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- [00:00]
Daniel Hartman
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You are listening to an art media podcast.
- [00:10]
Daniel Hartman
Hi, friends. This is Daniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake. Israel at war. And as the time passes, we have different clocks. It's day 625 of the war in Gaza. It's the 10th day of the war with Iran. And as we all woke up in Israel last night, we're wondering whether this is day one of a new era. Yossi, not just you. All of us since the war in Gaza have been waiting for this moment. Secretly, I preferred to wake up to discover that Israel had a plan and we did it. That we did it. Because I had never felt good that our plan was for America to come in, even though, you know, it's okay. But we've been waiting. We've been waiting to see whether this operation would finally remove a nuclear threat sitting on our neck. And our first moments were exhilarating. In the middle of the night. I know there must be some prophetic something. I think people all over Israel woke up in the middle of the night. Within 10, 15 minutes, it was in the airwaves. We woke up. I woke up, Adina. We were all excited. And then the question is, is this really a new era? That's what we want to talk about together. How do we understand this? How do we understand how we Israelis are feeling? What are some of the differences between the way we look at this and maybe other people are looking at this? What are some of the consequences of this? This is something sometimes, you know, beware what you wish for. Is this a case where we got what we wished for? Is it going to lead to a transformation and a new era? Or is it something very, very different? That's what we have to talk about. I. I don't want to be ungrateful. Today, I feel a deep sense of gratitude to President Trump and to the United States government, to the United States military. I don't believe that this was something that was done just for the sake of Israel. And it aggravates me to no end when I see discourse around this I do not understand. And we'll talk about this more why this became an Israeli issue and not a world issue. But I have great gratitude for the courage and for the decisiveness. So on the one hand, I'm relieved, I'm excited, but I feel we have to talk about this. Yossi, so maybe start with you. Where are you? Here.
- [02:55]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You know, Daniil, as we said in our last podcast, I've been waiting for this moment for the better part of 30 years. And now that it's happened, I don't feel excitement. I certainly don't feel euphoria. I do feel tremendous gratitude to the people who made this possible. And I need to say it that I feel gratitude to Netanyahu. It doesn't cancel the historic damage he's done to the Israeli political system, to Israeli society. And I think that history may well record him as both savior and destroyer. But at this moment, it really does need to be said that Netanyahu led the international campaign for the last 20 years to keep the relentless focus on the danger of a nuclear Iran. And he's brought this campaign to its culminating moment. I feel tremendous gratitude to President Trump, and I say that unequivocally. And I appreciate that Americans, many of our listeners in America, feel about Trump the way I feel about Netanyahu. Still, there are moments where one needs to express gratitude. I feel tremendous gratitude to the people I've worked with in America for the last 20 years. AIPAC, the foundation for the Defense of Democracies, AJC, ADL, other organizations. My heart is full for the years of effort that these people put in. My partner in this work, Michael Oren, we've been riding together for years trying to sound the alarm. So it's not excitement. And maybe there's a certain exhaustion that's also set in. Why did it take so long? Why did it happen at the last possible minute? But there is at the same time a sort of existential relief that I feel and, of course, sharing the same uncertainty. I won't call it anxiety. I don't feel ecstasy and I don't feel anxiety. What I feel most of all is that this is the moment where I need to own everything that I've put into this all these years. And so I feel steady. And I think being exhausted and sleepless helps kind of moderate the extremes of emotion, and it contributes to a certain steadiness. Now, how about you, Daniil? You know, and when you were saying earlier that you wish there was a plan, I remember a conversation we had immediately after October 7, and I said, what I feel Israel needs to do right now is leave Gaza alone and go right to the head of the snake, go right to Iran. And I remember your. Let's call it incredulity, really, a sense of, this time I'm going too far. And I appreciated that response, and I understood it. But I'm wondering now, really, where are you at? You also have an Iranian history. Where does that bring you in this.
- [06:19]
Daniel Hartman
Moment, as I said last week, and I don't want to repeat it, I do feel circumstances have changed, which made my whole attitude towards this change. But again, I think every Israeli was dreaming of a day when Iran would no longer threaten us. And that brings me to where I. What like what I feel as I walked in the streets today, you know, they were empty. But as I spoke to people. You didn't see celebrations in the street. Well, first of all, we weren't allowed to. You're not allowed to go out of your house. We wake up in the morning and there's another 30 missiles coming and a huge destruction in different sites of Israel. But thank God the casualty numbers today were a little lower. But there is a messianic impulse that there will be a moment when everything will change. And I think focusing on Isfahan, Fardo Natanz gave us this messianic impulse. Like here it was, there's the three reactors. Like this is it. If we could just change the three reactors, if we could just destroy them, then everything will be different. And I think part of what I'm feeling as the hours pass since the attack is that Iran, the regime is still there and they're still threatening and they're still lying and they're still, you know, that now there's a fourth reactor that we didn't know about. And now the 450 kilo of enriched uranium were not in Isfahan. There's somewhere else. The enemy is still there.
- [07:56]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yeah.
- [07:56]
Daniel Hartman
And so I. There's this. I don't know what to feel, Yossi. On the one hand, I support completely my reservations about a military operation and my reservations about attacking Iran are completely removed. I support this unequivocally. I feel it was simply necessary. Those who believe that just through negotiations you could have achieved this. I don't, frankly. I've reached a point where I don't even understand them. It's not a point of disagreement. I don't understand them. Those who claim or the report that Iran had not decided yet to put together a nuclear weapon. So why do you have 450 kilogram of 60% enriched uranium? What would be your reason? I don't even understand the factual debate. I don't believe.
- [08:47]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Danielle, some of the premises of this debate are so embarrassing that intellectually I felt sullied over these years having to make those cases, you see, but I.
- [09:00]
Daniel Hartman
Never felt sullied because I made those cases. I made those cases myself. And I do feel that some of those realities have changed. And they were getting closer. Whether it was two weeks or whether it was a year or two, there was a unique moment where I do believe we had to attack. But at the same time, I'm wondering what I really wanted. Do you really want the removal of the three reactors, or do you really want something that you can't achieve, but it doesn't mean you can't want it? And deep down, I really want regime change in Iran. I don't want us to engage in it. I don't want the United States to engage in it. I know that regime change is a mess beyond comprehension. But if I talk about what I, as an Israeli deserve, I deserve to not have somebody wanting to destroy me. Like, is that. Like, isn't that fair for me to wake up in the morning, okay, there's enemies that I've created, you know, the Palestinians. I believe we have not pursued peace sufficiently, and there's more that we need to do, and it's a complicated story, and blah, blah, blah, Iran, like, what do you want from me? Like, you're now I know the exact distance. You know, you're 1500-20, 100 kilometers away, because we know each sortie, how far they go. Like, what do you want from my life? And to have somebody so powerful, so large wake up every morning wanting to kill me? So part of what I feel today, you'll see as we were sitting in the shelters again this morning and waiting and going, and we can't go to work, and they still want to kill me, and they're still there. I thought that the minute that Trump threatened them, they'd capitulate. I thought that after Israel did what they did, they'd go to the negotiating table. But again, they heed and hawed with the Europeans and said, under no conditions are we going to give up our right to enrich uranium, even though they don't need to in order to have nuclear reactors. And they're going and going, and they wake up this morning and they're still there. Yossi. I don't know. It's like, I don't. It's like. It's like. It's tiring. They're still there, and I don't want them there.
- [11:15]
Yossi Klein Halevi
You know, one of the themes that you've repeatedly brought up in our conversations is your fear of the Israeli concept that we call, in Hebrew, zbeng vigamarnu.
- [11:30]
Daniel Hartman
Right?
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Yossi Klein Halevi
One blow and we're done with it. And the temptation of zbeng vagamanu is so deep in the Israeli psyche, when you're under assault from day one of the birth of your country. And the siege never stops and you go from terrorism to war, back to terrorism and then war again. The longing for a definitive end to existential threat is it really in some ways defines the Israeli psyche. And however understandable, that's a very dangerous idea. And it has repeatedly led us into complications from which in some ways we're still trying to extract ourselves at the same time. So yes, so there is no spaying Vegemodno with Iran. I think that's very clear. But the longing for regime change is not a sbayn for Gamanu, provided that we don't expect any one event to trigger regime change. My expectation is that in the short term the war in Iran is going to rally much of the Iranian public around the regime. But that's going to be an emotional, immediate reaction when things start to calm down. And Iranians look at where this regime has led it. Many billions of dollars that this regime has invested in a failed nuclear program, the extraordinary resources this regime has invested in terror proxies around the world, all of it leading to isolation, economic collapse, war. My sense is that the conditions are being laid now for regime change, which of course can only be initiated by the Iranian people.
- [13:31]
Daniel Hartman
You know, it's very interesting, you actually have a theory about this. I was just saying, you're saying this is going to happen, like I'm listening to it. I'm saying really I don't want anybody to do anything. But I'm just being honest. I wake up this morning, the three nuclear reactors were destroyed and our enemy is still there. And they're still there now. It'll take us some time. It's true. Maybe we'll know in another week exactly how much was destroyed. What was not destroyed? Did we get this many? Maybe some of the angst will, will dissipate. But deep down I know there was something else that I wanted. I don't have a theory about regime change. I don't want anybody to deal with regime change. I'm not calling for regime change. I'm fantasizing because I, you know, it's. When I look at, you know, today is what, the 22nd of of June, my family and I, we came back. I made aliyah in 1971. I moved to Israel as a child, as a 13 year old in 1984, I left Israel for 11 years and came back on July 4th of 1995. And I look at these last 30 years. There's 30 years since I came back there was Oslo is where it started. And it was like glorious. It was sort of the context with which we were coming back. And within a few months of us coming back, Yitzhak Rabin is killed. Terrorist attacks, a second intifada, Profound inner strife around the withdrawal from Gaza. Four ongoing attacks every few years. Wars with Hamas. Leave Corona aside because that all of us had the war. Terrorism throughout October 7, 600 days of war, battles against, against Hezbollah. Discovering that there's even somebody called the Houthis who want to kill me too. Adding on not one front, not two fronts, three fronts. I don't even know what seven fronts are. The war. It's just, you look at these last 30 years, it's been, it's, there's a weight. And part of the question is whether this will be a new era to change that story. Because also in the midst of this story, we had remarkable growth in Israel and spiritual growth, economic growth, intellectual prosperity, so many beautiful things. But it's just like as we're sitting, going back over and again, like, when is it going to come to an end?
- [16:04]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Is it this is it.
- [16:06]
Daniel Hartman
It's like, so that's why I want this bang. I want the bang and it's finished. But, and I don't want to be ungrateful, but I'm feeling as I'm walking, I looked at my daughter and son in law and my grandchildren and the people in the streets and you know, they'd think there would be cheers, that there would be cars running up and down the street, honking their horns. It isn't.
- [16:27]
Yossi Klein Halevi
And it's, we're too tired, we're too tired.
- [16:31]
Daniel Hartman
But, you know, I'm sorry. Yes, yes.
- [16:33]
Yossi Klein Halevi
No, just listen. And listening to that long litany of traumas, we go from one trauma to the other and at the same time, the extraordinary development of the country. And there really are two timelines running through the history of Israel. There's the traumatic and there's the triumph and they always seem to be in competition. And what's the emotional toll? What's the psychological toll on this country? And we experience here an excess of history. I don't know.
- [17:10]
Daniel Hartman
It's too much.
- [17:12]
Yossi Klein Halevi
It's too much. It's just too much. And so you began our conversation by talking about, is this a new era? How many times have we asked that question? And the answer usually is yes, it is a new era. And we go from one shattering event to the next. And what is the toll? What is the toll on Israeli society? What do you think, Daniil? How do you see how. Well, what is the toll on you? How do you feel?
- [17:46]
Daniel Hartman
I want to deal with the toll to Israeli society. And this is the question, because I believe this is going to be a central question that Israel's going to face now. It's going to face it not just internally, but it's going to face it externally. Precisely. If this moment is the great moment that we waited for, it's not the end of all hatred against Israel or against Jews, but there is a certain existential danger that might be removed from the table. We'll see.
- [18:15]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yeah, but, you know, the way things work in the Israeli story is one existential threat is removed and the removal creates a new existential threat. I'm thinking especially here of the vulnerability of Diaspora Jews at this moment. And it is. This is the first time, Daniil, And I mean, October 7th and the aftermath, the first time that Israel has been at war. And Israelis have felt acutely vulnerable. And Diaspora Jews, especially American Jews, have shared to some extent in that vulnerability.
- [18:52]
Daniel Hartman
Right. So now the question that I believe is going to be central to us is how do we shift our psyche? And a shifting of a psyche is one of the hardest things. Shifting of ideology, you'll see is easy in relative to a shifting of a psyche. When you've been through this litany of existential or traumatic experiences, I think we've gotten very hardened. We've gotten fatigued, and we've gotten hardened. We're used to war. We're used to danger. I think the question of whether this is a new era or not is not going to hinge on whether this one bombing is going to bring about the transformation and the redemption. But how do we shift from military to political? President Trump said very clearly, let's go to the negotiating table now. I doubt that Iran could do so, but I think those same questions are going to be posed on us. And I look at Israeli society with great concern as I sit down again, you have a lot of time as you're sitting on your chair and you're in your shelters. You know, it's like it's. There's. And a lot of time. These last 10 days have felt like two years. It's just everything has slowed down. Nothing is happening, and you're just sitting and thinking. And it gives me time to reflect. And part of what I wonder is how do we shift from this? Because, you know, I'm to be an Israeli is to, as you wrote in your beautiful piece in the Times of Israel, and I appreciate it very much, it just came out today about you have power, you have to use it. You know, we Israelis understand that you have to use it. But as I've been saying all along, what else do we have? And psychologically I understand that Israelis have sort of we've become more accustomed than anybody else in the world to using power and becoming so comfortable with it. But now to achieve the full victory that we want to remove the 450 kilogram of 60% enriched uranium which I now discovered from a former head of the Mossad, they could turn to 90% enrichment in a room the size of a kitchen. So it's still there somewhere along the line.
- [21:08]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yeah. To go from 60 to 90% enrichment can happen in a matter of weeks or even days.
- [21:15]
Daniel Hartman
And then we all know there's other things you have to do. Now we're such experts in nuclear weapons. Whoever thought that I would understand that they have to do precision. This is and that's and shrinkings and going and find whatever it might be, but it's still there. But somewhere along the line, Iran is going to have to move to becoming a country that says I want nuclear energy without enrichment. That's not going to happen with another bombing campaign or another one. And we Israelis, we're now, you know, we're flying over Iran. We're also going to have to stop at some point before short of the complete victory and move to this other stage. So some of me thinks about that. But you know, as I look I wanted to share ask you a question. You know, as we look at Israeli psyche at this moment, there is a fascinating debate going on in America both on the right and on the left. There's this CNN poll which says that 79% of Americans are against Iran becoming a nuclear power.
- [22:17]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Who are the 21%? That's what I want to know.
- [22:20]
Daniel Hartman
79%. Fair enough. Listen, there's a certain percentage of people in every country that just don't follow the news and. Fair enough. And in America, like I read it's like in another galaxy. But only 48% are for America using power. 48 to 47% are for using power to solve the problem. And in light of everything that's happening, what else did people think we should be doing? The gap between this Israeli psyche and I'm worried about it because we're too comfortable with it. We're going to have to shift. But I look at the world really, 79% are against it, but only 48% are willing to use military force to solve the problem. Are we becoming an Anomaly in the world, Yossi. And is that even a profound danger for us when we talk about our great allies in America?
- [23:15]
Yossi Klein Halevi
We may well be becoming an anomaly, certainly in the west, not in the world. But the fear of using force has become so endemic to the Western psyche, the liberal Western psyche in particular, although now it's spreading to the MAGA camp. And one of the poisonous turns in the American debate over Iran is the framing, and you see it on the right as well as the left, of stopping a nuclear Iran as a favor America would be doing to Israel. And we're not going to die in your wars. And it's actually the opposite because Israel is actually fighting the West's war here. Now, we're obviously, that's not our motive for attacking Iran. We attacked Iran to protect ourselves. But one consequence of that is that we are trying to remove a threat to the Arab world and to the world generally, whether or not many people around the world acknowledge that. So, you know, frankly, Daniil, 48% of Americans supporting the use of force. That's a very surprising statistic. I was sure that after the last months of whittling away at American determination to stop Iran, especially coming from the MAGA camp, would have resulted in much smaller numbers. And so there still is, especially in America, much less so in Europe, a determination, a willingness to own force as a last resort. And, you know, even in Europe, though I speak disparagingly about Europe and Israelis routinely do. But the. The German Chancellor Mertz the other day made an extraordinary statement that really should be amplified. He said that Israel is doing the dirty work for us. And I found that statement deeply moving because there was also in that statement an admission of failure. There was a humility in that statement which is so rare in international discourse. And yes, we are certainly at variance with much of the west, but attitudes change, and it depends what the consequences, of course, will be. Now one can expect a resurgence in Iranian terror around the world, especially, God forbid, directed against Jewish diaspora targets. And that, I think, is also going to impact on world opinion. And it could play out in different ways. Either blame Israel for the upsurge in terrorism or put the blame where it actually belongs, which is Iran. So that's also an interesting development to see how it unfolds.
- [26:09]
Daniel Hartman
I'm used to. You were mentioning the MAGA camp and I've been following. Again, I apologize, I'm getting it wrong. Tucker Carlson, Did I get it right? You did okay. I got it right this time. I've been following him and trying to understand an argument that's clearly resonating. And Bannon, Steve Bannon, is the same thing where in a conversation that he had with Ted Cruz, he said, could you explain to me how it is in America's interest, why is it making America great again to go fight Israel's wars? And he put it out there. And Cruz really couldn't respond in an effective way. And he said, why is that my interest? To support, to fight an ally? And you wonder, what if this argument really progresses, what does it mean? First of all, presenting this as Israel's war, two, NATO, the whole place of America in our world is to be a force which creates or which stands on the side of the good of the right, destroys the evil, creates stability, what will happen to our world? And so I have a lot of concern about that. I don't mean to. When we were thinking about doing a podcast post the bombing, if it would ever come, I imagined it was going to be a celebratory podcast. And this doesn't feel that celebratory because we're aware of all these other forces and conversations that are taking place. Even in the press conference with the Secretary of Defense, someone raised the question, you know, but the American intelligence has said that Iran was not for the war, was still not trying to develop a bomb. And the Secretary of Defense said, yes, the President considered all the information and reached the conclusion that they were. And like, okay, so that's like, fact. We're now creating a fact. But all these, there's, there's all these conversations. It's almost, I would put it this way, there is this bombing that took place. We hope it will transform the reality within which we live, but we don't yet know. But the day after, the day before, the conversation all around has created a tremendous amount of concern of instability. Listen, I wish we were living in a more stable world. Maybe we don't get to have that, especially in our side of the world. And so is this a new era? I don't know. Maybe we have to just give up that language. Maybe it's enough for it to be a good day. It's a good day. It's a positive day. Maybe it'll even be a great day. If because of Today, Iran is 10 years away from having a nuclear weapon, and then we now have 10 years for hopefully something else to happen. But it's still there. You wonder whether another hour clock has been turned over and how we're going to respond. Do you have anything else you want to share with our audience today?
- [29:29]
Yossi Klein Halevi
Yossi, I think it is a great day. Daniil. Unequivocally, Israel and now the United States have stood up to one of the great evils of our time. And something that you and I have discussed over the years is an extra dimension to understanding tikkun olam. Tikkun olam is not only. It's not only the enhancement of the good, but it's also the prevention of evil, the denial of power to evil. And from that perspective, I think what we've just seen is an extraordinary act of tikkun olam.
- [30:09]
Daniel Hartman
You know, we've decided a long time ago that the nature of our podcast is just to share what we're feeling. And I wish I had more joyful exhilaration at this time. Maybe I should. Maybe it's also because of those same 30 years. We're wondering, we're more cautious, but maybe we should have done this podcast in the reverse. But it's good that we're ending with your words. I do feel this is a potential for tikkun olam. This was a tikkun olam act. This was an act of greatness, an act of courage. And I hope with your prayers and all of our prayers that we will discover that the bombings were very successful. We will discover that the 450 kg were destroyed. We'll discover that if not everything was needed, there are some short term solutions for them. And that inside our world and in our crazy neighborhood will turn from having to use power over and over again as a vehicle for tikkun olam to begin to use politics and negotiations also as a vehicle for tikkun olam. And maybe that'll bring the new era that we're. That we really. It's not just what we're searching for, Yossi. I think we deserve it. It's time. It's time. Thank you for being with me, Yossi. It's good being with you. And to our audience, this is for heaven's sake. Israel at war. 625, 10 and 1. I wonder what new number is going to be by the next podcast as events progress. We'll probably tape another podcast in the middle of the week. Look forward to being with all of you then. Shalom from Jerusalem.