For Heaven’s Sake (Shalom Hartman Institute)

Episode Summary: "Between Trauma and Torah: Jewish Leadership after October 7"

Recorded: July 14, 2025, Jerusalem
Released: August 20, 2025
Hosts: Daniil (Donniel) Hartman & Yehuda Kurtzer

Episode Overview

In this special episode, recorded live at the Jerusalem campus amidst a summer disrupted by conflict, Hartman Institute presidents Daniil Hartman and Yehuda Kurtzer reflect on Jewish leadership, the emotional aftermath of October 7, and the imperatives facing both Israeli and Diaspora Jewish communities. Through honest conversation, they probe the personal and communal effects of trauma, consider the tensions within Jewish leadership, and wrestle with the challenge of sustaining hope and moral clarity during turbulent times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Lingering Weight of Trauma in Israel

• Atmosphere of Distress:
  • Daniil Hartman notes that “People are not well. You can see it on people’s faces. You can hear it in every encounter and conversation.” (00:50)
  • The distinction between “trauma” and “post-trauma,” with both carrying heavy personal and communal burdens.
• Sense of Agency:
  • Trauma often severs individuals from their sense of personal agency, which deeply impacts both personal well-being and public life.

2. Jewish Leadership and Emotional Responsibility

• The Expectation to Be "Okay":
  • Yehuda Kurtzer acknowledges:

    "I'm doing okay because I don't believe that I have the luxury to feel anything else. It's a decision. And I was raised in Israel in which men … were trained that you have to be okay when you have to be okay." (03:08)

  • He finds purpose and resilience in “teaching, talking,” describing it as a "holy task.”
• The Costs and Limits of Emotional Detachment:
  • Daniil challenges whether leaders must always “posture a sense of being okay,” questioning whether authentic leadership might require sharing in collective suffering (imo Anochi Betzara).
  • Yehuda relates this to the rabbi’s role: “That’s what it means to be a shalia tzibor a little bit … we have an institution, we have hundreds of workers, thousands of people who are coming here. There’s things we have to do.” (07:16)

3. Redefining the Role of the Jewish Educator

• Letting Go of ‘Fixer’ Mentality:
  • Daniil highlights the trap of believing educators can or should be short-term agents of change, especially amid immense moral and political challenges. (08:22)
  • Yehuda elaborates:

    “I’m not in the ambulance … I’m not stopping somebody from bleeding … You need to give yourself a larger arc.” (09:40)

    • Real, lasting change is incremental, “two years, five years, ten years,” and not always immediately visible.
• Educators as Sustainers of Discourse:
  • Their job is “to flood the public discourse to the best of your ability with ideas and values.” (10:24)

4. Leadership Amid Increasing Political Pressure

• Temptation to Engage in Direct Political Activism:
  • The expectation that religious leaders should take clear, immediate stances: “If you are not directly engaging with these issues in a particular way, you’re a quietist.” (13:33)
  • Policy developments (e.g., changes in US tax-exempt rules for religious organizations) intensify that pressure.
• Preserving Distinctly Religious/Moral Voice:
  • Daniil:

    “Not to argue that our religious and our moral convictions should not be applied to the moral challenges of our time, but also not to let it become so slippery that we're just papering over our political commitments with our religious commitments.” (15:33)

5. American Jews: Agency, Guilt, and the ‘Moral Squeeze’

• Distance and Powerlessness:
  • Daniil explores the North American Jewish experience post-October 7:

    "We don't quite know where that agency comes from. What is the agency that we are meant to express?” (17:09)

  • Cites the Mandy Patinkin NYT interview to illustrate diaspora Jews’ powerlessness and shame.
• Duality of Engagement:
  • Many feel compelled to “scream and yell” about Israeli policies, yet also feel isolated from both Israeli agency and the anti-Israel mainstream.

6. What Do Israelis Want from World Jewry?

• Hope for Partnership, Acknowledgment of Strain:
  • Yehuda:

    “We want you to love Israel. ... There's something deeply important happening in this experiment that's an excuse, in this project of Jewish sovereignty. There's something very powerful about Judaism working itself out in the public sphere...” (20:27)

  • But admits, “...it's getting harder and harder to ask you to play that role. ... How much could I ask of you? Because it's true, you don't have a voice.” (22:04)
• Role of American Jews:
  • Maybe like educators, “flood the public discourse with your ideas and your feelings and your aspirations.”
  • Daniil: “Just not give up. But it’s hard.”

7. Morality, Shame, and the Distance Trap

• Numbers Debate Obscures Moral Urgency:
  • Daniil:

    “The argument about the number of deaths is completely morally obtuse. ... these terms wind up having very little meaning compared to the moral weight.” (27:30)

• Anger vs. Shame:
  • Anger keeps you in relationship, but “the minute you get to a place of real shame, you don’t want to be a part of something ... you want to get it out of your life.” (28:42)
  • Young Jews’ distancing is more about shame than ignorance or malice.

8. The Integration (or Bifurcation) of Jewish Identity

• False Dichotomy Between Judaism & Israel:
  • Yehuda:

    “If one part of your Jewishness is activating shame … as if I have two Judaisms... One is aggravating me and embarrassing me. So could I go back to Sukkos? ... The minute we start talking that way, I think we've lost. As a Zionist, I feel we've lost.” (32:32)

  • Argues that detaching from Israel produces an “impoverished Judaism.”
• Holistic Jewish Education:
  • Daniil criticizes how most day schools fail to embed Israel into the core of Jewish studies, treating it as a mere “history” or “Hebrew” subject rather than an inextricable element of Judaism itself. (35:45)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Yehuda Kurtzer, on the cost of constant resilience (03:08):
  “I’m doing okay because I don’t believe that I have the luxury to feel anything else. It’s a decision… you have to be okay when you have to be okay.”

• Daniil Hartman, challenging leadership detachment (05:05):
  “Pretending that we’re okay is not okay.”

• Yehuda Kurtzer, the educator’s arc (09:40):
  “You need to give yourself a little larger arc. It’s not the arc of an academic ... but you need to give yourself a little larger arc ... as an educator you’re only one small part of that solution.”

• Daniil Hartman, on shame and distancing (28:42):
  “Anger enables people to stay in relationship. Shame is a distancer ... The minute you get to a place of real shame, you don’t want to be a part of something.”

• Yehuda Kurtzer, on bifurcation of Jewish identity (32:32):
  “I think there is no Jewishness without Jewish peoplehood. There is no Jewishness without engaging in this current sovereign project. ... It’s like almost ghettoing.”

Key Timestamps

• 00:50–03:08: The emotional climate in Israel post-October 7; definitions of trauma.
• 03:08–08:22: Yehuda’s philosophy of emotional resilience in leadership; loneliness of the rabbinic role.
• 08:22–12:23: The educator’s arc vs. change agent; what real impact looks like.
• 13:33–16:20: Political pressures on religious leadership today; the risk of conflating politics and Torah.
• 16:29–22:04: North American Jews and the problem of agency, engagement, and partnership with Israel.
• 25:00–28:42: The pain of dissociation and the question of whether liberal Zionists can persist.
• 28:42–32:32: Shame vs. anger in the Jewish experience; the risk of young Jews disengaging.
• 32:32–36:57: The danger of bifurcated Jewish identity; failures of Jewish education to create real integration between Judaism and Israel.

Tone and Style

The conversation is frank, often searching, deeply reflective, and sometimes wry. Both speakers oscillate between personal anecdote and communal responsibility, embodying the podcast’s ethos of "machloket l’shem shemayim"—disagreeing, and grieving, for the sake of heaven.

For Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for anyone grappling with the complexities of Jewish identity, leadership, and moral responsibility in the wake of ongoing trauma and political upheaval. Whether a rabbi, educator, or concerned member of the Jewish community, the questions and tensions explored here will resonate deeply.