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Jake Ciely’s Strategy to Find Late-Round Sleepers in Fantasy Football | The Pretend GM Podcast
01:06:18
"Stop Wasting Your Bench!" Jake Ciely (The Athletic) joins the Pretend GM podcast to give his strategy on finding late-round sleepers in fantasy football. Subscribe to the Podcast: Apple: Spotify: YouTube: Follow Alfredo Brown on Socials: ...
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And now a next level moment from at. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. ATT 5G requires a compatible plan and device. Coverage not available everywhere. Learn more@att.com 5G Network stop wasting your bench. I think that's the biggest mistake people make in fantasy is they waste their bench. And the truth is, the vast majority of metrics don't tell us much at all. Everybody wants to be the smartest. Everybody wants to find all these diamonds. But I think that often leads you to go back to my full point from before. Don't buy all the risk just because you want to be the smartest guy in the room.
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A
On this episode of the Pretend gm, I talked with Jake Seeley of the Athletic. We discussed how you should be approaching trades in fantasy football, why you should feel comfortable going against the grain and defying consensus, and how you need to embrace talented players over seemingly big opportunities. Just like you and I. Jake Seeley is a pretend gm. Oh, my God, it's Jake Seeley. What's up, man?
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B
Imposter. What's going on?
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A
Do you have a lot of those running around?
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B
Yeah, totally. I wore this for Jurassic Park.
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A
That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay, so we didn't really talk about it. I know you wrote it on Twitter, but like, we're. I know we're recording, but, you know, this, whatever. This is probably going to come out way after the Jurassic park movie comes out. But what were your actual thoughts on it? How did you really feel about the movie?
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B
I feel like we just Repeated the same beats all over again. But it was fun. I mean.
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A
Yeah.
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And I'm not going to Jurassic park or Jurassic World to be like, oh my God, this is a groundbreaking movie. Or like Sinners, something I've never seen done before. We actually just watched that last night. Nicole and I did. Really great movie. And it's like something that kind of changed the genre a little bit to what you're used to.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It was just the same. Jurassic Park, Jurassic World. Just like they took pieces, like, legitimately, it felt like they took pieces from every single movie, threw it all together, made up a new big bad at the end. And it was just. It was fun. It's. I'm still going to go see dinosaurs chase people. But, like, if you're not a fan of Jurassic Park, I don't know how you enjoy it.
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A
I feel like we are at the, like, too Jurassic, too furious, like, point of the franchise.
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B
That's a real good point.
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A
Like that that's where we are. It's just you either love watching dinosaurs eat people or you don't. And that's pretty much it.
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B
We're going to get a velociraptor jumping off the side of a dam in a car, chasing somebody. Yes, Yes, I will say I do. I said this to Nicole walking out. I think they missed a really good opportunity for a callback. In the scene where he's going to the bathroom.
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A
Okay.
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B
And the velociraptors come up behind him.
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A
Yeah.
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And he kind of hears them. And that whatever monster that they made up, dinosaur or whatever, takes him out, he should have first turned around and done the hand thing and have it not work. And then when the velociraptor went for him, that's when the bird should have swooped out and taken.
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A
That's funny. That's fun. Because that would have been like. It becomes one of those things that like, just gets known around the world of like, oh, there was a guy. It's like a lore almost. There was a guy that could do it just by, you know, putting the hand up.
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B
Putting the hand up.
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A
See, that's. I love when movies do that, when they become part of the joke. Like, I know that the Scream movies aren't great, but I know that they are self aware of what they are and they're sort of meta. Like, I think once a movie starts to go seven, eight films into the franchise, you kind of got to be a little more self aware of what you do well.
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B
And that's the new final destination. Like Just embrace it. Like, embrace what you are.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen that one yet. I heard it's actually really good. Like it's a good return to form, I guess.
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B
And it's kind of. I don't, I don't want to say too much. Definitely 100%.
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A
Okay. That's.
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B
It might be the best one. I mean, the first one's got the originality.
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A
Okay.
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B
But especially if you don't mind the fact that they leaned into the. There's absurdity. Like they know what, they know what you're going for. It's. It's their Jurassic World. You're going there to see dinosaurs eat people. You're going to see ridiculous deaths that, like, there's no way you could stop or see happen. Oh, man.
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A
Okay, so I got to go check that out. I'm going tomorrow to see Superman. I'm so excited for the. It's like Amazon prime that you get.
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B
It before we do. I'm seeing it at the first showing that we can watch here and it's Thursday at like 3:00'.
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Clock. I was actually, and I feel like a fake fan because I was going to do the same thing, do the Thursday night showing. And my wife's like, hey, I got this email, Amazon prime. We get early tickets to Superman. Don't you want to go to that? I'm like, yeah, I had no idea. She's like, well, go, go do it. Go.
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B
So that'll be fun because, yeah, I would have came on and talked about it with you because of the advanced screening of it.
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A
Like, I know we gotta get you on, man.
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B
It'll happen. It'll happen.
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Yeah, I think.
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B
Well, I got you figured out something. Yeah, you got me here.
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Got you. I got you here. I was able to sneak you away for a little BIT and well, Mr. Jake Sealey, I think that's a perfect jumping off point here. So this show is all about trying to, I try to call it more of like a teaching a man to fish as opposed to just, you know, buying the fish at the store. Our, our industry is all about getting answers. Who do I start? Who do I draft? And it almost feels like the art of actually teaching this and understanding it is sort of lost where there's like that little gap between people who do it for a living and people who just play it for fun. And, you know, that's what I want to do here today, is just kind of dive into this. You're, you're one of the top ranking analysts. I don't like to use the word experts, but top ranking analysts in the industry. So you're a great mind to tap into on this. And I know you've been at the Athletic for a little while now, since 2018, if I'm not mistaken. You started in this industry way before that. So I feel like everyone gets that aha moment where they're like, I'm actually kind of decent at this. Why don't I do this for money? So like, what was that moment for you?
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B
So it's funny. First of all, by the way, kudos to you. I say the past three years you're near the top. Are you in the top 10 or you're very close to the top?
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No, I actually, I posted a response to it. It's the Conan o', Brien, like looking in the window meme. Because I'm at number 11, like just outside of the top 10 tweet. So like, congratulations to everyone.
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And I'm like, should I jump back in to kick you down an extra spot? Thanks. Like 12.
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Thanks, man.
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B
You know what's funny about it is it wasn't even me who made this initial decision to. Well, I mean, I did make the decision, but it wasn't like the, the light bulb didn't go off in my brain until somebody el said something to me. So I actually started in 2010. Started with my. That was with the site that actually started myself 2008 with my own blog. It wasn't a recommendation on my part of like, hey, I can go do this. It was a recommendation from somebody else. You remember forums? Remember, like, hey, I'm going to jump in this forum and chat with other people and then check back and see if somebody replied to my forum. And like, you know, you remember all those, the old days.
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A
Just barely, just barely. I'm like in the next stop.
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B
You already make me feel bad with your hair. You don't have to make me feel bad with your age. Give me a complex with the awesome hair. And then of course you're like younger than me. Yeah.
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So yeah, I'm actually making 6 years old. My bad.
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B
Yeah, there we go. Much better. Great hair for a 56 year old. Thanks, man. So I was in a Giants form back when I did care about the Giants and we would talk fantasy football every single week. We started a fancy football of fans in the Giants forum and anytime somebody asked a question, I would give my two cents. And legitimately, after about two years of this, I got, I got the opportunity to be assistant moderator too. Like, it was big back then. As the people telling people what to do in the forum. It came down to the point where every single week, you know, jumping in the conversation and one of the people back then legitimately said to me in the forum, they're like, dude, why aren't you doing this? And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, why aren't you on a site writing stuff, giving your opinions, talking about it somewhere? Because you're really good at it. So it was legitimately somebody else. And I was like, huh, you know what? I've always kind of wanted to do it. So I made the mistake of starting my blog. And I say mistake because after about two years of my blog, I sent it out to all the talent. I sent it out to like, like, like actually like us. Like, if I was send it to us to be like, hey, I want looking for a job. But I sent it to like back then 2008, 2009, talking like Tony Kornheiser and, and like Mike. And Mike. And like, yeah, like I said, I found all these like high end people and like most of them came back. Tony Kornhouser actually called me and yelled at me and then Mike for Mike. And Mike actually called and actually gave me some decent advice. His careers skyrocketed. Obviously, it was already big back then. But then when I started back with Scott Engel at Roto Experts back then, that's actually when I was like, not only like, oh, I'm going to dip my toe in this and like kind of, you know, whatever. That's when I like realized after about a year of doing that and seeing that, like, hey, you know what? It's not just my opinion of like, hey, I feel like I'm good at this. That like Scott Angle, who's a Hall of Famer, by the way, in our industry, that's why I say hall of Famer was like, you're really good at this. We're gonna within a year. He's like, I'm gonna give you an opportunity to be like second underneath me. And that's kind of like when I was like, hey, you know what? If like he recognizes it, then I.
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A
Think that's saying something that's awesome. That's. And like, I feel like that is what so many of us need or not. I don't want to say need, but we end up crossing paths with this feeling of just being seen, being validated. Because like, that's the first thing is like, okay, I have an opinion on a player. Does anyone care? I have rankings. Does Anyone actually want to use them. And then when someone tells you like, hey, man, you kind of know what you're talking about, you're like, oh, sweet validation. All right, we got this, let's go. We can do this. I feel like each of us kind of comes from something before we get into fantasy football. There's always something that we do before that or there's a skill that we have before that that kind of lends to being like, okay, well, Jake can actually do this and be good at fantasy football. What is the skill or maybe something that people don't know about you in your, in your background that shapes your approach towards fantasy football.
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B
So I would say running and watching my own business go to bankruptcy because I had a. I had a deli here in Virginia beach, thought it was something that would be like, hey, you know what, let's bring. My family's originally from North Jersey, just outside of New York, Bergen county area. So basically like the six Borough, like people from New Jersey and then people from New York. Hate when you say that. But anyway, long story there, I was like, hey, you know what? Let's bring a New York deli to Virginia beach because we don't have one. And I started it and then with my dad and things changed plan wise with my dad and I ended up doing everything. I was like the frontman, the business side, the marketing, the bills, the like, everything, everything, everything, everything. It was seven days a week open to close. It was also two of the more miserable years of my life because of that. But why I bring that up is to say, like, there's two aspects from it that I really apply also, like to fancy or anything I'm doing really at this point. But the one, especially for fantasy, is like, to do everything. Like, if you, me, anybody in this industry, you can't go in and be like, oh, I'm just good at wide receivers. Like, you have to be good at watching the games. You have to be good at knowing the metrics. You have to be good at knowing what matters and what doesn't matter. You have to be good at like parsing through the information and being able to present it to somebody else in a marketable way. Like what we're doing right now. You have to be at least adept at being on video or talking on a podcast. Like you have to these days, do everything. You can't get away. Fifteen years ago, back before when I started my own blog, you could do one thing, like just write really well, and it was like, cool. You might actually get a job now you have to be able to do everything. The other part of it was what's kind of like what I see a lot of people in fantasy is the sunk cost is like, I at some point saw that, like, this is failing. Like, I know it's failing. And that was what was I say was really hard on me because it, like watching your own business walking in the door every single day and being like, yep, this is. I'm eventually closing these doors forever. Like, I just knew it. But, like, the sunk cost. And, like, you see people, they draft somebody in the sixth round and they are still holding on to on the 11th, 12th week of the season. It's like, at some point, like, I know it's. It's gonna hit. It's gonna hit. And, like, it's just the sunk cost of not wanting to be wrong. And I don't think there's anything more wrong than starting a business and going to bankruptcy. That's as wrong as you can get. So understand, we're not going to be right about everything.
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I absolutely love that this is something you and I have never talked about. I was also a business owner, and we can do, like. Like how Jon Gruden has, like, the fired football coaches of America or something. We could do the failed business owners of America here. I had the same thing.
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B
Podcast.
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I had. Yeah, man. I had a couple of kickboxing gyms. They were franchises. We were doing great before COVID That happens, and then everything changes. And I was, like, doing that as I was getting into football, fantasy football, and, like, it was just so tough. So here you talk about it, walking in the doors knowing, like, the sunk. That's amazing. Like, that you just, like, triggered something in my brain that I hadn't thought of. And I had been in those exact same shoes. So I love that for. For a listener or for a viewer to hear that. There's something else that you and I also have in common, which. I mean, this one's a little bit more obvious between you and I. For anyone that knows me. Anyone that knows you. We love nerd culture stuff. Pop culture, talking movies, shows, animation, comics. Yeah, right. How many. Okay, question. Do you keep a catalog of your Funkos? How many do you have back there?
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No, I used to. I used to use the app to try and see if, like, I wanted to just sell any that I have hidden now because there are some. As if you're only listening, I'm pointing to it on the video. There's some that are actually behind the ones that are in the Front now, because the collection, this started out as being like, to go back to like, hey, you need to present yourself. Well, marketing is originally had the white wall behind me and I was like, I'll buy like eight Funkos. And then that was a long time ago. And it snowballed from there. Like all sorts of everything behind me. I think I probably have upwards of Funkos. But then that's not even accounting for all the 60 to 70 other items that are not Funko related. I think your better question should have also been because Nicole was right about this one. I was completely wrong. Somebody asked me at our church, married cg and they're like, how many crossover fun T shirts do you have? And I was like, I don't know, 50? And Nicole was like, no, you have over 100. I'm like, no, do I really? We went home and counted. By the way, they're also color coordinated. 120 plus. I have more. I could go through an entire year, twice a week wearing a different T shirt and not have to repeat myself.
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A
This is amazing. Okay, we need to get these things cataloged. Maybe we can even like cross reference by Funko and T shirt and see how they all intersect. Oh, now we're.
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B
Now we're like, chart that out.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Oh, yeah. Like, I'm still in eighth grade. I never got out. I'm still there.
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A
Yeah, we just. We have this like Arrested Development. But honestly, I think that kind of just makes us fun. Like, man, like it. I love just still being a kid, like, when I can be. Yeah. You know, it's one of the things that I. I like to think of is, you know, we all have sort of a skill that we have in this business or this industry, this game. Right. What's your superpower that you have that, like, is, I would say, special to Jake Seeley, but that anyone listening or watching can be like, oh, I think I might have that too. And I can use the same thing.
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B
So I'm glad you added the second part because the first thing would have been like, I was just having fun with chat GPT a couple months ago, and I don't know if anybody's ever seen my Avi on Twitter. Well, X. Whatever. On Blue Sky 2. Yeah. I was like, what would Jake Seeley. I actually put that in there. I was like, what would Jake Seely be as a superhero? And it may be the ranker and like, that's where that image came from. But to say that is like, that's not really something that, like, hey, everybody can do like. I mean, people can rank whatever they want, but, like, maybe not. Well, I think the better one, when you had me thinking about this, I would say kind of like a Charles Xavier, is that I can kind of get into people's minds and I say get into their minds of like, knowing what they're looking for in players when it comes to trades or values. Like, how to talk it up for a few weeks, knowing my end goal is in two weeks to try and trade for a player. But I started two weeks before that of kind of like planting these. Like, hey, I see that you need this. And I think that you were high on it, like, remembering what happened in the draft, making notes of like, these are the players that bid. You know, they kept going back and forth with me on this one player in an auction. Those kind of things of like, remembering how to, like, work trades. Because I think that's a really underrated aspect, is that I like, I think I'm. I think obviously, but I think a really good trader. But I think it's because I look for those avenues of trying to figure out what people are thinking. So I think the superpower is like getting in people's minds. Minds Xavier Wise, that's why.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably a more underrated aspect of fantasy football that a lot of people don't think about is the intangible side of just knowing the people in your league, being able to talk to them. Because, yeah, the draft is important, but it only sets up oh, so much. Everything else is going to be the moves you make afterwards. By the way, I think I'm recalling now, you've used this on me before, where you've been like, hey, man, I know you were trying to draft this guy back in our league. You really wanted him.
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B
Why don't we make a trade?
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So, yeah, that just reminded me. No training with you in flex league now.
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B
Great.
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A
So, okay, I'm gonna stick with some of the nerdy stuff here. And I swear, for those of you who aren't into this, that this is gonna be the last thing. And it will. We'll really get to the. The meat and potatoes, fantasy football boring stuff of this. But every character or story has like a catchphrase or a quote, right? There's, may the force be with you. I'll be back. Or, you know, I gotta. I gotta bring in our boy Darkwing Duck here. Let's get dangerous. So if you have. If you had to choose a quote, let's say this is going to be for the thumbnail of this YouTube episode. What is the Jake Seeley quote, your. Let's call it the golden rule for fantasy football. What would it be?
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B
So I can't say life is like a hurricane. I can't reference DuckTales for that one too, besides band kickers, because that's not really the thumbnail. That's just like, everybody should know that about me by now. I think there's two, like, I would lean into. These are my two biggest ones that I've been really trying to hammer home over the years. But first, this wouldn't be the thumbnail. This would kind of be number two. But don't buy all the risk really comes into avoiding the hype and just being like, oh, I gotta get that guy where he has no upside of where you drafted him now. Like, now he has to be breaking every record that he could possibly have in his career just to return value. As Barkley is really upset about that. The biggest one, I will say is stop wasting your bench.
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A
Okay?
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B
That's the biggest. I think that's the biggest mistake people make in fantasy is they waste their bench. And why I say waste their bench is because when, when you draft players to hit your bench, obviously the first one or two is going to be somebody that's probably a starter. Like, you know, because there's buys and everything like that. But also once you start your bench, you are getting into like, hey, like, these are still good players. It's after that, it's Those next, usually 4ish spots, depending on the size of your league, is that I see people drafting like, well, I know I can use them during the bye week. Or like, oh, he's going to get seven points per game. Like, those guys are wasteful because you can find them every single week on waiver wires. Your bench after those first or two fill ins, because that's what they are. Again, those are good players because we're still Talking about the seventh, eighth, ninth round, even 10th is after that. It should be. Guys, is there a path for them to be a top 20, top 25 player, running back, wide receiver? Is there a path for that quarterback to break out and be top 10? Baker Mayfield last year, Is there a path for this guy to not only get in my lineup, but be so good he's in there every single week because he broke out? Because if there's not a path to that, if it's just. And I'm sorry, demario. Douglas. Demar. Oh, Douglas. There you go. I can do it for like, I had to do it on your show. Like, I like, oh my God, he's getting eight points a week. Whoop dee doo. Like, I'm sorry, Demario Douglas, that you're just never going to be a top 20 wide receiver. But you know what? Kyle Hamilton, the rookie, maybe it happens. Like, that's what you have to do. And I think too many people draft these waiver wire replacement level players and hold on to them on our bench because they're like, yeah, you know, whatever. No, it should be upside on your bench.
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A
Yeah, I think that's something that I, I hear and see so often of like, yeah, I know this guy's going to get a bunch of like, like a Wandale Robinson.
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B
Right.
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A
He's just another variant of Demario Douglas. Right. Like, we see that all the time. And I think that's something that a lot of people forget is your bench. You should be going for upside like that. That's, that's the whole reason to have the bench there. It's not to have 20 starters. You can only have X amount of starters in your lineup. You don't need more of those. You need someone who can actually make a difference for your team. So I think that's something that's super important. That gets left out a lot with people.
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B
I love that you bring it up too, because 140 targets for Wandell Robinson last year and was still eight points per game. Like, never, never will touch my team.
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A
Yeah, like, you just don't need it. You don't need it. And so many people focus on floor. I think that's just like a life thing. I think that a lot of us have just been conditioned to find what's safe, you know, just go after what you think, like what you know. Right. Fight the devil, you know, versus the devil, you don't. And so it's so much easier to be like, yeah, well, you know, Wanda, he's gonna get me like a nice eight or nine points. And I always hear people saying, I just want consistency. And I'm just like, like, my g. There's not much consistency in fantasy football. Like, that's just not how it works. So, you know, ride the wave, I guess.
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B
I tell you what, if you have a consistent eight points at every single position, you're not losing. I mean, you're not. You're gonna be losing most weeks, right?
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A
Yeah, Honestly. So, you know, it's funny because, like, we're talking about this conversation. I had these conversations with my friends too, because they're like, well, you're in the industry you gotta know, you know what, what goes on. Right. Give me all the secrets. And I think there is sort of a gap in, in the knowledge base. And I would say not because someone who's not in the industry doesn't understand, but because I think a lot of people that play simply don't want to know the information. They just want the answers. Who do I start? Who do I pick up? Who do I draft? Don't tell me why this guy is good. Like, just, just tell me that he's good and I'll go pick him. I tr. Like, trust me, bro. That's my source. How do you try to balance that? Because people are just going to want the explanation. And so how do you give people, I guess, what they want while trying to teach them what they need?
- [23:48]
B
Yeah, so like, I used to, when I first started, it was very much like, check the link. I have a check the link T shirt that I made that's behind me because it was like, should I start blank or blank? And it was like, genuinely like, go check the link. I have the rankings there. But the part of the reason behind that is kind of what you're saying. It was like, and I don't want to say, like, I'm wasting time, but like, I don't want to waste my time answering a question that's very easily. Like, you can just go get the ranking. Give me more to teach you. Like, I want to. Like, I want you to be able to stop asking me questions. Like you said earlier in the show, like, I want you to become as good as a fantasy football player. And if you're better than me, then kudos to you too. Like, that's the job here. We're teaching. So I try to, over the years, since when I first started, even going back pre athletic, I try to listen as much as possible. And especially when I started at the Athletic because people pay a subscription, I felt like I had to answer every single comment. But as much as that has put a lot of work on my plate because there was a couple years there, it was like a thousand a week per week. Like 10 straight weeks of a thousand questions. I've tried to learn a lot from that of like, what are the most common questions? Why are the people asking this to your point here is that it's not just, oh, I see you have player ranked here. Player ranked here. But why? So it's kind of that for me at the Athletic, like, I try to answer every single comment because those are the people that want to learn and those are the like, they're trying to get deeper into it, but also where I say the people who don't even ask questions and where I've kind of tailored it to is kind of quick hitty. As you know, I. There are times, like there are articles I write that are 1500, 2000 words, 3000 words. And like there are the audience. You bring this up. Like there's the audience who goes to that. They want it. They're reading it in June. Those are the. But in sickos. Yeah, they're real sickos and we love them. But that's honestly not the vast majority of our leader slash listeners and Chris Harris have been on his podcast and I think this to you talk about like, how did I know? Like, one of the biggest compliments I ever got is that Chris Harris told me my waiver column is his favorite, like his favorite waiver column out there. I'm like, holy crap. It was Chris Harris, potential hall of Famer, that just saying that to me. And it's because it's like very quick hitty. It's like I give you the rankings list of waivers, but like right next to them, it's like five to ten words of like, this is why now jump in the comments. You want the paragraph explanation. You want more? You want to explain why I like blank more than blank. I'm here for you too. But be able to get that quick version where it's like, hey, I see how you have ranked, but you also gave me just like a little brief, like little synopsis of why he's there. So I kind of fulfill that need without having to make you sit there and read a two hour article.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah, I, I love that, man, because I've read your waiver wire article numerous times and it is also one of my favorites as well. I'm not just saying that because you're here and you know, and no free ads, but I'm gonna say it anyways. Like, one thing that I've noticed, one of our, you know, fellow companies here in the industry, the ringer, they have their fantasy football guy that they do for the draft every year and they do this cool thing where they do it like skim peruse, deep dive, and they have three different options where you can get like a one, like a one liner, two to three sentences, and then here's the full paragraph, right? And it's like, that's kind of cool because you have sort of a different, almost like a different temperature of steak for everyone that's coming in trying to, you know, get Their. Their analysis.
- [27:12]
B
As long as it's not well done. No, no, no, no.
- [27:14]
A
Sorry, people in the comments. Yeah, that thumbs down are coming in right now. That's okay. We didn't want your thumbs up anyways. So, you know, we talk about this trying to teach people, but also just trying to give them answers. And I think what has become way more prevalent in fantasy football nowadays has just been data. Data pouring out one direction and the other, whether that's from analysts themselves or honestly, just even in the fantasy league group chat, someone just throwing out numbers and things, you know, left and right. Have you found that there is a concept or a data point or something that either fantasy managers, fantasy analysts maybe misunderstand, or maybe they do understand it and they just rely on it way too much to be like the skeleton key that solves all of our problems?
- [28:04]
B
Yeah, well, I would say it's kind of twofold. I would say metrics as a whole kind of gets inflated to. What you're saying is somebody throws out this thing and like, oh, explosive rate, blah, blah, blah, blah. By the way, Ryan Heath has proven like he has a whole article on the metrics that matter and don't. And I even did an article about the same thing position by position, years ago, five, six years ago on the Athletic. And the truth is, the vast majority of metrics, on an actual fantasy points production basis don't tell us much at all. There isn't a very heavy correlation. Most of them sit in, like, the 0.1 to 0.3 range, which is basically like, you might as well throw it out the window. And two of the bigger ones. And you see, I know you see this because it gets tossed around a lot. Explosive rate gets tossed around a hell of a lot, especially the past year or two. The other one that I've always said is missed tackles per touch, because there's. First of all, you're relying on these sites that are reporting what they see. And what's the definition of a missed tackle? I mean, you could say the guy got slapped in his chest with an arm and kept running. Is that a missed tackle or is he actually in the grasp of somebody? Zach Moss had one of the highest missed tackle rates coming out of college. And everyone bananas for Zach Moss. And it's like, Zach Moss is Zach Moss. He's a replacement level running back.
- [29:16]
A
We know that's not right.
- [29:17]
B
See, and I think those are the two biggest ones. But I think that whether you're coming for those two or not, it's just the inherent of, like, I use metrics. I use it a little bit different than some people who are super metric heavy. I use it to usually tell what I see for people that, like, maybe don't watch football the same way or don't understand what I'm saying. Like, oh, he finds space well in his routes. Like, then I'll bring up the separation rate. So, like, kind of like, gives you, like, oh, hey, I know that term. And it kind of helps explain what I'm trying to convey. As I see. Just because to your point, I think the buzziness of metrics kind of clouds things a little too much in general. If you want to use it to tie break. If you wanted to use it to explain, like, hey, player versus player in this one area. But it shouldn't be like, oh, Blank has an explosive rate of this. This running back has an explosive rate of this. Obviously, he's better that, you know, it's that one aspect of his game. Yep.
- [30:14]
A
Yeah. And that's funny because my. My last episode, very first episode of this podcast, I had Sigmund Bloom come on, and not a lot of people.
- [30:22]
B
Great way to start the show, by the way.
- [30:23]
A
Right? Yeah. Not a lot of people know this, but Sig is actually a. A lawyer. Like, he. That he. He passed the bar and everything. Like, he is a barred lawyer in the state of Texas. And it's funny, he kind of put it as. You know, when you're looking at these players, you have to be able to look at all spectrums of the case, right? Like, not. Maybe not guilty and innocent here, but, you know, from like, just a bus to a fantastic pick. And I think that's what happens is so many of us take these data points that we think prove our case, and we'll be like, well, here's data point number one. Data point number two. Data point number three. This guy needs to be on your roster. And then we'll, like, we'll tweet that out and we'll be like, man, I just cooked with that. Wait till the likes start coming in. You know, it just feels like that just. That's become sort of the. The culture. And a lot of people that play fantasy football like it, and they latch onto it too. So it's just like, data is a very helpful thing, but it can also be one of those things that without the context, we sort of lose the reason we're using it in the first place.
- [31:26]
B
100, 100. Which is why I like to go 50, 50 and 50 watching. And what I believe, to my knowledge, watching the game 50 metrics. I think you. I think they need to go hand in hand.
- [31:38]
A
Yeah. I mean, 100. And like, I know that there are people who will have like a bias where maybe they'll lean a little bit too much into metrics or too much into film or, or whatever it is. Right. We all have maybe like a small bias even. It's just like a small one. We'll say, oh, this guy was a first round draft pick. Those guys tend to be successful. Or this running back's too small, he's more likely to get hurt. Or this wide receiver is really fast, he's going to have explosive plays. Do you find that you end up having even a little bit of bias where you're like, I definitely lean towards this type of player. Even if it's just like something as simple as workhorse running backs, that running back is going to get a ton of volume. That. That's my type.
- [32:18]
B
I mean, I do love volume because it helps offset the inefficiency. Joe, by the way, last year. No, I was wondering if you're going to bring up the one that is mine. Like, I'm a sucker for run quarterbacks and it's just because that's fantasy. Like, you know, if we want to have a whole separate discussion about, like, maybe we need to Nerf running quarterback statistically, like for fantasy, because it's so overvalued and overpowered. Op, there you go for another nerd reference there. If you want to go with that, like, I get it, but as of right now, like, you know, I'll fall into the. Hey, it's not just the rushing upside. It's also the fact that they extend plays. Like, I'll admit this is one that I got completely wrong. I thought there was a chance Malik Willis could be an NFL quarterback. And you know, coming from Liberty, coming from a smaller school is like, okay, you know, maybe this is somebody just got overlooked. Go all the way back to like Victor Cruz. And I know Victor Cruz had other issues too, but like, to just go down that path of like, hey, he's just a guy that didn't get the opportunities, didn't get the big schools really went like off at Liberty and looked amazing. It's like, hey, maybe he's got enough here. Maybe he's got enough here because of the rushing upside and because he can extend. And so far to this point, I mean, we might not even be talking about Malik Willis on NFL roster anymore. So that's the thing. But I'm always going to give quarterbacks that run a chance. And I'll even say that right now. Like I don't think. And you can call me an idiot when week eight rolls around and it's not true, but I don't think there's a chance in the world. This Colt situation is an open competition. I put that in quotes. Even though Daniel Jones can run, but you, not only you bring up the first round, you really think the Colts want to admit they're already wrong in Anthony Richardson? And then if Anthony Richardson was like just at quarterback. I'm still going to draft Anthony Richardson as a high end QB2 because if he's even starting 14 games, I know I'm getting a top 10 performance. Because you don't have to throw to be a good fantasy quarterback if you can run that much.
- [34:11]
A
I mean, Justin Fields is still out here getting starting jobs and being tossed around in dynasty trades like it, it happens, man. I, I remember I said that when the, when the Colts signed Daniel Jones, I was like, oh, okay, good. That means the starting job is locked in for Anthony Richardson.
- [34:26]
B
Yeah.
- [34:27]
A
And a bunch of people came at me like, no way, you're crazy. And listen, you and I can both maybe die on this hill and we could end up being wrong on this. But I think I'm with you here, that this is, you know, a first round quarterback and that's what teams tend to do is that they're maybe have that sunk cost fallacy a little bit with their first round quarterbacks. But yeah, it might go on there a little bit longer. Speaking of that, you know, like there's. It's tough. I know that in our industry there's going to be times where we are going to go against consensus. Sounds like you and I are maybe going against consensus there on the Anthony Richardson thing. But I know it happens not only with people in the fantasy space, but with people playing the game. Whether it's you're drafting a guy two rounds too early and the rest of your league dogs you for it, or you spent too much of your fab on that one waiver wire pickup. Samajp Ryan. And then you just, you, you. You're going against the grain while everyone else is doing something different or maybe what the app is telling you to do different. How do you handle that? Like what's, what is. What's the mindset? What's going through your head? Is it just simply like I gotta find outliers. I gotta do something that sets me apart from the pack? And do you have like maybe a specific time that it Paid off for you?
- [35:38]
B
Yeah. For me, it comes down to. And I'm not trying to sound. Because I don't know how to word this as I'm going through my head about to say it. I wasn't even going to say this initially, but it's like believing that my fantasy football or my NFL knowledge in general is that good. And that totally sounds conceited. But, like, the thing is, it's just like, you know, it's not just watching football.
- [36:00]
A
Listen, man, that's. That's never going to sound conceited. You are in an industry where you are supposed to understand the game of football. If I went, like, if I went to an accountant and he's like, I don't know, man, numbers really aren't my thing. I'd be nervous. So, like, I'm glad, you know, maybe.
- [36:14]
B
Do your taxes elsewhere.
- [36:16]
A
Right, right.
- [36:16]
B
I think I could do these myself. Hey, that's a good comparison, though. Like, maybe I could do these myself. A lot of people out there, but, like, I was going to bring that into. Is like the projections, like you bring up at the beginning of the show. You're talking about, like, one of the better rankers. And like, mine aren't like, on fantasy pros. That has to do with, like, athletic rights and stuff like that. But anyway, point being is like, still ranking, still one of the better projections. I believe part of the reason I built the projections spreadsheet, I would wish it could be better, but as of right now, that's all we've got. Because I'm not a. I'm not that computer savvy when it comes to programming. But it's like, you could take my projections and change them. Because I believe what I've watched, I believe. I'll give you an example. You said when it's hit like last year, Bucky Irvin and Brian Thomas, I nailed both of those last year because I sat there and I said, the talent and the talent, and I built that into my projections. I said, I think the target share is going to represent the fact that Brian Thomas can be the best wide receiver in this team. I believe Bucky Irving is going to take over at some point. I'm going to give him this much of the touches and the stuff like that. But if you don't agree with me, you can go into that. And I'm not trying to promote the projection system. I'm just saying this like, that's how my brain works, is like, I evaluate the talent, I go to my projections and I work back and Forth and back and forth. And I go through both probably about three, four times each before I finish with my rankings and everything, I go all the way back to. I'll give you two examples of players that just had nothing to do with projections. David Johnson, when he came out of Northern Iowa, like, I was high on him and his talent and his situation. And it hit for a few years until the injuries. Another one was Michael Thomas, who I was kind of so, so on. And then his landing spot, being with Drew Brees in the way that he's used in that Marquise Colston role when he first got there was like, oh, my God, I'm moving him up just because of the landing spot. I've also gotten things wrong. I was like. To point about, like, the landing spot. Like, I was like, oh, C.J. anderson. Any running back worth their ilk in the NFL next to Peyton Manning is going to be good, right? CG Anderson was not like.
- [38:15]
A
So I think we all made that.
- [38:17]
B
Error, but it doesn't always work. But, like, that's how I'm going through it. Is that, like, it's coming down to, like, the. The two factors, Kind of similar to our conversation before about the metrics is I'm working both back and forth and back and forth because people have asked me that about how do I come up with my rankings. And it's like, I start with my gut, go to my projections, come back to my rankings, go back to my projections, go back to my. And then by the time I go three or four times through, then that's how I come with my. My outcome in quotes.
- [38:42]
A
Yeah, that's. I mean, that's awesome because I like that you. I like that you go back and forth. And it's not necessarily that you don't trust yourself, but you learn something new every time that you go through these things.
- [38:53]
B
Right?
- [38:53]
A
And that. And this is also a fluid thing, right? Like, so much. So much happens throughout the summer, throughout preseason, even just week to week. Things change in training camp all the time. So I. I love that you do that. Now you got to talk about being wrong. For example, about C.J. anderson. Right? How do you. How do you take that back with you, like, going into next season? Or even if you're wrong about starting a player one week, how do you go back and say, okay, like, what was. What's the process now to figure out why I missed? How do I fix this or try to avoid it? Obviously, it's impossible to avoid being wrong, but, you know, what are the steps that you Try to take.
- [39:32]
B
Yeah, and that's a really good point is you know you can pull Malik Willis into this and be like, hey, I was looking through rose colored glasses and Malik Willis. I was only giving Malik Willis the best case scenario, like not associating everything that, you know, I brought up his weaknesses when I had in my pre draft profile and maybe I didn't look at Those enough. The C.J. anderson situation is not just saying, you know what, it's just slap some dude that's an NFL level running back next to Peyton Manning and think that everything is going to work out like gravy. So I think it's just really saying like it's. And I can't give every answer because here, what I'm about to say, it's, it's just one overarching answer. It's that when you have something that goes wrong, you need to go back step by step and be like, what got you there? So like Malik Willis got me there by only focusing on the positives. CG Anderson got me there by only focusing on. Let's just put a running back next to Peyton because it always works. You know, last year if you could go down the list of like I'm trying to think like last year I was about to say like I'm trying to think who I went wrong with last year. I know I went with wrong on plenty but oh, like, like Gabe Davis actually from two years ago. Is that like that one? It's interesting and I think this is a good examination of what you're asking here. Is like Gabe Davis from the two, three years before that or three or four years before that when he had that crazy touchdown rate and it was like, okay, he'll get more. We understand the touchdown rate won't continue, but as long as it's even 50%, he's still going to be like everybody was drafting the top 25 wide receiver that year and I didn't have him quite that high. But I was on board just like everybody was. But where did the entire industry go wrong on Gabe Davis was forecasting him forward. Not understanding that Gabe Davis game is limited to what it was that even I brought that up and said his game is limited. He's basically Nate Washington. But it's fine because they'll figure out a way to make it work. And I think that's it is like figure out what got you there and what was the mistake that got you there.
- [41:32]
A
So that's a perfect example of the context that goes with the data because I remember I remember the Gabe Davis hype, man. Like, a lot of it was, you see how many yards and you see how many touchdowns, and it was like, well, it wasn't a lot of catches. And then it was the people who could add the context to the actual player profile or player profile and like, what can he actually do when he's on the field? Those are the people that kind of got to avoid that landmine there. You know, it was actually helpful, you know, so this is interesting. We talk about looking back, we. Let's. Let's take a moment here to kind of like talk about fantasy football. We've been talking about it now, but to take a look at fantasy football going forward, right? And one of the things, you actually mentioned this earlier, Chat GPT, you. You kind of just said that very casually, but AI has become such this hot button issue that even just saying those two letters emits some sort of visceral reaction, either really positive, really negative something, but you get a reaction from people. There's a lot of questions about how it's used, whether you're in the industry or whether you're just a person at home. That's like, you know what? I can probably just type this into Chat GPT and it'll tell me what the best draft, you know, course of action is from the 11 spot here in my draft and plug in all my settings. So what do you use or do you use AI for anything? What do you use it for? Like, do you see a good use for it in fantasy football? Obviously, I think we can. This goes without saying, not replacing people. Right, Right. But do you see a use for it?
- [43:04]
B
So, yes, but so far the only thing I use it for, if anybody's followed my account, is to make pictures of Nicole and I into things like pirates and anime. And that's the perfect uses for it.
- [43:14]
A
That.
- [43:15]
B
That's all I've used it for. DuckTales was the very first picture I made of us, because that's all I do right now. But it's funny you say that, because the inherent pushback as creators in this space like you and I, the initial was like, I don't want to even touch that. And I don't want my company to touch that because I want my job. In five, 10 years, you saw the blowback that happened in the industry from a situation which honestly was just a poor wording of what they were actually doing with it. And that's why I say, I think, yes, it can be used. What they're actually talking about doing over at the athletic is because I just brought up the comments earlier on and we're working on something to be Jake AI ish. Like you're talking to me, but like the AI version because it's not supposed to replace me. You're like, if using it, the very first thing, if we get it to work is going to be saying like, this is like getting Jake's information, but it's like we're just pulling the information. I think of AI like ChatGPT and is understanding what it actually is. It's almost like Superpower Google search. It's gathering everything it can learn on the Internet. It is learning. It is not giving you the actual answer. It's going out there and finding everything it can to learn and tell you back what it found. And it's kind of like the quick way to get it. And so the thing would be to alleviate some of my comments to get to more answers of like, who does Jake have ranked higher? Easy. Boom. AI can do that. Who does Jake have higher in projections? Boom, easy. Did Jake talk about this player in waivers? Boom, there's you go. He had him at 6 and this person's at 15. Pick that guy up first. Easy stuff. And that's kind of where I think AI could be beneficial. Is it kind of to go to your point way earlier if you are the. I want this and out. I don't want to spend more than five minutes. AI is for you.
- [44:57]
A
Yeah.
- [44:57]
B
The next step is that, well, why did Jake get to that? Why did Alfredo get to that spot where he has that opinion? That's where you still come to us. That's still where you read our work, listen to us on podcasts and stuff like that. So I think AI is inevitable. Thanos. I can put my glove on. I think it's inevitable. But I think still understanding, you know, what I'll compare it to is like, you've heard this. I know. I say you as in everybody listening group think in fantasy football is that you're going to get possibly to go back to my thing about don't buy all the hype is that you're going to get like. The group think is like, what are the most common things people tell people not to do or to do in drafts. That's good information. But it's a group. It's learned it and it's telling you what everybody says as a commonality.
- [45:42]
A
Yeah, I listen. I. I have had my own ups and downs in the relationship with AI where like, when this first became a thing, I was like, I am begging people to watch, literally just one movie. Like, just watch a movie and you'll. You see how this goes. And. And I. My wife started to use it to the point where she was using it almost every day for work because she does, like, business ops stuff, and it is just. Yeah, it's such a time saver for her. And the more I've looked into it and the more I've realized it, which, like, by the way, guys, the secret's out. Like, pretty much every company in every industry is using AI in some form or fashion, and they have been for a long time. It's just now becoming more well known because of things like chat, GPT, and the apps are a lot more easily available. But this has been something that's been used for a long time. And the way I see it, Jake, is very similar to how you said it, where it's basically an extension of yourself, where it's a tool that you have that it's almost. It can almost be like your own little personal intern. That's how Sigmund Bloom said it. Yeah. It's kind of like the intern at the company that does all the work that no one wants to, like, just. Just let it do that. So I've. I've just. That's one of the questions that I've had on every show sheet is because I'm just so intrigued to see how other people look at it because it's almost become this. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but it's become this weird boogeyman that everyone is talking about. And I. I feel like we. We need to discuss it a little bit more. That actually, it makes me think, you know, where fantasy football is going in the future. But I was sitting around with my friends the other day, and we were. We're all in South Florida, and we're Dolphins fans, and we're talking about. After the John New Smith trade, we're talking about Jalen Waddle, Tyree Kill, Devon Han, and a bunch of these guys. Just. It was. This is gonna sound so rude when I say it, but it was fun to watch the casual person just speak about fantasy football, someone that's not ingrained in this every single day and just, like, discuss it. And made me remember, like, a simpler time when I was just playing fantasy football and not worried about my rankings or the next article or the next podcast or who's the sleeper. I was just like, I like this guy. I'm gonna draft him first round. That's where I'm going with it. If you could look back at Jake Seeley from, let's say, one of the first years you were playing fantasy football and how you looked at the game then vers. You look at it now with all of your different experiences, what would you say is the biggest difference?
- [48:12]
B
It's funny, like, so the bench wasting comes to mind and that of, like, that's something that I used to do because it would just be like, oh, I'm just going to go down my rankings. Who's the best player left? Boom, I'll take him. Well, you know, that's like, where he would rank at the end of the year. That's not necessarily the best case scenario. Or maybe I just have a bunch of backups instead of somebody that could potentially be a breakout candidate or whatever. But, like, as you're saying that, you kind of made me think of, like, to go back to earlier of not buying all the hype. The reason I bring that up all the time is because I used to do it because I wanted to look like the smartest man in the room. Like, that's the thing. Like, even back then, first thing is I got started in this industry is because I think I'm the smartest. I'm still today think I'm the smartest. But I've also learned that, like, I'm not always the smartest, but also, like, just because I don't get somebody that I've been hyping up the entire preseason is okay. Like, you know, like, I'm gonna sit like, like, bring up Brian Thomas last year as a good example. You know, you could still have gotten him at the end of August, like, seventh, eighth round. But, like, if I'm out there, I'm like, but I got to get Brian Thomas. I got to get Brian Thomas fifth round. Oh, I'll give you an example. I'll give you one word that went wrong on that to give you, like, Jahan Dotson. Like, I was like, man, Sam Howell is a terrible quarterback, but he's going to throw a ton. And Johan Dotson is somebody that I fell in love with because I love the way that he ran his routes and got open his ability and all that type of stuff. And I was a big fan of hitting. I was. Alan Robinson is going to be a dude. You know, all the Penn State wide receivers, year after year, they're like, they had like three or four in a row, and I was like, there's. They're dudes coming out of Penn State. Jahan Dotson he's going to be another one of them. And I fell into that. But because of that, it's like, I don't. Not only am I the Johan Dotson guy, and I put that in quotes because I was. I'm one of the most wrong on Johan Dotson of anybody out there, but because of that in the flex leagues, which you're now a part of, this is actually, I think predating you in fleet flex leagues is that it's like, oh, I'm drafting in the sixth round to make sure I get him because he's going to be on my team because I'm gonn about him. I don't care that he's going in the ninth round, taking him the six because I know somebody else is going to try and take him before me. And I want to look like the smartest dude in the room. And I think that's the biggest thing is like to your guys having that conversation. It's like everybody, everybody wants to be the smartest. Everybody wants to find all these diamonds. But I think that often leads to, to go back to my full point from before is don't buy all the risk just because you want to be the smartest guy in the room or woman.
- [50:26]
A
Yeah, I, I mean, I honestly, like, that might be the thumbnail right there. It's just like, don't be the smartest in the room.
- [50:34]
B
That's a good one.
- [50:35]
A
That's maybe too many words for the thumbnail, but we'll figure it out. I'll throw to chat GPT. There you go. So, you know, like, we, we talk about the way, like our thoughts have changed and how we look at fantasy football, whether it's from the first time you played to now in the industry, what's one thing that you wish you could see more of, of or see a change in the fantasy football space. It doesn't necessarily have to be someone that's an analyst or anything like that. It can even just be in regular home leagues, managers, the way that they, they set up leagues, anything like that. What is one thing that you wish you could see more of or see something different?
- [51:10]
B
Well, I'm never gonna stop until Band kickers is officially 100%. I'll do it.
- [51:15]
A
I knew it.
- [51:16]
B
But no, I don't see that. But everybody knows me at this point, so I'll say this is, is. It's not just the Band Kickers. Like, you know, I, I've mentioned other things on my podcast and stuff like that being like, I really think that wide receiver, tight End should be a flex spot instead of tight end only just because especially the buys like just tight end. The tight end from 10, 12 years ago is not today's NFL. Just like 1012 years ago. The running backs and the wide receivers are more balanced. All this that but like so more trading. There's all these little things, but I think the biggest one is band kickers always comes with a second part. But I think I would implement the second part no matter what across the board. And I've done this in the flex leagues. You've know, add a second flex, just a second flex spot. Whether you play with two wide receivers, three wives, just a second flex period. Just because. And I know that's not going to be capable for like the most casual your office leagues or something like that because those are the ones you just like fun and like. Though you can find great value still on the waiver wire in week five because half the teams aren't paying attention. But like if you're listening to this podcast, you are playing with people in your leagues that you should be playing with a second flex because it absorbs more of the waiver wire. You can go for more of your guys for like whatever team building you want. If you want to say I want to lean into running back heavy, I want to lean into wide receivers, I want to play two tight ends because I took Brock Bowers. But you know what? I'm going to blow up the position and screw everybody over and take Trey McBride too. And now I have two of them and I can start two of them. Like it just gives you flexibility in your roster, it gives you flexibility down the road and it just absorbs more of the waiver wire where the smarter managers more often than not should end up building these smarter teams, as you've seen.
- [52:52]
A
And I think beyond that, on top of building the smarter team, I think it just takes a little bit of the luck out of that starting lineup. If you have a six man starting lineup and one person goes off like, well, there you go, that's your win. Last place team. Congrats. If you have a few more flex spots, you know, it changes everything. So yeah, I love that.
- [53:10]
B
My favorite thing a few years ago in my home league was that the team with Alvin Camaro on that five or was it five or six touchdown game, game lost. Because he just like the most of the rest of his starting lineup didn't do great and he just faced somebody who like had pretty decent numbers down the board.
- [53:25]
A
That's great. Okay, man, last question and then We've got some, some fun listener mailbag questions here for you when it's all said and done. When Jake Seeley hangs up his check the link hoodie at the age of 98 and says, you know what? I'm done with fan. Yeah, you're gonna be doing this for a long time. Sorry, pal. You're, you're, you're Wolverine. You're Hugh Jackman. You're gonna do this till you're 90. When you finally hang it up and you're no longer doing fantasy football analysis. What is one thing that you would love for everyone to remember about you and your time in the industry?
- [54:04]
B
I know this is going to sound like I'm not telling the truth, but it really is like short. Like, like the greatest ranker ever. The greatest football, blah, blah, blah. The greatest waiver column of all time. Like hall of Fame. No, honestly, just as I think people have seen now because I incorporate fun rankings in every single week of my seasonal column. I just hope it was fun because I think the deeper you get into it, sometimes that's what gets lost is that just. It's a fun. Like fantasy football is going to be frustrating. Fancy football is going to be fun. Disappointing. The ups and downs. There's luck involved or whatever. But I just hope that like, at least I like, entertained you along the way too. That's why, you know, I show my true colors. I show my stupid T shirts and my Funko pops and my stuff behind me and still act like I'm a 13 year old and laugh at that's what she said jokes and stupid fart jokes and stuff like that. That's why Nicole is the best wife I've ever had because she laughs at the same stuff. Like, I just hope that you're smiling along the way, even through the losses and you just remember, you know what? But Jake wasn't always right. Sometimes it came off as a jerk. The all in heel Persona that was around for a little while, I definitely learned that that was a bad choice to lean into that. But at least like, it was entertaining and fun and you never left. Leaving like Jake was just like, oh, it's just something else I could find anywhere else on the Internet. I don't even know why I'm listening to this guy.
- [55:23]
A
I'm so glad that you said that. You still laugh at that's what she said jokes. Because as you're saying, as you get deeper and I was like, oh, nope. Oh, no, don't say it, don't say it.
- [55:36]
B
Hold back for a Bit I legit. I, I, I texted my boss, I'll say it right now. I texted my boss and he's like, too, too many balls in the air in a slack group chat. And I just texted him a Michael Scott gif. Nothing else.
- [55:48]
A
Just the little, like, finger guns. Oh, man. I, I do think, man, whether it was, whether it's tomorrow or it's 50 years from now, now, I think everyone will remember you as a, a fun guy that had a good time. And honestly, I love your outlook on not just this, but on life. And it's a game about a game. We should be having fun like, that we, we shouldn't have to take our jobs. So we should take it serious enough that we're good at it because that's what people need and want. But this is still a game. It still should be fun. All right, so we got a couple questions here from some people that you know very well, actually, some, some fellow industry peeps. And first question is from Jay Felicio, who asks.
- [56:34]
B
I didn't look. I didn't look. I forgot you were asking questions.
- [56:37]
A
This is a funny one. This is, and this is going to take a little brain power from you. Comprised strictly of members from the fantasy football industry, who would you choose to be a part of your survival crew in an apocalypse scenario and why?
- [56:52]
B
Oh, my God. Well, Jay's out because he asked the question. So, like, you can't. Like I said, like, so that's, that's fairly, I would have to say, not just because he's a friend and former boss and been with me for a long, most of the time, but Nando Defino mostly because also he thinks so outside the box that, like, you would need one of those people that, like, really just kind of like, doesn't see or sees what nobody else does. Like, oh, you know, why don't you think about, like, giving the zombie an apple? And it works. That's just like something stupid he would do. Like I just say, like, you know, you know exactly what I'm going for. Like, like, I could just see him being that guy. I would think I would have to go because he's technically in the space is Eric Young, the professional wrestler.
- [57:35]
A
Okay.
- [57:35]
B
Because we need some muscle. We definitely need some muscle.
- [57:38]
A
Another flex. Yep.
- [57:39]
B
Yeah, yeah. Which eliminates Chris Meaney because now I have my Canadian, so I don't need two Canadian. That crosses that off the board. As much as I love Chris, meaning I love it.
- [57:48]
A
This is like the Olympics. Like, you just get one from every.
- [57:50]
B
Country, just one from Everyone, that's it. That's it. I would say, oh, God, this is gonna be so mean. I just thought of this off the top. So Joe Dolan, if you haven't met him, Sizable dude.
- [58:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [58:05]
B
But if, like, we need to eat somebody.
- [58:08]
A
Oh, God. Oh, God.
- [58:12]
B
Joe would last a really long time like that. Like, he's got muscle. Like, he would be able to, like, really go to battle for us at an apocalyptic scenario. But I'm just saying if, like, somebody was the first to go and provide for us for a couple months, we're not.
- [58:25]
A
We're not getting the skinny dudes. I get it.
- [58:27]
B
I get it. So what I got Nando, Joe, Eric Young, Emery. Because he's probably the smartest guy in football I've ever met in my life. So he's. Yes. Emery Hunt is one of my favorites. Like, to go back to stuff you said before, if I ever have an opinion on a player and it's like 180 from whatever he thinks, I will go back and check myself. That's how much, like, I believe in myself. But I also believe that Emery's probably got the greatest mind that there is.
- [58:53]
A
You know, I remember that Emory was one of the guys who was like, I've got Jameer Gibbs ranked as running back one in that draft class with Bijan Robinson. And. And there were people of like, that's crazy. That's absolutely crazy. And. And whatever your opinions are now on these players still, guys, we just saw it this past year where Jameer Gibbs even in a split role through. I mean, if you count week 18, running back one in fantasy. So it's just like, man, you can learn from anyone, but listening to anyone a hundred percent.
- [59:24]
B
Like, I don't think he gets enough credit for that. Like this. So, like, we've got. Let's see. So we got Nando outside the box. Emery, Mon Muscle. Muscle Battle. But also, like I said, like, the first person to get, apparently. Yeah. So we need the entertaining person. So it'll probably come down to Rich Freebar or Ian Harditz, because any laughs I need to be enjoying myself out there. I'll say, I love you, Ian, but I think I give Rich the edge because Rich is a lot like us. You know this. And I think, like, you know, I'm bored one day and we're just sitting around whatever campfire we can make. I could talk to rich about 16 bit video games and that'd be the next three weeks of what we're talking about. Like that just so he would be the guy That I could entertain. I would put you in there, but you're hosting the show. So, like, I already eliminated you. I eliminated Jay. Yeah. Like, people like. Yeah. So there's my five. As I thought through it, it took a lot more time than I thought that was going to be.
- [60:19]
A
I love it. This is the part that people are going to fast forward to. Jake, don't worry. Right? This is what.
- [60:24]
B
See if they're on the list. And now, like, I just. By the way, I still have the wrestling. I still have the Jericho. Oh, man. Did you watch wrestling? You watched it?
- [60:34]
A
I did, I did. I watched it a lot when I was. I was in the attitude era. That was. That was my time.
- [60:39]
B
So, like, you knew Jericho then.
- [60:41]
A
Yeah, I know.
- [60:41]
B
But you also, like, after that with the. You just made the list. See? Yeah, there you go. There you go.
- [60:49]
A
All right, let's. We're gonna finish this up on the final question, and this is gonna be some parting wisdom for. We've given advice to people that are playing fantasy football, but now some advice to someone who is maybe looking to get started in the fantasy football industry doing what we do. This question comes from Joey Wright. So what is that one piece of advice you would give to someone trying to get started?
- [61:13]
B
You know, I bet you people would be like, why didn't Joey Wright make the list? He's a good one too. For the entertaining fact we wouldn't get anywhere because he would talk to every single person that was still alive and we would never get anywhere. So anyway, love Joey Wright and his outfit.
- [61:29]
A
He'd be. He'd be an easy mark.
- [61:31]
B
Oh, he'd be like, yeah, looking through the. Oh, got that guy, like, done. He's not making it past day one.
- [61:37]
A
Like, bright tiger print jumpsuit. Like, no, he's. He's out. Yeah.
- [61:42]
B
One of the most entertaining Uber rides I've ever had with that guy. But for. For anybody, the people trying to make it in this industry, I will say for similar to what you're doing, what I'm doing is find you your voice and what makes you different because there are legitimately a million people trying to do these. These days. It is way different than when I started. I fortunately got in before it got so, like, overbearing, Honestly, if you're. If you look, I say that overbearing is like, if you're looking to get in, right? Like, you're like, where do I go? Like, so one is like, find your voice and what makes you. You. Like, you talked about metrics before. If you are a Metrics person. Like, don't take what we were talking about and being like, oh well, I gotta rethink everything that if you're the analytics kind of metrics type in numbers type of guy, you can lean into it. Don't like pigeonhole yourself into that being your only aspect. But don't. I guess the biggest thing is like, don't try to be something you're not. Like, I'm not going to be that guy. Like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna get every reader there is out there because I'm not sitting there and giving you an article only purely about all the best metrics and what these mean and talk that all jargon and everything like that. Because that's just not to meant. Like part of what I've leaned into is as you see, incorporating pop culture and stuff like that. But the other aspect of it is like lean into that as for your content, but also to try and make it into this industry. Network, network, network, network. And don't stop ever networking like to this day. And you know this in like just because you're in the flex leagues now. Like, I only met you through networking with somebody else. Yeah. And one of the coolest dudes I've met over the past couple of years. And like, I say not to be like, toot your horn because I'm on your podcast, but like leg, there are people in Flex this year that I've never known until the past 12 months. And I'm saying that this is also going to sound conceited, but I could say like, I don't. Do I really need to meet anybody at this point? Like, I'm the senior, right? At the Athletic. I'm not saying to be like, haha, look at me. I was like, but I'm never going to stop networking because it's not just about like, hey, what happens if the Athletic closes shop tomorrow? It's also about like helping other people make those opportunities. So you never know who's looking for you. Like, I don't get to where I am without Nando defeated. Or even David Ganos, who's not around anymore. He actually retired because I made those connections and had no idea they were looking out for me. Jay Felicio has a job now as the lead fantasy analyst at QB List. And I'm not saying like, haha, he's got the job because of me, but I was looking out for him because I've known him as a listener for my show way back in the day. Right. And that's the biggest thing. You can't pay it forward if you're not networking with people.
- [64:16]
A
Yeah, that's one of those things that. That, like, I'd be lying if I didn't say, like, I'm not getting something from this show, but I am absolutely getting something from this show by being able to talk with so many different. Like, I'm becoming a better fantasy analyst by doing this show, like, even just in this. I think it was, like, the second question. I'm like, man, you just sparked something in my brain that we were both business owners, and that's such a different way to look at this. You learn something from everyone. Like, one of my favorite things that my dad has said is, you know, even in business is you can learn something from the Jam Janitor. Like, it does not matter. Like, get out there and speak to as many people as possible. Get to know as many people as possible. I think that's something that does get lost, is that this game that we play is about community. It's about meeting people. It's about coming together, even though there's a competitive spirit to it. Like, you do look out for one another. You do love one another, man. And that's. That's big. That was. I didn't want to get too far down the love rabbit hole there because that's. That was last. Last episode with Sig. That was. That was an hour and a half love fest. It was beautiful. If you guys want to go check that out, go check out that podcast as well. But, man, Jake, this has been awesome. This was so much fun having you here. You were a phenomenal guest. I can't thank you enough for being on the show, man. I really feel like the audience gets to learn something new. I learned something new. I hope you enjoyed yourself as well. And before we head out, why don't you just let everyone know what you're working on, what you got going on over at the Athletic.
- [65:37]
B
No, first, I want to say thank you. Like, I saw the list of people before you even talked to me. And if you're only listening to this podcast, like, make sure you listen to the rest of them, too. Like, I've seen some of the names that you're going to be talking to, and, like, I would listen. Well, I am going to be listening to them and, like, the networking and stuff like that. It's a tremendous thing to do. Pat Mayo did this, like, five, 10 years ago, and it's. I always think it's one of the most valuable things. So kudos to you. For doing this. Like, seriously, thank you, man.
- [66:01]
A
Thank you.
- [66:02]
B
And definitely high praise coming. I appreciate that. But at the athletic. Yeah, our draft kit's going to be coming out soon. I'm doing the breakout series right now. I know people watched it. Like, I just shrugged at it. But like, I want to say because like, like all of those opinions on there, like, I'm going to promote it again, is why I shrugged is like that, that, that cheat sheet, you, if you want to call it, it's the customizable projections. Because I'm not going to be 100% right. I say that all the time. So, like, if you want to see, it's not just your league settings, but if you want to see, hey, Travis Hunter is going to play too much corner and I'm only going to give him a 10% target share. Even though Jake has him for 20. You can change that and see how it affects the rest of the team. And then you, boom, you have your rankings that you made off of everything. And that's why I. You promise promote it so much.
- [66:45]
A
That's awesome, man. I'm excited. This is one of these things that this show I, I was about to say I'm excited for this season, but this is, this show is like an evergreen thing. So someone might be listening to this in the middle of the season, right? And they're like, oh, this is dated. But I am excited for the season. I am excited for us to get back to some football and well, I'm really appreciative that you're able to come on today and take some time. And as always, I want to thank everybody for watching or listening all the way, way through. And for myself, for Jake, I'll see you next time. Adios. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.