Yossi Klein HaLevi (5:10)

I love that distinction. We should remember that.

Daniil Hartman (5:12)

I know it came to me in a recent lecture how I have to refine the categories, but that's Australian community. They're unequivocally committed. And what does it mean to be committed and to be there? Maybe it's their particular history, but there's something so powerful and vibrant and joyful and unique about this community. And in many ways it's a model for other smaller Jewish communities. But there are so many things that the American and Canadian, so much larger, powerful communities could learn that I want to applaud the beauty and vitality of this community before we begin to mourn with them. Because I don't want to reduce decades of creativity and vitality to. This is your identity in the Jewish world, like France, you know, you're the place where terror occurs. It's an outsider spectating in and in many ways being disrespectful. So, Yossi, you also have a very, very close and long standing relationship, far more than I do, I believe. What's unique about this community?

Yossi Klein HaLevi (6:15)

Well, first of all, I love the way you began this. And it's Very counterintuitive to this moment. And it feels to me exactly right that before we mourn and condemn and perhaps even eulogize what was and what probably is not going to be. However the changes are, it's not going to be the same community before and after. It's right, if only to lay out what is being threatened now, what we could lose if the Australian Jewish community starts to shrink, starts to leave for turn so fearful and inward that they lose some of that vitality. So my first trip to the Australian Jewish community was in 1986. It was actually the first lecture tour that I've ever done.

Daniil Hartman (7:08)

Wow.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (7:09)

And it was there I was invited by the Australian Union of Jewish Students. And I had no idea. What do you do? What do you do on a lecture tour? What do you say? And they were just the greatest kids. Of course, those kids are now the elders of the Australian Jewish community. But what I loved about them was this very interesting combination of. On the one hand, they reminded me of American Jews because they felt completely comfortable in their Australian skin. They didn't have fears and neuroses about their place in Australian society like American Jews. But they also reminded me of Israelis because most of them were second generation children of survivors. And there was no place in the Diaspora that I felt more at home in than Australian Jewry, because there's no other Jewish community that has a proportionally larger percentage of survivor families than Australia. And that also accounts, I think, for the strength and extraordinary vitality of the community that you were referring to. There's something about the way in which the community not only carries the Holocaust, but it also to some extent carries the pre Holocaust Jewish life. So, for example, Sydney is where the Hungarian Jews live. That's my tribe is in Sydney. Melbourne is where the Polish Jews settled. And this is an ironclad rule of the community. If you're Hungarian, you ended up in Sydney. Polish Jews ended up in Melbourne. And Australia was the last place in the world where there still was a small branch of the Jewish socialist leader, Labor Bund, which stopped existing after the Holocaust. It continued to exist for a while in Australia.

Daniil Hartman (9:16)

Europe just moved.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (9:17)

Yes. And there was something that was both charming and touching, but also gave Australian Jewry, I think, a tremendous shot in the arm. And at the same time, this is a very old community. The first Jews came from with the first convicts, the first convict ships that were Jews. And so you have this deeply rooted community in their national experience, along with this infusion of deep Jewish commitment, which was then reinforced by successive waves of Jews leaving South Africa and moving to Australia, leaving Russia and Ukraine. So you've had this tremendous infusion of, of Jews coming from very strong Jewish experiences and then taking advantage of the openness and welcome of Australia. And so that brings us to this moment.

Daniil Hartman (10:19)

So first of all, thank you for that. And it's interesting, Australia is also one of the favorite places for Israelis if they want to leave Israel because it's.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (10:27)

The end of the world. And supposedly that's where you go to get away from our Jewish problems.

Daniil Hartman (10:33)

And to our friends in Australia, not just our listeners, but our friends, our first is just a desire to hug you and to be with you. But as you heard of this attack in Banda Yossi, what did make you feel rage?

Yossi Klein HaLevi (10:51)

Not even against the gunmen. The gunmen, I almost relate to them as a force of nature. It's like a storm, an indifferent storm. I don't think about them, I don't care about them. I felt rage toward all of those who over the last two years have turned Israel and its Jewish supporters, which is to say the Australian Jewish community, into criminals that repeated every lie and half, truth and distortion and, and turned us into a genocidal Nazi like country. And so, yes, if we are Nazis, then Diaspora Jews who support us are pro Nazi. They're fair game. And so all those now who condemn and express their solidarity and sympathy and condolences, it makes me physically ill. There was a statement that came out from the association of Imams in Australia, didn't mention the word Jew. They were offering their condolences. They opposed terrorism. How many of those imams helped contribute to the atmosphere that made this massacre possible? And so I thought about all of those people around the world. I thought about those in the Jewish community who have repeated the lies, amplified them, legitimized them. And I felt blind rage. How about you, Daniil?

Daniil Hartman (12:27)

So first, I appreciate that, Yossi, because we're different people. It's not my language, but I think we do have to look at the consequences of vilification. So often we speak about is anti Zionism the same as antisemitism, all of that, you know, we move ourselves deeply with our fine distinctions, you know? You know, and we maintain whatever narrative is critical to us. But when a certain language becomes so vitriolic and where almost everything that Israel does is a crime, everything, there's going to be consequences. There's going to be a legitimacy for the evil which exists to emerge. And that evil is there. But it needs an environment which legitimizes it, which gives it the 5% of courage that it needs to go from being a sentiment into being an action. And I would never say this on my own, and listening to you is very important for me. It is. I wouldn't say it on my own. I wouldn't get to that, because I move in another direction too quickly. And I have to tell you, in that sense, I think you're more right than I am. And I think there has to be a conversation about the language and the environment within which we're living. And it's not about whether the person is an anti Semite. And, oh, I have a good friend, you know, I have such a good friend who's Jewish, so how could I be anti Semitic? You know, it's not that. What are you creating? And I think, especially in smaller communities, you see the consequences of that.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (14:08)

What you're really saying, Daniil, is that the whole conversation about whether anti Zionism is anti Semitism or not is irrelevant because the consequences are as deadly as if it were intentional antisemitism.

Daniil Hartman (14:22)

See, I wouldn't go that far. I learned from you, but I can't become you.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (14:29)

I'm trying. I'm trying.

Daniil Hartman (14:30)

I know there's a lot of people who say, if only you could be more Yossi. I get that. I love my trip.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (14:36)

I get the opportunity.

Daniil Hartman (14:37)

I love the podcast. Yossi's always right. Thank you for sharing. You know, but Yossi's right. Now, you know I love you, but I have to tell you, it's. You know, I agree with Yossi more when my wife says that. I get really. It's like. Then I get like, you know, but I don't believe it doesn't matter. I think it matters very much, as I am slowly, with your help, beginning to try to develop for myself thoughts on antisemitism. Some things that I haven't thought about, I refuse to think about, but the world doesn't let me. And being in conversation with you is teaching me, and I'm learning, but I'm not becoming Daniil. But it makes a big difference, because the minute somebody is an antisemite, at least as it's supposed to be, is that when someone is an antisemite, you don't say they're an antisemite, but this person is an anti Semite, but they're going to help lower the cost of living in my city. It's like anti Semitism is not one of those. But once it's supposed to be a term that ends a conversation, just like, by the way, a misogynist you don't say they're a misogynist, but they're really good. On the economy or the environment, there are moral terms or representations of profound, deep, destructive moral corruption that we don't add the word but to. So it does make a difference, but it means that our response to it is not about the condemnation of the person in terms that they don't see themselves, but it doesn't mean it's any less dangerous. And we as a community have to respond accordingly. So I would still want to maintain.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (16:19)

Such an important conversation. And really this is a bit of a tangent from what we intend to speak about, which is Australia. But maybe it's not a tangent because thinking, for example, about Mamdani and the whole conversation, is he an anti Semite or isn't he an anti Semite? And what you just said helped clarify for me why I felt that it doesn't matter whether he is or not because he has contributed to precisely this atmosphere in which someone is going to take this one step farther than he intended. When you say globalized.

Daniil Hartman (16:58)

He doesn't intend. Right? He doesn't intend.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (17:00)

No, he doesn't intend to attack.

Daniil Hartman (17:02)

Some of his best friends are Jews, you know, he doesn't intend to make New York dangerous for Jews. Right?

Yossi Klein HaLevi (17:08)

Yes, but some of his best friends are Jews and some of his best friends are potential terrorists.

Daniil Hartman (17:13)

Right.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (17:14)

And so when you come down to that, he is a clear danger to Jewish well being. Not because he's going to advocate violence, but again because he is an active contributor to the atmosphere that makes it possible to kill Jews because of Zionism.

Daniil Hartman (17:33)

Right. I want to go to what I felt when I heard as I woke up very early that morning. I was in Connecticut. Today I'm in Washington. This afternoon I'm in Detroit. Tomorrow I'm in San Francisco. I'm in America, I'm not in Israel. And I experienced it as a Jew who's living outside of Israel. I was at a conference run by the Hartman Institute and we had a security guard. Now the security guard in the middle of a hotel in the middle of Greenwich, Connecticut. We have a security guard at the Institute all the time. But it just felt different.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (18:12)

Was this the first time?

Daniil Hartman (18:13)

No, no. We had started after October 7th. You have to. But I felt it. As you know, my immediate response wasn't rage. My immediate response was sadness. Sadness for the Australian Jewish community that I know, that I've come to know, that I've come to love and respect so many great people. My people are suffering. It was a Sadness and a mourning. Not at the Australian environment, but at the experience of this level of horror. I felt a deep sadness that this is now a normative part of Jewish life. This is what we have to carry. We have to carry it. We have to carry that. We're walking in the midst of a normal life. We're sending our kids to schools, we're lighting Hanukkah menorahs, that we're celebrating our Judaism. But there's people who want to kill us. That that factor is a part of our life. I spend so much of my life trying to deny. Now it's interesting. In Israel, it's the opposite. I live with a constant feeling that somebody wants to kill me personally or.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (19:19)

You carry a gun.

Daniil Hartman (19:21)

That's why I carry a gun. And as I watched. Excuse my French. And I don't care if this is. I'm making a mistake. That son of a bitch sitting there on that bridge, each time he shoots and he pulls back again and reloads over and over again as he's. Who's he targeting? He's hunting Jews. Maybe there I felt a little rage. Yossi, you know, I'm going to give you that just watching him.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (19:50)

I'll tell you, Daniil, any Jew who uses the language of hunting Jews is skirting rage.

Daniil Hartman (19:57)

I got to admit, it did. But it wasn't my dominant experience because I wasn't thinking as much about the Australian government, the prime minister, and all of the above. You know, maybe it's also, you know, Netanyahu again, your favorite punching bag, when he said all of this happened because you recognized a Palestinian state. See, you didn't say that. You said something completely different.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (20:19)

You.

Daniil Hartman (20:19)

As I was. Oh, yeah.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (20:20)

No, I thought that was ludicrous. Ludicrous.

Daniil Hartman (20:22)

You weren't saying, okay, this is a moment for me to score some political gain. You were talking about a serious challenge of how we look at. At a conversation outside of Israel and what are the dangers and what are the lines? And the line can't be. Are you personally an anti Semite? You're saying we need different lines. And I think it's really important for us to learn from what you said. So part of me, like, I saw that, like, really at this moment, this is what you're doing. But in Israel, I felt that this event would have been over in a minute. And the brave, I believe his name is Ahmad Al Ahmad. Watching him, you know, you couldn't script the complexity of the conversation of who is coming to save us. And you watch him and you see Him. And it's just the environment, the instability, the fear. And so it's true, I live in Israel and somebody wants to kill me, but because I walk around with a gun, you know, I feel that I have this more or less under control most of the time, as long as there's not an intifada first intifada, second intifada, and we just stopped calling them other things. But, you know, there's many missiles and there's enemies. So in a deep sense, we're crazy. But I'm sure every community, and I'm sure the Australian Jewish community as well, is going to create its own myths of stability. You know, now if we triple our police and we have, you know, there's ways in which as human beings we find a way to return to life. And the question is, you hinted to it, and I want to get to that is what does this mean for the future life of the community? But I felt that Jewish life has to live with this level of vulnerability again. And I think we lived with the myth that we didn't. And I think part of the vitality and the contribution of world Jewry and all the little communities around the world to Judaism, not to Israel, to Judaism, was dependent on their ability to build something beautiful and powerful and ignore their vulnerability. And I felt a deep sense of sadness that, you know, I felt very vulnerable in Greenwich, Connecticut this trip in America. I feel more vulnerable. I do, I feel personally more vulnerable without the myth of stability that my gun gives me. And I felt like I was a Diaspora Jew. I was a Diaspora Jew experiencing this. And I felt sad. I mourned that this is how we have to live in the world because we're going to continue to live in the world. But this is just going to be part of our story.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (22:48)

In thinking about diaspora vulnerability, we need to be more precise because what we're really talking about was the sense of immunity post Holocaust immunity that the English speaking Diaspora.

Daniil Hartman (23:06)

That's correct. Good.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (23:07)

And the Western European Jewish communities lost their feeling of immunity from physical violence in the early 80s with the First Lebanon War. There was a wave of terror attacks and they never recovered from that. France and all throughout Western Europe and Latin American Jewry lost its feeling of immunity from violence in the 90s with the back to back terror attacks, first against the Israeli embassy, then against the Argentinian Jewish community's headquarters in Buenos Aires. So where you still had a feeling of immunity from physical danger was the English speaking Diaspora. Yes, of course there was the Pittsburgh massacre, but we all saw that as an anomaly. And that was the shock of it. And the Jewish community recovered. Yes, it increased security in Jewish institutions, but there still was the feeling that that level of threat is not really going to come to Jewish communities in the English speaking diaspora. The shock of October 7th was that the English speaking Diaspora lost its immunity from physical threat. And we're seeing it successively happen in one part of the English speaking diaspora after another. And it happened in Manchester Yon Yom Kippur, two Jews murdered outside the synagogue. There have been violent attacks in Canada and this is by far the worst of any of the violent attacks and to happen in Australia. You know, when you said earlier that Australia was the place of choice for Israelis to get away from it all, really Australia, end of the world. For it to happen there, you know, this is where I connected to your sadness. It's over. What's over is first of all, the feeling of immunity. The post Holocaust era is now definitively over. And the question for me is what else might be over? This is where my post Holocaust mindset kicks in. And when I listen to Australian Jews being interviewed in the media after the massacre, I know what they're thinking. And what they're thinking is not only is the immunity over, that's clear, but is it possible really for us to continue having the Jewish life that we had until now? And maybe it's over. In Australia. I spoke to a Jewish leader in England, I won't say his name, a very sober man, one of the most thoughtful leaders that I know in the Jewish world. And he said to me, he wakes up in the morning and asks himself, is this the day when I should tell my community that it's time to pack? And he reassured me. He said, we're not there yet. He says, I know we're not there yet, but I'm asking the question. And I think that what has changed all over the Diaspora, Maybe not in American Jewry, but in the rest of the more vulnerable, smaller Jewish communities around the world. Post Sidney, there's the question of is it time? And if it is time or if the time is coming, what do I do? Where do I go?

Daniil Hartman (26:40)

You know, I hear you and I don't think in those terms whatsoever, you'll see. But I do know and admit that not to have that conversation or not to assume that that conversation is part of our life would also be foolish. This is like I would think would be the flaw. If I was living in Australia, would I leave at this moment and I could give an answer?

Yossi Klein HaLevi (27:07)

What would your answer be?

Daniil Hartman (27:09)

My answer would be maybe, but I'm not living in Australia after October 7 in Israel, did I say maybe I should leave? Not for a second, not for an iota of a second. So it's very easy from outside. And you were quoting someone from inside. But I'm not discounting, I'm just saying where I vary slightly from you. And I'm sure every responsible family, everybody with children asks themselves, in what world do I want to raise my children? And part of the problem is I don't know if there's anywhere, if we don't have this myth of stability anywhere that changes that conversation. But I think when you're invested in a community from the outside, you could say, oh, it's over. You know, it's over. When you're there, you don't want to be, you know, the memory of the Jew who said, don't worry, it's going to be fine. But I don't like to over exaggerate Holocaust language because at the end of the day, there's a difference between government sponsored antisemitism and as you said from the beginning, these individuals who are proliferating throughout our communities, they're there and you know, they're there and they're a given. And when, you know, day after day we're watching the reports of the Prime Minister and then now I'm learning that there's the governor of, I forget of South Wales, I'm not saying it correctly and I apologize. But like the government, the institutions are standing and saying, this is not us. Now, whether the Prime Minister has any credibility or not, I appreciate that. You know, like, I hate it when all of a sudden people, you know, you stand with the community when we're being killed. You know, I want you. There's something has to happen. You have to hear the importance of Israel and Zionism to our Jewishness. This is not, you know, a loyalty. Like, you're not hearing us. And now when we die, now you see us. I hate it when people see us when we're dead. That's my father's Torah when he hated when dignitaries would visit Israel and see ya go to Yad Vashem. Like, here it is, I'm building a new life and you're coming to see me in Yad Vashem. Like, that's where we get solidarity. That makes me rage.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (29:20)

You know what? You really sounded like your father there. I heard him, I just heard.

Daniil Hartman (29:25)

You've heard him. But like what? I, I feel that as we talk about this and you know, our People have benefited tremendously. Judaism, it's not a Judaism of Israel, it's a Judaism of Israel and a Judaism of North America and a Judaism of South America and France and, and Australia. There's so much creativity and so many unique features that when you're invested in building it, when you realize you've created something special, the option of leaving, there is always an option to leave, but the price of leaving and you know, I don't want to get to the cliches and I know it's very cliche, but you know, I'm a stiff necked people, like I don't want them to win. And I'm not saying Australian Jewish community, you know, stand up all these cliches, we're going to light the candle and the light is going to overcome the darkness. And I'm mourning. I appreciate that they're frightened, they're frightened. But there is a price to the option of leaving that only the person in the community itself, who knows the gift that they've created for Jewish life today, who knows how, how beautiful their life is, that has to be put into the equation.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (30:41)

I think, look, you know, I would never tell anyone that they have to leave and have to come to Israel. I'm a Zionist, but I'm also a diasporist. And there's a beautiful expression that Jews used to use to refer to ourselves, am olam. Now am olam means two things. It means, and this is the classical way in which Jews understood it, the eternal people. But olam also means literally world, the people of the world. And the fact that we have a diaspora, that there are Jewish communities all over the world, has immeasurably enriched my personal Jewish life. To know that wherever I travel there's likely to be some Jewish community has been one of the great joys of being Jewish with at the same time enjoying the security of having a homeland. So in that sense, we have lived in the richest Jewish time in our history. At the same time, though, I don't think that the question to leave or to stay, that's playing out for many Jews today, not only in Australia, but all over. The more vulnerable parts of the Diaspora is about physical safety alone. I think it's about dignity and about psychological safety. Appreciate that. And you touched on this at the beginning, Daniil, of suddenly being in the Diaspora, experiencing Australia and knowing I have to depend on someone else to protect me. And the rage that you're hearing in the Australian Jewish community, and you hear it in Canada and you hear it in England, the same language is you. The people we trusted, the government, the police, you've betrayed us. You haven't listened. You're supposed to protect us. Now, when you go through that experience and you have the alternative of a place where Jews are protecting themselves, even though it is actually more physically dangerous to be a Jew in Israel than any other place in the world, the odds are of getting killed as a Jew here are much greater than they are anywhere else. Nevertheless, we as a collective have the dignity of protecting ourselves, and we have the psychological security. We may be the most insecure physically, but we are actually the strongest Jewish community in the world psychologically. And that, I think, is something that a lot of Jews post Sydney are asking themselves.

Daniil Hartman (33:24)

I would just as we bring this to a conclusion, I would just add that part of the insanity of Israelis is their myth of stability, of security, psychological. But I grant you that it does. And I'm a Zionist who has chosen to live in Israel in no small measure because of that. That's not the only reason, Daniil, you.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (33:45)

Are so much of a Zionist that you made aliyah twice.

Daniil Hartman (33:48)

Twice. That's exactly correct. And that's part of the story. And according to our tradition, God gave our Torah at Sinai. And the most important part of our tradition is not who gave us the Torah, but where did it go to. And it came down to earth. And in Jewish history, coming down to earth was not just coming down to a people sovereign living in their homeland. It came down to a people who lived all over the world. And part of the beauty and greatness of our religious tradition is that we didn't just create ghettos and survive the environment within which we lived. And that was always the test of Jewish seriousness. But in reality, we learned, and our tradition became greater and deeper and richer because we had people who we were talking to. We had societies and cultures and values and sensibilities that entered into our tradition. So I also. I don't tell people to move and I don't tell people to stay. Everybody has to make their choice. But I know that who we are as Jews in the world, that the gift of Judaism, part of that gift is the gift that the Australian Jewish community has given us. And what they've created, they are a light. And as every community learns and enriches that tapestry, so my sadness is that we have to live with that insecurity. And it's not just psychological, but I want Israel as a center of Jewish life. But I love Israel in which the Jewish people have many homes. And who we are as a people and who we are as a tradition has grown and been enriched by it. And so to my friends in Australia and to all Jews, we mourn with you, we hug you. We're there in whatever way we can. But in many ways, this is yours. You're going to heal and you're going to work. And you know the price. The price because you know what the beauty and depth of what you created. Any truly last words, Yossi, just to.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (35:53)

Echo what you've just said, to send love and an embrace to the Jewish community in Australia and to Jews all over the world who are grieving and wounded and afraid.

Daniil Hartman (36:08)

Yossi, thank you very, very much.

Narrator (36:13)

What if prayer doesn't work? This question strikes us as a distinctly modern one, an outgrowth of the slow disenchantment of the world. But in truth, the question is an old one and one given Space to.

Podcast Announcer (36:26)

Breathe Here from the Shalom Hartman Institute, Thoughts and Prayers is a new podcast that explores what Jewish prayer means and why, why it still matters. Join host Rabbi Jessica Fisher as she weaves together stories, classic texts and conversations with leading rabbis and thinkers like Yossi Klein.

Yossi Klein HaLevi (36:43)

Halevi Judaism is about the democratization of the spiritual of revelation.

Podcast Announcer (36:48)

Rabbi Lauren Holtzblatt I was representing the second gentleman Emhoff as his rabbi on that stage. What you had in that moment was the pluralism of America and Rabbi Josh Warshavski.

Daniil Hartman (36:59)

Prayer helps me be the best version of myself. It helps me figure out what do I need in my spiritual backpack.

Podcast Announcer (37:05)

Thoughts and prayers inspiring new connections to Jewish prayer in a changing world. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Narrator (37:14)

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and Arc Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kyle, Pat Manor and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Natal Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Samo. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.