B (4:16)

The first prominent Arab Israeli politician to do so.

C (4:19)

To do so. That's very important. He made that major step. He says the fact that he even wants to join the coalition was the first major Arab party who was willing to say, I want to sit in a coalition. What?

B (4:33)

Because the boycott in the past has.

C (4:35)

Been mutual, has been mutual, very much mutual. And it's still on some of the parties. We'll talk about it as Mutual. On October 8, he came out with one of the most moving condemnations of October 7, total, complete even in May of 2021, when a synagogue was burnt down. He shows up there and he says, I want to help rebuild. This is a man who stands very clearly and says, I want to be part of a Jewish Israeli society. You recognize that. He says, I want to remove Hamas from a position of political power in Gaza and replace them with an international force, which is basically the position of the right. Full, full. Right, right, right, right. Right wing, just Netanyahu government. So here we have this man who at least on the surface is saying, everything you could possibly want, is doing everything he could possibly want. And he's sitting on five solid seats. And he's saying, I want to join. Yet there is now formed a clear consensus in Israeli society, with the exception of the Democratic Party, to say, we're not going to sit with them, even before the war. But it was exacerbated by the war Lieberman started it and Bennett joined in. We want to have a coalition built on Zionists, which means no Israeli Arab Palestinians after the war and the recognition that we need a bigger army. The new languages. We want a coalition in Hebrew, of Mishartim, the coalition of those who serve, which means no Haridim and also no Arabs. So this language I can understand. No Haredim. I can understand this. We need 10,000 more soldiers and we need to change the whole equation in Israeli society and the relationship. We need a new covenant with ultra Orthodox community. But here you have a man who at least and a party which seems to express the values that you care for. Why is there this boycott? Why is he just unacceptable? Yossi, how do you understand this?

B (6:46)

So first of all, before we get to that, Daniil, just to emphasize what an extraordinary phenomenon Mansoor Abbas has been in Israeli politics. He's not just the head of an Arab party, he's the head of Israel's homegrown Islamist party. And you'll remember, Daniil, we had him here at the institute. You interviewed him and, and it was a terrific morning with him. And someone asked him, might have been me actually, of what is your. Between us, between us.

C (7:24)

Off the record. This is your version of off the record.

B (7:26)

Off the record, in front of 400 people, what's your long term vision for this land? Do you want to see a caliphate replace all of the secular states? And he laughed and he said, don't get me into trouble. Which of course was an answer. And if you think about what he's really saying is, of course this is my messianic vision. But I live in the real world. I have to deal with a Jewish state in which I'm a minority. I need to do the best for my community. So it doesn't matter what my long term vision is. Let's all deal with reality. And that's really what he was saying. So what an extraordinary thing, Daniil, that the first Arab party to join a Zionist coalition would be Islamist. It's so counterintuitive that it could only happen in Israel. And you know, there's this sense of being so deeply underappreciated. I saw him interviewed, he was interviewed last night on Israeli tv. And they're pushing him and they're saying, well, do you want to destroy Hamas? And he's trying to say, listen, I want to replace Hamas. I've said it over and over again, why don't you listen to me? And then he explodes. And he said, you want to get me killed? And then he said, Something that was extraordinary, something I've never heard from any politician anywhere. Say, he said, you've never related to me with love. Wow. Now think about what that means. He's a guy who. And I remember him saying this to you in the interview. You asked him about his process and he spoke about befriending an Israeli rabbi, the late Menachem Froman. And he said, I came to love him. And I learned from him what Judaism is and how I hadn't understood it and I didn't understand the Jewish people. His whole politics was something we've never experienced in this country before. It was the politics of interfaith. It was a religious politics of, I'm going to engage you precisely because I'm a religious Muslim. We're not going to put religion aside. I mean, you know, you couldn't ask for more at a Hartman Institute gathering. That blew me away. And the Israeli Jewish public didn't know what to do with this. We didn't hear it. Just as we didn't hear him say that I accept Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people. He says, azu Omer. He says it, then he repeats it in Arabic for the Arabic speaking world. This wasn't Yasser Arafat speaking about peace in English on CNN and jihad in Arabic. He made a point of repeating I accept the Jewish state in Arabic. And so what you saw in that interview was, I just can't take this anymore. Why don't I have any partners on your side? And it was such a role reversal. We're always saying we have no partners on their side. Well, here we have a partner.

C (10:37)

Citizen of Israel, you know, your insight that this is interfaith, I think is absolutely brilliant. Never thought of it because I'm trying to understand, like why this blindness on the part of Israeli Jews.

B (10:50)

We don't have that line.

C (10:51)

We don't know it, we don't trust it. And like even the term as you described it, by the way, not only did he say that, when I watched the interview, he was almost crying.

B (10:59)

Yes, yes.

C (11:00)

He was like so frustrated. He had come to be interviewed on one thing, on the coalition and joining the coalition. And then they created a litmus test. Are you willing to declare that you want to destroy Hamas? And this, by the way, is by a left wing journalist.

B (11:19)

Really?

C (11:19)

Is this now the litmus test? The Israeli government said our goal is no longer. We shifted. It's not about destroying Hamas, it's about making sure that Hamas doesn't have political or military power.

B (11:31)

Well, it shifted twice because the Original Netanyahu goal was to save, preserve Hamas.

C (11:36)

Okay, you got that in Yossi?

B (11:38)

I did.

C (11:39)

I was waiting for the opportunity.

B (11:42)

I love you, Yossi.

C (11:43)

Got to tell you, is it politically correct for me to say you're cute?

B (11:48)

Because you know you are. My kids will get a kick out of us.

C (11:51)

It's like, you're cute. It's like you were waiting.

B (11:53)

You got.

C (11:53)

Okay, so we twisted twice, three times, whatever it is. But we changed. We're not looking to kill every last Hamasnik. So if we capture them in some tunnel in our area, there's they also. They could surrender. So we're not out to destroy. Now, what do you want from a Palestinian to say? That I want you to kill Palestinians, or do you want it to say, I want to make sure that my people, Palestinians aren't in a position to kill my people, Israelis. That's what you want. And he says it. But we. What are we saying? We're saying, I need you to say it. And she's pushing. You can't say it. You can't say it.

B (12:31)

Okay, so what do you think is going on here? What is happening in the Israeli psyche?

C (12:36)

I'm thinking about it a lot. I think the pitfall.

B (12:41)

The Israeli Jewish psyche.

C (12:42)

Yes.

B (12:43)

Thank you.

C (12:44)

Some of the Israeli Jewish psyche. Because I'm part of the Israeli Jewish psyche too. I have my own mass majority, silent majority out there. So we'll. We'll leave them aside.

B (12:54)

All the polls bear that out.

C (12:56)

All the polls bear that out. That Israeli society does not know what to do with the dual loyalty of Israeli Arab Palestinians. They just don't know what to do with it. In Israel, it's all about, are you in? Are you under the stretcher, Are you serving? That's also our ambivalence with the ultra orthodox. But there it's not a dual loyalty. It's just a lack of care and compassion. It's a sense that you're taking and not giving. Here in this country, we emerged from a world in which we were always the outsider and we came home. But when we came home, there was a group of people here who, whether originally, over time, because of us, began to feel a stronger national identity. And now they have a strong vociferous identity as Palestinians. But they're also Israelis. But they're not Israelis like us in that sense. And just like you've said beforehand, very often, Israeli and Jewish are synonymous. We could say the Israelis and we mean the Jews. But forgetting 20% of Israeli society are Israeli Arab Palestinians, and they have multiple names. Sometimes it's Palestinian citizens of Israel, sometimes it's Israeli Arabs, sometimes it's Palestinians, Arab, Palestinians. It's all of the above. As an expression of this complexity, it's a complex story. Now, we, throughout our history, we were the ones who were accused of having dual loyalty. The Jew was the one who had dual loyalty. And we kept on saying, don't worry about my dual loyalty. Of course I'm loyal. And of course, by the way, I have messianic dreams about the redemption of King David returning. But Napoleon, don't be worried about it. So. But you know what? If you're really worried, I'll take it out of my prayer. So the Reform movement takes out the prayer. So you shouldn't feel literally confronted by our messianic dreams. Because in the Jewish tradition, as in most mature religious traditions, we all believe in messiahs who tarry. There's very rarely a Messiah Messiah who's coming tomorrow. That's messianism you have to worry about. It's the messiahs who tarry. Okay? So one day, same thing we have with Christians. If Jesus comes back and is the Messiah, I'll accept him. Like I always say, like, let's wait. You know, whoever happens to be the Messiah in the meantime, we have plenty of time and things that we need to do. But the Jewish community said, don't worry about my prayers. Don't even worry about my loyalty. There isn't a Jewish cabal that's trying to take over. We serve you. We serve the country. We yearn for your aspirations. We want to be here. We want to be Frenchmen, we want to be German, we want to be American. We're here. We're loyal citizens. You know, what did Brandeis famously say when he said that there is no conflict between being a Zionist and being an American? Do you remember when he said that the Zionist is the best? It's not like we can be. We're the best American. So the point here with Israelis is, like he says, why can't you love me? We don't want love. We want a level of devotion that doesn't allow for the complexity of an Israeli, Arab, Palestinian identity. And what's so troubling to me is we're basically attacking them in a way that we were attacked for most of our history.

B (16:19)

The problem that I have with your analogy is that you called this a complicated at the Arab, Israeli identity, Palestinian, Israeli, even more complicated. You called it complicated. I actually think that there is no more complicated identity on planet Earth than to be a Palestinian Israeli on both sides, for them and for us. You can't compare the identity predicament of a Palestinian Israeli, Arab, Israeli, really. Even the fact that we don't even know what to call them. Many of them don't quite know what to call themselves. You look at the polls and 30% say we're Arab Israeli, 30% say we're Palestinian Israeli. Anyway. So with Jews in the Diaspora, there was no danger from their Jewish identity to their national identity. There was in the minds of anti Semites. That's correct. Contrived. It was completely invented. Here we're at war with the Palestinian national movement. And there's also the fact, and we've spoken about this in the past, Anil, about how each side in this relationship, the Jewish, Israeli, Arab, Israeli, each sees itself simultaneously as a majority and a minority. We are the majority in our own sovereign state. We are acutely aware, especially since October 7, being the regional minority. And Arab Israelis are acutely aware of being an uneasy minority in a Jewish state and at the same time, culturally, religiously, maybe to some extent politically part of the regional majority. And so the test that we have, and I think this is the most important moral test that the state of Israel faces, much more so than our relationship with Gaza or the West Bank. That's a national conflict. Here we have fellow citizens who are part of the national conflict, but our primary responsibility is to treat them as citizens. And we've done so very grudgingly. But I do insist on the context. And it's not an excuse and it's not a justification, it's an explanation.

C (18:50)

Fair enough. And I accept that correction. It's not the same. It's not exactly that the Jews were threatening Napoleon, that our Jewish identity, that Jews around the world were somehow going to take over, you know, the Napoleon empire. It's true. And there is a reality of a conflict, that their dual loyalty, their people are at war with their people.

B (19:11)

One people, their people is at war with theirs country.

C (19:13)

And in many ways, even I think they become Israeli because actually they call themselves that. 85% of them want to stay in Israel, would never want to leave Israel wouldn't join a Palestinian state. So they want to embrace this complexity. So I accept the correction. I think you're right. And I think it's important. It's. Let's admit that it is more complicated for Israelis, Jews. But here you have a person who passes your test.

B (19:38)

Sure, Absolutely.

C (19:40)

So it's one thing if you want to talk about the Hadash, the four, I don't know, are they still a Communist party?

B (19:45)

I think they're former.

C (19:46)

Former.

B (19:47)

I don't know. They may be sentimental communists.

C (19:49)

Sentimental communist. You know, you like we're, we're checking. We're checking all the time. Like we're sitting there checking. What did you just say? Now we know that when you check, you're always going to find. But there's realities. But here you have a man who, if you check, of course you could also check because in the past, as a member of an organization which was associated, affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, in.

B (20:11)

Some sense it was in past, they're not Muslim Brotherhood.

C (20:16)

And then they're looking and you could see on the same interview. But you once gave. This is like the New Israel Fund critique. You know what I mean? You once gave money to somebody who had ended up being used by Hamas, could have been being used by Hamas in their humanitarian work. It doesn't matter. It's like how the Hartman Institute, we were, were accused of being enemy of the state of Israel because once we received a $5,000 donation from the New Israel Fund, I said, it's true. You know, I feel very bad about that donation because I would much rather if Israel Fund gave us a quarter of a million dollars. Like here it is. But like everybody who gave you money, it's the paper. It's like there's this obsession. But here we have him. Here's this man who embraces such a complexity and such a depth and is turning to Israeli society and what are we doing?

B (21:05)

So let's look at why. Why are we doing this?

C (21:07)

So I gave my explanation which moved me very deeply, was that we have to come to terms with the fact that, that some members of our country are going to have dual loyalty. And until we don't accept their dual loyalty, that's where we're stuck. We're stuck almost in this old anti Semitic. Even though it's different nationalist loyalty test today in right wing America, Jews, you know, our loyalty to Israel is greater than our loyalty to America. We can't be part of maga. We can't be part of anybody anymore. We can't be part of the lgbtq. We can't be part of the feminists because we're Zionists. We also can't be part of MAGA because we're not committed to making MAGA great again. We want Israel to be great again. Everybody doesn't accept that as human beings, of course, we have complex loyalties.

B (21:54)

Right? You see, this has become.

C (21:56)

So this is my. Do you have a different Explanation?

B (21:59)

No, no. Well, let's play it out a little bit. Since October 7th, our ability to expand our conceptual Israeliness as really contracted. And what I think we're seeing in Israel in the relationship to Arab Israelis is this feeling of, let's call it, they're guilty of emotional treason. And it's a category that has no actual consequences in real life. Because as you've said many times in our conversations, you look at the behavior of Arab citizens in practice, and they're loyal citizens. There's been virtually no terrorism coming from Arab Israelis over the last eight decades.

C (22:49)

Can I give you a fact that I just learned today from a right wing political figure who said israel's always concerned about Arabs becoming a fifth column, especially in times of war. There wasn't one single war in Israel in which they shut down the streets, in which they joined with the enemy. In one of the operations, May 2021, there were cities which created, but it wasn't. They never joined the military effort against us, ever. The great fear of this fifth column never materialized.

B (23:23)

Right, right. So in practice, they're upstanding citizens. And wherever Jews encounter Arab citizens, especially in the medical profession, in hospitals, the interaction suddenly becomes not just normal, but often intimate. I don't know if I told you this story, but I had a procedure done about a year ago, and I'm lying on the table just before the operation, and the doctor is Yousef and the male nurse is Yousef, and I'm Yossi. I said, you know, we're all variations of Yosef here. And it was just this really kind of funny moment that seemed completely natural. And if we were to meet outside the operating room, there'd probably be some distance. So there is, since October 7th. And I wonder what it's like in the hospitals now. I wonder if it's different. I fear that it is, that there's more of a wariness.

C (24:29)

But you know where that wariness is, it's dangerous for them to talk about. Yeah. Because they can't get up and say, you know, I'm worried about my family in Gaza.

B (24:39)

I think the war, that's emotional treason.

C (24:41)

That's emotional treason. And as a result of seeing the death, when they come and say, you're committing genocide in Gaza, that's already now political treason. So the grounds are there, it's clear. But Mansur Abbas, the question is, can we create a beachhead?

B (24:57)

So there were two problems, practical problems, with Ra', Am, the Islamic Party. The first practical problem for Bennett and his Jewish partners is that Netanyahu's coalition when they were in opposition to Bennett, made his life miserable and delegitimized the government because of the presence of Abbas's party. They spread the rumor, which people still tell me, they still repeat this, that Bennett gave 60 billion shekel to the Muslim Brotherhood. A, there's no Muslim Brotherhood in associated with it in the Israeli political system. B, it was a totally invented figure. I think the actual figure was something like 5 or 6 billion shekel. They added an established.

C (25:46)

There was a legislation to pass 30 billion shekel, but they never five years and they never.

B (25:51)

Exactly.

C (25:51)

And that was to try to create some equal parity within Israeli.

B (25:56)

It wasn't being given to the. No, it was being given to municipalities.

C (26:02)

Yes.

B (26:02)

And so one of the great victories, and now it's playing out of the right's tactics against the Bennett government was to delegitimize Abbas presence. And of course the irony here was that Netanyahu was pursuing Abbas for months, trying to woo him to join his coalition to replace Bennett. So that's the first problem. The second problem is, is with the party itself. They're not all Mansoor Abbas. And there have been statements in recent years by Knesset members from Abbas party that were really problematic. That pushed my button. And you just said, how do you have these people in government? And so Abbas has not succeeded in Abbasifying his party completely. And look, you know, it's a process. It's a long term process. I interviewed Abbas's spiritual leader, Sheikh Abdallah Dawish, 30 years ago, he's died since and he had made a statement that was interesting. I think it was after Nachshon Voxman was kidnapped and killed and he came out very strongly against it and said, this is against Islam. I said this is interesting. So I went to meet him and we had a two hour argument because he refused to say what Mansour Abbas would say 30 years later that I accept the right, the legitimacy of the Jewish people to a state. And he was dancing around it. He was saying, I don't remember exactly what he said. I remember it wasn't satisfying, but it was interesting enough for me to write about it. And so I'm mentioning this because it took 30 years to get from Sheikh Abdallah Dawish to Mansoor Abbas. And I understand that not everyone in his party is ready. That's a process. But that process will happen only by including them in the power structure and.

C (28:14)

Getting them used to a certain conversation. By the way, if you use that as a litmus test, half the members of the Knesset say things that you would not want to have in your Knesset. Oh, at least people are saying. That's why I never listen to the little statements. It's like, I want to know what the policy is. But I appreciate it.

B (28:33)

It's, you know, when you're in a war. But if it was Knesset members.

C (28:37)

I know, but you'll see, if it.

B (28:38)

Was justifying, I'm with you. Well, we're not against. But if it was just a war against. Here's what was said. We don't support terrorism against civilians, but killing soldiers is not terrorism. Now, maybe according to the laws of war, that's true. But emotionally, Jewish Israeli parents don't want to hear their fellow citizens justifying the killing of their children.

C (29:02)

I appreciate it is. It is one of the things that. One of the lacunas in Israeli conversation is that war, anybody who fights us is a terrorist. It's an interesting. Whether you're attacking soldiers or civilians, it doesn't matter. But I would say that one of the things that I want to put on here, one of our challenges is a challenge of these litmus tests of, what did you say? What did you say? And you're trying really to catch somebody. You're not trying to ask somebody, what can you say? You're not trying to say, okay, let's talk together. Let me talk to you. But also, when there's a very strong power game where we say to you, them, listen, I'm the majority. I'm in power, and I'm going to determine now the conditions of what you have to say. Anybody with dignity wouldn't want to play that. And that's part of what he was crying about. He's like, what do you want from me? You know what I stand for. You know what I stand for. So I think part of the challenge as we move forward, and it's not going to be in the next election, because our society and our politicians aren't mature enough. Maybe it's still one more expression of the post 10/7 trauma. Even though I have to tell you, I'm getting tired of it. I'm getting tired of a society underperforming from its trauma. I accept every soldier, every family has their own individual traumas. But this, I gotta tell you, this umbrella, which we think is this get out of jail card for all moral mediocrity is just, I gotta tell you, is like. Is beneath us.

B (30:27)

Danielle. I'm getting tired of being traumatized.

C (30:31)

So, okay, so now we're coming towards the final thoughts with the s as you look to the future, what are some of your thoughts, some of your hopes? What are you thinking about, about this Abbas? Do you think it's going to change? And for you, Bennett will sit with Netanyahu. So for you, it's like sitting with Abbas or sitting with Netanyahu is not even close.

B (30:51)

Yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. Look, I'm hoping that if and when the opposition forms this next government, it will have some kind of relationship with Ra', Am, with Abbas's party, and it will make sure that the Arab community's needs are being met. Now, one immediate area that is burning, burning importance is the relationship of the police to the Arab community, which since October 7, the police has acted like an authoritarian police, looking at Facebook posts and putting people in prison for expressing their pain or their outrage at the killing of civilians in Gaza. That's their right. That doesn't even qualify as emotional treason, but it's being treated that way. So the first order of business is to change the relationship of the police to the Arab community. And not only is the police over policing the Arab community on issues that it has no business policing, it is drastically under policing the Arab community on the critical issue of murder in their communities. It's coming to the point of mass murder every day. One, two, three murders, and the police is awol. So there are urgent matters that the next government can deal with that can begin to restore the relationship, such as it is, with the Arab minority. And then we can think as a later stage, how do we recreate the expansive coalition of the Bennett Government of 2020?

C (32:35)

I really appreciate this because the next elections are coming and I was getting depressed because we're stuck. We're stuck and you're giving us. Okay, you might be politically stuck, but there's processes we can do in the meantime which could change the whole atmosphere. And I think that's really, really important. And if I would just add, connecting it to last week where we've talked about who's afraid of a Palestinian state. It's who's afraid of Israeli Arab Palestinians in our coalition. And just as I believe Jewishly, I am religiously obligated to create a Palestinian state, so long as it doesn't threaten my existence here, I don't have an existential challenge. The Israeli Arab Palestinian is a loyal citizen or at the very minimum, a law abiding citizen of the state of Israel.

B (33:23)

That's a very important distinction. And that's enough.

C (33:27)

And that's. And they preserve the credit they deserve.

B (33:30)

It given the situation they're in, that might be a law to be a law abiding citizen.

C (33:36)

Dayenu that's enough. And claims, for example, that just like the haredim, they have to serve, the differences of the haredim have been overcompensated. And here you have a community which says you've never seen me and now you want me to serve the country like you're creating. It's just off. But I would just one of my core one of our institute, one of my core personal goals is that until Israeli Arab Palestinians don't feel at home here in a Jewish state, they don't feel that they are the luckiest national minority, indigenous national minority in the world, that they are seen and respect. This is what we should do. So while we have security conflicts, I am uncompromising on issues of security. But when we don't have a security issue and all we have are narratives of chosenness, narratives of trauma, narratives of dual loyalty, these are the narratives that we have to overcome. And as we say in our tradition, inshallah, we will do so. Yossi, it was a pleasure being with you.

B (34:37)

Thanks Daniil.

D (34:37)

Same what if prayer doesn't work? This question strikes us as a distinctly modern one, an outgrowth of the slow disenchantment of the world. But in truth, the question is an old one and one given space to breathe.

A (34:53)

Here from the Shalom Hartman Institute, Thoughts and Prayers is a new podcast that explores what Jewish prayer means and why it still matters. Join host Rabbi Jessica Fisher as she weaves together stories, classic texts and conversations with leading rabbis and thinkers like Yossi.

B (35:09)

Klein Halevi Judaism is about the democratization of the spiritual of Revelation.

A (35:14)

Rabbi Loren Holtzblatt. I was representing Second Gentleman Emhoff as his rabbi on that stage.

B (35:20)

What you had in that moment was.

A (35:22)

The pluralism of America and Rabbi Josh Warshavski.

C (35:26)

Prayer helps me be the best version of myself. It helps me figure out what do I need in my spiritual backpack.

A (35:32)

Thoughts and prayers inspiring new connections to Jewish prayer in a changing world. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

D (35:41)

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Katmanaur and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Natal Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.