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Grief Isn't Weakness: Dr. Rheeda Walker on Mental Health & Healing in Black Communities
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- [00:00]
Dr. Rita Walker
Nobody really cares about them. And meanwhile, the people who are around them, who may even be accustomed to them being happy, go lucky, you know, whatever. They have no idea. They know the person went through something, but they don't know because we never really know what somebody's going through. We don't know the depth that it can hurt and touch a person. So I typically will say if they've had some meaningful loss, something that's important to them, job, finances, relationship, something that's important, and you see a noticeable turn in their, you know, how they act, their mood, usually they may look low, but for some people, believe it or not, when they really start to think about suicide, their mood increases because they have a plan. They know what they're going to do. I have a lot of responsibility for training future clinical psychologists. And the thing I say to them on day one that I know is jarring is that once someone decides that they no longer want to live, there isn't anything you can do. I think that for a lot of people, there's this pressure to save someone's life. Like, they're struggling, and I have to save their life, and I don't. If I don't save their life, I'm responsible. That's not the case. It's just. It's just not true.
- [01:13]
JoJo Simmons
What's up, everybody? It's your guy, JoJo Simmons. And welcome back to the For Good podcast, where we focus on the good, never the bad, and we're measured by what we do, not what we have. I know we touch on mental health a lot on this podcast, but today we're joined by someone who truly lives and breathes this work. Dr. Rita Walker is a licensed clinical psychologist, professor, and author who spent her career helping people understand their mental health in real, practical, and culturally grounded ways. This episode just isn't about diagnosis or data. It's about permission. Permission to be honest about pain, to question stigma, and to build psychological strength in ways that are culturally grounded, compassionate, and real. Dr. Walker joins us to talk about fortitude, healing, and what it truly means to care for our mental health for good. Let's get into it. Dr. Walker, I appreciate you. You coming on the podcast, minus the troubleshooting we had in the beginning. I thank you for coming.
- [02:04]
Dr. Rita Walker
Absolutely. I'm excited for this conversation.
- [02:06]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. So, you know, to get into it, to jump into it before all the titles and the credentials, who were you when, you know, when you first started this work and when it started calling you, like, what drew you to psychology?
- [02:18]
Dr. Rita Walker
Oh, wow, that's a Great question. And, you know, funny enough, because I was, you know, talking to Amina about being. I'm sorry, did I miss Amari?
- [02:29]
JoJo Simmons
Oh, good. Amari.
- [02:30]
Dr. Rita Walker
Amari. I was talking to Amari about being from Savannah, Georgia, and my mom had told me that I had two options of my career. I was either going to be a doctor or a lawyer. Those were my options. And we understand from parents that they want us to have, you know, the most successful possible career. And those were the only two that seemed to be options. So I thought I was going to be a lawyer for a long time, but then I had an opportunity to shadow an attorney when I was in college, and I was like, this just isn't for me. And then I ended up just going back to what are the classes that I like? What are the classes where I have books that I read for no reason, and it just happened to be psychology. Now fast forward to grad school and talking about mental health in the black community. As you know, that's not something that we really talk about. But I love being able to bring attention to the things that we either disregard or minimize or think doesn't have any relevance to us because we deserve to have full lives just like everybody else.
- [03:28]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, you're right. I agree. And I love that in this generation and in these times and ages, people are starting to talk more about their mental health, and they're starting to realize and understand how important it is, whether it's the entertainment business or the sports world or. Or just everyday working people that, you know, especially men. Right. And black men, we're starting to see that conversation has really, you know, become a thing in our culture. So, you know, super happy, you know, about that. And that's why, you know, we love talking about mental health a lot on this podcast because of that. So from your perspective as a licensed clinical psychologist, what do you think people still misunderstand most about mental health, especially with the black community?
- [04:09]
Dr. Rita Walker
I mean, I think probably the biggest thing is that we associate mental health with there just being something wrong with people. Like, why do we do that? And we actually don't even use language that's helpful. I was listening to something recently. I don't know what it was, but they were saying they have mental health, and the inference was that there was a problem. And I'm like, no, having mental health is a good thing. We don't even have the language that we need in order to have helpful conversations. And I actually introduced in my book the idea of psychological fortitude to just kind of take Us away from mental health because there's. There's just a lot of baggage whenever we hear mental, like, people's brains just shut down. And so when folks are having problems and they're having issues and they need support, they're less likely to get help because they think it means something is bad or something is wrong with them. Yeah, I don't know where that thinking came from. I mean, I know that it seems like the deck has always been stacked against black people, you know, and so when we're trying to, you know, fight to get out of whatever situation or circumstance, the last thing you want to do is to say, I have a mental health problem. But I do agree with what you were saying earlier. You know, we're starting to have more and more of these conversations, and we're going to have to continue to have more and more of these conversations.
- [05:25]
JoJo Simmons
I love what you just said. You know, what you saying, the odds stacked against us as black people from the beginning. Mental health. Although, you know, yes, many of us thought that meant it was something wrong with us. And I have. I have a way, a way to address that in a little bit. But I love how you said it just feels like another thing added on our plate. To say that you have a mental health problem. Right. To say, you know, you're already dealing with bills in everyday life and this and that and not. No access in some areas and no resources. And then you sitting there saying, now I got to add this to my plate of. Long list of things I'm going through. And I thought that was very interesting that you said that, because that's why I think a lot of us did push it off to the side as younger or our parents or our grandparents did, because they're like, not another thing. I find it funny because I watch, you know, excuse my language, but I watch it is what it is. Cam' Ron and Mace's show, and I saw cam' Ron address mental health recently, and he was like, you know, when I was a kid, if you would've told your grandmother you had a mental health problem, she slapped the shit outta you. And it's the truth. Right? Not because she didn't love, you know, her grandchild, because it made it feel like you were saying something was something wrong with you. And they were like, there's nothing wrong with you. And I. I say that to say this, I never thought that somebody would think something is wrong with the word health. This. The word health is in the. Is in it. Right? So when you think of health, you should Think of something positive. Right? You should think of something good. But when you think of mental health, for some reason, it has some type of stench on it, you know. You want to talk about that a little bit?
- [06:58]
Dr. Rita Walker
You know, it's funny when you mentioned about, you know, someone knocking the, you know, stuff out of you, if you said, you know, that you weren't, you know, feeling well, I think some of that is just like, let me knock some sense into you, you know, so it's like you're not thinking right. And so if I, if I hit you hard enough, then you'll start to think differently, which is interesting. You know, I, I don't doubt that in the black community especially, there are a lot of ways of thinking and doing things that are kind of outside what we would call the norm, you know, because we didn't always have access to what everybody else had access to. And so we have survived in ways that are different from other communities, you know, but we've had to, you know, we, we've had to. And I get it. I, I get that, you know, folks in the community have, have survived to the best of our ability. You know, there are folks and still, you know, enjoy chitlins because that was some of what folks had access to. And it's kind of like you take the worst of the worst and make sunshine, you know, like, you know, you do the best with what you have. And so I think we're starting to get into a place where we're trying to do more with what we have. But it's kind of like that stigma, that stench, it just keeps dragging us down. It just keeps dragging us down.
- [08:17]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, you know, you know, you talk about survival and that kind of, that rolls right perfectly into my next question. Like many of us were raised to just push through and keep it moving, but how does that survival mindset show up later in life emotionally for us?
- [08:32]
Dr. Rita Walker
You know, it's interesting. So part of what I do, in addition to being trained as a clinical psychologist, I'm a full time university professor and my research team is the culture, risk and resilience team. And so we look at the risks, the things that kind of compromise us and undermine our well being. But we also at our resilience, because in our community, folks just, just keep overcoming, just keep overcoming. Like no matter what's going on, we will find a way. Or many of us, you know, some folks get sidelined, but most of us are accustomed to having a culture of finding a way. Yeah, unfortunately, there is a, there's a ceiling, you Know, there are limits to that. There is, but so much you can do. And we're living in this era now where folks are talking about, you know, I don't. I don't want to be the strong one and anymore I want to live a soft life. Because we're recognizing that it is important to be resilient. It is important to be able to keep moving no matter what. It's important. But we also have to be cognizant that there's other stuff that's going to limit how far we can go. And so we have to take a step back sometimes and just. And just breathe and say, you know what? Get somebody else to do it. Because we can't keep pushing all the time.
- [09:44]
JoJo Simmons
Big on getting somebody else to do it. Speaking about resilience, how do you define resilience, though, in a way that goes beyond just being strong or surviving?
- [09:54]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah, it's being able to experience something that can be overwhelming for one person. And, you know, to be sure, emotional health, mental health, psychological fortitude, it's not the same for everyone. And so resilience reflects an individual person's capacity to experience something, maybe to experience something awful, to experience something life changing, to be able to acknowledge that and find a way to keep moving on with life. You know, with. With mental health, part of the challenge is that folks don't necessarily understand what is it like? It's. Mental health is. Is mysterious. It's a mysterious thing. But for professionals like me, we're trying to figure out the degree to which a person is able to just move through life. And so when someone asks me, you know, how do I know when somebody's really in trouble? How do I know when they need help? And I'm like, are they still able to go to work? You know, are they still able to function in ways that. That feel good? Are they able to take care of their family? Are they able to take care of their overall health? If they are, I wouldn't be as concerned about their mental health as I am for someone who is so overridden by depression and anxiety that they can't function, like, they can't leave the house. And so resilience speaks to someone's capacity to be able to experience things. Because, Jojo, we know people go through things all the time. They go through unexpected things. Sometimes they have technical difficulties, you know, you know, and it will say, you know what? We're just going to keep at it. We're going to figure this out. We can figure it out as an individual. We can Figure it out in community as a group, but just being able to keep moving despite everything that's happening around us.
- [11:33]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. And I appreciate you once again for figuring it out with me and the team in the beginning with our audio technical difficulties. It showed our resilience today, you know, it definitely showed our resilience. So in your work, you talk about giving people permission a lot, to rest, to feel, to ask for help. Why is that permission so hard for people to give themselves?
- [11:50]
Dr. Rita Walker
For some reason, I think it's the same as being able to talk about mental health. You know, that when we have to ask for help, it suggests there might be a weakness or a problem. And nobody wants to be seen as weak. It's unfortunate that we associate mental health with weakness. But who wants. Who wants to look weak? Like, that's not an attribute that any of us wants to have. And so asking for help signifies I can't do it on my own and I need somebody else. And it's unfortunate, to be honest.
- [12:21]
JoJo Simmons
Who wants to look weak? That's powerful. You know, obviously it's like something we all know, but, like, to hear it is important. Like, who wants to look weak? That is a very powerful statement. Especially black men. No black man wants to really, truly ask for help. Because we never wanna look weak. We always wanna come off strong. Because that was how we were kind of just raised to be. Was to keep pushing and to be strong.
- [12:44]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah. What role? But you know what? Can I pause there for a second? Because I think one of the things that gets missed, and I'm sure, you know, we all see it, we know someone's struggling and we say to them, well, let me know if you need something. Reach out to me if you need anything. Why can't the person who's doing okay reach out to the person that they know is struggling? Like, why do we have to wait for that person from a place of vulnerability to reach out from their place of vulnerability to say, hey, help me. Like, why do we do that? And I suspect that to some degree, you know, we're like, well, they'll be okay. They'll figure it out. What if they don't? But also, I think we question, like, well, I don't know what to do. I don't know what they need. People need basic things. Like, people want to be heard. They want to be respected. They want to feel valued. If they're hungry, they might just want to doordash, you know, like, we all got to eat, right? If they have young children, why not say, hey, I'll watch the kids for you for an hour. Like, I would love for us to get to a place in our society where those of us who are doing better than someone else will reach out to that person and offer something just. It doesn't have to be perfect, but people want to be known. People want to know that someone cares and that folks are thinking about them.
- [14:12]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, I love that. It's very, very true. And you know, quickly, this is why I appreciate and love my co founding partners of the company I run and my brothers because, you know, we contact each other weekly and it's like, yo, I'm a lending ear if you need me. Even if we feel like he looks happy, but you may never know, right? So like, I know we do it every, every, every week. Like, hey, you good? Even if you tell me, yeah, I got, I'm a lending ear for you if you need to talk to me. Not, you know, contact me when you're feeling really down. No, you know, I'm, I'm here. I'm here for you. I'm here to listen. And like, you know, you saying people want to be heard was very important because I think in every aspect, in relationships, in friendships, in business, in sports, in anything in work, people just want to feel heard and feel valued. So that's very important that you said that. And I agree 100%. What role does culture play in how people experience, express or suppress emotional pain?
- [15:12]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah, you know, if I could just maybe even briefly define culture, because we, we throw it around a lot, you know, the culture. But culture at the end of the day speaks to an individual's beliefs, their behaviors, their core values. They get passed on from generation to generation. And it's typically associated with survival. I'll say it again. It's our beliefs, it's our worldview, it's our behaviors, it's the things that we value that get passed on from generation to generation. Because our fore parents, you know, aunties and uncles, them, you know, they know that the next generation needs information in order to be able to survive. And that's why, you know, black men get the message around, okay, you know, when you start learning how to drive, this is what you do, you know, like to be able to survive the encounter. Now that's a literal example. But some of the other stuff, you know, we think about just like how we behave, you know, and I'm sure folks have been in places and you see certain kids acting up and you're like, yeah, that never would have been tolerated in my family. But some of that is just because of how, you know, in the community, in the black community, how we're perceived. And so the culture in this context is important because we learn about mental health from those who've gone on, those who didn't have the option to be depressed. Like, depression, ain't nobody got time for that, you know? And so that's what we learned from the previous generation, and that's the kind of work that we're starting to try to undo. I get it. You know, we get why nobody had time. Like, it wasn't an option to be depressed on a plantation. Like, depression, it couldn't exist.
- [16:56]
JoJo Simmons
Right.
- [16:58]
Dr. Rita Walker
And so a lot of that is still with us because it got passed down in the interest of survival.
- [17:04]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. You said before that strength doesn't always look like silence, but what does healthy emotional strength actually look like to you?
- [17:13]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah, healthy emotional strength. Well, one, having an awareness. Right. Because so many of us operate in autopilot. Like, we got a lot of responsibilities, you know, as parents, you know, running businesses. You know, like, we have a lot of different responsibilities. And because of that, you know, folks may feel like, I don't have time to, you know, rest. You know, like, that's a luxury. But to have high emotional, even emotional intelligence is to be aware of how we're feeling, how we're impacting other people, especially the people who are important to us, and to be able to make adjustments, you know, based on where we are. I was, you know, sharing earlier that I was supposed to go to my son's school this morning for a meeting, and I asked them if we could do a zoom because I'm a Southerner. I'm from Savannah. I was in Texas the last 12 years. I'm in metro Detroit now. It's snowing all the time. You not supposed to move? No. You stay home?
- [18:17]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. You not used to that.
- [18:20]
Dr. Rita Walker
And so I'm still getting used to it. And I picked my son up last night, and I felt the tension in my body. I was so glad to get home. Like, lord, thank you. We made it. And so this morning, I was like, I can't go back out there. And so I felt bad about asking for a Zoom meeting because I was the one who pushed for in person. But at the end of the day, I had to be able to say, I got other things that are important to do today, so I can't stress myself out on the road. So first I had to acknowledge and be honest about where I was. And then, two, I had to make an adjustment.
- [18:55]
JoJo Simmons
I. I love that, you know, being aware and being honest with yourself are the two most important things I think you just said about, about that answer right there. Right there. That's how you, that's how you stay emotionally strong is just being aware of, of your emotions, right. And being aware of what you're going through and giving yourself the grace, the time and the space to be comfortable. That's how, that's how I truly feel when it comes to mental health. Now, I know you've done, you know, some important work around suicide prevention. I definitely want to touch on that because that's important. Important. Without getting too heavy, what are some signs or shifts we should be more attentive to when someone may be struggling with suicide, like thoughts of suicide, I would say.
- [19:36]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah, you know, I appreciate you saying without getting too heavy because I actually don't see suicide as a heavy topic. I mean, it's one of the reasons I do the work is because I truly believe that if we have better information, we can prevent it, like if we know some of what to look for. And so as an example, the. A main kind of trigger for a lot of people is some type of loss. So like, they've had. They've lost a relationship, like a meaningful relationship. They've lost a job. And for a lot of people, their job is part of their identity. And so having that kind of loss, you know, and, and financial loss, like those kinds of really very stressful things can set off a lot of people. Now, that doesn't mean that anyone who experiences those is going to think about the end of their life. That's not the case. But if someone starts to. It seems like something about their character or their personality shifts and they seem to retreat or withdraw. They don't seem like they are themselves. It's just worth having a conversation, a conversation and saying, hey, I know you went through some things recently. You haven't quite seemed like yourself. I just want to check on you, you know, I just want you to, you know, know that I'm here and then maybe even offer to go out for, for happy hour or take them some soup. I, you know, to, to show that they are not on their own. Because for a lot of people who come up with a plan, decide that they want to end their own life, those folks feel isolated. They feel like nobody really cares about them. And meanwhile, the people who are around them, who may even be accustomed to them being happy, go lucky, you know, or whatever. They have no idea. They, they know the person went through something, but they don't know, because we never really know what somebody's going through. We don't know the depth that it can hurt and touch a person. So I typically will say if they've had some meaningful loss, something that's important to them, job, finances, relationships, something that's important, and you see a noticeable turn in their, you know, how they act, their mood. Usually it's. They may look low, but for some people, believe it or not, when they really start to think about suicide, their mood increases because they have a plan. They know what they're going to do.
- [21:48]
JoJo Simmons
I. Yeah, I appreciate you telling me, you know, thanking me for saying, don't come on too heavy, but it's not a heavy conversation for you. But in saying that, why do you think conversations about suicide are so uncomfortable for people?
- [22:03]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yes. I'm so glad you asked that, because I have a lot of responsibility for training future clinical psychologists. And the thing I say to them on. On day one that I know is jarring is that once someone decides that they no longer want to live, there isn't anything you can do.
- [22:22]
JoJo Simmons
Oh, man.
- [22:23]
Dr. Rita Walker
I think that for a lot of people, there's this pressure to save someone's life. Like, they're struggling, and I have to save their life, and I don't. If I don't save their life, I'm responsible. That's not the case. It's just. It's just not true. And so I try to, you know, lift that, you know, I guess, sense of responsibility or burden by saying, all we have to do really, is be present for another person. Now, Jojo, that takes a certain level of accountability, you know, so if I say I want to be there for someone, that means I have to show up and I have to maybe even be vulnerable. Because for some people, understandably, it's hard to talk about how low they may be feeling because it can be embarrassing. They look weak going back to that, you know, and so folks don't really want to talk. But if we can say as an example to someone, you know, I remember one time when I was feeling down and I had a chance to talk to you, or I see how you are and how you move, and I really value that and respect you. And that takes me getting to a certain place where I'm willing to share with someone how they have impacted me, how they make me feel. And so that requires some vulnerability from me to be able to do that. But there are things that we can do to build community and connect with folks so that people don't feel like they have to Fall through the cracks or they don't feel like nobody cares.
- [23:55]
JoJo Simmons
I love that you said, like, you know, as. As people, you know, you can go show that person how valuable they are. You can remind them how valuable they are. Because I think a lot of people that commit suicide feel they have no value when they get to that part. Right. And I think, and I'm not saying it's going to change anything. I don't know. Right. I've never dealt with it. I know when I was really young, I had a cousin that committed suicide, but I was so young that I didn't understand it. But I think you're right. It's showing that value and reminding them that they are a valuable person and that they have value. Because I think, like I said, once they get to that point, they feel like they're no longer valuable and they want to take themselves away from. From the earth. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is. This is. This is. This is not great. But.
- [24:39]
Dr. Rita Walker
And I'll add great. No value. And they feel like no one would care if they weren't there.
- [24:45]
JoJo Simmons
Right.
- [24:46]
Dr. Rita Walker
And. And as we know, that's never the case. You know, there's always a hole that's left, but that person doesn't know if no one's told them that.
- [24:58]
JoJo Simmons
Right. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, like, how can friends, family, or loved ones show up better? But I think that's the answer is like just reminding the person about their value and telling them the way that they've impacted you in great ways. Because that can do go a long way for people. That can make them feel like they have a purpose, they have a reason. They have a reason to keep going, a reason to keep on living. Right? So, man. Yeah, value is a huge word in this convers. For someone listening who may feel overwhelmed or isolated right now, what's one grounding message you want them to hear today? Dr. Walker?
- [25:35]
Dr. Rita Walker
Ooh, someone's feeling really overwhelmed. You know my favorite thing right now because I go through seasons of what I use for myself when I'm overwhelmed. And so right now, for me, it is about gratitude. And I think we throw that word around kind of casually, but the reality is that it's hard to have gratitude and being overwhelmingly anxious and depressed and to have those exist in the same space that, you know, when you think about the things that you know that you're grateful for. And it could be family, it could be sunshine after the snow. You know, it can be really small things. And what happens, I think for a lot of folks who maybe Poo poo, you know, gratitude. I encourage those folks to consider the reverse. And I talk a lot about sunshine just because it's. It's winter in the Midwest and sunshine doesn't come as often as I would like. And I think about if there isn't sunshine, like when it's not there, how I feel. And so for some people, it's important to think about what we're grateful for. But if that doesn't quite connect, think about if that thing or that person or that experience or that situation or circumstance did not exist. So we have it, we have access to it. How do we feel if we don't? And that might let. Or allow folks to feel gratitude a little bit more deeply, to be honest. But some of my other favorite things to recommend are, in fact, music. Music, as you know, it's immensely powerful.
- [27:15]
JoJo Simmons
It'll.
- [27:16]
Dr. Rita Walker
It'll transport you from one generation to the next, one room to the next, one mood to the next. Like, music is so immensely powerful and you don't even have to overthink it. As long as you got your playlist ready. You just hit play and go. Too often we overthink what we need and we act like we need some kind of big grandiose, grandiose sort of intervention. It doesn't take a lot to shift mood in the moment. And one other thing I'll mention, just because we all do it, is to take, you know, showers. Some folks, you know, prefer baths. Day or night, I don't know, it doesn't really matter. But to be more present in the moment for. For those showers. A lot of folks jump in the shower and go straight to work thinking about what they have to do that day, who got on their nerves like all those things. But it's so easy to just be in the shower, feel the water. You don't have to go to the spa, you know, just be there. You want to get some smelly little things and put them in the shower, great, do that. But be in the shower because that increases mindfulness. And when we can give ourselves a break just to just. Just to exist and give ourselves a moment, that can go a long way, surprisingly, for having a good morning or a good day, good afternoon.
- [28:27]
JoJo Simmons
Amazing. Yeah, grateful is the big word for me. Been gracious for a long time. You know, there's been moments or a moment a while back, years ago, where I was. Everything felt very overwhelming. And I. A laundry list of things that I was going through. And I started tearing up and then I started thinking about all the things I Do have that I. That are things that if I didn't have, it would be even worse. And those tears of sadness turned into tears of joy for some reason for me, because I was like, you know, yeah, I don't have everything together. I'm not perfect, but there's so many things I have to be grateful for. Even, like, what you just said, this shower. Like, today I took a shower. I'm like, this hot water feels great in this cold weather out here in New Jersey, right? Like, and I'm thankful and I'm grateful that. That I'm. I'm blessed to do that. And I'm blessed to have what I do have. And, you know, I also think we're going back to your mood. Your mood attracts what your life is, right? So when you think happy thoughts and you think and you have a happy mood, more things come to you and greater things come to you. But when you constantly soak in the sad thoughts and in the bad vibes and the things that you cannot control, it just gets worse and worse and worse. And I used to be one of those guys. I used to be like, if I couldn't control it, I felt like I could control it, and it would just put me in a worse spot. But when I realized I couldn't control a lot of things and I can only control how I react to those things, is when I was able to be more grateful for everything in this world, even when things go wrong, I'd be like, all right. But I still have that. You know what I mean? Like, ah, man, I get mad for a second be like, but I'm still good, though. Like, we're still good. We still living. We still breathing. We still have a chance. We still have opportunity, you know? So that's how I look at life. And that's why grateful and graciousness, those words have. Have been. Have been big words for me over the past few years. So I appreciate you bringing that, bringing that up, because those are super important for somebody to hear on the mental health aspect.
- [30:24]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah. Can I jump in there right quick?
- [30:26]
JoJo Simmons
Please do.
- [30:29]
Dr. Rita Walker
You know, because one of the things that. That you said in there got me to thinking about how people are apprehensive about seeing a mental health professional because they're thinking, well, that person just wants me to be positive all the time, or that person wants me to be someone who's not me and not be myself. And. And. And that's. That's not. That's not the goal, at least for professionals like me. That's not the goal, like, authenticity is absolutely the goal. And so what you were saying, like, you can experience something and see, like, yeah, that happened, but guess what else I have. And so you're able to. To pivot. And. And we need to be able to pivot. I think there are a lot of people who struggle who don't have that capacity to pivot. And so in a lot of the work that I do, it's about, you know, restructuring thoughts. Not to see the positive and, you know, and everything and have a Pollyanna like, no, that's not real. But what is real is seeing the whole picture rather than just seeing the part that's dragging us down. So I just wanted to add that.
- [31:33]
JoJo Simmons
Restructure your thoughts. That is the. That is the clip right there. Make sure. I want the. I want the world to know, whoever's listening, whoever's watching, to restructure your thoughts. What you said just now was super important. It's not about ignoring your thoughts. It's not about knowing that, you know, it's not about ignoring the negative thoughts, and it's not about only praising the positive thoughts. It's about restructuring the thoughts. It's about thinking about it in different ways. It's about being happy about the positives and figuring out the negatives. You know, it's not about just being oblivious to the negatives. Like, oh, that's. That's happening. And I know you got to address it, but you got to learn how to address it. You got to restructure your thoughts. That was huge, man. You cooking over here, Dr. Walker. You cooking? You are cooking. So what are some small, everyday practices people can start doing to care for their mental health, not just during crisis moments, but, like, just every day? How do you stay grounded, stay in tune with your best self?
- [32:31]
Dr. Rita Walker
No, I think the easiest way, and I try to give folks easy strategies, because sometimes if they're not. Sometimes if they're too complicated. Nobody's doing that. Like, no, nobody's doing that extra stuff too much. But breathing, like, literally breathing. And I have a deep breathing exercise on my YouTube, and I love to walk folks through a deep breathing exercise because you would say, like, well, you know, of course we're breathing. You know, we're here. But the kind of mindfully deep breathing that allows us time to do two things. One, when something happens, it gives us an opportunity to reset and restructure, you know, rather than going into autopilot, cussing somebody out, you know, all the things, it gives us an opportunity to do that, but also allows us to be able to get oxygen into our body because we don't breathe effectively for the most part. I mean, folks who've been trained, you know, if you do yoga, you know, you're already probably breathing more effectively. But the rest of us who aren't intentionally doing that work are breathing in a way that's really shallow and isn't good for our bodies. And so, you know, taking a moment breathing deeply, you know, for me, whenever a really stressful thing happens, I automatically, you know, I'm aware when I feel the tension in my body and I take a moment to breathe. My now 15 year old has said on occasion, like, oh, mama's breathing. Like, yeah, like we have to do that. But then some of the other things that are very simple, you know, queuing up your playlist and having different playlists for different moments. Sometimes we need jazz to kind of settle us down a little bit. Sometimes we need some gospel for some inspiration. Sometimes we need some, you know, hip hop, you know, to keep just kind of to really get us going and having that music accessible so we don't have to think about it. And that's the solution is having more built in and automated kinds of strategies for the little things that happen. You know, sometimes I have to go and sit in my car and turn the music up really loudly. I don't go in the house right away. You know, I sit and I breathe and I listen to music. And these are some of the short term kinds of things that we can do for what we call acute stress. So acute stress or more of those short term, you know, kinds of things that happen. Some of us do have longer term stressors, but we have to deal with the acute things in order to have the wherewithal to manage the more serious kinds of things. You know, the work problems, you know, that person who's getting on your last nerve, you know, being under underpaid and under promoted, those are more chronic and longer term kinds of issues that are really hard to deal with if we're not dealing with the acute kinds of stressors.
- [35:12]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah, breathing, that's a big one. You know, I'm sure I'm not breathing correctly. So I'm definitely going to tap into your YouTube tutorial on the breathing. Yeah, I appreciate that. I never really heard that answer from anybody. So that's a, that's a good one right there. Because I do think taking deep breaths and having that moment is definitely helpful because I'm not saying I use it, but I've used those methods before and they definitely Help. So, yeah, those are huge. How do we create community spaces where honesty about mental health feels safe and supported?
- [35:43]
Dr. Rita Walker
Find your people. I'm still working on that one, to be honest, Jojo, like, I know, like, who my people are, you know, around the country that I can reach out to. The challenge is that we. We have some difficulties with trust in our community. And that's one of the things that I think is sadly part of the culture, understandably so. You know, we had the people in the house and we had the folks who were out in the field, and we couldn't. We couldn't trust everybody. You know, Nat Turner was trying to free us, and it was one of us who gave him up. And so we have a lot of that mentality still now that it can be hard to know who the people are who we can trust. But I do encourage people just to start with the folks that they know. Like, start with the folks who are in your immediate environment. And if we're honest, we know, you know, like, we know who the people are who we can talk to, and the people are who we need to avoid. We know who they are. But as we begin to build, you know, we can do so with intention and say to the people who we're already close to. This is what I'm trying to do. You know, I'm trying to create something that's not going to be too stressful. You know, maybe we can just connect for, you know, right after work, if it's some work people, you know, we can connect on, you know, early Saturday morning and build this into our routine or Sunday afternoon, like, starting with those folks. And I actually trust that there are. There are enough people who want community that when we start to talk more and express enthusiasm and excitement about bringing together small groups, it builds. I'm actually a part of a hiking group, you know, black hiking group. And, you know, the more that folks talk about how much fun we have, because, yeah, I will go hiking as long as it's not five degrees outside. You know, there are other folks who are like, okay, so when do you all meet? You know, and folks are drawn. Like you were talking about positivity. People are drawn to positivity. I don't think we have to work that hard as long as we build something that at its core is strong and meaningful and Easy. Easy.
- [37:49]
JoJo Simmons
That's what we're creating here at the Forgo Podcast, you know, something that meaningful, something that's impactful, something that's positive and something that's nonjudgmental. We want to hear. We want to talk to everybody here, man. And that was the reason behind this podcast. Like, I know they say everybody has a podcast, and I said, but not everybody has this podcast. This is the podcast that we really, really care about. Everybody, all walks of life, every culture, every race, every person, because we believe that people all have a story. And everybody's story is important, whether you're an A list celebrity or the everyday worker that's making sure that the stadiums are clean or whatever. Right. We believe that people. People have great stories and people are amazing. The human race is an amazing race, in my opinion. So after years of teaching, researching, and helping others, how has this work shaped how you personally take care of your own Mental Health? Dr. Walker? We haven't spoken about that. We spoke about that a little bit, but we talk about how you've helped everybody. Really? So how does it help you with your own mental health doing all this work?
- [38:50]
Dr. Rita Walker
You know, it's funny because I've had folks send quotes to me from my own book, and I look at it like, did I say that? Yeah. I mean, because I get caught up, too, in the overwork and trying to do too much. To whom much is given, much is expected. Right? And so I do a lot at the same time, I am incredibly mindful of, especially if I start to feel a little snappy, you know, like, if one more person asks me for one more thing, if I have that thought, it's time for me to take a backseat. It's just time. And I don't even overthink it. It's like, okay, I'm saying no to everything else the rest of the week, if not another two weeks. And that's one thing that I just do. The other thing is that I make sure that I am intentional about adding the good stuff. I try not to add too much good stuff because I love sweets. I love. I love them so much.
- [39:50]
JoJo Simmons
We all. We're trying to cut back as well.
- [39:56]
Dr. Rita Walker
But they're so good, right? And so I find ways to treat myself. And so sometimes a treat might have to be a smoothie, you know, rather than that chocolate dessert that I want. And so it's about balance. I think that's. That is the key word is. Is balance. Recognizing that there's a lot on us, and some of it is not some of it. A lot of it is coming from the outside right now. And so we have to recognize that we can't avoid all of the extra stuff. And so we have to do to be more intentional about Adding the good stuff and maybe even removing some of the stuff that weighs us down. But we have to be aware of what the things are that weigh us down. You know, I would love to travel, you know, and see family, you know, every other month or maybe even monthly. I know they'd appreciate that, but it's not feasible. And I will tell you, one of the things that I sometimes drive my students about, drive my students crazy about. My husband's not a fan either. The word should. The word should is not in my vocabulary. I. I don't use it. And when people use it around me like, it makes my skin crawl. Because should, while we use it oftentimes to motivate ourselves, like, I should work out. I shouldn't eat so many sweets. I should, you know, fill in the blank. You'll start to notice, hopefully after this conversation how many times you use should, maybe, or at least you and the crew like, notice it. The thing about should is that it takes us away from what we're doing and in a judgmental way. So as an example, if I'm not working out, it's because I don't have the energy or I don't have the time. There's a reason for me to just say I should work out. That's not helpful. What I replace should with is it would be helpful if I worked out more. One, and then the follow up question is, but what's keeping me from working out more? If it would be helpful, what is the deterrent? And then I can tackle what the issue is without beating up on myself and saying, well, I should do this and I should do that, which doesn't feel good. Instead, I can try and problem solve, you know, saying, my son should practice more. My son plays basketball, he should practice more. Well, that's not helping him or me because now I'm shouldn't on him. And so I need to be able to figure out what are the things that are keeping him from wanting to practice more. How do I incentivize him? And so we have to find ways to help ourselves and to motivate ourselves without being judgmental. And I picked up on that because you said judgmental earlier. And I usually talk about judgment and avoiding it because it's important.
- [42:42]
JoJo Simmons
Right. That's good. So safe to say for you, it's about balanced boundaries and adding the good stuff for your mental health. I love that. So as we wrap it up, when people, when people finish this episode, what do you want them to walk away with or feel more empowered to do for their mental health moving forward.
- [43:01]
Dr. Rita Walker
You know, it's funny you said feel more empowered because my mind had already gone to I hope folks feel more empowered. I hope people feel like life isn't just something that happens to them. You know, I hope they feel like that there are small things that they can do. Like you don't have to go and get a seventy hundred, two hundred dollars subscription somewhere. You don't have to go to the spa. You know, there are small things that each and every one of us can do each day. And even if we decide or don't feel up for it today, then okay, make an adjustment by the weekend or maybe say I'm going to start on my birthday. Like we are empowered to make small changes. And I guarantee you that small changes with any amount of routine makes a huge difference. You know, if I say should one day, but I don't say it the rest of the year, then I'm doing great. But if I say it 50% of the time, when I used to say it 100% of the time, I'm still giving myself more grace, non judgmental attitude or disposition towards myself. So yeah, I do hope people will feel empowered and feel empowered to do the small things, feel empowered to reach out to someone who may be struggling and it doesn't have to be advanced or sophisticated. Just say, hey, I just wanted you to know I was thinking about you. We don't have to talk about what's going on. Just want you to know I care about you and I'm here.
- [44:23]
JoJo Simmons
Yeah. And stop using the word should people. Stop shooting on yourself. Stop shoulding on yourself. Right. So Dr. Walker, before we get out of here, can you let the people know where they can find you, what you got coming up and anything else you want the people to know before we sign on out?
- [44:39]
Dr. Rita Walker
Yeah, I'm@drretawalker.com and I'll spell Rita because, you know, my family's from the south and so we spelled Rita R H E E D as in diamond A. I'm most active on Instagram, so please follow me on Instagram for when I share, you know, my thoughts about psychological fortitude and how we can increase our health and well being in ways that are small and adaptable. But I'm also just trying to get the word out more about the idea of not just mental health, but psychological fortitude and our capacity to be able to take care of ourselves and our families and do so in a way that's balanced to and responsible.
- [45:16]
JoJo Simmons
Thank you so much, Dr. Walker. Thank you so much. Dr. Walker, we appreciate all that you're doing and everything you've done in the mental health space, in the suicide prevention space is very important. These conversations are super important, especially in our communities and in the world as a whole. So you are a shining hero in this world. Trust me, anybody that's doing the work, putting in the work, caring about others, not just themselves, are heroes to me. So I want to give you your four good flowers like I give to everybody at the end of the end of the podcast. Thank you so much for being a four good person and everybody, we will see you next time. It is your guy, Jojo Simmons with my homegirl, Dr. Rita Walker, where we're on the For Good podcast where we focus on the good, never the bad and we're measured by what we do, not what we have for next time, guys. Your guy JoJo. Dr. Rita Walker. Peace.
- [46:13]
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