Yossi Klein Halevi (5:33)

What I want to say is that this is one of those moments of Israeli family that remind us why it's worth living here, why we put up with the Israeli pressure cooker. And on one level that's true. I think so many of us. You said that a majority of Israelis support the deal. The numbers are over, over 80%. And last night I couldn't sleep. I was just lying in bed thinking about, is it going to happen? Will it happen? And I finally just gave up on sleep and followed the non existent news because of course we weren't being told anything last night. So on one level, a majority, a strong majority of Israelis are having one of those Israeli family moments. But it's more complicated. Like everything else about this war, we know that 20% that oppose the deal, many of them are actively opposing it. I don't ever remember seeing demonstrations against a hostage deal last night we had. It's true it was only hundreds, but nevertheless, there were hundreds of right wing demonstrators who block traffic that entrance to Jerusalem, including members of Knesset, members of this government. And this hostage deal, more than any comparable event in our history, is leaving us with a bitter taste. First of all because of the divide. Secondly, because it's leaving behind any number of hostages. We don't know how many of them are alive. And there's this nagging feeling that so many of us have that the government is not going to prioritize their release, that something is going to go wrong because we're dealing with a government where things inherently go wrong. And there's this such a fundamental lack of trust on the part of so many of us in this government that it's also leaving this deep sense of unease. And what Israelis crave, I think more than anything else after almost a year and a half of war and the anguish of the hostage drama, is a sense of closure. But we all know we're not getting closure. There's not going to be closure. And so, yes, we're desperate to see those who are being released home. We're desperate to see the fulfillment, the partial fulfillment of the promise of Derek Eretz. But I also think that name is bittersweet because what I hear, and maybe it's unconscious, but I also hear in that name a rebuke to those Israelis who had other priorities and for whom Derek Eretz was not their default position. So I don't want to say what I've just said. I really want to just be in this moment of joy and relief. And again, part of me certainly is there, but there's a deep ambivalence at the same time.

Daniil Hartman (8:55)

You know, Yossi, as I hear you, we've never had since this war a single moment that's not ambivalent. And the truth is it's exhausting. And I sense it's not exhilaration. You don't sense in the street any exhilaration. You sense for those who are for the deal that we're doing the right thing. And it really is divided between those who make calculations and those for whom common decency is self evident. And, you know, one of the interesting things about common decency is that it's usually not that common and it's not that common. And also, what one thinks is common decency is not for the other. It all depends on to what extent ideal ideology, religion, beliefs enter into your core moral intuitions. And they always do. Inevitably, they inevitably do. And for those who are for the deal, I think, as you said very beautifully, there's a Family moment where we just have to do this. And there'll be a time for us to bemoan the numbers of terrorists and the horrific nature of their crimes. Those people who are going to let out either into Gaza or Turkey, Egypt or Qatar or somewhere else in the Arab world, there'll be time to bemoan all of that. For some, it's just a time to stop calculating. But for others, they're actually quite frightened of common decency. They feel that this is a weakness, that in Israeli society, families have notions of common decency. But this is a country and for them the closure that they want. This is really what we're facing, Yossi, is we have two competing notions of closure. One is a closure to get back to life. And it's true. And I think the secret of Israel is that we live in a crazy neighborhood under impossible conditions. And part of what we have to do is to deny. Now we have to learn not to deny the level that it will create existential dangers like October 7th. But some measure of denial is necessary. Otherwise, what are you going to do here? Like how we want to get back to our Life and these 80% feel that we can't get back to our life when our family is still there, they're still in these tunnels. There's no return. We know we've changed the balance of power. We know we won the war in the larger macro sense. So that's the closure they want. There's a whole other group who have a very different notion of closure.

Yossi Klein Halevi (11:52)

It's really an important point.

Daniil Hartman (11:54)

Let me just spell out the two parts of it and then what you feel about it. For them, there's two groups. One are people who are still holding on to some notion of complete victory, that until we don't see Hamas waving a flag, we need this complete total military destruction. That's one group. And the other group, like they want to get back to October 6th or, but a better one, where Hamas is gone, there's another group that wants to that for them, closure is going back to a pre 2005 withdrawal from Gaza. And these two groups are meeting together. They're very, very different. One has a fantasy messianic vision of holding onto the land, and the other one are very mainstream, responsible people who can't live with, with the defeat of October 7th without an erasure. And that will only happen if Hamas is destroyed, not if our hostages come home.

Yossi Klein Halevi (13:03)

I think you've put it very well. And listening to you, I realize that part of the closure, the elusive closure that I crave is the reassurance that we're still a decent society that functions as a family. And when I see people blocking the streets to protest the homecoming of Israelis who've sat in these tunnels for almost a year and a half, the thing that strikes me the most is the shamelessness of these people. And I can understand their position, and I do. And as you know, Daniil, that was my position in the first months of the war. I felt we hadn't yet restored our deterrence, and we couldn't stop fighting until our deterrence was reasonably restored. And I think one of the reasons that such a strong majority of Israelis now support the deal is because we do realize that we've come a long way toward restoring the credibility of our deterrence. But how do you stand up in a society that's so desperate to get its people back and protest in the most vulgar way? Or the shamelessness of Ben gvir, the far right minister in charge of the police, who proudly said in a press conference that he is responsible for stopping the same deal that could have been achieved six months ago. Now, this has driven Israelis crazy, because what does that mean? It means that we actually could have had them home six months ago, that the same terms were on the table, but Netanyahu gave in to political pressure. So this is part of the bitterness that I worry about in terms of the impact, the long term impact on the Israeli psyche when I talk about closure. In the past, we'd get our hostages back and there was a certain sense of relief and an expression of solidarity. We all came together, we made this tremendous sacrifice. And whether it was justified or not, in the case of Gilad Shalit, the lone soldier for whom we exchanged 1200 Hamas terrors, including Yikya Simla. And I think most Israelis today would acknowledge that that was deeply problematic. But this is not that for most of us. And yet there's this feeling, you know, we've lost something in our familial capacity, and that's part of what we've lost on October 7th in the aftermath. And this is not going to help us regain that.

Daniil Hartman (15:58)

You know, it's interesting here, maybe our personalities again are coming forth. I have no bitterness in my heart right now, and I'm not shocked by the people who are demonstrating. I disagree with them, but I'm not shocked. And maybe, you know, part of a notion of family is also recognizing that people are going to be very different within your family. And I have no love for Benvir or Smutridge. It's not like our opinions are very similar, but I'm not shocked by it. And you know, and if I put it into some ideological terms, all nationalisms, but even all groups in different ways, larger groups, societies, or especially people on the more ultranationalist spectrum. The greatest danger to ultranationalism, do you know what it is, Yossi? Family loyalties. You want to break family loyalties. The loyalty to the collective has to be overall, has to be more important than anything else. And a willingness to sacrifice, a willingness to die, a willingness to give to the well being of the total and where the individual finds their personal fulfillment in the well being of the total. And the family loyalty unit very often is very dangerous. So you're in our talking about the family. Don't give in to the weakness of the family. Don't give in to the weakness of those feelings. You're supposed to be willing to keep on fighting and to sacrifice for this larger end. And so I understand exactly why they see this deal as dangerous. And paradoxically, I as family. Like right now, I don't know, after listening to the Blinken interview, I don't know how much whether we stopped the deal or whether it was Hamas. Right now I almost want to just let it go. And it is how we move forward. The question you just posed is a very serious question.

Yossi Klein Halevi (18:06)

I really appreciate it, Daniil.

Daniil Hartman (18:08)

You know, part of the way you move forward, Yossi, is also like, at what point are we just going to move forward and stop, you know, this yesterday looking. Are you ready to stop that a little bit?

Yossi Klein Halevi (18:20)

In principle, yes. Emotionally, no. Because I don't think it's only about yesterday. Because the day after this war ends, we're going to be facing a return to the judicial upheaval and a whole series, as we've talked about in previous podcasts, of assaults, laws that are being tabled to undermine freedom of the press. And, and so I think that the problematics of how the hostage issue has been dealt with by this government is really emblematic of a whole wider range of problems. But I really do appreciate the way you frame the need to absorb, to tolerate those among us who oppose the hostage deal within the framework of family. I like that formulation very much. And one of the really subversive elements of a nation as family, and here, I mean subversive against the xenophobic right, is that if you take family seriously, you're forced to expand your parameters to include people whose ideas are abhorrent to you. And so, for example, the far right always speaks about national solidarity and the Jewish Family. But if you're going to really take that seriously, half your people, and here I'm speaking about the Jewish people around the world, at least half the Jewish people are liberal. And so you, as a hardline nationalist, have to include liberals, universalists in your tribal framework, because that's the meaning of family that you yourself have. Have defined. So here, what you're really doing is turning the tables and saying, well, those of us who believe in, let's call it a liberal nationalism are bound by the constraints of family. And that means being forced to tolerate what's so instinctively obnoxious to us.

Daniil Hartman (20:37)

To give this other group credit, October 7th brought out the family in them as well. A willingness to lay everything aside and to stand and to go under the stretcher and to try to save Israel and to fight for Israel.

Yossi Klein Halevi (20:53)

I think you have to explain that Hebrew saying that you just of going under the stretcher.

Daniil Hartman (21:00)

Going under the stretcher is a term of. For those of you who were in the army, you know what it is? A stretcher requires four people to carry. You can't carry a stretcher with three. And the truth is you can't even carry it with four because the weight is so heavy as you're running that you need at minimum 8, if not 12, to constantly rotate all four before anybody becomes completely exhausted, unless it's for 100 yards. But anything that takes a long time. Basically, you need a community to carry a stretcher. And in Israel, the ethos of going under the stretcher is the ethos of taking responsibility, joining the army. Army. It's another way of saying, in English, I think, carrying your weight, but in a much more graphic manner. And this group has a sense of family. This is the tension. At what point does ideology, does politics tell people grow up? Now, for us, this sense of bringing people home is our growing up. We're willing to say, I'm willing to pay the price. I'm willing to take risks. I know I would rather that the 1500 or so terrorists would all rot in jail, but I'm willing to take a risk and to say, you know what? There's enough evil people on the other side. There's tens of thousands of them. Another thousand or fifteen hundred is not going to change the balance of power, especially at this moment. But I can understand, like, each one of these people who's going to be let out and this, like, even those who are pushing the deal now afterwards are going to start fetching and complaining, and we're going to look at the price. It's like, but that's, that's just like an Israeli thing. It's like, it's just. Just going to drive me crazy. But at this moment, there's, it's, it's just as, as you said, it's never simple here. And I want to just put one other complexity that I'm feeling and I'm sensing in all the news feeds. We don't know how many people are still alive.

Yossi Klein Halevi (23:08)

Right.

Daniil Hartman (23:09)

And we have a picture that 60 plus 31. We know the majority are alive, but a majority could be 16 and a majority could 28. But what happens if it's 20 who are alive right now? And what happens if in the second stage when the soldiers and the men between the age of, what is it, 50 and 70 are let. How many of them are alive? So, like, we're on hold waiting for a deal, but y. We're also on hold waiting to know, like, what is it that we're even going to get? That's very, very tough.

Yossi Klein Halevi (23:46)

I think what's also on the minds of most Israelis today are the be bus children, are they alive, what condition are they in, and what condition are the young women in? And we can't bear to think what. What they might have endured. And so these are the issues that I think are gnawing at us. And we won't have closure on that till we actually see them home.

Daniil Hartman (24:19)

And even when we see them home, you'll see we're not going to have closure because our rage, our anger, and at some point we're going to have to just like, we don't forgive, but we just. There's a sense whereby you just have to go on. I believe this is going to rip so deep into Israeli society precisely because of the model of family that you mentioned.

Yossi Klein Halevi (24:43)

The rage against Hamas. Yeah.

Daniil Hartman (24:45)

And then maybe rage again. Well, whenever there's rage, you look for someone to blame because you just, it's. You feel better when there's somebody who's responsible. Hamas is easy, whether it's the government or not, but it's precisely because of the family that's moving us to want to bring them home. But it's that intense family which is also going to be mourning. I'm reading articles. What's going to happen to families who are going to discover right now that they're their loved ones aren't coming back alive? The emotional roller coaster that we are about to undergo here in this country is, I believe, going to be some of the most difficult moments since the beginning of the war. And then on the side, you're going to have those, the prophets who are telling you, I told you so, I told you so, you shouldn't have made the deal. And I'm a little worried right now. I'm a little worried for how, as a people, we're going to manage this really difficult time in the weeks ahead. Last words. Yossi, any thoughts?

Yossi Klein Halevi (25:53)

My takeaway from this conversation, I have any number, but the takeaway that really comes to mind for me personally is the need to accept the inevitability of these disagreements among us and to honor the fears and the pain of those who are on the other side of this issue and to really focus the angst and also the anger on the situation that's leaving some of our hostages behind and the need to keep pressuring the government to honor its commitment to bring everyone home.

Daniil Hartman (26:34)

You know, that's a really important point because that's going to be an explosive issue, because the stages, if the government was ready to withdraw and to declare a ceasefire, you don't need stage one, two and three, unless that's just a more efficient way to do it and to make sure that Hamas is living up to their side of the deal and giving us time to put in place various mechanisms that we need for the day after. But in the back of everybody's mind is, are we going to somehow say what Hamas wants in stage two is a complete ceasefire, which we're not willing to, you know. And Smotrich is already declaring that he'll support this deal on one condition. Yossi, maybe you should comment on this, too. He's going to support the deal on one condition. That Israel commits to continuing to fight Hamas until they're eradicated. So if we're willing to do that, he's for the deal. But what does that mean? Part of a deal is all, you never get everything you wanted. There's no such thing as a deal in which the other side has to give and you don't have to somehow also give. So for the deal, as long as we don't give anything, there's going to be a mess going on here right now. Any thoughts about that? About that argument?

Yossi Klein Halevi (27:55)

We talked about this, I think it was in our last episode, about how the Israeli public generally hasn't faced its internal inconsistencies of wanting the hostages, wanting total victory. Well, this is a moment of truth. And the Israeli public has lined up with not getting everything that it wanted in favor of the hostages. And we have not by any means, heard the last word from Smutterich. And NAT camp. And again, my fear is that those who may pay, God forbid, who may pay the price will be those left behind for the later stages of the deal. And there's still plenty of room for the opponents of this deal to sabotage.

Daniil Hartman (28:45)

The next stage, you know, so Derek Heretz, what is DEREK heretz, what's common decency? Is it common? Are we going to be able to see this through to the end? Very, very. I don't know, joyful, sad, complicated, ambivalent and politically fraught. Times are ahead. But sometimes just connecting to what is DEREK heretz sometimes is a source of strength. Yossi, pleasure being with you.

Yossi Klein Halevi (29:23)

Good to be with you.

Daniil Hartman (29:25)

Let's see what happens. Today is day 467, and maybe the hope of them coming home is a little more realistic today.

Yossi Klein Halevi (29:36)

Be well, my friends.