How John Daigle Wins His Fantasy Football Matchups | The Pretend GM Podcast

Summary

Footballguys Fantasy Football Show — Episode Summary

Podcast: Footballguys Fantasy Football Show (The Pretend GM Podcast)
Hosts: Alfredo Brown, Dave Kluge
Guest: John Daigle (Establish the Run)
Release Date: September 9, 2025
Episode Title: How John Daigle Wins His Fantasy Football Matchups

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation with John Daigle, fantasy football analyst at Establish the Run, known for his multi-faceted background, industry journey, and distinctive takes on fantasy football strategy. Through a friendly, offbeat interview, Daigle and host Alfredo Brown go far beyond typical player analysis, exploring how Daigle’s life experiences in poker, gardening, and travel have shaped a unique, process-driven fantasy perspective. The discussion is peppered with stories, notable industry figures, advice for both new and veteran players, reflections on evolving strategies, industry trends (such as the pitfalls of best ball brain), and memorable moments from Daigle’s career—including how he landed work with Troy Aikman and lived with Evan Silva during the pandemic.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Getting to Know John Daigle (03:45–08:36)

• Beyond Football:

  • Daigle’s wide-ranging hobbies: Mixology, gardening, and book clubs with seniors (“honestly, all you do is drink wine and cry”—John Daigle, 06:18).
  • Importance of making new friends and pursuing new interests, especially after major life changes: “How do you fucking make friends at like 30 to 33 years old?” (06:18)

• Philosophy on Health & Cooking:

  • Emphasizes growing his own ingredients and making things from scratch. “Get back to the roots of fruits and vegetables...truly be healthy, away from the GMOs and steroids that fuck you up.” (05:00)

2. The Fantasy Football Journey (08:36–15:51)

• Breakthrough Moments:

  • Never felt a true “aha, I’ve made it” moment—combats imposter syndrome.
  • Notable career milestones: Connection with Evan Silva (Establish the Run) and an early gig writing scouting reports for Troy Aikman. “I wrote like a 30, 35 page report, sent it to them... Two weeks later...Troy Aikman, PayPal’d you X amount. ...I hold on to this memory to this day.” (13:37)

• Industry Networking:

  • The value of behind-the-scenes work and “putting big names on the résumé,” even for little pay at first.

3. Analytical Style & Influences (17:08–25:19)

• Influence from Poker:

  • Learning “ranges of outcomes” and probabilistic thinking: “Poker definitely helped shape my mind the way it is right now.” (18:35)

• Multi-Sport, Multi-Format Perspective:

  • Experiences in DFS, sports betting, and various analysis sharpened ability to provide specific context, understanding “what game you’re playing.” (19:13–20:46)
  • Prefers the grind and nuance of week-to-week in-season matchup analysis: “Anyone can view something from three months out... It takes a certain type of brain to change your opinion and just go with the flow every single week...” (21:02)

• Industry Mentors:

  • Early influence: “Fantasy Douche” at RotoViz, plus contemporaries like J.J. Zachariason, Rich Hribar, Ben Gretch, and Evan Silva.
  • Recent influence: Drew Dinkmeyer’s focus on actionable edges—“What do I win when I win?” (24:28)

4. Strategic Evolution & Rules (26:20–30:00)

• Golden Rule:
  “You don’t get last year’s points.” (29:27)

  • Avoids chasing last year’s production; every season brings a new game and context.

• Evolution of Drafting & Analysis:

  • Started with gut feel and favorite players, transitioned to tier drafting and deeper context-driven analysis. “Now, I understand...teardrafting and when cliffs happen...look for pass-catching running backs.” (26:58–28:40)

5. Context, Bias, and Statistical Traps (30:00–36:05)

• Stat Usage & Context:

  • Warns against stats used without context and the cyclical misuse of certain stats (e.g., yards per separation, ESPN open score).
  • “There is no skeleton key here...if there is, it’s touches—but we still have to project for touches,” and avoid projecting perfect health or performance for 17 games. (30:28)

• Personal Bias:

  • Leans toward pass-catching running backs for ceiling and flexibility.

6. Upside, Consistency, Windows, and League Winners (36:05–39:21)

• Drafting for Upside:

  • “In season long, just because you have the ability to cut everyone if you need to, upside is honestly all that matters.” (36:05)
  • Emphasizes playing “in windows” (short- and medium-term); avoid projecting the whole season at once.
  • Example: Target ambiguous backfields or high-upside late-round stashes.

• Common Mistakes:

  • “Be a lot more open to risk and attacking the ambiguous situations...because especially in your home leagues, people are going with the things they have seen before, even if...certainty means nothing.” (38:37)

7. Waiver Wire & Trades (39:32–44:23)

• Waiver Wire Philosophy:

  • Writes deep, question-proof waiver wire columns: “If you’re asking me a question, that means I need to address that question in this waiver wire. ...I write as if I’m leaving you with no questions left.” (39:32)

• Trades:

  • Focuses on “win-win” trade offers and seeing trades from both roster perspectives.
  • Hates the concept of league vetoes—context makes “winning” a trade non-obvious: “Don’t try to lowball...Just go for win-wins...” (41:24)

8. Start/Sit, In-Season Management, and Admitting Mistakes (44:23–48:47)

• Studs vs. Matchups:

  • Start your studs in the first month; after enough weeks, shift to matchup-based decisions as info accumulates.

• Learning From Mistakes:

  • Detailed example string (“Mike Davis → Chase Edmonds → Alexander Mattison → Zamir White”) on learning when a player projected for a volume leap had never proven it before: “You have to just keep remembering that you already learned this lesson...” (46:57–48:47)

9. Industry Trends, Best Ball, and AI (49:08–56:49)

• Rise of Best Ball – Cautionary Take:

  • Sees a resemblance to the DFS “lottery mindset” (huge prize pools, poor odds, expensive for regulars): “I worry...it’s the same thing that happened with the poker scene...Best ball is quite literally completely useless for season long. Completely.” (54:19–56:13)
  • Best Ball “brain rot”—don’t transfer strategies or ADP religiously from best ball to redraft.

• On AI:

  • Personally using AI to streamline data research and spreadsheets (“AI allowed me to do that in mere hours.”) but concerned about its broader implications.
  • “We don’t know. ...I use AI, but I don’t know what’s next.” (51:47–52:30)
  • “People should watch Ex Machina...It’s horrifically terrifying.” (49:47)

10. Legacy & Advice (57:12–58:27)

• What Daigle Wants to Be Remembered For:
  • “Be kind and don’t burn bridges...and life will work itself out for you.” (57:12)
  • “We take our job serious, but we don’t take ourselves serious...All we’re doing is talking about football.” (58:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On His Golden Rule:
  “You don’t get last year’s points. ...We are playing a different game this year and everyone forgets that.” — John Daigle (29:27)
• On Statistical Context:
  “There is no skeleton key here. If there is, it’s touches. But we still have to project for touches...everyone forgets we already negated this stat.” (30:28–32:59)
• On Drafting for Upside:
  “Upside is honestly all that matters...We are not projecting out for 17 games. We’re trying to go week to week here, since again, we can always cut everyone and pick up new players.” (36:05)
• On Industry Lessons:
  “You just gotta—those are the easiest guys to fade now.” (Mike Davis, Edmonds, etc. lesson) — 48:33
• On Best Ball ADP:
  “Best ball ADP is quite literally completely useless for season long. Completely.” — 56:13
• On Kindness and Relationships:
  “Be kind and do not burn bridges, and life will work itself out for you.” (57:12–58:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:45–08:36: Offbeat interests (gardening, book club), approach to health & cooking
• 08:36–15:51: The “aha moment,” breaking into the industry, Troy Aikman story
• 17:08–18:45: Poker’s influence on fantasy football process
• 19:13–20:46: Benefits/drawbacks of covering multiple formats (DFS, betting, best ball)
• 21:02–22:04: Why Daigle loves week-to-week analysis
• 24:28: Impact of industry mentors (Dinkmeyer’s advice: “What do I win when I win?”)
• 29:27: “You don’t get last year’s points.”
• 36:05–39:21: Drafting for upside, attacking ambiguity, playing “in windows”
• 41:24–44:23: Trade philosophy, anti-veto stance
• 46:57–48:47: Learning from mistakes—case study string on RBs who failed to handle expanded roles
• 51:47–52:30: On using and fearing AI
• 54:19–56:49: Critiques on the current trajectory of best ball
• 57:12–58:03: The legacy Daigle wants to leave: kindness and connection

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Lightning Round & Fun Nuggets

• Living with Evan Silva: Pandemic “marriage,” resulting in a “need for space” after a year together. (59:50–62:49)
• Best dish cooked: Sweet potato gnocchi with sage & brown butter; can also smoke ribs “with the best of them.” (62:56)
• Cooking skills: Learned after a “quarter-life crisis” move to Australia, living with three chef roommates.
• Waffles or pancakes?: Waffles, but still cherishes an epic berry pancakes memory in Australia. (68:48)
• Wrestling fandom: Longtime wrestling observer; prefers Omega in Omega/Okada matches. (65:35)
• Korean bakery challenge: Taking up the recommendation, despite uncertainty about ordering a “dongle.” (70:08)

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Final Words

John Daigle’s approach emphasizes humility, adaptability, and process—a continuous willingness to learn, provide context, adapt quickly, and find joy in both the grind and the human side of fantasy football. His journey offers inspiration for hobbyists and aspiring analysts alike. His most enduring advice: Don’t chase last year’s stats, seek context in all things, be kind, and never stop adapting—on the field, in your career, and in life.

Transcript

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[John Daigle]

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[Alfredo]

On today's episode of the Pretend GM podcast, I spoke with John Daigle of Establish the Run. He talked to me about the biggest mistake that fantasy managers are making year after year. Why best ball strategies and best ball brain doesn't really work for season long football. And then how his fantasy football strategy has changed dramatically throughout the years. Just like you and me, John Daigle is a pretend gm. Yo, what's up man?

[John Daigle]

Hello. Hello.

[Alfredo]

How you doing?

[John Daigle]

Doing well. How are you doing?

[Alfredo]

I'm good, man. I'm good. This is, I'm excited because I have not really gotten to know you like outside of a really quick like 30 second hey, where's the door Conversation. Yeah, yeah, man. This is, this is cool. I'm like, you're, you're episode five of this podcast that I'm doing. So I'm, I'm excited to have you on. You're a name that I see all the time and a voice I hear to get to know you and learn from you is going to be an experience.

[John Daigle]

How have they been going so far?

[Alfredo]

Just awful. I'm just kidding. It's been good. It's been good. Like it's been, it's been cool to see like different perspectives. Like first episode of Sigmund Bloom where it's like 45 minutes of that episode is going to be talking about philosophy of life, right? And then later it's like Jake Seeley where it's like we're going to break off and talk about video games and movies for a little bit. Then Heath Cummings and I'm talking about like smoking meats and basketball and stuff. Like it's, it's all over the place. But it kind of all centralizes around, you know, like, what we're doing. I wanted to do something different with this pod and try to teach and like, get behind the scenes, so to speak. Not like how to get into the industry, but like, actually I just had to be better at the game instead of like, here are a bunch of answers and sleepers and stuff like that.

[John Daigle]

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I hate talking about sleepers. That's okay.

[Alfredo]

It just, it does get monotonous. Like, we, we do this all the time. There's only so many times you can hit the same topic for an episode. I will say I did a little bit of research on, on you, sir, and I have seen you make a killer mango jalapeno margarita. Is this, is this correct? Is this factually correct?

[John Daigle]

So I saw you put that note and I was going to ask how long ago was the mango jalapeno margarita? Because I do make a lot of, I make a ton of different things. I love cocktails. I even, I haven't had my own garden for the herbs I put in cocktails. Like I grow lavender for. To make lavender. Simple syrup, for example, but so cool. But I don't like, I cannot remember the mango jalapeno one. I can make it but for margaritas. Yes. Spicy. But, but really I think what I have done on shows, just live on shows, is the, my variations of martinis more than anything because I've done like, I've shown like a, a hot and dirty, which is a jalapeno brine and olive brine. And also like you can use pepperoncini brine as well from the jars. So yeah, I think I'm more known for the, the weird martini combinations. But again, I can make a jalapeno spicy margarita. Yeah.

[Alfredo]

Did you like a whole mixologist? I don't even. This is so you, on top of that, you also have your own garden, which I need to know, like, what's in that? You said you have lavender. My wife is big into gardening.

[John Daigle]

Yeah.

[Alfredo]

So these are things I want to pass on to her. What else you have.

[John Daigle]

So whenever you begin gardening, you then have to quickly learn about they have better terms for this. So basically, who is the friends and enemies of these plants that they can't be around? And so, but you quickly learned that like tomato goes with everything. Plus, that was kind of the whole point to my garden. One, I, I, I lived in LA for five years and so my dream was to always like be part of one of the community Gardens out in Santa Monica, much more like, high commodity out there. Like, you have to earn a spot in or pay your way in. Whereas, like, now I'm in Chicago Wicker Park. And so there are several community gardens that are just kind of untouched. And so I'm in one that's, like, just 13 plots. Plus, like, if I grew them on my patio, it's not enough room. And so I have a giant plot just, like, literally two blocks away. I walk to and from every morning and evening. Even, like, on the way to the bus stop. I'll stop by just to check in on everything. But I began with tomatoes just because I like to make my own sauce, because, like, I have a pasta roller, and I love pasta from scratch. I love cooking, by the way. So, yeah, that's kind of the basis of it. I was like, all right. Like, anytime someone asks, like, how do you get healthy? I don't think about fitness or dieting or routine. Like, I genuinely think it just always goes back to getting as close to the roots as possible. Like, just get back to the roots of fruits and vegetables and just. You need to get as close to the growth of everything as possible to truly be healthy and away from, like, the GMOs and the steroids that really fuck you up. And so, yeah, I kind of just grow everything between all the herbs. I talked about basil as well. Rosemary's out there. Watermelon seeds are coming in. Squash, tomato, things like that.

[Alfredo]

That's awesome. My. So my wife works for a health and wellness company, so, like, everything in our kitchen is either we try to grow it or get it from, you know, like, the proper resources. Right. So it's like, everything, like, food coloring out the door at our house, stuff like that. Like, she has been dying to put a garden our. We just moved into a new home, so she's been dying to put a new garden out there. We almost moved to a new community where it is actually just a shared garden community where they only have, like, a certain amount of houses, and there's a big garden that everyone can go and, like, shop from, so to speak. And, like, that's your own private garden for everyone. And it was just a super cool concept. It just. The houses were in our style, but, like, that's how I feel. Like, you and my wife would hit this off. So. So.

[John Daigle]

Well, yeah, sure. I. I do. I also have a. Speaking of me getting along with women my age or older, I. I also am part of, like, a book club. I'm in a couple book clubs, but I'm in a book club that's like all 65 year old women and spicy books. It's. It. It is. Well, everyone picks. You're not necessarily supposed to pick spicy books. They pick a lot of spicy books. But I really just do it because it's like I was doing it when I first started therapy like four or five years ago now, but. And like I was kind of after a breakup, I was left in my own in Chicago and so I had to like, find friends. I was like, I. How do you. How do you fucking make friends at like 30 to 33 years old? Like, I don't. I genuinely don't know how. So I just got on like all these Reddits and group sites. Like I rec. Leagues and groups are really big in Chicago. So I just started going out to all these things and I held onto a couple of them along the way. And one of them is like this spicy older book club where it's just like me and seven other women and we're. Honestly, all you do is drink wine and cry. Like that's what we do, honestly. So lots of European books as well. Like, I think this, this month was. Have you heard of Giovanni's Room?

[Alfredo]

I have not, but I guarantee it's on my list.

[John Daigle]

Yeah, there's no reason for you to hear about it. It's like, it's literally about. It's kind of cool because it's based in Paris and it's about like the. The nightlife scene in Paris. And I just, I'm obsessed, obviously, but cocktails and like nightlife scene. And it's honestly just about a solo traveler, which is also me, who sticks around in a Parisian bar like a little too long and falls in love with the male bartender. And so it's about them like, hitting it off in the Paris nightlife when this guy was really just kind of wandering the world of his own, which again, is kind of my life. So. Yeah, yeah, that's what we're reading right now. But I wouldn't have read it genuinely if I did not know these 60 year old women.

[Alfredo]

Dude, that's such a.

[John Daigle]

And that's what happens around football. That's literally what I do around football.

[Alfredo]

Right? No. And like, honestly, that's why I wanted to do this. Like, do something that's more than just football, because I feel like if I bring you on and we're just like, all right, man, give me your top sleepers. Like, I never actually get to know you and never get to like, figure out how your brain works. And neither does the audience, really. You just get in the list of stuff.

[John Daigle]

And this is the, this is your equivalent of Conan Needs a friend.

[Alfredo]

Yeah. Yes.

[John Daigle]

Which I, I appreciate.

[Alfredo]

Exactly, man. Well, John Daigle, you have been in this industry for quite some time now. And like, you've been. I mean, just from the Twitter bio alone, the research didn't go that far, but you had established the run right now previously at NBC, Emmy and FSWA award winner, which is just impressive in itself. I have zero awards unless we count 8th grade soccer.

[John Daigle]

But.

[Alfredo]

But, dude, just your fantasy journey. It started so, so much longer before that. You've been through so many different stops. What's the moment? I think everyone has that kind of aha moment. You're like, oh, I'm actually kind of good at this. I could do this and make us currency and make a living out of this.

[John Daigle]

What's funny when you ask that question is, and maybe this is why I am viewed by others as, quote, being good at this is because I genuinely don't feel that way at all. I, I wake up every morning and question one, am I good at this? Let's start there. And so that's probably where the vibe comes from, is to. And at least in my head, get good at this. But two, I also asked, does anyone care? Does anyone recognize what I'm doing? And so I appreciate the, the compliment and asking me this question, but I, I honestly don't know if I've had it just yet. I will say the time when I realized people at least respected what I do is this is a, this is a long time ago, but I've gone, I've done a lot behind the scenes coming into this industry. I didn't really, quote, unquote, make it until I was 30 years old, 29 years old. Whenever Silva, Evan Silva of Establish Run reached out to me through Twitter and I, I had never talked to him before, but by that time I was riding all over. I helped start up Fantasy Labs, which initially got, which eventually got acquired by the churning group. And I was working the NFL News side only with Adam Levitan, which is how we first met. When, before I was at Ro World and when he was there and DraftKings commercials and DraftKings in general, DFS had just started exploding. And he latched onto that intelligently and started expanding his brand and himself. But the initial Twitter, the tweet from Evan Silva, the dm was one, call me and two, his number. And so anyone who came up and like, had initially began reading Evan Silva who was basically my mentor. Like, if you get that message one, it's not expected. It's like 3pm in LA at that time. But it was very, very, very shocking. Did not expect it at all. Now I hope he never messaged me, but back then it was kind of cool. And so I literally just called him and we talked for 30 minutes about like, my plans and life and what I'm trying to do. And by that time I had just again, done so, so, so, so, so many things. So I think one the, the obvious answer is Evan Silver reaching out to me and be like, okay, I can help you because you're working hard and I see you're just doing it wrong. So let me put you on the right track. I think really, though the other one way before that was I had previously helped someone out with a Dallas Cowboys blog and I was getting paid, like just pennies under the table. Like I could walk out and afford a meal that was good. So I didn't mind at all. It was really just to start putting big names on my resume. And what happened eventually is couple years later as I'm doing this and I'm trying out new things too. I produced at one point, no one even probably remembers this, but I produced at one point the Monday Morning Quarterback podcast under Peter King's website. But that podcast had Andy Benoit, Robert Ma, Robert Ma, who's a friend, and, and Robert Klempco at the time, and I was their producer. I've done just so many things for free behind the scenes in the past. Just trying to meet more people and have them, like, understand what I do. Andy Manoid also is someone who, like, we recognize each other at the combine every year and have some good conversations. I believe he still works with the rams under Sean McFay behind the scenes, but, but the story is long story longer. The person who ran the Cowboys blog eventually got hired to help Troy Aikman, like, be his underwriter and get and give Troy Aikman notes for. For at the time, ESPN football games and then es. Oh no, FOX football games. And Fox then got the draft. They. They paid for the rights for the NFL draft for the first time ever. And so Aikman now was in charge of talking about AFC teams. And he had never done that since Fox only did nfc. And so this one guy then said, hey, I can't do that since I'm helping you write notes for the nfc, but I think I know a guy who can. So he sent me Troy Aikman's email and phone number and like he looped us together and be like, hey, John, can help you out. What do you need? Aikman sent an email back saying, I just need like, you know, three to five pages on every team, how they got here, like their draft history, what they did last year. I just need to, I need to know what they're doing. I said, I, I got you. I wrote like a 30, 35 page report, sent it to them. Didn't expect anything, just thought, okay, as I'm building this free resume and just meeting people now, I can always say, hey, I worked with Troyman at one point. That's all I need. But actually, actually, what happened, like two weeks later, I still have this screenshot. And mind you, this is. I'm like 23, 24 years old, so this is huge. But I have this screenshot where out of nowhere it just says, Troy Eggman, PayPal, you X amount. And it was amount that. Especially at the time when I'm just like grinding poker tables because that's kind of how I came up. After college, I didn't want a real job and so I just worked in. I just did fantasy football at SB Nation part time while also playing professional poker, going to like a casinos in Oklahoma since I was living in Texas then. And yeah, Troyman just like had sent me a. What I believe was far too nice of an amount. And it's just cool to see that Troyman paid you. So I think that's the time when I realized, okay, at least someone is respecting my work. And then of course, I'm watching the draft and he did use a lot of the notes that year. So yeah, I think that's the time.

[Alfredo]

Dude, that's okay. 1. That's the best answer I've gotten from this question so far. Like, everyone always talks about maybe a DM they got or, or an opportunity they got to be on a show or write an article. Troy Amman, like, sending you a PayPal, it's just like, hey, bud, thank. Thanks for this information. That's the, that's the coolest thing I've heard from this so far.

[John Daigle]

And by the way, Troyman, just to let you know, would not remember me. And which is also why I never, if you see celebrities or whatever, football players, outside of interviewing them, I don't even say hi because they say hi to everyone. They don't care about Plebe John Daigle. It doesn't matter to me at all. It's just cool to see them. Troyman would not remember me. I obviously hold on to this memory to this day, like, if I message, if I text Chris Sims, he 100% would text back. Aikman would just block my number. So it's never going to happen. But I am going to keep his number for my own sake. Just to say this is cool.

[Alfredo]

Honestly, it's same. It feels like it's cool to think of the shared experience. So I started out, actually right after college. I was an intern at a sports radio station where I got to be a producer behind the scenes. That was my first job coming out of college, becoming the. The producer over there. And because of that, I got to go out to a lunch with the host and Dan Marino. And we went and had lunch. It was like a whole conversation, cool thing. And never really heard from her. Saw him again. I think it was maybe like six or seven years later and I see Dan Marino out like the pharmacy. My wife's like, go talk to him. I bet he remembers you. I'm like, absolutely not. I'm not going to go. But like, that man's just living his life. But it's, it's. You just hold on to those experiences because they're, they're just like, they're. Oh, they're gonna be a core memory.

[John Daigle]

That stays Steve forever now if it's someone I recognize and I truly, truly just like, appreciate them or what they did for a time in my life. The two most memorable people most recently are so CM Punk runs on my trail that I run on in Chicago. The 606 usually has a hoodie on, but like, if you watch wrestling, you know, the tattoos and everything. And so one time we were like walking at the same time and like awkwardly passing since I was a fast walker. And I literally just quickly glanced at him, said, hey, respect your work. And I kept on moving. That's it. I don't need, I don't need you to respond to me. I don't need to say hi, just hey, love what you do. I'm on my way. You're too busy to talk to me? Yeah. And the other one was Sean Marion. I passed at a Cubs game and I dapped him up. Because I'm from Dallas, I don't hold on to many of my teams anymore. My sports passions haven't worked in every industry for so long that now it's kind of gotten blurred out. And I cheer for all grown ass men to, to get paid and feed their families now. So I don't really root for my teams anymore. But the 2010, 2011 Mavericks, I can still name the Whole roster. They. They are so, so, so, so, so close to my heart, including Tyson Chandler and Dirk Nowitzki. So I know Sean Marion and I literally just told him, hey, thank you for everything. It literally, like, shaped the way I view sports in general.

[Alfredo]

That's awesome. That's so cool. Yeah, I think every sports fan kind of feels the same. There's always that one team or a handful of players.

[John Daigle]

One team or one player.

[Alfredo]

Yeah. Ever. Like, for me, it's going to be the Dolphins and Ricky Williams. Like, watching him growing up, like, that was. That was awesome. So you mentioned you not only all these things behind the scenes, but you mentioned the poker stuff. And like, that makes me kind of wonder, did that. Does that have a big influence on. And does it shape the way maybe you play fantasy today? Or is there something else from your background that shapes the way you look at this game?

[John Daigle]

The way you play definitely shapes the way I analyze fantasy football and understanding ranges of outcomes. And this is something I'm still getting, trying to get better at every year. I still make many, many mistakes. Last year, for example, I got Saquon Barkley. It's actually, I oddly thought it was great. And there's. There's tape of this, thought it was great to draft Saquon Barkley in the third round, but stupidly said the second round was way too expensive. I don't know how I came to that conclusion to be right and wrong, but I was right and wrong in Saquon Barkley last year. And lad McConkey, I was wrong on him for redraft leagues. And so it's just then I have to go back to the seller and be like, what did I do wrong here? Lad McConkey was simply just overanalyzing. So now I try not to do that even more with rookie prospects. Hey, this guy only played the slot. Can he play out wide? Maybe I should have just said lad McConkey is a baller. Sometimes it's literally that simple to be a meme and just say, this guy is good at football. So, yeah, I'm slowly getting better at everything. And I think poker definitely early on and the early stages of DFS playing it even before, like the big boom on DraftKings. I think it definitely helped shape my mind the way it is right now.

[Alfredo]

Well, another thing I've noticed, aside from all the stuff you've done, maybe prior to fantasy football, is that you're kind of everywhere.

[John Daigle]

You.

[Alfredo]

I mean, I've seen. You're doing. You've done betting, you've Done dfs, you've talked rookies for the NFL draft, just regular NFL football, fantasy football. I know that they're all a little bit different, but I know there's also enough crossover. So have you found that there's an advantage to looking at so many different facets of the game when it comes to maybe fantasy football in particular?

[John Daigle]

Well, everything we do, it all trickles down in some kind of way. It's just a matter of changing the context to both your subject and the audience you're speaking to and then also zooming out and asking yourself what game are you playing? For example, DFS especially like come to Sunday morning and I'm changing up lineups. It's harder. Like the more work you do because you do all this work, you have all the matchups ready to go for season long leagues and betting and then now you're in dfs. And really the whole point as well, everyone's playing it that way. So I actually have to go against my own analysis and be like, what if this happens though? And so it's, it's a lot of zooming out. It's honestly too much. My, my brain shouldn't try to do this and I think that's why a lot of people don't do it because it's probably best to stay in one lane and be very good at something. But it probably, it goes back, I think to just how I came up in the industry was doing everything and wearing many hats, including editing audio and video, which I'll still do on my own Twitter clips from time to time. No one at ETR cuts that up for me. I just kind of edit everything myself and I don't mind it because I have that skill. So I like wearing a lot of hats. But again, it's just a matter of always zooming out and then understanding what you're talking about, which I feel like I do a good job at at least with, with some things. But betting also, it can be completely different than what I'm explaining in terms of matchup wise. So yeah, every single subject, you just have to always remember to provide the correct context to that subject.

[Alfredo]

Do you have a favorite that you gravitate to like the most out of all of it?

[John Daigle]

I actually do enjoy week to week matchups and the matchups I write at establish the run and just analyzing season long stuff because the as we're talking now, it's the game of strategic drafting and that anyone can do that honestly like view and create something and view something from three months out and Carry it over for three months. But I think it takes a certain type of brain to change your opinion and just go with the flow every single week and have a different opinion every single week. The more information we receive. And I love that. I love being grinding. I love being in the weeds. It makes the time go by faster. Ask me if the time is still going fast at Christmas. Whenever there's like, you know, Friday and Saturday games, I'm probably going to complain and not say that. But yeah, I actually do love the, the week to week grind. But I also think it's because as someone who like naturally gravitates towards contrarianism, you look around and not many people do the week to week grind. People are talking about their best ball teams in December and like, what matters less than your best ball team in December? Like, who cares? You literally can't change anything. So why do I care about your best ball team at all? Whereas there's week to week games to play here. So the fact that less people do it because it is a lot of work I think is what, why I'm so attracted to still being in those weeds and in the, the trenches of warfare. At least our nerdy warfare.

[Alfredo]

Oh, I mean the best. You mentioned the best ball and best ball is almost kind of like just being a gm. You've picked your players and that's it. You kind of just like, let's see how the team does with, with fantasy, even dfs, like to an extent, like you're, you're GM and coach, you're having to make sure you, you have a different approach every single week and sustain in the weeds. Like I, yeah, I get that 100. And you mentioned earlier meeting a celebrity like Sean Marion, right? Like changes the way you watched basketball and enjoyed the sport. Has there been someone along the way? I'm sure with, you know, with your history and all different places you've been, the people you record with or work with, that has made you change the way you think about the game. I know, I'm sure there's a lot of people that are great inspirations, but who has really challenged the way you think about the game?

[John Daigle]

Gosh, everyone I come across, honestly, it started with Fantasy Douche at Rotoviz, which I know a lot of people don't know, but there was a time that the CEO of RotoViz, way back in the day had guys like who everyone knows now. J.J. zacharison, Rich Rebar, Ben Gretsch, Sean Siegel, the list goes on. And he would write email threads about how to write and how to think about fantasy football. And even, even, even in, like, how he explained to appropriately use EM dashes, he would always make it philosophical and you'd learn something completely new from it. Not just how to use proper grammar, but also just how to, like, view players and communicate your views better. I actually stole and I kept some of the threads long ago. I think it was Gretch or Rich that finally found one from way back in the day and sent it to me. So I still have it archived in my own personal email because it's just cool to go back and look at that stuff. So I think it all started with Fancy Douche. And then as we go along, you know, we all read the same people and they all teach us different things, then you kind of find your voice along the way. So J.J. rich, all these Evan Silva, of course, all these guys who are now like, I consider my very good friends, if not best friends. They, they, they also shape the way I view and analyze the game. I think the most recent one is Drew Dinkm, who pretty much runs the NBA and DFS product with Mike Leone at etr. But Dink is really the, the brains of it in that he takes the analysis, he can listen to it all. But the best. Again, just ignore 99% of it and then ask, what do I win when I win? Like, how can I actually get an edge on this field despite the fact that I think their views are correct? But. But I need to turn their views against them. And so that's the way I kind of look at everything now. Dink. Dink has taught me a lot and I still learn from him all the time. I think that's the most recent name.

[Alfredo]

You, you mentioned a lot of really smart names in that, in that bunch. I know for me, like, one of the guys that was huge, and I can't wait to have him on the show was J.J. zachary. When I, when I, I started just pod, I was a late bloomer in the fantasy field, so to speak. Like, I started doing this at 31 and started doing the podcast, reached out to JJ he was so gracious to come on, and then he had me go on his podcast. And it's just like, there, there are people that you meet in this industry that just changed the way not only you're going to pursue fantasy football, but just the way you think about this game. That's. I, I can't imagine what's like having that many just smart people around you. That's not a knock on the people that are around me. I love you guys.

[John Daigle]

Riches. And he'll tell you the same thing. He's literally like an older brother to me now. We're so close. I'm close with his family. We've done, like, family vacations in the past where it's just his family and me. Like, I'm the will among everyone. But. But having said that, and I think everyone will now hear this when I talk. Not that it's nearly the same. Rich is still the very best at at analyzing numbers and what he does. But when I was coming up, the first time I heard Rich talk, I thought that's how I want to speak when I'm on podcast. No empty words. Especially when it comes to in season. And we have 45 minutes. Like, right now, it's July. We're getting to know each other. This is again, the equivalent of Conan needs a friend. It's Alfredo needs a friend. And so. But when you're. But in the. In season, yeah, there is no empty space. You got to always, like, explain your point and communicate that. And Rich, to me, always does that. No empty space, no empty words. He tells you exactly what he believes and why he believes it. And that's the way I analyze fantasy football as well.

[Alfredo]

Now, you mentioned how you. That's how you analyze fantasy football. Now, you sort of earlier mentioned sometimes you just pick the good players, and I think there's sort of a purity. You should. Right. Like, yeah, good players, good teams. Who knew that's the. That's the cheat code. But I think there's almost a purity as to how we approach this game when we first start playing versus where we are 5, 10, 20 years later, and we start to look at it in so many different ways. You grow, you change. If you could rewind to the very first time you start playing fantasy football, what's the biggest difference between how that version of John Daigle looked at the game versus. Versus this version.

[John Daigle]

What was even the first players I had, Priest Holmes was definitely one of them because I love. I love the way he strafed over the sideline when he scored a touchdown for the Chiefs. But. And also back then, remember, we were using. Showing up on Monday with a newspaper as a commissioner, like, in my junior high or high school, the principal was in our first fantasy football league as well. He didn't pay his $10 either. And I still know that man. He still owes us money. But I would literally show up with a newspaper. And this is what a lot of people tell back in the day, too. The stories they Tell you then manually charted the points and on a notepad, you just passed it around in between classes in the hallway for everyone to confirm their points that it looks correct. Now, obviously the game has changed a lot. So what did I do then, that I do now? What I do now is definitely a lot more complex and a lot more intelligent than what I did in the past. I don't think there was anything intelligent what I was doing in the past. Honestly, those first couple of years, it was more gravitating towards players we thought were explosive and players I liked. But now I understand, as a lot of people do teardrafting and when cliffs happen, whenever running backs start drying up to then pretty much look for pass catching running backs to instead look at players who did really, really well and ask yourself why they did so well and make sure that wasn't a fluke. There are lots of players like that this year, but that's kind of the first things I do whenever I, I come into fantasy football now. I begin the year looking at, okay, who was, who had a great year with everything going right and still didn't change the game at all. And that's this year. By the way, it's Jared Goff, like to be the QB 9 in points per game and have career highs. You didn't make an impact whatsoever. I can, I can find your replacement easily. And fantasy football, what we do. So, yeah, I think that's what I begin looking at. Whereas in the past, gosh, what did I look at? I think I just read like Andy Barrons and Matthew Barry, honestly. Who, who. So, yeah, it's gotten a lot more complex than back then.

[Alfredo]

You mentioned in, in that discussion there, like talking about how you approach drafts now, right. And where it's like, oh, maybe there's a part here where running back falls off. Let me shift my, my focus. And the way I'm strategically doing this. If I had to get a quote from you, let's say this is going to be the quote for the thumbnail, right. Of this YouTube episode. Does John Daigle have a sort of golden rule of fantasy football that you like to live by?

[John Daigle]

The one line I use most often when talking to people is you don't get last year's points. And so let's just put that on the thumbnail because that's, that's the rule of fantasy football. Even though everyone starts with that, you do not get last year's points. We are playing a different game this year and everyone forgets that. So that's pretty much my golden rule is, is again, that actually speaks to what I just talked about is making sure that I'm not chasing last year or asking myself, why did this happen last year? So, yeah, you're not, you're not getting those points. They don't carry over unless you're in a, you know, a last year league.

[Alfredo]

So people love to do that, right? They love to think of how things went last year. On top of that, they'll even look at the greater data points, even just concepts sometimes that people misconstrue or they maybe give it too much weight going into the new season. What is one concept or data point that you find that fantasy analysts or even just fantasy managers maybe tend to misunderstand or overrate when they're looking at their teams?

[John Daigle]

I think we all notice when stats are used inappropriately and all it really comes down to. I'm not sure there's anything that's really misunderstood or overrated, but a lot of stats are used without context and explaining. And that's, that's pretty much when I look up and I see something, I'm like, that's not correct. Just because also you need to add more to that. That's. That's the one thing. There is no skeleton key here. If there is a skeleton key, it's touches. But we still have to project for touches. And then also we make mistakes a lot of the time. A lot of people do in thinking you're going to get those touches for 17 games when tennis, football is just a game of windows. Like you're playing this thing three or four weeks at a time, which is why the waiver wire and everything is so important. So no, I, I don't know if there's anything that really people misunderstand or overrate. I really just think it's about. You have to make sure you always use context to the stat you're using. If there is like a, a bad stat. You're asking me? We tend to. So wrestling. Not to always bring it back to wrestling and CM Punk, but I don't mind. But the golden rule of wrestling, everyone knows, like in storylines you can't come back until seven years later. You cannot use the same storyline. You have to wait seven years. That's the unwritten rule. Seven years. And so it does seem like we're in a cycle, but it's more like a three to four year cycle where everyone forgets that we already negated this stat. Like we shunned it and said this. Actually, it doesn't matter at all for what we're doing. So why would we even talk about it? This year it's ESPN open score. Like, we've already done this with yards per separation, we with NFL next gen stats where we said, yeah, I mean, you can cite it if you want, but it literally doesn't matter for fantasy football whatsoever. Like, we've run the R squared, we've done everything. It does not serve a purpose. And that's all ESPN open score is the same thing. And yet people are still using it. It's like, why are, why are we using it? We've done this already. I just think, I think a lot of people forget that we've done a lot of these things three years in a row. We seem as a community in the fantasy to finally have gone away for the most part. Some people still use it. I'm not calling anyone out, but for the most part, gone away from this coach passed to the tight end 25% of the time. So now he's with this new team and he's going to pass the tight end 25% of the time. Well, yeah, but that coach also had Rob Gronkowski and Travis Kelce, so guess what? Of course he passed to the tight end. We seem for the most part to have gone away from that, even though it comes up from time to time. So I, I really just think it comes down to making sure whatever you're using, please provide the context why it's useful. Otherwise we should all just ignore it and cancel you.

[Alfredo]

Well, I think so. Like, that's what happens though is that people will take something out of context because it's either confirming a prior or it leans into their bias. Right. And, and I found that almost everybody, like even myself, like, we all have some sort of bias, whether we realize it or not. And it's sometimes just the way you look at the game. Right? It's like I've heard I need to have running quarterback. I only lean towards bigger wide receivers, I only lean towards younger running backs. Like, these are all things that I've heard here on the show. I know that context becomes important, but do you have some sort of bias where like maybe you get into a draft, you're looking at a trade and you're just like, I just tend to lean towards this type of player when making a decision.

[John Daigle]

It's pass catching. Running backs, as I mentioned earlier, I try to make sure they stand out in at the bottom of my tiers whenever there are a tear break, just because I understand that gives them multiple outs. I, I think the Best example this year is Bree hall for season long someone I came into the offseason lower on Braylon Allen, Isaiah Davis still there. It is going to be a run heavy offense and Justin Fields takes away carries. But at the same time Breece hall not only has gotten somewhat confident confirmation from his entire coaching staff that he's not getting traded and he's going to be the starter, but he's boasting a double digit target share every year of his career so far. And so that kind of guy who we've seen like break the game and separate like Devon Hn except Breeze hall is much more cheaper this season. That's the kind of guy and the type of players I always look for and say I want to be higher on even in the later rounds because again they can find different ways to provide production and stand out to their coaches.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, and I think that's just kind of a like one of the things I mentioned him before but JJ Zacharies and it's kind of like he told me like from the first time he came on the show is man, just let yourself live in that gray area. Understand that you're going to be wrong a lot more often than you think. And even if you're used like you said with Bruce hall, you start out low on a guy, the more you look at this player, things are going to change and you're going to be able to learn new information, perhaps even situation around that player changes and you kind of have to how does, how does a ADP fluctuate throughout the off season? Because I know you made the joke earlier about Saquon. Maybe you don't like them in the, in the second but you like them in the third. You know, sometimes that happens. Ridiculous. Yeah. So that actually leads me to next thing here because this is something that's kind of come up in conversation. You're gonna be the first person that I asked this to is when you get into a draft, right. How do you try to balance drafting for upside versus drafting for consistency? Because I know this is something that like friends in my home leagues and maybe the less experienced fantasy players, they'll always tell me hey man, who's just going to get me like a good double digit amount every week? I don't have to worry about them. I can just keep them plugged in. I don't know if that's always the right way to go about this because you need to have those big pop off weeks so that you can win. So how do you try to build a team while Also, you know, compensating. One side of upside, one side of consistency, that floor and ceiling together.

[John Daigle]

Although the term gets mundane. There are league winners every single year and it's a matter of filtering your bench and finding them. And honestly, in season long, just because you have the ability to cut everyone if you need to, upside is honestly all that matters. At the same time though, like, you can't just say that outright because if you're starting a team with only upside, you probably are losing because you need to pinpoint when they're hitting their upside as well. And so I think when you talk about consistency, it is guys in that quote unquote dead zone where it's Alvin Camara, James Conner, Dave Montgomery, guys like that, that people don't want to draft, but they are weekly starters for however long they are healthy or until they lose their job. And so it's, it's a, it's a hard thing to explain what to do. I think it really just comes with being able to mold yourself in drafts and go with the flow and follow the room and then go against the grain. But yes, I am trying to target more upside than anything. Understanding again. And I'll, I'll keep repeating this phrase because that's what season long fans football is. That's what I do. Like, we are playing in windows. We are not projecting out for 17 games. We're trying to go week to week here since again, we can always cut everyone so. And pick up new players. So yeah, I do try to feature more upside, but I do understand that a lot of players have different qualities and although they may not be in your weakness, 14, 15 playoff lineups, it doesn't matter because they probably are serviceable right now.

[Alfredo]

I'm not gonna lie. I kind of like that for the thumbnail too. We're playing in windows. That's, that's a great philosophy, a way to look at this.

[John Daigle]

You got to jump out that window too when you're like. And sometimes it's hard, but you have to do it.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, I. What. One of the two of the guests that I've had on here have had such similar concepts where they even broke it down. Specifically right now, like Jake Seeley says, like, don't waste your bench. People waste their bench going for safe players. Right. And Heath Cummings just straight up said, listen, after round six, I don't care about like the Wanda L. Robinsons that are going to give you a high floor. I'm just shooting for all upside at that point. So it's just, it's I think that's, that's an overarching theme here that audience members are hearing is just get that upside for your bench, get that upside for the later parts of your drafts and even when you're picking up off waiver wires as well. And I think what we do tend to see is kind of like, kind of mentioned like one of my friends, he's always just looking for that consistency and I keep telling him every year, you don't, you don't need that bud. Like, that's not going to help you win. What's a big mistake that you see happening in fantasy leagues over and over, year after year?

[John Daigle]

That's definitely one you should be, especially in home league season long leagues, you should be a lot more open to risk and attacking the ambiguous situations. Guys like Kyle Williams, Trey Harris, Bashel Tootin, those guys are going to go in the last couple of rounds of your home league. You should always take them on and just keep them stashed there just in case. Because especially in your home leagues, people are going with the things they have seen before, even if, like they're certain and the certainty means nothing. Like Kendrick Bourne is certain, but it means nothing to my team. You should always just go to the next thing. So, yes, be much more open to risk and attacking ambiguous situations. That would be my suggestion that people should always do in their home leagues.

[Alfredo]

Would you say that's kind of how you also approach the waiver wire? If you just have an underperforming player, let's just cut our losses. Don't get into the sunk cost fallacy. Let's just go and find someone with some high upside out there.

[John Daigle]

I write a very complex waiver wire and that my goal, Ian Hardit's always laughed at it at Roto World because I told him my goal is to pretend as if you can't ask me a question. I was like, all right, if you're asking me a question, that means I need to address that question in this waiver wire. So I write as if I'm leaving you with no questions left. Thus, I will even tell people, like, I have this player ranked. It'll be in a blurb. I have this player ranked here, but if you're not going to start him this week, go to the next player. Go to number three and four because this player's next two matchups after this week are X and Y. And this is why X and Y are bad matchups and you won't start this player. So I, I try to get as deep as Possible. I also write for 16 team leagues that establish the run. I make sure everything is covered. Having said that, it can be confusing at times because there, there is, there are teams out there. And I, I sometimes I have these teams in fantasy where I need some desperation pickup and otherwise you would never start this player. So it is how I handle the waiver wire. But honestly I, I probably tried to balance way too much as opposed to going with one direction in the waiver wire. I address it all.

[Alfredo]

So I know when it comes to just adding players to your team, it's something that I know a lot of people, we almost get too desperate at times in the middle of the season. Teams like oh and three, and you're just, okay, I gotta go spend 70 of my fab on this one player or I gotta make a move. And sometimes I see people that are just making moves because they're panicked or making moves because they're bored almost. And it's like, I call it like getting the fantasy football empty calories. You're bored and you just want to do something. So you head to the pantry and you see like, hey, who can I trade with in my league? How do you actually decide when it's time to. Okay, there's nothing on the waiver wire for me. Let me see if I can find a trade worth pursuing. What's that process even like for you?

[John Daigle]

It's different from league to league. And I know some people who have been around the league in fantasy football and in this industry forever and they'll still even in industry leagues. I'm not gonna, there's one person, I'm not gonna say his name though. But they'll sit in some horrific trade, but they'll keep it coming. They'll be the guy in your dynasty league who will just pepper you with trades. And now I'm at the point of my life where I, I don't even answer you, like, if it's a bad trade, this is not even a starting point. It's not worth me even clicking decline. I'm just going to leave it hanging because I know it pisses you off on the other side of the world. So how I approach trades, I'm always looking for a win win. And I think that's how you get deals done better than any other thing. Don't try to lowball. Don't start with asking price or whatever. Just go for win wins and say, look at this person's roster. Say, just tell yourself, I know they need this. So they'll probably take this player what do I need? That's why I also hate vetoes. In leagues you can have like, if someone wants to have a podcast where like you only bring up trade, I'm sure it probably even exists. But if you just want to put on like an old school gray judge wig and only bring up trades that have been vetoed, bring them to the podcast court and talk about them for like 30 minutes or whatever. It would be a good subject because there are trades that probably should be vetoed, but the option should still be removed entirely. Because you can't look at a trade just from the surface and understand both rosters. Like some people may be trained for rookies because they're so top heavy they need to stack their bench. And if they're stacking their bench, it's going to naturally look a lot worse than getting starters immediately. And so that's why I hate Veto's.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, that's so I1. You have the same exact philosophy as Pat Fitzmaurice who said almost the identical thing.

[John Daigle]

We're both so old and, and grumpy.

[Alfredo]

Well, I mean it's like I hate it every time someone's like, they'll send me a screenshot and I'm doing a lot of this like saying like friends that I've had since high school, college, that we, we do leagues and separate leagues and they'll just say, hey man, did I win this trade? I'm just like, sure man. In a vacuum, maybe you want it like we're not gonna know until the season's over because this guy you got like might go off week 13 when you need a most, you need to get into the fantasy playoffs, right? So like that's something I know trades we're often looking at like this is, I've heard the rule, like I always want to have the best player in a trade, right? And I think sometimes we, we take that a little too far. Not just in trades, but even when you're starting players, you're trying to figure out your lineup, it's like, well, I got to start my best players every single week because these are the names that, these are the players that got me here or these are the names that I drafted highly. You know, this was my 4th or 5th round pick. How do you try to balance that? I know you've mentioned this multiple times that we play this in windows. How do you balance that? Making these decisions where you're like, okay, I gotta start my quote stud versus actually I really just gotta play the matchup and this guy may not have the same name value, but he's got the better matchup this week.

[John Daigle]

It's definitely a week to week game and I think you probably should in the first three to three weeks lean towards starting your studs just because we don't have enough information yet to make accurate decisions. And so we're still going off all the research and analysis we did during the off season and why we like these players to begin with. So I would never say that term after the first month of the season. Within the first month, I'm definitely more prone to begin starting my studs. Having said that, as we get more information, let's like the most recent example is Malik Neighbors at the end of the year were like for a month and a half, two months, he was getting double digit targets per game but they were XFL targets like they didn't matter. He was still a wide receiver three or four and Malik Neighbors is a stud. But again you could replicate even better production than wide receiver three or four on the waiver wire at times, honestly, but probably on your bench. And so that's when I say when we're at that point of the year and all these weeks stacked up and we understand his targets are inaccurate, thus they, they do not look like the 13 per game that he's getting, then we can say stud. But I can find better than this. And so then I'll bench the stud. And that's at the end of the year when we have more information. And by the way, when Drew Locke entered a week 17 when everyone was already out of the playoffs with Belik Neighbors, he scorched the world. So maybe we, we all know nothing anyways.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, every year it's like we get into the fantasy playoffs and we're, we're talking about, hey, you got to start Ty Chandler this week because he's got some opportunity, you know, like, it's just we always end up going into these names that we're not the quote studs at the beginning of the year. That's just how fantasy football ends up going. So I think we see this a lot, right? There's always at the end of the year we'll see what I learned from the fantasy season. Or some people just like aren't even good about like being able to just admit when they've been wrong about something. And like I think we've, I think as an industry have gotten better about that. Like, hey, I was wrong about this. If you're wrong about a player, what's the process like going back and, and figuring out why you missed and how does it shape future decisions for you.

[John Daigle]

And like I mentioned Lab McConkey earlier, it was just over analysis. I needed to get out of my own way, and so I've gotten better at that. I think the big one for me was maybe there's an example before this, but the one I recall was Mike Davis with the Falcons, and I wasn't necessarily even above market. Maybe I was overweight on Mike Davis. I'd have to go back and look at those ROTOR world tiers and rankings.

[Alfredo]

But time to be alive. It was just pictures of quads going all over the Internet.

[John Daigle]

Yeah, yeah, that was it. That was A.J. dillon's rookie year, I think, too. But Mike Davis, though, was a running back who had never handle going back to college a large workload. But suddenly the roster portrayed as if he was going to handle a large, large workload. And so we were all just chasing the touches. Not a lot of people, people who already learned their lesson the hard way. The. What's another example? Chase Edmonds with the Dolphins. Or did he come after? Did he come after? I think he came after that. Okay, so I learned. Let's say I learned the hard lesson through Mike Davis drafting him and then realizing, oh, he never handled a large workload at any point of his career. Why was I ever going to think he was going to do it now? Then Chase Edmonds comes along with Dolphins. Everyone's higher on him. It's like, oh, well, this. These people didn't learn their lesson from Mike Davis. Let him learn the hard way with Chase Edmonds. Then, like last year, for example, Samir White and Raheem Mostert come along and it's like, well, well, they didn't. People didn't learn their lesson with Chase Edmonds and Mike Davis, so let them learn their hard way. Was Amir White. And so, yeah, I think that you have to just keep remembering that you already learned this lesson. Why would you not use it the following year and the following years after that? So, yeah, that's the most recent one that I look back and I, I was just analyzing. I was. Didn't know how to do it. And now, okay, I can take that lesson. And we're trying to learn something new literally every year. And like I said, most recently, lad McConaughey, that was the lesson. It's like, hey, you have all this information, but you didn't ignore the correct part. So, yeah, we're trying to get better every year.

[Alfredo]

It's like a nightmare highlight reel you just gave me there. I Started thinking of, like, Alexander Madison and a bunch of these other running.

[John Daigle]

Oh, yeah, that's. They all came in a row, actually. So, yeah. Mike dav. Learn your lesson. Chase Edmonds, Alexander Madison, Zamir White. Like, you just gotta. It's Those the easiest guys to fade now.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, man. Oh, I feel like we just don't learn our lesson.

[John Daigle]

I just gave you. Yeah, I just gave you ptsd.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, right? Yeah. Like, it's just totally derailed me. Okay. So we've talked about, like, how. How you started in this industry, the way you look at the game. And I think that, you know, as you've mentioned, the game has changed significantly over the years, and it changes every season. One of the things that I keep seeing more and more, and this is from both sides.

[John Daigle]

Right.

[Alfredo]

This is either from an industry standpoint or even just from players that are trying to. Fantasy managers, excuse me. That are trying to play the game is AI is being used more. And it's becoming this, like, hot button issue where, like, some people are just like, ah, I really don't want to be around it. Some people are like, hey, it's the future. We've got to embrace it. I find myself still very much on the fence. Like, I. I started this off by just saying, like, watch one movie, people. Like, I'm begging you, and you'll feel the same way I do. And, like, there's times where I've seen, like, okay, it has its uses. Have. Have you found that you use AI artificial intelligence for. For anything in fantasy football, or do you see a good use for it amongst consumers in fantasy football?

[John Daigle]

People should watch Ex Machina. Is that how you pronounce it?

[Alfredo]

Yes.

[John Daigle]

Okay, well, if that's how you pronounce it, it's a great movie. But also when we say great, it's horrifically terrifying.

[Alfredo]

Yeah.

[John Daigle]

It'll leave you shaking, depressing and away. And like, now even I will. Do you use the webcam closer, like, so your camera doesn't stay open?

[Alfredo]

Yes.

[John Daigle]

Okay. I. I use it too, because I'm terrified of computers. I'm just. Now, I think everyone's being watched at all times. Even though we all. Everyone, like technology knows where we're at at all times. There's no more running and hiding anymore. I still try to do my best to cover up my tracks. Having said that, AI is an open space right now and that we don't know. And we were asked this question. Myself, CEO, co founders of Establish to Run, Taylor, KB and Evan Silva, we all just did a panel at fsga. Last week in Chicago, here at the Westin downtown. It was great open Q and A. It was fun to get up there and talk to everybody. But we were asked about AI and our answer was we just don't know we're even toying with it. At ETR one time we put out a altered thumbnail where we literally just altered Stefan Diggs's face to show him like frowning because we were fading him. And people, the comments were unbelievable because everyone's scared, like it AI is coming for your job. That is the initial reaction and obviously we don't want that. So we've done away with that already. But myself personally, I will use AI to help me research projects that otherwise in the past manually would have taken me days to do. For example, like I just created a model where I had to. I dragged in all of Fantasy Pro's ADP for the last decade and then the points per game results. That way I could. That way I could tell myself or use for content coming up over the next couple of months. Oh, well, like this eighth round running back, like in the, you know, the 803 spot. Historically, over the last decade, if you drafted him, should have been at this points per game for his career. But this player is actually higher or lower. If I had to do that manually, it would have take. I could have done it, but it would take it a lot longer. Through Excel and bad formulas, AI allowed me to do that in mere hours. So I think it definitely helps shorten and give us more freedom and time. But then what does it become after that? Man, you're I, I, I. The same answer you have. I don't know. I really do not know.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm trying to keep an open mind because all I hear is like, oh, AI is not going to take your job, but someone that knows how to use it's going to take your job. And I'm just like, okay, I'm trying, just try to keep as open mind as possible, like understand how it all works and everything, but trying to keep an open mind.

[John Daigle]

But then every time you log on social media, you see a robot like in a canoe rowing up a river. You're like, yep, we're done. Yeah, we're done.

[Alfredo]

We're totally cooked. Like the robot dogs. Oh, did you see like the thing the other day where they're like, they're trying to knock over one of the little robots and they're showing its stability while it's still running. And I'm just like, yeah, we're we're done.

[John Daigle]

We gotta send them to. We gotta send them to Philly. Have you heard of the story. Have you heard of the story of the robot that ran across the country?

[Alfredo]

Oh, my gosh, no.

[John Daigle]

So someone's gonna have to double check me here and like tweet me the article. But there is a story where they did create a robot that would cross the country. Like a peaceful robot, saying, hey, this Forrest Gump robot. Yes.

[Alfredo]

Just going to. Across the country.

[John Daigle]

This is what they can do. Like, they can. They can get this far. Like, we can build lasting creations now with this material. And it started, gosh, was it the other side of Canada? Like Ontario, Louisiana? Somewhere around there. But it did cross the country. It went all the way across. It got to Philly and then overnight its head was found on a bench because of course, like, Philly was having none of it. So just none of that. Whenever AI begins taking us over, we're sending them all to Philly.

[Alfredo]

See, all they showed us is that the AI has great cardio and we're all doomed. Like, that's it.

[John Daigle]

That's unless. Unless we join forces with Philadelphia fans. Yeah.

[Alfredo]

Philly fans, man, thank you for, for being who you are. I guess you're gonna be the hope for the future. That's amazing. So, like, I know we have. We've seen so many changes in the fantasy football space in fantasy football leagues, but what's changed? Just one thing you wish you could see more. I think there's so many bright spots in fantasy football and in what we do that sometimes get overlooked. Like, what's one thing you wish you could see more of?

[John Daigle]

I understand the growth of Best ball and why it's happening. There are absolute sick minded people out there who, who want to talk about and draft football teams every month of the year. That's okay. I still appreciate stepping away for a month or two because we all need to refresh, I feel like before getting back in the weeds. But everyone can handle it to their own mental health and accord. That's okay. Having said that, I worry a little bit looking from the outside in that it's the same thing. What happened with the poker scene and sports betting and that is best ball. What is being most advertised right now is the lotteries. And I want more winnable contest. Like, yes, there is absolutely still skill involved. Perhaps we're even early to best ball, but I do think we should have much more smaller fields that are accessible to people as opposed to only advertising and telling them about these lotteries with 150 lineups. Because just like what happened with DFS where then that got so popular and they broke everything into showdown and single game slates. That the rake is terrible, but people still love playing them because again, they offer 1.5 million or whatever to first place. That's the direction it seems like best ball is going, where we're only paying the rake, and I do not want that. So I would say I want content and small fields for that content and best ball before we get. Before we get in our own way.

[Alfredo]

That's something that I've noticed too, with best ball is like, yes, it's been. It's been growing. I. I think I'm just seeing more and more people losing more often than not. And I also have.

[John Daigle]

I think it's growing in the wrong way, unfortunately.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, I've seen. I've seen them, like, I hate to say it because it almost sounds pejorative when I say, but, like, there's almost been sort of a best ball brain rot that I see that kind of carries over into other facets of like taking the best ball strategies and applying them to just general fantasy football. And that doesn't always work the same.

[John Daigle]

Oh, it's not only does it not work the same, it's horrible. It's like, yeah, the last three years especially. I went on JJ show, by the way, a few weeks ago and talked about this. The last three years especially, but now even more so because it gets more intense every year. Best ball ADP is quite literally completely useless for season long. Completely.

[Alfredo]

I don't know why we keep it in consensus ADPs, right? I just don't, man.

[John Daigle]

It's. It's on us, Alfredo. It's on us to keep on telling everyone that, yes, like, we are. We are doing something different. The game respects game, but we also, again, always have to provide context.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, yeah, context. Big, big theme of this show here. So, okay, John daigle, you are 98 years old. You're hanging up your mic and headphones. You're. You're retiring from fantasy football content. What is it that you want the people to remember about you that you want to be known for when they say, yeah, John Daigle, that guy.

[John Daigle]

There are a lot of quotes and mantras I walk around with my head all the time. Inspiration is perishable is one of them. I don't want to be remembered for that, though. I will say my. My favorite one I always think about is, this is like the third reference to Conan o'. Brien. As if he, like, shaped my Life. Somehow. I did watch all of his shows, but whenever he had his last show with tbs, which was like an outing where they were pushing him out, not his choice at all. He's still on. His very last show came out, and the last words he said were, I don't think it's verbatim, but it's very close. If not, the last quote he said was, just remember, be kind and don't burn bridges. And that was it. And I think that's how I want to be remembered, is be kind and do not burn bridges, and life will work itself out for you.

[Alfredo]

We need more of that. Like, we absolutely just need more of that, of people that are willing to be kind. I think there's somewhere along the line, everyone just kind of got really competitive with one another, and it became a thing where it's like one person tweeted something and that's it. I'm done with that guy. And we definitely need a little bit more. More kindness. Even within, like, own leagues and stuff like that. I see people dropping out of fantasy leagues and that, breaking up all the time.

[John Daigle]

Gosh, imagine that, too. Losing, losing. And I know it happens, but losing a friend over fancy football. That's also why I think it's very easy to carry ourselves without any amount of seriousness. We take our job serious, but we don't take ourselves serious because just step away and think about it. All we're doing is talking about football. Like, no one should have a bravado if they're talking about football, even if they're hosting NBC, espn, whatever. Like, dude, you're talking about football. Who cares?

[Alfredo]

It's a game. A game about a game. Yeah, like, it's. It should just be fun. One of my favorite quotes I heard was like, if. If I'm feeling down or like, just having a rough day, and it's like, oh, what, are you having a hard time living out your dream? Like, you. You get to have a really fun job and do something really cool.

[John Daigle]

I. I think. I think. I think about that every time I see the NFL schedule and Black Friday games and everything. It's like, I just remember you wanted to do this. Like, you chased this for 30 years of life. No, there's no going back now.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, yeah, we got. We got to be grateful. I think we've. We also have so many people around us that have. Have made the experience great. And I got some little mailbag questions here for you. I want to rapid fire here at the end of this, and so sure. I got Jeremy, who is the fantasy football moderator over on Reddit, and he asked, how did living with Silva impact your fantasy football analysis slash process? And how did it impact your overall life? That's a loaded question.

[John Daigle]

So for those that don't know, during the pandemic, I was mentally unstable because I was living at Stanford, Connecticut for NBC and I'd moved there for my job. But everyone that I considered a friend had gone away or had, like, families and living in New York. So I was on my own. Even, like, Josh Norris went back to Charlotte with his family. No one was there. So I was just stuck there, working from home in a pandemic where we didn't understand anything that was going on with COVID So at times for like a month, I was even scared to step outside because again, we had no information or knowledge at that time. Yeah, and so it was bad. It was very, very bad. And I got. I got scared, like, maybe that wasn't going to be around too much longer. So I said, okay, I have to change this. Thus, I canceled my lease. And I picked up and said, NBC's they're not letting in the studio anymore. That's okay. I'm working from home entirely. So I'm just going to be a nomad and go around the country. So I set off from Connecticut to Traverse City in Michigan. I was going to go live in wine and golfing country for a while in a cabin, and my first stop was in Chicago to see Silva, who we had never. No, we met one time. At that point, we really didn't know too much about each other, though we were still getting to know each other, and I stopped for a couple days. A couple days came a week, week became a couple weeks, and then it becomes quite literally like over a year. We lived with each other where he just bought a new house. I had the. I had the top floor, he had the bottom floor. He slept in the basement. I don't know why that was. I just don't think he was thinking about it. And it was exactly as you think during a pandemic where we would be up till, like, we'd wake up, we'd go out for breakfast with each other to restaurants or I'd cook, but restaurants that, like, weren't closed due to Covid because they refused to close. We go get breakfast, we come back, we do work and shows. We go out to, like, a bar, talk about football, come back, do work till 2 or 3 in the morning, and then go to bed, wake up at 7 or 8 and do the same routine every Day like that for an entire year. It was absolutely insane. So much so that probably like a year after you could ask him this too. Like, we. We honestly didn't talk. I just think we got sick of each other, which is sad considering he's one of my best friends. Yeah. But honestly, like, we needed a lot of space from each other when you.

[Alfredo]

Became a loveless marriage at some point.

[John Daigle]

And that's why people call us a married couple, because it truly was. And you'll still see that tendency, like, at the panel, I'm still like, antagonizing him or making him laugh or just annoying him on purpose because I know I can get. I can drive him up. But yeah, it truly is a marriage between us. And so, I mean, I learned a lot of things about his process, about his life. I mean, I learned so, so, so much. But also, yeah, we got sick of each other for sure. Luckily, we're on very good standing now where I talk or see him to him at least once a day. Honestly, we've returned to our. Our healthy relationship. But how did it impact, like, my process and my overall life? Yeah, it did a whole lot for a whole different. Lot of different reasons, but he taught me a lot, for sure.

[Alfredo]

You mentioned earlier you like to cook. Now you mentioned that sometimes for breakfast you'll cook. What's the. What's the go to meal?

[John Daigle]

My best dish, I tell everyone I will make a sweet potato gnocchi from scratch with sage and brown butter. But also being Texan, like, you're born, you come out the womb and ribs are in your blood. So, like, I can, I can smoke ribs. I feel like with my own barbecue sauce with the best of of them.

[Alfredo]

That's awesome. That's. I tried, I tried to do some cooking during COVID It just. It didn't work out.

[John Daigle]

And since, well, so I was like that. God, I'd have to string together the actual tree for everyone. But I was like that. I didn't cook at all until I quarter life crisis. Okay. We didn't even talk about the story. I. I picked up and moved to Australia. Like, that was my crisis. Like, you know what? I'm unhappy. I was 23, living in LA, still working in fantasy football, but I wasn't with all that I've done in fantasy football since I was like 14 on. I still wasn't at the point of my career. And by the way, I was 23. Like, who cares? Like, I had the rest of my life, right? But I. To me, it was the end of the world. And I wasn't at the point in my career where I wanted to be. I wasn't talking to the right people, meeting the right people. So it's like, okay, like I'm just gonna quit this. I'm just gonna one way ticket myself to Australia, play poker there and just have a life there and live on the other side of the country. What? Or in the world, whatever. And so I happened to move into a flat. I met someone on their version of Craigslist called Gumtree and it was a four bedroom flat. The other three roommates were all going to culinary school to be chefs. And so then I naturally got roped into their energy and their pastimes which were like taking what they learned in class and bringing it back and cooking with each other. So I got roped into that and so I learned to cook and my passion for cooking to this day came from them and my quarter life crisis.

[Alfredo]

That's. So you basically got like free cooking school being around these three aspiring chefs?

[John Daigle]

Yeah, and we would do like games were blindfold and taste test or, or like hey, lottery, where lottery was fun. You go to the grocery store and you could only buy proteins and sides that were on sale and so you just didn't know what you were going to start with. But you still had to make a whole meal for the house with the, the sale items and that way we could all save money too. And so yeah, we would do just lots of different games where we, we'd teach each other different things.

[Alfredo]

You guys are just basically playing Chopped but in your, like in your flat essentially.

[John Daigle]

Gloria, Stephen and Lee and John Daigle. Yeah, all of us. One, One New Zealand, one from Malaysia, one just Australian. Just. Yeah, it was all of us and then one Texan.

[Alfredo]

Eclectic bunch.

[John Daigle]

Yeah.

[Alfredo]

So this next question, it might be dated by the time this episode even comes out, but Joey Wright wants to ask who should win on Saturday, Omega or Okada?

[John Daigle]

I am an Omega guy. I still want the Golden Lovers to get. I don't know if you understand this reference at all, but I would love.

[Alfredo]

To hear some of these words.

[John Daigle]

Okay, I'm still a Golden Lovers, like biggest fan and so if somehow we could connect the storyline there, although they probably won't, that would be great. But I personally, Joey, if you're listening, am an Omega guy. Also, I just respect, respect the sport of wrestling, so. So whatever happens, I know it's going to be amazing.

[Alfredo]

Maya. Unfortunately my wrestling fandom finished with the Attitude era.

[John Daigle]

Everyone's dead.

[Alfredo]

It feels like I rewatched the Vince, the Vince McMahon documentary that's on Netflix, which was, I mean, just wild.

[John Daigle]

Which also, like, doesn't reignite your passion. Like, it shows you how disgusting that human being was.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, I. I got. It made me go, like, all right, well, maybe. Maybe I'm not going to get into it. My wife, she was like, you watched this when you were a kid? I was like, yes, everyone.

[John Daigle]

Everyone did, first of all. And it was amazing. Like, we didn't comprehend anything that was going on behind the scenes. It was incredible. That's when they also, like, hid dirt sheets. You could find them if you wanted to online, but for the most part, they hid dirt sheets of the storyline. Seemed real. And like, a lot of people, like you are one example, where they just got out whenever WCW intruded. And that's okay. I also got out around that time, but then I came back. I'm the other example. When CM Punk had the pipe bomb and it made espn, cn, it made cnn. I remember seeing it on news, and then I was like, wait, what is this? Like, CM Punk just kind of stole the mic and did something live when he wasn't supposed to. And that got me back into it back in 2011. And now we're in 2025, and I still watch religiously, sadly.

[Alfredo]

I don't know if I'm a big movie guy. I don't know if you've seen the new Street Fighter movie that they're. They're casting. It's been like a bunch of. A bunch of wrestlers I've seen. Like, Cody Rhodes is going to be in it as well. Like, there's a bunch of these guys.

[John Daigle]

I don't know anything about it, but I do know it can't possibly be worse than the First Street Fighter. That. That I know for sure.

[Alfredo]

Probably not. This one's going to be a personal one. Chris Allen asked, did you get your sink fixed?

[John Daigle]

This is such a stupid question.

[Alfredo]

Why'd you bring this to the stupid question? I just really wanted.

[John Daigle]

Chris Allen showed up to stay at my place. Like I said, I had friends down for the panel and just coming to Chicago, Rich Rebar was the other one came around. We all went to the Cubs game together. It was. It was a lot of fun catching up with them. But he came in and it just so happened that that was the day. Also my sink fixed. Thus I have no running water at the house. So, like, we have no drinking water because I can't filter it out into the pitcher. And to answer Chris's question, it was not fixed. I Started adapting and drinking from the sink, the bathroom sink that happened to be working, but no filter. And I got sick and realized, okay, I can't. Like, I'm 37. I can't be doing this. Like, I'm living in hostels all over again. So I stopped adapting and I got an appointment. Yes, it's fixed now, Chris. You're welcome.

[Alfredo]

There you go, Chris. Now. Now, Chris is just going to show up at your place tomorrow looking for water.

[John Daigle]

Well, we have water now.

[Alfredo]

Last question on here from Bingles on Blue sky, asking waffles or pancakes?

[John Daigle]

I'm going to say waffles, but in the back of all of our heads, we have, like, our favorite dishes that we've ever eaten, like, stashed in there. And the one of the top five meals of my entire life I still remember is a. It were pancakes with berry compote at an Australian cafe called Two Birds, One Stone that I still follow on Instagram to this day, if only because their pancakes changed my life. They made them spheric cylinder, but, like, they were. Had buoyancy. Like, they. You could push them down. They pushed back. Yeah, but not spongy. Like.

[Alfredo]

Like a cake bow. It wasn't like that.

[John Daigle]

Like a bowel. Yeah. Kind of dough. So it was interesting. It was glorious. Like, oh, my. I would go back just for that dish. So that's one of my favorite dishes. But I'm still going to take waffles over pancakes in America every time.

[Alfredo]

I'm just going to throw this out here. Option C. French toast. French toast. Slabs.

[John Daigle]

The only thing about French toast is that I will take it normal. But if you get it stuffed, it's always too much. It's too much sugar. It's too big. There's just too much stuff going on with it.

[Alfredo]

Yeah. I'm not trying to do all that. By the way, judging by your taste so far in food, have you done a Korean bakery?

[John Daigle]

I'm thinking I don't think I have.

[Alfredo]

That needs to be the next thing you do.

[John Daigle]

What is a popular dish that I can get at a Korean bakery? I will find one, like, this week because that's how I kind of start my day, by the way. Like, I. I make my own cold brew. I steep my own cold brew. But honestly, I like to start my day with, like, a walk to any kind of cafe and just get a cold brew there. But then I also order a treat if you tell me what to order.

[Alfredo]

So they have this breakfast bread that they call it. It's like a. Like a It's like called a dongle, which I don't quite know how that works.

[John Daigle]

Interesting.

[Alfredo]

But. But it's basically like a soft, almost like a Hawaiian roll type substance that has like some jam and like a cream cheese in it. They, they do a lot of really like puff pastries. I know the one we've gone to has these cakes that I think maybe the entire cake feels like the same density as one slice of regular cake here in the US it is just this light, fluffy, airy thing. It's. It's amazing. It's. I'm not doing it justice here, but it's one of those things my wife found. And every year we get our birthday cakes from the Korean bakery.

[John Daigle]

I just need your reassurance that if I walk in, ask for a dongle, they won't laugh at me. Like, that's the real word.

[Alfredo]

I hope that's the real word. If not, I've said, you don't sound too confident.

[John Daigle]

No.

[Alfredo]

Now I'm worried I'm gonna have to Google this and let you know after this.

[John Daigle]

Google it and send it to me because I will go find one for sure.

[Alfredo]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure, man. Well, John, this has been awesome, like having you here, just getting to know you a little bit more, hearing all about your philosophies with fantasy football, the way you look at the game has definitely helped me learn more. I know it's going to help the audience learn a little bit more. What I'd love to do here to finish this off, man, is just tell everybody what you're working on and yeah.

[John Daigle]

Where they can find you at Najdagle on Twitter. And we are expanding our season long product now that this is my second year at Established to run. We're coming on and we had a full off season to think about what we can do to not only expand my side but to help everyone out even more. So we're probably going to start doing a lot more on Instagram as well. If you want to go to establish the run and not J. Daigle on Instagram. Not to mention Silva just texted me on Monday unfortunately and said hey, like we got to put the first team previews up by Friday. So the team previews are about to start rolling out there and from then on it's going to be the tiers that everyone loves rankings. My favorite is the default exploiting the default ranking series which is saying like Sleeper for example. These guys are way too low or way too high. The ADP is not correct. Please don't go in looking Just at adp, Take this list and understand you will get these values. And that's just not for Sleeper. That's for Yahoo everywhere else. So all of that stuff that everyone loves that we did not talk about on this show, instead talked about cocktails in the world. We will be coming out with that. Establish the run basically beginning next week.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to do is just find those little, like, cheat codes in the 80 because.

[John Daigle]

The ADP is so horrifically bad. It is so bad.

[Alfredo]

And it's just because different.

[John Daigle]

Remember, the interface doesn't get touched all year long, so of course it's bad. It's just based on last year's points. And again, you don't get last year's points.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, you. You mentioned a player earlier, Kyle Williams on the New England Patriots. I remember I hopped into a rookie draft and his adp, he was just pushed so far down the list. It was just such a cheat code. When you were hopping into these rookie drafts for Dynasty, I had.

[John Daigle]

I had such a hard time on any rookie drafts on MFL because, like, I was scrolling way down for players. Like, I can't even find this guy.

[Alfredo]

Yeah, yeah, there was a bunch of guys. You have to like, write in their names or you draft a kicker and then like on the side add a comment. It's. It's rough out there sometimes. Yeah. But John, thank you so much for joining me, man, it's been such a pleasure to have you. I know we went a little long here, but I appreciate you taking the time. And for everybody watching or listening, as always, thank you for joining us and I'll see you next time. Adios. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today.

[John Daigle]

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[Alfredo]

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[John Daigle]

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[Alfredo]

Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[John Daigle]

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