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Breaking the Cycle: How Fathers Shape the Mental Health of Black Boys | Dr. Alvin Thomas
01:03:33
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- [00:00]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Just not talking about fathers. Wow. People just not even thinking about fathers. Fathers were the appendix. As one of my guests on my podcast has said, fathers were like the appendix of the. Of the family. It's okay if you have one, but it doesn't matter if you don't embrace those experiences. There'll be plenty of time for the difficult conversations, for the hard lessons.
- [00:24]
JoJo Simmons
You're right. We're raising more than just our children. We're raising the children's. We're raising the children connected to our children. And I think a lot of people do misinterpret that or let that fall on deaf ears or, or blind eyes that like the kids that my. My kids are talking to. I'm also help raising. Van Damme. Like God damn Van Damme. Van Damme. Stop playing with them. Stay woke and drink Van Dammes. Today's episode is sponsored by Van Damme's, the luxury energy drink that keeps your grind sharp and your vibe clean. Premium energy, no crash level. Up your day with Van Dammes. What's good, everybody? It's your guy, JoJo Simmons. And welcome back to the For Good podcast, where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured by what we do, not what we have. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Alvin Thomas, clinical psychologist Robert, researcher, professor, and the creator and host of the Black Fathers Pulse podcast. His work centers on positive youth development, father engagement, and resilience in black families and communities. We dive into his journey, what accountability and fatherhood really mean, and how he's working to shift narratives and create lasting impact for children, families and communities. This conversation is all about responsibility, purpose, and doing what's good in ways that truly matter. Let's get into it. Dr. Alvin Thomas, thank you, brother, for coming on the fourth good podcast.
- [01:56]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate the invitation.
- [01:59]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, you know, we love to hear the For Good podcast. Obviously, we love talking to all walks of life, but we always love doctors. We always love people with knowledge. That could give us some more information here at the For Good podcast, because this is a community of learners, right? A community that wants to learn, a community that wants to hear good conversation. A community that wants to hear about positivity. So, you know, you fit that narrative, man. You. You're definitely down the lane of being a for Good guy. So let's jump into it. You know, for the people that don't know your journey or who Dr. Alvin Thomas is, how would you introduce yourself and who you are?
- [02:32]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I mean, I try to think of what the audience is. But I think just a very general introduction would be that I am Caribbean by origin. So I grew up in The Caribbean, in St. Lucia, very small island. Went to Morehouse College and eventually on to University of Michigan, Ann Arbor for my master's and PhD in clinical psych. I am very interested as a Caribbean man. I taught elementary school, middle school, high school. So I was an educator by profession before coming to the US and my interests were always in what can we do to make sure that we can speak to and can highlight the best possibilities for our children? How can we highlight and support their given potential, their God given potential, that is their innate abilities? And so when I thought of clinical psychology, I wanted to understand what were some of the challenges that were making it difficult for black boys especially, but for black kids in general to succeed? What are some of the challenges in the school system, in our general society, in the home, in the child that might be preventing our children from living their best lives for want of a better freeze? And so I kind of studied for a while what this maladaptation would look like. What are some of the challenges for these kids? And then trying to think of what are the best resources. And fatherhood came up as one of the resources, underused resources in almost every family. And trying to figure out what are some of the challenges that fathers were facing, the barriers that they were facing institutional and otherwise, and figuring out how we could pull together all of those resources while we were aware of the barriers in a way that's going to best serve our children, our country, our futures, ourselves.
- [04:33]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. Oh, I'm loving this conversation already. And first of all, quick shout out to Morehouse. I didn't go to Morehouse. My co founding partner of three is four of who produces this podcast is a Morehouse man. He graduated from Morehouse. I did enjoy a lot of your homecomings, I will say. He invited me to put it on. So I did get to enjoy Morehouse. I didn't have to do the studying, but I got.
- [04:56]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Homecoming at Morehouse is quite the thing.
- [04:58]
JoJo Simmons
Oh, it's the greatest. You know, I will say this, and I want us to keep the conversation going, but you know, me not going, but also. But being a part of it through my friend, my brother, I would call him, I loved just seeing the black excellence. I love seeing black people with Spelman connected to Spelman and seeing the black women, the black young men, the way that they made you guys dress in suits. And just a lot of those guys that I met through my friend are Very successful or on their way to being successful or have good heads on their shoulders. And I think a lot of it is attested to that College. Right. I think there's a lot of great colleges. But a good HBCU like Morehouse really inspired me at a young age. Being although I didn't go, it made me, like, kind of want to go. Like this feels like my people. So big shout out to Morehouse. Big shout out to all those HBCUs that are letting black people shine. So I'd love to know what inspired you to focus your research on and work on fatherhood, youth development and resilience, especially in Black communities.
- [05:56]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
So St. Lucia is a predominantly black culture. It's part of the African diaspora. And understanding the challenges that my students. So I would see my students, kids who were excellent. I had this one. I can still see them. They're like in their 30s now. This young man who was just a gifted, natural artist, he would sit and would just draw stuff. But the challenges that he was facing at home, in the community, financial challenges, were making it so much so that it was difficult for him to even sometimes attend school. And when he did attend school, it was making it even difficult for him to even be psychologically present when he was there to really benefit from the tutoring. And he was not the only one. He was just one of many students who were having those challenges. And so I told myself, I convinced myself that somebody needed to study this. Somebody needed to figure out what. It may not be useful for this generation, but the generation that comes after them needs to. We need to figure out what we could do to make it better for these kids. I think there were lots. I taught English language, English literature, and a number of other subjects. And I thought, lots of people can teach those subjects, but nobody's really trying to figure out what are some of the other dynamics that are coming into play and how can we fix those dynamics. And. And I started in the US and at Morehouse as well. I volunteered in a number of reading programs and after school programs, both at Morehouse in Atlanta, but also during the summer when I would come to Wisconsin with my friends, I would volunteer in camps. And I was seeing the same thing, that there were challenges outside of the classroom. I mean, they were also in class, in class challenges. But there are challenges outside of the classroom that were not being robustly considered. And what would it mean to step in in a way that was going to provide strength, provide specific skills, and build resilience of children who may not necessarily be coming from the best homes with the best resources. How can we build those skills for acquiring resources that will be useful for the education process and for, for just overall development as productive citizens? And so I thought, I need to go in and study this. And as I was studying this, I met with my clinic, my research advisor, Dr. Cleopatra Caldwell, who retired about a couple of years ago. We're still very close friends. Stay in touch. And she was doing this fathers and sons program in Flint, Michigan where she was bringing together these non resident African American fathers with their 8 to 10 year old sons and trying to work on a number of different CDC type behaviors, risk behaviors. And I thought, what would it look like to think about fathers as a potential resource in the clinical space, in the education space, in the policy space, in the social space, all of these different spaces? And as I was going through my own training, I realized we were just not talking about fathers. We were just not even thinking about fathers. Fathers were the appendix. As one of my guests on my podcast has said, fathers were like the appendix of the family. It's okay if you have one, but it doesn't matter if you don't. Wow. So how do we bring fathers front and center as part of the family system? Both. And the beautiful thing is that fathers benefit. There's health benefits, psychological benefits for fathers when they're involved front and center in nurturing their children, in supporting their families. But the benefits are also ripple over to mom and to the children and to the entire family system. And yet we continue to not involve fathers in those spaces.
- [09:59]
JoJo Simmons
Wow. You know, me being a father myself and having a great father, having known you've done your research on this and you really dug deeper and studied, this is like, it's amazing because a lot of fathers are overseen sometimes and a lot of fathers do feel like the appendix. Like you said, it's good if you have one, but doesn't matter if you don't. And that's kind of how through jail generations it's kind of been seen, especially in our culture. It's like, yeah, great. If you have one, that's like an accomplishment. If you have one.
- [10:25]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Exactly.
- [10:25]
JoJo Simmons
Like a badge of honor. It's like a trophy. If you have a father in the black community. And if you don't, it's almost like a norm, right? It's like, oh, yeah, well that's kind of normal, right? And that's the stereotype that a lot of other cultures put on us. It's like, you probably don't have your father. And it's because it's been normalized in the black community, that I don't need my dad. I have my mom, and I can be strong without my dad. And it's. It's very. You know, you're getting real deep here. And I'm loving this conversation because this is a needed conversation, because fathers are important, especially ones that show up, Especially ones that want to show up and be around and be there and be present. It's important. So, you know, yeah, man, your work is amazing. Yes.
- [11:05]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Now, I would challenge that assumption as well. I would flip that and see while the treatment of black fathers, especially, but fathers in general is like the appendix. If you have one, great. If you don't have one, doesn't matter. You can survive. That is the treatment. That's the story that is told. That's the narrative. A pernicious one, mind you. But on the ground, what we know is that black fathers remain the most involved.
- [11:39]
JoJo Simmons
Yes.
- [11:41]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
There's a long history, all the way back to chattel slavery, where black fathers remained involved in very many cases. They were not available to be resident fathers, so they couldn't live in the same home because of the circumstances and the structures around chattel slavery. They weren't able to physically be in the home, but they remained involved. And I think today, not. I think today we have the same thing. You have fathers who don't necessarily live in the same home as their children for a number of different reasons, positive and not so positive reasons, but those fathers still remain involved. Our systems don't capture those fathers.
- [12:27]
JoJo Simmons
Right? Yeah.
- [12:29]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Because the father who is providing financial support, providing nurturing and emotional support, and showing up for t ball games even though he does not live in the home. There is no system set up to capture to identify those ways that those fathers are involved. The systems that we have capture things like child support. That's a legal avenue. Capture things like welfare. Those are legal avenues. Child custody. Those are legal avenues. And so where are all of the fathers who exist outside of those nations? Avenues where all the fathers who are currently picking up kids and dropping off kids. I have a ton of friends, a lot of them Morehouse alumni, Morehouse brothers, who are extremely involved in their children's lives right there. And we're not asking. They're not asking for a parade to be thrown in their honor for doing what they're doing. And yet they are never included or represented in that narrative of the black father who is not present, the black father who has abdicated his role. They're not represented in that narrative.
- [13:48]
JoJo Simmons
So speaking about These stereotypes as we jump into it, how do you think that we change that narrative of those stereotypes that we talk about?
- [13:58]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Sadly, we have to talk. We have to make the conversation about fatherhood more normal. So this conversation helps to normalize it. Fathers talking about their experiences. So I have, I was just reading one of my Morehouse Brothers Facebook post and maybe that says something about me, that I'm still on Facebook. Maybe we're all still on Facebook.
- [14:24]
JoJo Simmons
I'm still on Facebook.
- [14:25]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Oh good. That makes me feel much younger then. So on his Facebook post he's posting about the temper tantrum that one of his twin daughters was having and talking about the basic silly things like I think her temper tantrum was around that she couldn't, she couldn't differentiate that her dad was also her mom's husband. And so going back and forth with this argument, he, that's my dad. And the mom was saying, well, yeah, but that's my husband. No, no, no, that's my dad. And not recognizing. And those simple, beautiful connections, those simple, beautiful affirmations are not conversations that are very normalized, not very open to the public. And I think part of creating and changing the narrative, of reclaiming the narrative, because we have to tell our own story. People have been telling our story for generations. We have to start telling our story and telling it very loudly. So part of telling that story is men, black men, talking about their fatherhood challenges, talking about their fatherhood triumphs and creating space for those narratives to exist.
- [15:46]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, you gotta, we have to control our own narrative and not let anybody else tell the story for us. What does healthy father engagement really look like in practice, especially for fathers still learning or repairing past mistakes?
- [16:00]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
That's an excellent question. And that could look very different based on the specific dynamics of that fatherhood, fatherhood relationship. So you have some fathers, like I said, who are non resident, they're not physically sharing space with the child. And that healthy engagement would look like part of the co parenting agreement. When is a kid with me physically. So either they're at home with me on the weekend and I take them back to mom or to grandma or whoever else during the week. I might send text messages, might send little videos. Use social, not social media, sorry, use, use technology to connect, to create space, to share similarities in the things that you like, the things that you enjoy, the things that bring you joy. One guest on my podcast said of fatherhood, of parenthood, that it is a blessing to be able to, to relive a second time, to re. Experience for the first Time everything that you've already experienced.
- [17:18]
JoJo Simmons
Yep.
- [17:19]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
So that first time you tasted ice cream, you get to watch your son or to watch your daughter taste ice cream for the first time and see their eyes brighten and see the joy, see them make a mess of the ice cream. And you remember when you used to eat your ice cream from the, from the bottom of the cone first and watch them come figure that out for themselves. You get to watch your child go to school for the first time with their big backpack and their oversized shorts and their brand new shoes and covered with Vaseline and greased down and shiny. You get to see them come back from the first time dirtier than a rugrat, even if you sent them to school super clean. You get to experience all of these first. You get to see your child jump into the deep end of the pool for the first time. Embrace those experiences. There'll be plenty of time for the difficult conversations, for the hard lessons. There'll be plenty of time for figuring out how to navigate the challenges of color, of finances, of relationships, of all of those challenges that according to Shakespeare, are the million shocks that life is heir to. All of those will come. But find time to enjoy life, Enjoy the simplicities of life with your child. Whatever that means. I'll give you this one an easy one. I had a kid in therapy with a dad who was healing from his own fatherhood challenges, his experience of being a son. And one of the things he said to me was, my kid keeps coming up to me with these different soft things, these emotional things, and I don't know how to handle them because I've never had to handle them. I just kind of deal with it for myself. You just man up and you keep moving. But I have a nine year old who's coming to me crying. I want to tell him, man up. But I remember my dad telling me, man up. And that didn't help. That didn't help me. And so I don't want to give it to him, but I don't want. What do I give him? Because that's all I have.
- [19:37]
JoJo Simmons
He doesn't know anything.
- [19:38]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
He doesn't know any different. So he was like, where do I learn this? I said, perfect, that's why we're in therapy. And so we started doing some of that work with him. Another thing he was arguing was, I don't have money to take my. I want to take my kid to go see a basketball game. All of those kind of Instagram kind of moments. I want to take my kid to Go get a hot dog. I was like, your kid doesn't want all of that. That's you. You think that these are the things that people want you to have with your kid. Your kid loves playing basketball. Go down. Go down the street to the court and play basketball with them. Play trash can ball. You have a trash can in the house. I know you do. You have lots of people. If you don't have any paper, check your mailbox. They're going to send you ads that you could crumple up together and play trash can ball. The experience, the joy of being able to do something as silly as that with your kid, what it means, your kid is going to remember that. So find those. You don't need anything complex. Be present.
- [20:45]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [20:45]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Be available. The two things. Be present and be available. And by present, I mean put your phone down, put it on silent, turn it over so you can't see it when it lights up, so that your kid cannot see it when it lights up. So when your kid looks at your face, they see your eyes see staring back at them, and they know they have all of you. Be present. Be available.
- [21:13]
JoJo Simmons
Deep. For real. That was great. How can society create space, though, for fathers to take accountability while also recognizing their growth and potential?
- [21:24]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
So I think there's a lot of new spaces that are opening up, and we won't necessarily. We won't. I have concerns about the motivation behind it. People generally say, follow the money. So I have concerns about the motivation behind it. But we're in an era, we seem to have stepped in, an era where there's increased interest in fatherhood, there's increased interest in masculinity in the lives of men. So that's great that there's some interest in there. Why the interest and to what end is a different question. But the fact that there is interest means that there is now space for creating something different, creating something new. And there are a lot of men, a lot of groups that have formed that are interested in creating different conversations about manhood, different conversations, healthy conversations about what fatherhood looks like and how fatherhood is represented. Find those spaces, and if you don't see a space for yourself, create a space. There are lots of individuals who are not necessarily men, but who work with men, are connected to men, and are interested in the health of men because they see the benefit to families in general. Those individuals can also be. I don't like to use the word allies, but. Because people use that so loosely these days. But those persons could be good collaborators, good partners in helping to expand the conversation. Where we need to see this interest go is towards policy change. And people are not yet quite interested in policy change just yet. Because I think we're still stuck in these 1950s way of thinking about masculinity and about men, that men are only providers and protectors. Men are providers and protectors, but that is not the only role. And provision does not only look, does not only show up in this one sided way. Financial provision, and that's it. There's emotional provision, nurturing. Those are different elements tapped into different elements of the humanity of men, of the humanity of fathers that allows them, one, to be able to bring that humanity without judgment into the fathering space, into the family, and two, allows them the freedom to experience it for themselves. Because a lot of men have not experienced their full humanity, have not experienced the full gamut of their emotions. They're stuck in these very tight constructs of what we think masculinity looks like. Even policy is difficult to enact because even men themselves believe the narrative that men don't need to be supported. As a man, if I need something, don't worry, don't worry, I got it, I'll make it happen. My family needs help. That's my job. I'll make it happen. Even if I have to go to jail, I'm going to make sure my kids are taken care of. Who says that you have to go to jail for your kids to get taken care of? There are supports that can be found, there are supports that can be created without your child having to lose your presence for provision. So on a societal level, we still do not believe that men need to be helped. Women can be helped because women are quote unquote weaker. So women can be helped, children can be helped. Men don't need help, men don't need support. Men should just figure it out. People don't just figure things out. People have to get support. That's what humanity is about. That's what society is about. Society is a group of people who have similar beliefs, similar ideologies, who decide to work together for the benefit of all.
- [25:46]
JoJo Simmons
And that's how most of us men feel. We don't feel supported, we don't feel loved, we don't feel needed. We don't, you know, we just feel like we're used for one or two things and that's it. So to say that, you know, we, I think it's starting to come out in the, in these times that men are starting to realize we're the only ones that don't have any help out here. We're the only ones that is told to keep it moving. And that's supposed to be normal. So, yeah, that was, you know, you just cooked up right there, Dr. Thomas. You cooked up. I need that one. Your research highlights the influence of environment, neighborhoods, and systemic factors on children. Which of these factors do you think is the most overlooked when we talk about the child's well being?
- [26:27]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
All of them. All of them. But I think the easiest one to work on because I think people often think, well, if you could just create some kind of social support system or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that everything will get fixed. Those are external influences. We know that before the external influences can show up. And sometimes they never show up. Sometimes nobody comes to save us. We have to save ourselves before those external influences show up. We have individuals, individuals who are subsumed in families, families that are subsumed under neighborhoods, neighborhoods that are subsumed in communities, communities that are subsumed into counties. And so a paper that I wrote many, many years ago, I think it might have been part of my dissertation, just when I was finishing grad school, talked about the concept of collective efficacy. Collective efficacy is academic jargon for it takes a village to raise a child. That's what collective efficacy is. Collective efficacy is knowing that Ms. Brown down the street, who is sitting, knitting or sitting, watching, just enjoying, enjoying the fresh air of the afternoon, and Mr. Joe a couple of houses down, that they have the same values or similar values as your parent. So if you're walking down the street, Miss. Miss Whatever her name was, I just gave. I forgot already. She is. As you're walking down the street, she. She's watching you and she's expecting you to say hi, to say good afternoon or good morning. And she's watching. And she knows who you are. She knows who your parents are, what your parents stand for. And if you're walking down with a group of boys or group of kids and you're being rowdy, she might say something to you. She might be, why are you so loud? Because she feels a sense of responsibility for you. And Mr. Joe down the street might call out to you, hey, how are you doing? How's the baseball going? When was your last game? That sense of community or collective efficacy is something that we have lost. Let me not say lost, because it makes it sound like we're done, we're cooked. It's something that we're losing and losing very fast because everyone one of us on the same street is stuck behind our screens behind our curtains and drapes and behind our padlocked doors.
- [29:16]
JoJo Simmons
You're right. I can agree. I think growing up, even being younger, it was more a sense of community on the blocks. It was more a sense of, you knew everybody on that block, every family. You knew what they did for work. You knew, you know, you know, if it snowed and you knew they were on vacation, you'd shovel their, you know, you'd shovel their alarm for them. You'd make sure they got in their driveway. And I think we are losing it. Like you said. I want to say, like we're cooked, but we definitely don't have that sense of community anymore where the elders can hold our kids accountable even when we're not present to do that if we're working or we're busy. So yeah, man, you, you, you, you making me think for real, for real. How does, how does honesty, even when it's hard, play a role in building resilience in children and communities?
- [30:01]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I think still part. We can extend it from this sense of collective efficacy. So Mr. Joe on the corner sees you with your friends roughhousing, and it looks dangerous. And so he calls out to you and says, hey, you can't be doing this. You have to conduct yourself better in public. And you go home and tell your mom and, and your mom comes back and cusses the heck out of Mr. Joe and says to him, you don't talk to my child. You see my. Leave my child alone, my child, you dirty old man. Blah, blah, blah. It's an understanding that you as a parent are not being honest with yourself, right? That you cannot always be physically present, that as independent as you might want to think that you are either independent man or independent woman, grown man or independent woman, that you are not self sufficient, that you cannot do everything, you will not always be there to protect your child, that the protection of your child is beyond just your house, it's beyond just yourself. It includes the individuals around you. So that's a piece of dishonesty to yourself. And you have now taught your child that sense of dishonesty, that the only person who matters, the only view that matters, the only right that matters is mine.
- [31:38]
JoJo Simmons
Right?
- [31:39]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Wow. That is not how the world works.
- [31:41]
JoJo Simmons
It isn't.
- [31:42]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
We have to return to that level of honesty and humility that recognizes that without each other, we are nothing and we are going to be blown away like dust.
- [31:54]
JoJo Simmons
So when it comes to these communities, what would you want to see in these communities when it comes to more support or protective forces like what Would in a perfect world, even though we will never get a perfect world, but in a world that you envision, what would you like to see in these communities be put into place?
- [32:11]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I would like to see families that are interested and demonstrate that interest, honestly demonstrate that interest in the full, the full display of their children's potential. Families that are interested not just in their children, but are interested in all of the children. So I'm interested in my son, but I know that my son is connected to other children. And so I have to be interested in them because whether I want to or not, those children are going to be in my house. Maybe not physically, but they're going to be in my house. Because my child, when he or she interacts with those children and is coming back with messages, is coming back with ideas, and that's what I'm going to have to deal with. Worst case scenario, the child that I do not support is the child that's going to break into my house, is the child that's going to mug me, is the child who I'm going to hear was killed. So a lot of the crimes, a lot of the deviants that we hear, some of it falls on us. It's the children that we think, well, that's not my business. I'm going to take care of mines, I'm going to make sure that my children are doing well. That's not my business. Those not my business eventually becomes your business over time.
- [33:50]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I'm heavy on, and my daughter calls me cringe, but I'm heavy on every time she's on her iPad or on the phone with a friend. Friend. Hey, who you talking to? And I, I make myself present. Hey, such and such, how are you? How's school going? How was that test that you guys just took? Because I am a firm believer in what you just said, that even though they may not physically be in your house, they are in your house because they are talking to your child. They are influencing your child. They are, you know, you know, they're talking about things, they're relating on things. And I always say to my wife, I said, we can make sure we never leave our children to their own devices, literally. Because like, yeah, we want them, that we want them to be able to enjoy this generation. This generation's new go outside is the Internet. We understand.
- [34:31]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Exactly.
- [34:32]
JoJo Simmons
But I want to always make sure I know who she's talking to, what she's playing, what she's doing. And I'm involved. I'm on Roblox. My daughter just Asked me, hey, dad, you still play Roblox? I'm like, only when you play. Like when you ask me. Yeah, I don't. You know, I don't. They always laugh at me, my nephews, my nieces. But that is my way of meeting my kid at what they like doing and what. And what they enjoy doing, but also letting them know that dad's here to support it. But I'm also here to understand what is happening, to make sure that even you, your friends, know that your dad is very present. Your dad cares about them. Like, I coach my daughter's basketball team and all her little friends, they like that I coach the team. Why? Because I treat them like they're her not. You know, I treat them like they're mine. And not to say that I'm as close to them, but I make sure that they're safe. I make sure that they're okay. I make sure that they feel heard. Hey, how was your. How was your. How was your day today? You know, if they come up to me, hey, Coach Joe, how you feeling today? How you doing? Your great game last game? I make sure that. That. Because you're like, you're right. We're raising more than just our children. We're raising the children's. We're raising the children connected to our children. And I think a lot of people do misinterpret that or let that fall on deaf ears or blind eyes that, like, the kids that my kids are talking to. I'm also help raising, you know, I may not be actually raising them, but I'm helping install morals. I'm helping instill, you know, different routines. I'm helping instill so many different things that, you know, it just makes me feel good to hear that I'm doing the right thing when it comes, because I don't. My daughter thinks I'm annoying, and I'm always asking and what's going on? But that's because I'm so present. And when she says that, I'm like, it's because I'm so present. And call me annoying all you want as long as you're not calling me absent. Right. As long as you're not calling me absent. You can call me annoying all you want. Like, as long as you're not calling me.
- [36:17]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
If you were absent, she would not be able to call you annoying.
- [36:20]
JoJo Simmons
I'd be annoying in a different way as I'm annoyed with the man that doesn't show up. Right? So I'd rather be the annoying present guy. Right? So how does your work in research, public speaking, and podcasting complement each other to create real impact?
- [36:36]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
So I recently started a consulting company, Thriving Lives Consulting. And the idea was to take this research, take this series of experiences across my life in different facets, take all of that and be able to offer it to individuals and to institutions to help us better think about how to create and support effective and healthy family ecosystems. So I don't just think about families as these individual units anymore. It is an ecosystem. Yes, it is carefully balanced, and anything could throw it off, but it's also uniquely resilient because we can keep pumping resources, and an individual could be a resource. So grandma, uncle, the coach, all of these individuals, you throw an individual in there with an additional resource, suddenly the family ecosystem looks very different. But we want to create spaces that allow families to thrive, that allows the individuals in those families to thrive. And so my conversations to institutions also surround that. And so whether I'm talking specifically about the family or about the child, or about the father, or about. Or about the mother, or about a co parenting relationship, there are these different intersecting parts that look dynamically different from any one part, and yet every single part is uniquely different as well. And so there's this beauty in the diversity that exists within the family and the diversity that exists between families. So there's lots of conversations to be had. The podcast, the Black Father's Pulse podcast, emerged out of a similar understanding, but with the additional benefit of recognizing that there's all these decades of research that exists and sit in books and journals in ivory towers, and academics meet at conferences and talk about it. And that's great in, that's beautiful. But the people who were the participants in the studies, the people who are being studied, are asking, where is this research that I was involved in? What is the benefit? What does it say about me? How can I use it? We're trying to put together a program in my community, and we're trying to figure out, has this been done before? Is there a better way for doing it? And I wanted to take that literature and say, you know what? Let's put it in language that is easily accessible to anybody in our community. And that's how the Black Father's Pulse podcast was born. Creating those conversations for individuals and then eventually starting to tell the stories of black fathers having black fathers come in and say, let me tell you the story of my absent father. Yeah, let me tell you the pain that existed. Or let me tell you what I was able to accomplish in spite of and what I am Choosing to do going forward, how I am choosing to challenge the narrative and buck the history that was passed down to me. Let me tell you the story of the successes in my fatherhood journey, the successes in my experience with my father, what that looks like. Talk about all kinds of conversations. So creating those spaces for that to happen is where most of my work sits now, both at the academic space, but also in my personal space with the podcast and my blog, the Fatherhood Depot.
- [40:22]
JoJo Simmons
Love it. You out here putting in that work for us black fathers, brother. It's me being a black father, man. This is one of my favorite conversations right now. You got me tapped in for real. I'm gonna watch this episode back a few times, but we're not done yet. We're not done yet. So for organizations and leaders looking to strengthen communities and support families, what's one lesson you'd give to them right now?
- [40:44]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
For organizations and leaders looking to strengthen families, We are all products of the history that was handed down to us at an individual level. I would see, yes, that's also true. You think of it from a trauma focused lens. The trauma that you've experienced continues to cloud and inform the way you approach life, the way you approach interactions with people, relationships. And until you deal with and process, intentionally process that trauma, until you intentionally, as a society and deliberately process that history, it remains part of you and it informs everything that you do. And so we see it that the way African Americans, the way people of color are treated are dealt with in American society didn't just show up last year or the last elections. It is part of history handed down to us. History that we have chosen not to reconcile, history that we have chosen not to deal with, that we've chosen to push to the side. And so in the same way, individuals that are running organizations or groups that want to engage fathers that want to highlight fatherhood, that want to support father inclusion, have to first come to terms with the reality of their thoughts. What are my perceptions? What are my natural perceptions or inclinations about fathers, about men, and then specifically black fathers? What's my natural assumption when I hear black father, A black dad is coming. Jamal. Use the most stagnant black male name. If I hear that Jamal is coming to the school, what do I think? Oh, Jamal. Oh, he that dude. I might want to have somebody here with me when he shows up, right? So if we spend time exploring our perceptions, our biases, our stereotypes, not say yeah about fathers, we start to realize where we need to do the work. I need to start thinking Rethink. Oh, that's how I think about fathers. That mom is the one who's going to do well. You know what? Dads also do work. Dads also are nurturing. Let me read some information about dance. Let me beef up my immunity, about the benefits of dance, about the utility of dance in these spaces, and do that first for myself. And then the next step is, how can I. So now that I've inoculated myself against this virus that we're all carrying, now I can walk into space that is full of this virus and start giving the vaccine, start giving the inoculations, start sharing the information. Hey, in our next PTA meeting, we needed to talk about fatherhood and how beneficial fathers. We're not necessarily saying we're going to do any work about involving fathers yet. We just need to address the fact that fathers are important and that we want fathers involved. And so I want my teachers, I want my counselors, I want my coaches, I want my vp, I want my janitor, my custodian. I want everybody in my school setting to start thinking, how can fathers be involved? How important are fathers in our space? And then our next meeting, let's think we're having a fair. Can we have a booth for dads? Can we have a specific thing that includes dads? Not one of those fancy kind of tokenized ways of including dance. The dad, the daughter and dad dance. And then we never see dads again.
- [45:11]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:13]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Or the dad and son fishing trip. And then we're done with dads. What about dads and homework? What about dads? And just ordinary conversations. What about when I want to call home to talk about the kid? I don't just only call mom. I also call dad.
- [45:29]
JoJo Simmons
Dad, yeah.
- [45:30]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
So even if I reach mom, I have dad's phone number. My next call, I'm calling two people. Whenever I'm calling for a child, I'm calling two people. I'm calling dad and I'm calling Mom. One, because I don't know if dad lives in the same home. And two, because every child has a mom and a dad somewhere. Yeah, sometimes the. The dad might not be reachable for a number of reasons that we just talked about earlier. But to be able, if you have the contact information, reach out to dads.
- [46:00]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I reach out on that. Us dads just want that respect, especially the ones that are present and do do more than the stereotypical thoughts of what dads do. Which is kind of going back to what you said. Like, it's funny because, you know Maybe a year or so ago, my wife went out with her friends and they were like, well, where's the kids? And she was like, with Joe. And they were like, well, you're not worried? She was like, no. Like, he does everything I do. Like, he can feed them, put them to bed, bathe them, do this, do that. Like, they're in good hands. And it's the stereotype, and I don't fault her friends or whoever said it to her. It's the stereotype of believing that's what a dad is. And if I'm being real, when I first became a dad, I kind of almost believe that myself, that that's what I was, how I was supposed to.
- [46:42]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Be, because of my divine.
- [46:44]
JoJo Simmons
That's not gonna happen. You're going to do everything you. What if something happens to me? You can't cook them a meal. What if something happens to me? You can't do. And she really made me step up and realize this is not just a dad, mom thing, a man, woman thing. This is a human thing. If you have a child, you need to be a parent. It's not a. It's not. It's not a dad, it's not a mom. You are a parent. And if you have a child, you need to do everything you need, you can do to make sure that child is protected, taken care of, and loved. Right. No matter if it's coming from two different homes or one different home, which, God bless my union, my kids are in one home with my wife and myself. But, like, it needs to be understood that this is not a gender thing. It's. It's a parent. Right. It's a parent thing. Yeah, for sure.
- [47:26]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Your kids do so much better for it.
- [47:28]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, they do.
- [47:30]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I still remember my dad's cooking. And lots of kids will tell you that they know when dad cooked.
- [47:39]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. Because we cook it so good. And then we only cook. We cook seven months later. That's that.
- [47:43]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
That's.
- [47:44]
JoJo Simmons
And I stand by that. Like, I'll make the best dinner. My wife, everybody. Like, this is amazing. Make it again. I don't remember what I did. I'll be back in eat.
- [47:54]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
And just being able to have that experience.
- [47:57]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:58]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
It just. It changes the experience of childhood for your. For your children. And it's something that they can pass on. On as well.
- [48:04]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I agree. So when you think about the next generation, what gives you hope for the future of fatherhood, youth development and family systems?
- [48:13]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
We're having these conversations like this one, so that's good. I'm hoping that in the near future we're going beyond having these conversations. I know there's the Congressional Dance Caucus led by Representative Jimmy Gomez. And I'm hoping that that caucus takes off and starts to focus uniquely and unapologetically on fathers and the needs of fathers themselves. Not fathers in relation to other people, but on fathers themselves. And then eventually start pulling in what other people could benefit from father's presence and father's skills and resources. The other thing that gives me great hope for the future is that the boys who are growing up today are a little bit more connected to more of their humanity. So they can talk about their vulnerabilities, they can talk about they're not feeling okay, they can talk about their mental health. I think we're still way behind the eight ball because there's not been a lot of coping or a lot of coaching around how to do that. A lot of it is just them just kind of pulling it from random places. But it gives me hope that we are moving the needle towards that direction. My concern is a concern that I have for most things in our society, that when we start to shift the pendulum, we shift the pendulum in the opposite direction. So it's almost always a zero sum game. So you're either hyper masculine and super stoic or hyper not masculine and weak and vulnerable. And we can't find a middle ground. We've done the same thing with the support for boys. We did. It was everything to support boys and strengthen boys in education and other spaces. And we've now switched the pendulum to everything in support of girls and how to support girls in education, education and other species. Very necessary, very vital. To have support for one and not the other is to operate on half a tank of gas, to operate tired, without all of your energy. And so my hope is that we find that balance. We have not found the balance yet with regard to gender and education. Gender, a number of other issues. And my concern is that we will fall in the same space that and I think a lot of women, mothers are concerned that this conversation about support for fathers is going to take away support from mothers. And like. It doesn't have to, it doesn't have to. Support for fathers is not an emptying of support for mothers. We can continue supporting mothers, evening it out, supporting fathers. At the same time, I think if we can put a man on the moon, if we can put satellites orbiting the Earth, if we can bomb countries thousands of miles away down to the size of one square foot tile, if we could do that, we can support both fathers and mothers at the same time. We can. Well, most. Maybe I can't. I can't clap and stamp my feet at the same time, but we can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. We can do both things. And the balance, I think, is where. The space where we have to live. And I'm concerned that we might end up going too far. Right. And essentially just replicate what we're seeing now. A hyper focus on. On maternal issues with an almost zero focus on paternal issues.
- [52:26]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. Yeah, Great answer. So right here on this Feel Good podcast, what does doing good really look like to you in your work and in your life? And how do you hope your legacy is remembered going forward?
- [52:40]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I don't think about legacy because I think legacy is one. Legacy is. It's fleeting, it's ephemeral, it's fickle.
- [52:55]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah.
- [52:57]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I expect that maybe 10 to 15 years after I die, most people won't remember who I am, who I was.
- [53:08]
JoJo Simmons
I wouldn't say that. You out here pushing the good narrative, man. And that's why I asked you, what does doing good in your work mean to you? You know, because you're doing real. You're doing good work, man. You got. We're an hour into this, you know, basically, and, like, I'm locked in, man. Like, you're doing good work. You're doing work that needs to be heard, because men need to be heard and dads need to be heard, you know, so whether black, white, whatever, dads need to be heard, you know, and so I'd love to know, what does doing good mean to you? And you're. And you're working in your life.
- [53:41]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Legacy is people. Legacy is not you. So when I think about legacy, I don't think about me. I don't think about, well, will people remember this name or what I did? I think, will there be. Will there be somebody who heard, listened, read, connected to anything that I did in some way that is better and their family is better because of that? That is the legacy. They may never be able to tap it back to say, oh, I remember this podcast that I listened to that made me change how I fathered. And now my kids are doing so well, and they have their own kids, and that's why. No, I don't. I don't think that's. Well, I can't say it's not going to happen, but that's not the focus. The focus for me is. And I think should be for everybody is. Is what can I do to leave this world a Better place than I found it. What can I do to affect the lives of at least one person? At least one person. And every day I wake up, even the days where I feel like I just want to just stay in bed, I know that I'm going to meet somebody. And some conversation that I had, ergo, this conversation, some conversation I had with them, is going to impact them in a way that I didn't know was going to impact them. And it's going to impact me in a way that I wasn't expecting that day. I will leave bettered or challenged, and they will leave bettered or challenged. That, to me, is the work of. Of every individual. If you have children, that's your work. Every day. You're doing that every day from the moment you open your eyes, and maybe even before you open your eyes, they're very young, they'll come open your eyes for you. Every single thing that you're doing is building in that child's life. But even beyond your child, even beyond your family, the thing that you are doing, if you're delivering packages, do it in a way that the people that you interact with are going to be changed, are going to be challenged. If you're working at McDonald's, do it in the same way. If you're teaching, if you're coaching, if you're the CEO, if you're a bank teller, if you're the bank manager, whatever you're doing, if you're doing here, if you're doing whatever it is that you're doing, do it in such a way that the people with whom you interact leave either better or challenged.
- [56:30]
JoJo Simmons
I love it. Now, if you could speak directly to all the fathers out there and the fathers that are watching that feel underappreciated, stuck, overwhelmed, what would you tell them right now?
- [56:43]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I said this to a father, and it's very simple. And I hope fathers hear it for what it is. Your child needs you. Your child loves you. Your child thinks that you are the most powerful, you are the most important and the best person that they've ever known. They watch you with magic in their eyes, with a twinkle in their eyes. When you show up, you see the change on their faces. Because you are the firebringer. Dad is the firebringer. Dad ignites sparks. Dad creates fires in his children. I don't care what your challenges have been. That's all they are. Challenges. Not threats. Challenges. Challenges can be overcome. You may not have the resources to overcome them. Now. Connect to people who have the resources to help you, because what you're doing is the not for yourself. This is for your child. For your child present and for the your child next year and your child every year until they become that adult and beyond. You are important. You are necessary. You are not an appendix. You are not disposable. Be present, be present, be available for your child.
- [58:26]
JoJo Simmons
Amen. Finally. Woof. That was deep. I took that in. That was deep. Needed that. Thank you, brother. So, finally, what keeps you motivated when progress feels slow or the challenges feel too big? And I know you just talk about challenges, they're just challenges. But what keeps you motivated when those challenges do arise?
- [58:46]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
I remind myself that this too shall pass. And this is just part of the journey. Just because it is difficult doesn't mean it's not necessary or it's not important or it's not possible. It's just difficult. So how can I twist this challenge in a different. Am I seeing it in the wrong light? Can I readjust it and see it from a different point, a different angle, and attack from that angle? So I could send out five grant applications and all five show up unfunded, and I could not receive grant applications or not receive requests for talks or for consultancies for two years and sit and think to myself, why did I create this thing? I thought people needed this. Why is nobody showing up? And I need to understand that maybe they're not in that space yet. And I'm creating an ark. Not because it's going to be used right now, but because rain is coming down the road, and I'm just building this ark in preparation for the rain that's to come. So I keep remaining diligent in. In building that ark. And that ark might sit there for a year without use, but I remain diligent in maintaining it. And one day that first drop of rain will fall, and before I know it, the flood will be here and the ark will show its utility. So don't give up on yourself. Don't give up on your mission. Keep building.
- [60:33]
JoJo Simmons
That was great. Amazing. Dr. Alvin Thomas, I really appreciate you coming on the For Good podcast. Before we get out of here, I'd love for you to tell people where they can find you, what you have coming up, any books, any. Any, you know, promote your podcast. Please let my subscribers know what you got coming up and where they can find you.
- [60:50]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Thank you very much. It was really a pleasure to be on the For Good podcast. We really enjoyed the conversation with you. Hopefully there'll be another. More opportunities for us to.
- [61:00]
JoJo Simmons
Hopefully I come on your Podcast.
- [61:02]
Dr. Alvin Thomas
Let's make that happen. Let's make that happen. We'll have a great another conversation. Find opportunities to collaborate. Those of you who are looking for excellent support and also content, you could find me on my website, dralvin thomas.com so very easy. Dr. Alvintomas.com if you want to book services or anything. But if you just want to just follow the content, you could find me on YouTube. Dr. Alvin Thomas again on Instagram, Dr. AlvinTomas Dr. On 758 or on Instagram with the podcast the Black Father's Pulse podcast. We have a beautiful blog, the Fatherhood Depot, that releases. It releases content very regularly. We're on Twitter, we're on Facebook. So if you can't find the Black Father's Pulse podcast, you could find Dr. Alvin Thomas or just Alvin Thomas. The podcast is on almost every major podcasting platform, Apple, Spotify, all of Those and on YouTube if you want to almost also watch the videos. Look forward to seeing all of you subscribe, of course. Go of course to the four good podcasts as well. Great content there.
- [62:25]
JoJo Simmons
Thank you so much, brother Dr. Alvin Thomas. I make sure I subscribe to your podcast and I hope that my subscribers do as well. Before we get out of here, I got to thank you for all the work that you've been doing in the community, especially in the black community, especially in the father community. It's very needed. Have never really had a conversation, conversation this deep about being a father and why it's important to be a present father, but why it's also important for people to support and show love to the fathers that are present and the ones that do need that extra bit of ear to listen to them, the ones that do need to, you know, speak their vulnerability every now and then. So I appreciate you being the one that steps up and does the research and speaks up. I have to give you your virtual four good flowers. So thank you. I give everybody those at the end of the end, at the end of the episodes when I do virtual. I appreciate you, brother Dr. Alvin Thomas. This is the Four Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad. And we're measured on what we do, not what we have. I'm signing out. Till next time, guys. It's your guy, Jojo Simmons. It's my guy, Dr. Alvin Thomas. Peace.