Breathing Again

Summary

For Heaven’s Sake — “Breathing Again” (October 10, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this milestone episode entitled “Breathing Again,” hosts Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi reflect on a pivotal moment for Israel and the Jewish world: the return of all Israeli hostages after two years of war following October 7th. They discuss the societal, political, and spiritual significance of this moment of collective relief—a moment they liken to “breathing again”—while also contending with the meaning of victory, the complexities behind this achievement, and the challenges and hopes that lie ahead for Israel and the broader Middle East.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional and Societal Impact: “Breathing Again”

• The hosts repeatedly refer to the return of the hostages as a moment where Israelis can finally exhale after years of collective tension and grief.
  • Donniel shares the experience of waking at 2:20 am to good news, experiencing for the first time in years a sense of hope and joy (02:21).
  • Yossi describes how “this is the first time since October 7th when I think about the situation we’re in, and I’m literally...I’m not holding myself tight” (00:38, 04:48).

Notable Quote

“Everywhere I'm going, we were expecting. And people were waiting, and over and again, people were talking about the amount of oxygen that they have now access to.” — Donniel Hartman [00:26]

2. Sukkot as a Metaphor for Resilience and Renewal

• Sukkot, the holiday known as “Zman Simchateinu” (the time of our joy), was used as a lens for understanding the emotional restoration happening in Israel.
  • Donniel explains the deeper meaning of Sukkot, not as a celebration of a singular event, but of ongoing relationships and resilience (05:08).
  • The hosts recall how the atmosphere of joy and normalcy was restored—in sharp contrast to the emotional devastation since October 7th.

Notable Quote

“It’s a holiday of joy not because of some momentous moment, but because it celebrates our relationship—an ongoing, sustained, living relationship of care and concern that God has and that God exhibited to us during the 40 years.” — Donniel Hartman [05:37]

3. The Anatomy of the Breakthrough Deal: Moving Beyond Miracles

• The hosts emphasize that this moment was not just a “miracle,” but the result of several interwoven forces:
  • The families of hostages’ advocacy and public demonstrations, applying pressure strategically.
  • The role of Donald Trump (“Trump” throughout the transcript) in bringing the deal to fruition, not just for personal vanity but, as Donniel argues, out of genuine humanitarian concern (09:21–15:27).
  • Sustained military pressure from Israel, which created urgency in the region.
  • Arab and Muslim partners, particularly Qatar and Turkey, who were pressured into delivering Hamas to the negotiating table.
  • This multifaceted, even unlikely, cooperation is described by Yossi as “the miracle”—that all “the opposing parts” of the people and region played a role (09:21).

Notable Quotes

“For me, the miracle...is that the disparate, the opposing parts of the people of Israel all had a role to play in bringing us here.” — Yossi Klein Halevi [09:21]
“Trump put together a coalition, and that coalition also requires a narrative...and we see it in the 20th clause of the Trump peace plan about how America is going to bring Israel and the Palestinians together to negotiate.” — Donniel Hartman [16:43]

4. Redefining Victory: The Power of Returning Hostages

• Yossi and Donniel explore how the deal reframes what “victory” means for Israelis—shifting it from military objectives to the profound psychological and moral achievement of bringing the hostages home.
  • Yossi: “What this deal does is reframe the context of victory. What does victory mean? …The measure of victory for the overwhelming majority of Israelis was this moment, getting all the hostages back.” [20:22]

5. Political Ramifications: Winners, Losers, and the New Map

• Netanyahu’s acceptance of the deal is debated: Was it forced by international realities, outmaneuvering the far right, or a moment of pragmatic leadership?
  • Donniel notes that only a leader like Netanyahu could have sold this deal domestically, shifting the right-wing narrative and diffusing opposition from hardliners (28:08).
  • Yossi observes that the far right, expecting a maximalist outcome, now brands the agreement “Oslo 2” in reference to perceived past betrayals (24:56).
  • The episode explores whether this agreement is a prelude to a new political horizon for Israel and the Palestinians.

Notable Quotes

“They are the big losers here. They really thought, just a few weeks ago...we’re going to be emptying Gaza out.... And what’s so amazing about this deal is [Trump] didn’t forget. He stuck with it.” — Yossi Klein Halevi [24:37]
“If Bennett would try to do this move, Netanyahu would be in the opposition screaming and bringing a million people out. Betrayal. Betrayal.… him doing it, Bennett, everybody else is lining up and supporting.” — Donniel Hartman [28:08]

6. Regional Dynamics and the Long-Term Vision

• The hosts argue that while Turkey and Qatar were tactically necessary, the strategic alignment should now pivot toward partnership with the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia for lasting regional change.
  • Yossi: “We need to treat the Abraham Accord countries as partners.… The long term goal [is] bringing the Saudis into the process.” [29:57]

7. The Unbroken Spirit of Israel

• Donniel closes by invoking the perseverance of Israelis, referencing “Am Yisrael Chai” and the determination to rebuild, move forward, and embrace hope after tragedy (30:24).

Notable Quote

“We’re going to rebuild those storefronts and we’re going to rebuild our lives. And when we rebuild, that’s the way you get out of the pessimism and the determinism of warrior nation… I see not just—and this is enough, this is a dayenu…” — Donniel Hartman [30:46]

---

Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• “What this deal does is reframe the context of victory.” — Yossi Klein Halevi [00:10, 20:22]
• Restoration of public joy on Sukkot: Donniel walks through Jerusalem with his family, describing an unanticipated moment of happiness and normalcy (02:35–04:10).
• First feeling of relief since October 7th: Yossi and Donniel share their emotional and physical reactions (04:48).
• Live TV anchor hug: A spontaneous embrace between a general and a news anchor, symbolizing a wave of pent-up emotion released (08:28).
• Debate over credit/blame for the breakthrough: Both hosts explore the complexities of leadership, lobbying, and external influence that led to the deal (09:21–23:34).
• Far right calls the agreement “Oslo 2”: Referencing debates within Israeli society about national identity and the meaning of compromise (24:59).

---

Final Reflections

What’s Next for Israel?

• The hosts agree that the future is uncertain, yet they express hope that this “breathing again” moment marks the dawn of a time of rebuilding, dialogue, and perhaps new hope for resolving the conflict.
  • “We’re going to be in building mode. Building mode, talking mode, hopeful mode.” — Donniel Hartman [31:33]

Closing Wishes

• The episode ends with the hosts wishing each other and their listeners a joyful Sukkot and the ability to “breathe again,” expressing cautious optimism for the future (31:35).

---

Summary Table of Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Quote | Speaker | |---------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | 00:10 | “What this deal does is reframe the context of victory.” | Yossi | | 00:26 | “People were talking about the amount of oxygen that they have now access to.” | Donniel | | 04:48 | “I’m not holding myself tight... this is the first time since October 7th.” | Yossi | | 05:37 | “Sukkot is a holiday of joy…because it celebrates our relationship…” | Donniel | | 09:21 | “For me, the miracle…is that the disparate, the opposing parts...all had a role to play.” | Yossi | | 16:43 | “Trump put together a coalition, and that coalition also requires a narrative.” | Donniel | | 20:22 | “It reframes the context of victory.” | Yossi | | 24:56 | “They’re calling this Oslo 2.” | Donniel | | 28:08 | “If Bennett would try to do this move, Netanyahu would be... Betrayal, Betrayal.” | Donniel | | 29:57 | “We need to treat the Abraham Accord countries as partners… bring the Saudis into the process.” | Yossi | | 30:46 | “We’re going to rebuild those storefronts and…our lives…” | Donniel | | 31:35 | Wishing a joyful Sukkot and the ability to “breathe again.” | Donniel/Yossi |

---

Tone & Takeaways

• The tone is thoughtful, deeply personal, and at times emotional, blending political analysis with spiritual reflection.
• Both hosts grapple candidly with the complexity and contradictions of this moment, but end with an affirmation of hope, resilience, and unity.
• The episode is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the emotional, spiritual, and political stakes of this turning point in Israel’s history.

Transcript

[Alana Steinhein]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What this deal does is reframe the context of victory. What does victory mean? What this shows is that the measure of victory for the overwhelming majority of Israelis was this moment getting all the hostages back.

[Daniil Hartman]

Everywhere I'm going, we were expecting. And people were waiting, and over and again, people were talking about the amount of oxygen that they have now access to. And it's a beautiful moment.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

This is the first time since October 7th when I think about the situation we're in and I'm literally. I'm not holding myself tight.

[Daniil Hartman]

And we're going to call this episode Breathing Again without a question mark. Foreign. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, For Heaven's Sake, in cooperation with Arc Media. For heaven's sake, we're dropping Israel at war.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Wow, what a milestone for us, really.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's two years. Hard to believe in two days. And we're going to call this episode Breathing Again Without a question Mark. Maybe not with the biggest exclamation point, but Breathing Again. And we want to talk about Israel at this moment. We want to talk about how do we understand how we got here? Not a large or long retrospective of the last two years. Maybe that's something that has to happen at another time. But how do we understand what got us here? And by understanding that also, what are the foundations for some hope for the future? I could say personally, you know, by accident, I Woke up at 2:20 and as I have been doing since Israel's at war, anytime I wake up, I check my phone. It's not always the best thing to do, but every time I check my phone.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

How long does it take you to go back to sleep?

[Daniil Hartman]

That's another thing. It depends on the news. It depends on the news. Last night I didn't go back to sleep. 2:20. It was 2:00', clock. Trump made the announcement and I couldn't go back to sleep.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

When it's bad news, you can't sleep, but when it's good news, you can't sleep. Right?

[Daniil Hartman]

It's just you're so excited. And that evening, we're in the middle of the holiday of Sukkot and Jerusalem. In prior years, before the war shut down Beit Lechem street, which is a street in the baka neighborhood, about 500 meters of street, and has a street festival filled with musicians and stores and food and magicians and clowns. And we were walking. I was walking with my wife Adina and my daughter and son in law and my grandchildren. And it was just joyful even before the news.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Was it shut down last year?

[Daniil Hartman]

Yes. And if it wasn't, it just. No one has been celebrating for two years. We might have gone through the motions. So it felt as Israel was normal. We were waiting even beforehand. Now, one of the things that I remember about Israel, which always amazed me, upset me and amazed me because it's just. It's unnatural how quickly during the second Intifada, when there was a major terrorist attack and a bombing or the first Intifada, how the storefronts were swept clean, the glass put back, and within two hours or so.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Daniil Hartman]

The roads open.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You'd never know.

[Daniil Hartman]

There was a time when there's a car accident. The road is closed for a couple of hours. Here we bounce back.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We coerce ourselves to bounce back.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's like almost a ritual. That's right. It's a halacha. It's like this is what we do. And last night I felt it was normal again and it was beautiful. And everywhere I'm going, we were expecting and people were waiting. And over and again people were talking about the amount of oxygen that they have now access to. And it's a beautiful moment. It's a beautiful moment for what it is. It's a beautiful moment for what will hopefully happen soon. And it's a beautiful moment for what it might usher in in the future. Before we get into our analysis. How are you, Yasuk?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Every word. Every word you've just said.

[Daniil Hartman]

How are you feeling?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

That's exactly it, Daniil. You know we're calling this breathing again. This is the first time since October 7th when I think about the situation we're in and I'm literally. I'm not holding myself tight, you know, you were talking about Sukkot. Sukkot was my favorite holiday. I think it was yours too.

[Daniil Hartman]

It is.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I remember us talking about this in the past. And since October 7th last year was, Sukkot disappeared. And this year, until now, there was no Sukkot. For me, it's called Zman Simchateinu, the time of our joy. And there was no joy. And now I feel like we've done at least a partial tikkun on Sukkot. And Sukkot is back. Sukkot is back.

[Daniil Hartman]

You know, if I could wear my rabbi hat for a second. Each one of the three major holidays in our tradition, Pesach, Shavuot and Sukkot all have a name to them. And you mentioned that Sukkos has a name. The time of our joy. Pesach is the time of our freedom. Shavuot is the time of us receiving the Torah. Now it's interesting. Sukkos doesn't have an event. These are. Every one of the holidays has an agricultural dimension to it. But the names aren't associated with the agricultural dimension. It relates to a historical event and the event of Sukkot. Why do we live in these booths? Because the Torah says, because I took care of you for 40 years in the desert in these Sukkot. So Sukkot is a holiday of joy, not because of some momentous moment, but because it celebrates our relationship, an ongoing, sustained, living relationship of care and concern that God has and that God exhibited to us during the 40 years. And it says something about our day of freedom. A one single event that doesn't matter.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

That's beautiful.

[Daniil Hartman]

That's not a day of happiness. It's when you're there day in and day out. And if anything signifies this moment, it's two years of the people of Israel and much of the Jewish world just being there for each other. We're just there. That. That's what counts, by the way, that like the whole notion of parenthood, you know, the quality time is quantity time. There's no such thing. It's quality. And Sukkot is the celebration of our quality time. Two years has been miserable, but we've also been there for each other. And it's time to get back the time of our joy.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And how amazing was it that the announcement coincided almost to the day of October 7th? You know, it's coming full circle. I mean, of course there's so much that's been broken that can't be fixed. But one of the things I was thinking about, you know, the strangeness of Sukkot and the anomaly of Sukkot that you. You pointed out. There's another anomaly, which is we're commanded to be joyful, right?

[Daniil Hartman]

It's really.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You must be only happy. And I never quite understood that until the last two years. The last two years.

[Daniil Hartman]

Ah.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Even when we're going through this, you have to at least go through the motions. And now I understand why. Because one of these days, one of these years, Sukkot will be restored to you. And you can't forget at least the.

[Daniil Hartman]

Motions so that you could reactivate it. So how did we get here, Yossi? Here it is. We're breathing again. We're hopeful. Israelis are dancing in the streets. There was this bizarre scene on the news last night in the Middle of the night, when a general who was every night doing a detailed analysis, at just one moment, he just hugged the female anchor like. It was like. And then everybody said, what's going on here?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We couldn't control.

[Daniil Hartman]

We're breathing, we're smiling, we're hopeful. So this wasn't a miracle, or maybe it was. I don't know. My theology doesn't have miracles. But there were real things that enabled this. Let's look at what they are so that we could understand them and understand what we can count on and what we can't. What's important for us today and in the future. So what brought us here, Yossi?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So for me, the miracle, and I do see an element of the miraculous here, is that the disparate, the opposing parts of the people of Israel all had a role to play in bringing us here. And for the last two years, each camp was negating the other. You're impeding the release of the hostages. You're sabotaging. And let's look for a moment at the components. First of all, obviously, the overwhelming credit goes to Trump, but let's look at how that played out, because what happened was the families of the hostages had a brilliant strategy, which was they appealed directly to Trump to save their loved ones. And what they said to Trump was, you're the only one we can depend on. You are the savior. And Trump said, ah, just me, yeah, I can do that. And he took this on to such an extent that he knew the names of hostages, he knew the names of the families. How many times did he have these people in the Oval Office?

[Daniil Hartman]

More than Netanyahu. And if you remember.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

More than Netanyahu.

[Daniil Hartman]

If you remember his speech from Monday, 10 days ago, which seems like a lifetime ago, it dropped. It was, like, almost unplanned. He said, our hostages.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah.

[Daniil Hartman]

Do you remember when he said the first time when he got the American hostage out, it was like. It was so like, ugh, this is. These were our hostages.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

All of them.

[Daniil Hartman]

All of them.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Whether they had American citizens, and he.

[Daniil Hartman]

Experienced it as our hostages.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And then Saturday night, did you notice that Trump retweeted photos from the hostage demonstration, which, of course was a slap in the face for Netanyahu, because these are people who've been demonstrating against him. And Trump was saying, this is my camp. And the brilliance of the strategy of the families. And to say, we're going to nominate Trump for the Nobel Prize, they played to his vanity. But I don't think it was only a game. If you listen to the gratitude, the love that I know for many of you, and I understand this, this is hard to hear, but from where we're sitting right now, the families are expressing the gratitude of the whole country. And so that was one piece, which means that the demonstrations of the hostages was a crucial element. The pressure that they kept applying, it wasn't strengthening Hamas. And I have to admit, there were times in the past where I felt maybe the hostage demonstrations are playing into the hands of Hamas, and that wasn't true. The hostage families knew exactly what they were doing. The other piece of this here is that Netanyahu's strategy of applying military pressure created this sense of urgency in the Arab world. And then there was the attack on Doha. Now, it's hard to know. It's really hard to know how this played out, but there is a case to be made that that attack terrified Qatar. And Qatar sought protection from Trump, which Trump then extended in an unprecedented move. He declared that he's going to protect Qatar from any further attacks, meaning he's going to protect Qatar from Israel. But in exchange for that, Trump demanded concessions. I need you to deliver Hamas. And so Qatar and Turkey both delivered Hamas because of Trump's pressure. But in the background here. And again, you know, these are such amorphous elements, it's impossible to know what impact it had. But if you look at the whole package, the demonstrations, the military pressure, we, Trump's negotiations with his Arab and Muslim partners, there's the sense that I have that everyone had a role to play here. And for me, that's the miracle here, is that all the pieces fell into place for me.

[Daniil Hartman]

I have also a package similar to yours with some nuances that I think might point to some possibilities in the future. The first, I also want to start with Trump. We in Israel have never been comfortable with the flattening of Trump's personality. We've always experienced other things, and I appreciate that our North American or American audience feels differently. But we're talking as Israelis today, throughout this process, I believe that one of the things that moved us forward is not Trump's vanity. It's not just, I want to win a Nobel Prize. I think that's part of it. But when you listen to him consistently about Gaza, he speaks about the killing has to stop. Killing has to stop. When he spoke on Monday night, he gave a vision of a new Middle East. He spoke bigger half the time. He spoke about himself, about, I'm the most wonderful and I'm the. That's true. And that's part of the story. But there was another side. There's a humanity and there was a passion to bring this war to an end. And even when he spoke today, we have in the newspapers, when he spoke to Netanyahu in his recent conversation, he tweeted it. Trump tweets the conversation and Netanyahu says, oh, you know, they love me again. What you would have thought is for Trump to say, oh, it's not just, they don't just love you, they also love me and they love me more. That's not what Trump said. Trump said, they love Israel again.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah.

[Daniil Hartman]

He said, you can't fight the world.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What a statement that was for him.

[Daniil Hartman]

What a statement. You can't fight the world. There was a dimension.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What it says about Netanyahu and what.

[Daniil Hartman]

It'S about, it says about Trump. There is that dimension.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I want to put it on the table. No, no, no.

[Daniil Hartman]

I don't care if, you know, I don't run for election. I don'. Care which, you know, our audience. We're going to get hate mail. I don't care. Part of what's at the table here. There was a greatness of spirit which we saw. And I believe that only that dimension of spirit could have pushed this through. But it wasn't just spirit alone. It was also a spirit together with a very, very sophisticated use of, of interests and power. And whether it was the bombing in Iran, whether it's the Sunni coalition, 11 Arab countries, Qatar, Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, nobody has ever been able to bring them to the table together with Israel, together with Israel at this moment. And you have to realize, Turkey, Turkey broke off relations. We can't trade with Turkey. We can trade.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Erdogan said, what we're doing in Gaza is far worse than what Hitler did.

[Daniil Hartman]

So these are people.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It used to be worse, now it's far worse.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's far worse. So we've gotten to far worse. So Trump put together a coalition and that coalition also requires a narrative and part of that story, and we see it in the 20th clause of the Trump peace plan about how America is going to bring Israel and the Palestinians together to negotiate and to talk about a future. It's a very, very amorphic language. We don't know where it's going to go. But when Turkey tells Hamas, you better sign this deal because this is in the best interest of the Palestinian people and Palestinian long term interests. He was speaking in a language that Trump was speaking because everybody was saying from the beginning, why should Hamas give up all the hostages? What's in it for them.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

How many times did we hear people say, they're never going to give up all the hostages?

[Daniil Hartman]

That's right. They're never going to give them up. But the only way that would have been possible is if they were given, and this is the second stage. If they were given a very significant guarantee that the hostages aren't their bargaining chip, they have a better bargaining chip. And that bargaining chip is some future in the Middle East. And Trump communicated that future.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You're talking about the Muslim countries.

[Daniil Hartman]

About the Muslim countries. Not Hamas. Not Hamas. About the Muslim countries. So the first. It's not just the Nobel Prize, and it's not Qatar at this moment. The President of the United States put together a vision, put together self interest and the interest of the region, packaged it with power and force, and changed possibly our region forever. That's one story.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What you're doing, Daniil, and I so much appreciate it, is putting the value of gratitude out there. And Hakarat Atov, gratitude. And I'd like to add one more name, and that's Jared Kushner, because so much of this is his invisible fingerprints. And we owe Kushner Witkoff, by the way. Yes, yes, we owe Kushner the Abraham Accords, which are really the foundation for the next stage that you're talking about.

[Daniil Hartman]

This is the vision. The big picture that Trump was communicating wasn't just a big picture of himself. It was a big picture which could bring a coalition together that we've never seen before. That was one part, the second part, I believe, that brought us to this point. And this is. It's to Netanyahu's credit, but it's also to Trump's credit in understanding that Netanyahu needed this. If Netanyahu would have just stopped the war, say, okay, there's going to be a ceasefire and we're going to have three hostages after you withdraw to Area B, and then there'll be another six hostages from Area C. He couldn't have sold it to Israeli society, which, even though we wanted the hostages back, it would have felt like two years, or it would have been a narrative that warrior nation could not assimilate. The idea that you're getting all the hostages back immediately, immediately. That's what is that psychologically makes almost. It's almost impossible, with the exception of the far, far extreme right, to be able to be against this, a total coalition.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So it's very interesting, Daniil, because what deal does is reframe the context of victory. What does victory mean? We are celebrating as if we've won. We don't know, though, is Hamas going to remain in power? Are they going to disarm? All of that is going to be negotiated in the second stage. What this shows is that the measure of victory for the overwhelming majority of Israelis was this moment. Was this moment getting all the hostages back.

[Daniil Hartman]

The psychological power. And Netanyahu could say justifiably, we haven't withdrawn from Gaza. We're not out. What that means. We all know it's irrelevant because we know that Trump has decided. President Trump and the Arab world, the whole world, we're not going.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We're not going back.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's not that we're not going back because we promised we're not going back because this war, and this is the third point, we have to understand that what brought us here is that this war came to an end a long time ago. You know, we could argue, was going to Gaza helpful or not helpful?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Gaza City.

[Daniil Hartman]

City. Thank you. It's almost irrelevant. None of us know, you know, whether Hamas, all of a sudden, no, we don't know, Stopped wanting to die or not. Like, who knows? I have no idea. It doesn't seem like Hamas was going to accept this deal without the pressure of Turkey and Qatar, without whom they're basically alone in the world. Financially, politically, they have nowhere to go. But I have no idea. It could be that there were a lot of other reasons, but at the end of the day, this war ran its course. And if the continued operation in Gaza City for three months, five months, and then Amit Sehgal saying that we're then gonna go into the refugee camps south of Gaza City for another six months, some picture of creating a total defeat of Hamas in another year's time is a complete misreading of the political map. And Trump himself when he says to Nazi, they're loving Israel again. You can't fight the world. We are fighting the world. So the third thing, first is, I would say, the power and spirit of what Trump put on the table. The second was the particular nature of the deal that was put on the table, which enabled Israel to move in. On the third is that this war, it's time for us to understand it ran its course. The world, they weren't going to let us continue to fight. And, and all of those together brought us to a moment where Prime Minister Netanyahu could recognize and accept the third point. It was so powerful, you can't just speak to the internal base anymore. There's a reality out there. All of those together and more so.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So you Know, what I hear from Netanyahu supporters, and this narrative worries me because it's so simplistic and it plays electorally, obviously into Netanyahu's hands, is that all the credit belongs to Netanyahu for keeping the military pressure on. So that's one extreme of reading the consequences of the Gaza City move. The other side of it is what you're saying, which I also don't accept, which is that it was irrelevant, that it had.

[Daniil Hartman]

I don't know, I'm not saying it's.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Relevant, but it was negligible, that there were more important factors.

[Daniil Hartman]

I don't think that that was the critical factor. Maybe it was.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

No, no, I'm not saying that it was the critical factor. But again, as part of the mix, when you look at the whole picture, you see a convergence of pressures. And here I think that Netanyahu, in retrospect, was justified to push ahead. Now, you and I spoke about this just last week and many times in the past, that the problem with the Gaza City move was that there didn't seem to be a political end game. But as soon as Trump put the deal on the table and the far right's goals were removed, then, at least for me, Gaza City made sense. But just one other point about the far right, and this is something that really needs to be emphasized. They are the big losers here. They really thought, just a few weeks ago, they thought, we're going to be emptying Gaza out. They're all going to be, because Trump.

[Daniil Hartman]

They wanted the Trump deal, the original.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Which Trump, you know, he puts it out, then he forgets it. And what's so amazing about this deal is he didn't forget. He stuck with it, you know.

[Daniil Hartman]

No. And he, he was explicit. Absolutely. Do you know what they're calling this, the far right on social media? Oslo 2.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yes. Yes, I saw that.

[Daniil Hartman]

They're calling it Oslo 2.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And I think you want to unpack that.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yes. That Oslo, which was the great capitulation and destruction where Israel agreed to withdraw from territories and to create a Palestinian state, or at least move in that direction, was the beginning of the end of the Greater Israel vision, which ultimately led to the second intifada, which ultimately led to the disengagement from Gaza, seeing this as Oslo too, is seeing Israel moving away from warrior, messianic nation.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, the comparison they're making with Oslo, too, I just saw this on social media today, is that Robin entrusted the security of Israel. Correct. Of Israel, which he didn't. But that's their reading to the Palestinian Authority, and that we are now entrusting our security to others. Now we're not entrusting our security, certainly not the Hamas, and we don't know what's going to play out on the ground. So there's a certain amount of hysteria here. But I think that what it's really expressing is this profound sense of betrayal that they feel toward Netanyahu.

[Daniil Hartman]

Absolutely.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We were supposed to be rebuilding the settlements and expelling the Palestinians and rebuilding the temple.

[Daniil Hartman]

Like what are we going on?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's talk about long term plans. Right.

[Daniil Hartman]

But I do think that part of as we look to the future, there is no doubt, and Trump said this himself again today, this is not about Gaza. This is a larger move. And Israel is being positioned, forced, whether it's against its will, whether it's in its interest. With Netanyahu, you never know, because Netanyahu is not such an ideologue and he prefers to go to a certain place, but never to say that this is where I ideologically want to be, this is where I'm forced to be. So he is moving Israel with this, to a certain place in which there is a political horizon, at least on the table. And if the United states, together with 11 Sunni countries, all don't just sign a theoretical statement about if Israel withdraws, you know, we'll recognize Israel. But if serious plans are put forth, plans which speak about changing the Palestinian Authority ideas of allowing other forces to ensure security, the whole, changing the education system, the whole big package. That package is a package when they look at it. It isn't Oslo, whether we're being hugged to death because Trump knows how to push us, but hug us at the same time. And that's his brilliance. But Netanyahu is moving now. Could another prime minister have been coerced by Trump to the same degree? It's possible that everybody, just like Qatar and Turkey, were coerced, that a Bennett would be coerced. But the difference would be that if Bennett would try to do this move, Netanyahu would be in the opposition screaming and bringing a million people out. Betrayal. Betrayal.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Betrayal. Betrayed. The fallen soldiers, the whole story.

[Daniil Hartman]

How dare you ever, ever him doing it, Bennett, everybody else is lining up and supporting. So it could very well be that Netanyahu also gets a lot of credit here for his lack of ideology or accepting and reading the international map right now and realizing that this is the way to go. And so for that he too gets credit. And his right wing supporters, the right wing of the Likud and those from the Smochech Benvir camp, that group of people, let's call them 20% or so of Israeli society are rightful to say, is this Oslo too? What's going to come? Is this the pattern? But if we look at this model, it gives us also great hope. A moment for last thoughts for today. We'll know much more in the days to come.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I think the challenge in moving us from this point to beginning a long term vision for the Middle east is shifting the dynamic away from Qatar and Turkey toward the Gulf states and the Saudis. And this I think is something that we need to watch. And we had no choice. Trump had no choice because it's Qatar and the Turks that have leverage over Hamas. But in terms of reshaping the future of the region, we have to really be shifting the weight toward the Saudis and the Gulf states. And here Israel has a very important role to play and a great responsibility. We need to treat the Abraham Accord countries as partners. And we need to look at this relationship not only in terms of what we're getting, but what they need from us as well. That's what a partnership means. And of course, with the long term goal of bringing the Saudis into the.

[Daniil Hartman]

Process, my last thoughts is we're here because for two years and two days, the spirit of Israel wasn't broken. For many people. They focused on the hostages. That was what they could focus on. Like that was the objective. It almost became transcendent in a certain sense. But it was indicative that, you know.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Such an important point.

[Daniil Hartman]

I'm Yisrael Chai. Like, we were hurt on October 7th. Our families, we died, we sacrificed, we paid prices. Our families have been broken up. The amount of challenges in marriages and PTSs and wounded, it's just huge. But at the end of the day, the spirit didn't break.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's beautiful.

[Daniil Hartman]

We're going to rebuild those storefronts and we're going to rebuild our lives. And when we rebuild, that's the way you get out of the pessimism and the determinism of warrior nation. And you'll see it doesn't take a lot for me to be optimistic. But I see not just and this is enough. This is a dayenu, hopefully Sunday. No one knows the exact day. All our hostages who are alive coming back.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What a moment that's going to happen.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's going to take a couple of weeks, but I'm hoping that almost all, if not all of our dead hostages will also come back to be buried in Israel and then slowly but surely with all of its uncertainty. We're going to be in building mode. Building mode, talking mode, hopeful mode.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Beautiful. Thanks, Daniel.

[Daniil Hartman]

Let's hope and wish each other a happy Sukkot and to wish all of our audience breathe again. Better days are coming. Thank you, Yossi.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Thank you.

[Alana Steinhein]

What are we supposed to do and say and be during this time?

[Daniil Hartman]

Judaism has so much complexity to it and so many layers to it that.

[Daniel Goodman]

No one layer stands by itself.

[Alana Steinhein]

What you have is Jews who for the very first time feel like their value system is out of sync with the broader sector. I'm your host Alana Steinhein. Welcome to Texting IRL where we wrestle with the dilemmas of Jewish life through the lens of of classical and modern Toretics. I am so fortunate that I have a friend and a colleague who I can talk to Jacob Feinspan, Diana Ginsberg, Dalia Lithwick helping us think through these big questions.

[Daniil Hartman]

Why are you guys part of this? What calls you personally to it?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What are some of the other things.

[Daniil Hartman]

That you work on? What's at stake for you?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I think one of the challenges is.

[Alana Steinhein]

To figure out how much failed democracy we as Jews can tolerate.

[Daniil Hartman]

We have to find opportunities to make enemies into friends.

[Alana Steinhein]

The model is so majestic in this text. Listen now to Texting irl, a podcast from the Shalom Hartman Institute, available wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Beauty of Jewish Interpretation.

[Daniil Hartman]

Exactly.

[Daniel Goodman]

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Maital Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our [e-mail].