of serving their customers. And it, it really boils to me. It, it boils down to something and lots of people written about this, Donald Miller and, and others about the hero's journey. And it's the idea that in a lot of famous movies that, you know, be it Rocky or Star wars or the Hunger Games or King Speech or any of these, they're essentially the same story. You have a hero that has a problem and that hero faces the villain and then the hero usually finds a guide. And the guide and the hero work together to devise a plan and they battle the villain. And it really is the same story, whether it's Rocky and Mick going against whoever Rocky's fighting in that movie or Luke and Yoda going against Darth Vader or, you know, Haymitch and Katniss fighting in the Hunger Games against the, you know, the, whatever that was called. The, the, the, the, the country there. And it all works out to be that, that similar story, it's engaging for the viewer, but it's also like a lot of, you know, like a lot of old time, you know, things. It's, it, it resonates because it's true. And what I find is that so many content providers want to position themselves wrongly. They position themselves as the hero and they are not the hero in this story. The customer is the hero. The content creator is the guide. So for us, we try to be Yoda in this thing and let. Realizing that our customer is Luke and we help them devise a plan to win their league. But that's, you know, that's, that's the villain in this story. And so it involves a little bit of an ego check because it, I mean, you may, I mean, Yoda's pretty cool, but Luke is really the coolest in this story and he's. It's easy to want to jump in and to want to be the hero and it's. But it's why you see like on our, the COVID of our website, my picture is not on the COVID of the website. Your picture, Dave, is not on the COVID of the front page of the Website. It's my buddy Casey, who is like, he's more of our regular customer holding the trophy. We want that, that viewer to be able to look at that website and see, oh yeah, I can be that guy. I can be that person who's going to help me win that trophy. And that's us. And so my advice to your, you know, your pointed question there. My advice to content creators is just understand your role in this. Understand the assignment that it's not about you, it's about that reader and helping them get what they want. And most, I mean, it's a little bit like value based drafting. That's obvious. I mean, we do it all the time, right? If I'm, if I'm trying to learn something, I don't want to do something better. If I want to get fit or do something there. I don't want the fitness guy to be showing off how awesome he is. I want to look to the guy that has a proven record of helping guys like me get what I want. And so it's, you know, now there are quantities. The guide has to have some things of qualities. Typically it's, they have to have some authority. They have to. You can't just take anybody and assume they're going to get you there. Yoda was a proven Jedi Knight, right? He was, he was already. He had done it before, Haymitch had won the Hunger Games before. So he had reason, Katniss had reason for, to listen to him. So, but, but you have to have some qualifications to be the guide. But if you position yourself at that guide as the guide, and you're constantly focused on bringing value to your customer, reader, viewer, and position them as the hero, you'll do so much better. And it's hard. It's an ego check. It is hard. But that's my advice is this always bring value. Bring value, bring value and then good things will happen.
- [31:36]
B
And like you said, it is hard and I think it is weird. You have to do a lot of counterintuitive things in this industry. I think some of the best advice I ever got, not, not from you, Joe, I apologize. But J.J. zachary said, Our good friend, he reached out to me a few years ago and he said something where he said, hey, Dave, you know, you're putting some good content out there. I like what you're doing. He goes, but you're falling into this trap that I see a lot of people doing where you're talking about all the times you're right. He goes, I just tell you, like, you know, Try to do this one time, talk about some of the times you're wrong and what you're able to learn from those mistakes. And like I said, it feels so counterintuitive because you think, well, well if I admit that I'm wrong here, people are going to think I'm dumb and they're not going to want to listen to me. But what ends up happening is showing that humility actually grows more trust with your audience, showing that you're willing to learn and you're willing to learn from these mistakes and you're willing to grow and adapt. And I think that that is a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with. And it's weird being in a position where you have this public facing duty and a responsibility to give people the right advice when we know that even the best people out there are going to be wrong 40, 45% of the time.
- [32:35]
A
Absolutely. Well, it's, what's the old adage is you don't have to outrun the Bear, you just have to outrun your buddy. You know, it'. You're not, you're going to miss, you just have to miss less than the other people in your league. And, and it's, I mean, what is the, you know, the best baseball players in the world are going to be unsuccessful, you know, 60 plus percent of the time when they go to the plate. And so yeah, it's it, that's a real thing. And I think you're right, there is some of that. Our thing has always been, you know, we, we, we knew when we started that the big we, we couldn't go toe to toe with an ESPN or Sporting News or you know, any of the really big companies out there that are kind of faceless. Our edge has always been we're going to be your guys. We're going to be, we're going to be, you're going to know us, we're going to have our faces out there whenever names out there and I mean, I guess another thing I tell people when they're starting, use your real name when you're, you're going to be on, on X or on social media, wherever you are, let, you know, be recognizable as a person, as a guide, as someone that, you know, they'll rely on and, and make that connection early on. And that's, you know, we, we talk. I mean my job today feels like half the time I spend. How do we not get replaced by artificial intelligence? How do we not, you know, how do we not be replaced by chat GPT and It's that kind of stuff when they feel, you know, when we establish that connection and that personality with the listener, the viewer, the reader there, that's what's going to keep them coming back to us. And, and so that's, that's just what I tell everybody. Game.
- [34:02]
B
And I think it's the little things too, just maintaining that connection. You know, we've got our, our shark pool where you're talking to these guys in our football guys forum. And those are guys that have been around for 20 plus years and still an active part of the daily conversation of what we do. So I think anybody from the outside looking in can talk about the changes over the last 25 years. It's very evident with technology and AI and different, you know, ways to play fantasy football. But I've got a different question, Joe. What do you think is still stayed the same, you know, when you started doing this 25 years ago and what we're doing now in 2025, what do you think hasn't changed and probably won't change in the future?
- [34:38]
A
That's, I love that question, Dave, because, you know, everyone talks. If you listen to some people talk about the Internet and you think they speak of it in terms as if it's some magical phenomena that changed the world, just like fundamentally. And it has done some of those things, but the reality of it is just another media channel. It's another way to distribute content. You had the printing press and then the radio and then television and then the Internet. All of those are just different ways of communicating and distributing similar content. Now, granted, it's made it instantaneous where 30 years ago it would take a day or two to get news out. I mean, today everybody in your league knew that Justin Fields hurt his toe five minutes after it happened on the practice field. And that's that, that has changed the speed of it. But the actual, the actual thing is, is no different than it was, you know, years and years ago. So what I think hasn't changed, Dave, is that still that, that you have to be able to not just relay the information, but interpret what that information means. It's not just that Fields hurt his toe, it's what does that mean for Garrett Wilson? What does that mean for these other players? What does that. Are they going to make it? You know, should they have done more to bring people behind Fields? That kind of stuff, it's, it's added in. It's not. The news has almost become a commodity now. When you have a news story comes out again back to value based drafting, because everybody has it, instantly it becomes not that valuable because it does. There's no differentiation between it. What I think has been valuable and it was the same way in 2000 as in exactly the same way it is in 2025 is taking that information and telling you, expanding on it. What does it mean? How do you apply that information? And that's really who the best. I mean, the field has been leveled for information among leads. Now it wasn't always that way. Back when I very first started, you had a real edge if you knew who the backups were and knew a little bit more when it, when information was so hard to come by. Today, you know, the, the least informed, you know, owner in your league has just about as good of information as the best because it's also plentiful. Where we, again, what we, the, the added sauce, the secret sauce for us is what can you do with that information? And, and you know, and I think you just actually have to, you know, you have to get in there, get dirty with it, get, get your hands all over it and make, you know, find out what it means, dig in a little deeper, dig harder and interpret what it means to, you know, what this news does mean. The community part, that stayed very similar. Now granted, the platforms are so much better than they now than they were years ago and most all the apps are beautiful and you get instant updates and you don't have to have anybody with a calculator calculating scores from the USA Today game script stuff anymore. But that has changed somewhat, but it's just gotten better and faster. It's still, and I say that about the field leveling. It's still though. I mean, there's a reason that the people that are really successful continue to be successful. A lot of them, they just spend more effort on it. They do more with that information than the other people in their league.
- [38:07]
B
So another question I've got for you, A lot of the people listening to the show, you know, it's not people that are just looking for the, the starts of the week or the deep sleepers or stuff like that. There are a lot of people that are aspiring to be content creators and hopefully get a job at football guys one day or launch their own successful YouTube channel, whatever it may be. So this is a question that comes up a lot on this show, but what advice would you have for somebody that's trying to get into the industry? Because I hear all the time that it's an oversaturated industry, but at the same time, I regularly see New people carving out paths for themselves and finding success. So what advice would you have for anybody who is trying to make it?
- [38:40]
A
I think two things there, Dave. I would. One, it takes a lot of self awareness. It, you have to be, you know, there's, there's a fine line between confidence and self awareness. Right? You, you, you know, anybody can, yes, anybody can do anything sort of. It's like if you're, you know, I'm, I'm not. My days of making it in the NFL are long gone. So I, I be a pro quarterback really, really badly, but it's not happening for me. I would, I would suggest people do that similar type analysis of themselves. Be honest and, and do it yourself. Talk to people that will be honest with you. Some people are fantastic at, at video. They're just naturally good on video or, or some people are better on audio than they are video. So maybe they should be only podcasting. Some people are better at writing than they are either, you know, video or audio. Some people are great at all three, but that's kind of rare. Some people are more fun. They can, they just have a natural bent towards being, you know, funny. Others are more analytic minded, analytical minded. They can dig into the data deeper. But just, I would say be true to yourself. Try to lean hard into what you think you're good at and if you don't think you're good at anything, big thing you're best at and lean into that. So kind of pick, pick your platform and that's going to dictate your platform. If you're, if you're a better writer than you are at video, you should probably lean into X and go, go hard on stuff there. If you're really good at video, YouTube is going to be your thing. If you're, if you're kind of in the middle, maybe podcasting. So find, find your platform, where, where you're going to, what you're going to do with this content. And then I would say just get out there and start making it. It's going to be bad when you first start. It's going to suck. And that's probably a good thing because not that many people are going to be listening to you or reading your stuff. You'll.
- [40:32]
B
20 people tuning into your show and you.
- [40:34]
A
That's right, that's right. It's not you. You're way more worried about it than anyone else is, I promise you. So just get out there, do the content and, and you'll get better with reps. You'll get better the first One you do is going to be terrible. The second one you do will be a little less terrible. And I saw something Mr. Beast said not too long ago. Someone asked him about, help me, you know, give me some advice. And he, I think he said his standard advice is, I'm not telling you anything until you make a hundred videos and come back after you've made a hundred videos. And invariably, if you stick with it long enough to make a hundred videos, you'll learn a lot already. And then he'll talk to you, he says, and I just believe that to be true. So get out. Right? Just don't even publish it if you don't, you know, if you're really worried about it that much. But just get out. Do the, do the work. Just do, you know, it almost can be journaling. I mean, it's, it's your, you're creating content. You're. You're putting stuff out there for the world. And then lean into that, that, that idea of what I said, how can it be valuable? How can it bring value? What might someone get from this content? And now maybe now it doesn't always have to be, you know, serious. Maybe it's not an edge on your draft. Maybe the value you're bringing is you're just funny. You can make people smile or you can make people feel good, or, you know, again, you, that's where self awareness comes in. Lean into what it is you're good at doing and then do it. So, I mean, I. What. There's a Japanese word for it, I forget. A kegi, I think, maybe. And it's like, what, what the world, you know, what you're good at and what the world needs. And then hopefully there's an overlap in between.
- [42:06]
B
There's a third one in there, too. What you can make money doing.
- [42:09]
A
And make money, that's even better. Right?
- [42:11]
B
Merge together.
- [42:11]
A
Right? That's right. And, and I would say, you know, this, I mean, this, it's, this is not. If you want to get rich, I would, I would do something else besides, you know, content for fantasy football. But it's, it's a super. There is a huge value in having stuff you put work into also be something you enjoy in, you know, anyway. So, I mean, it's like, you know, you and I both will get up today and it's work. There may be some things about it that aren't, you know, the most fun thing to do, but we're still talking about fantasy football at the end of the day. And that's, that's A pretty great thing. So, yeah, I think those three. But you know, find, find something you're good at, lean into it, be self aware of what you are good at and then figure out how you're going to turn that thing into bringing someone else some value.
- [43:00]
B
And I always hate shouting out somebody because then it feels like I'm omitting other people. But like Colton Dodgson I think is a perfect.
- [43:06]
A
Absolutely.
- [43:06]
B
He asked me months ago, you know, hey, how do I get started? And I said, well, you get started by getting started. You know, get a microphone, get a camera, start recording stuff, stuff. And within days he just fires up a YouTube channel. And I see every video that comes out. He's getting a little bit more polished. He is crushing it and he's crushing it now. Yeah. And yeah, so he was just invited to do an AMA over on our, on Reddit with our friends over at Fantasy Football. And yeah, you know, it was just as simple as, hey, what do I do? And I said, just, just, just make content. And he's been doing it now. He's getting these opportunities and I think a lot of people do have an aversion of doing that. It's scary to put your content out there. It's a vulnerable thing, putting your takes out there. But Joe, you know, we obviously know how hard you work. You're writing the newsletter every single day for football guys, you're managing the team, you know, business partnerships, all this sort of stuff. But when you're not working, what is it that you're typically doing? Like when you unplug for the day or before the morning before you plug in, or on a weekend, what do you do when you're not thinking and breathing about football guys?
- [44:02]
A
That's, yeah, that's a good one, Dave. We should maybe ask my wife on that. But yeah, it's, it's, it's. I, I love, I mean, people are always asking, when are you gonna sell, like what you need to sell football guys? And I mean now, you know, all these, you know, sportsbook betting companies and, and all this are, you know, here's the markets here and there and, and I'm just like, man, I just love doing what I'm doing. I mean, I, I, this to me, I mean it sounds cliche and corny maybe, but it, it's, it's just, I don't, I don't think of it as work so much as I just, I enjoy the team building part of it. I enjoy having a group of people that we're, we're Moving forward and accomplishing fun stuff. I enjoy coming up with the idea, hey, we should do a magazine. And then how does that actually happen? How do you make, how do you find the right people, how do you find the partners to printers and, and all that kind of stuff. So I, I just love that. Now my hobbies, if I, if I have other hobbies, I love barbecue, bar, cooking. Barbecue is probably my, my second favorite thing in the world outside of football. I, I, I mentioned earlier community. I put a ton of value on, on community stuff. I've been blessed with some, some very close friendships here in, in real life, locally and then just trying to pour into others on that. And I've realized as the old guy, you know, now there's, there's a lot of, you know, 30 and 40 year old guys that are looking towards someone 20 years down the road from them that it's not that I'm any smarter than any of them, but I've just been, I'm further down the road. I've got 20 more years on them than they have and trying to give back on some of that. And that's been a real thing for me over the years. And I find if what that does is if you liken it to farming. Farming is the time when you're out there and you're doing the work and you're not necessarily seeing all the results of it. But then at the end of the season you start seeing all this stuff come rolling in and they're the fruits of your labor. Well, that's kind of where I feel like I'm at, at a point in my life now is I'll just, I've get these things that, these good things that will just happen seemingly like out of thin air. Like how did that deal come up? How did that thing happen? And the truth of it is it was probably something that Maybe I did 15, 20 years prior to that. I was doing the quote farming back then and, and it's paying off with some, some fruit a little bit later. But yeah, I just, I, I'm a big believer in that. So those aren't the sexy hobbies I guess, but it's, it's fun to, I think, I think they're beneficial and it's, it's helped me, it's helped me in my life. And so yeah, that's, that's kind of what I'm into outside of football.
- [46:44]
B
And you know, I see it up close to like where we do of course have the, the monotonous stuff, the newsletter, every single Day. And especially in season, it's like 17 weeks of groundhog Day. Just over and over doing the same stuff. But we do get to do so many fun things. Like you said this magazine, like, this was a completely new to me industry. But seeing the inner workings of how we do this and how it all comes together, it's fun and it's exciting. So, you know, definitely a job. But this doesn't feel like a slog of a normal job. I say it all the time. I've said this to you before. Like, my worst day at football, guys, is still better than my best day in corporate America was. And I just try to keep that mindset every single day coming to work here. So obviously very thankful for the opportunity, Joe, and everything that you've done for me, being able to, you know, take a chance on me and let me get the opportunities that I have. But I wrap up with the same question here on every single episode. I gave you a little heads up beforehand. Not sure if you put thought into this one or if you're shooting off the cuff, but football related or otherwise, Joe, what is a hill that you are willing to die on?
- [47:42]
A
That's a good one. I've got a bunch. The one I'll do is, is the fantasy football commissioner are holding this whole thing together. They're the most important part of the entire fantasy football ecosystem. So be nice to your commissioner. They're the unsung heroes of this whole thing. That, that's not a hot take, but that's, that's. I think they are a segment that just doesn't get the love and appreciation that they truly deserve. So, yeah, be nice. Your commissioner. They're. They're holding this whole thing together.
- [48:12]
B
I think 51 weeks out of the year. I'd say that being a fantasy football commissioner is the most thankless job in the world. But that week, after the Scott Fishbowl drafts, I gotta say, being a live event coordinator is one of the most thankless jobs in the world.
- [48:24]
A
But that's right.
- [48:25]
B
You know, I, I'm completely with you commissioners. Very important. And on that note, our friend Kevin Murray just released a book. You can buy that on Amazon. Be sure to check that out. He wrote a book on being it's great football commissioner. Yeah, definitely, definitely check that out. Well, Joe, I want to thank you so much for the time today. It's. It's been a while. You know, we did this about five years ago, did it again today, and maybe five years from now, we'll have.
- [48:45]
A
You back on the yeah, let's don't go that long again. That's good.
- [48:48]
B
Appreciate the time, Joe. Thanks everybody who tune in and we will see you next week.
- [48:56]
A
Sam.