For Heaven’s Sake – Episode: “Doha”

Hosts: Donniel Hartman & Yossi Klein Halevi
Date: September 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of For Heaven’s Sake delves into the moral, strategic, and psychological complexities following Israel’s recent attack on Hamas leadership in Doha. Against a backdrop of ever-shifting events, Donniel and Yossi grapple with uncertainty, exploring how Israelis and the wider world interpret the action. Rather than political punditry, they offer an introspective, values-driven conversation about leadership credibility, the doctrine of self-defense, and the Israeli psyche in wartime.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Multiplicity of Israeli Reactions

(00:38 - 04:30)

• Polarization over the Doha Strike:
  Donniel outlines how perceptions of the attack are filtered through political lenses—some see it as “abandonment of the hostages” for political gain, others as a bold move, while the centrist view is that negotiations stalled and desperate measures were taken.
  • “Those who know don’t speak, and those who speak don’t know. And there’s so much that we don’t know.” — Donniel (03:43)
• Fluid Emotional Responses:
  Hosts admit to cycling through a range of reactions—from satisfaction at striking adversaries, to concern about motives, to suspicion of international involvement, and confusion over political implications.
  • “My first response was, great, those bastards. We finally got them. My second response was, why is Netanyahu doing this now? What is going to be the impact on the hostages?” — Yossi (04:57)

2. The Unknowns and Moral Ambiguity

(06:00 - 07:00)

• Uncertainty Over Success and Impact:
  Both acknowledge lack of clear information about the operation’s outcome or effect on hostage negotiations. There’s even speculation that a failed attempt might motivate Hamas toward a deal.
• International vs. Israeli Perceptions:
  Yossi highlights a “chasm” between near-universal Israeli support and fierce international critique, especially regarding violating Qatari sovereignty.
  • “Qatar is, for all practical purposes, the eighth front of this war. It is the principal supporter of Hamas...So Qatar is an enemy.” — Yossi (07:40)

3. Israeli Consensus on Self-Defense

(09:09 - 12:00)

• Lack of Moral Dilemma:
  Both hosts are struck that the Israeli left and right, even those critical of Netanyahu, largely agree on the necessity of targeting Hamas leaders if civilians are not harmed.
  • “The fundamental principle...is the moral obligation of self-defense. To kill those who are pursuing you...there is no moral dilemma.” — Donniel (10:13)
• Addiction to Secret Operations:
  Israelis crave operations like Entebbe or the Munich assassinations—clean, targeted, with few casualties.
  • “We hate war, but we love these secret operations. We love Entebbes.” — Donniel (11:24)

4. National Psyche and Zionist Doctrine

(12:00 - 16:36)

• Borders & Self-Protection:
  Israeli ethos accepts crossing borders for self-defense, rooted in Holocaust memory and the principle that Jews must defend themselves wherever threats emerge.
  • “It’s the myth of Zionism that we could protect and that we could prevail.” — Donniel (12:41)
  • “Borders are irrelevant when it comes to defending ourselves, and that...puts us in a very uneasy relationship with the international community.” — Yossi (12:58)
• From Violence to Rescue:
  The same doctrine underpins both dramatic rescues (e.g., Operation Solomon in Ethiopia) and targeted assassinations.

5. Desire for Alternatives: Is Killing All We Know?

(16:36 - 18:54)

• Critical Voices from Home:
  Both hosts cite their wives questioning whether lethal force is Israel’s only recourse.
  • “All we know how to do is kill people. Yeah, like we're killing again.” — Yossi (16:57)
• Is There a Negotiated Option?
  Donniel questions if a deal could have been made and whether pursuing only deterrence and military might forecloses other strategies.

6. Leadership Credibility & Strategic Concerns

(18:54 - 21:41)

• Credibility Deficits:
  Yossi voices deep mistrust in Netanyahu’s motivations and judgment, especially as seasoned security leaders reportedly opposed the timing of the strike.
  • “If you do an action that alienates the international community...to becoming a pariah state, was it worth it?” — Yossi (18:54)
• Decision-Making Process:
  Operations not discussed broadly in cabinet, making even supporters uneasy about possible political motivations.

7. Broader Implications: Gaza City, International Standing

(21:41 - 24:54)

• Strategic Questions:
  The attack raises questions about wider military objectives—if targeting leaders suffices, what about the rationale for massive operations in Gaza City?
• Trajectory of Isolation:
  Concern that Israel, through repeated aggressive acts, risks international pariah status and shrinks its alliances.
  • “Your universe will be you and Trump and any other dictatorship...That’s our community of nations. And that’s just happening.” — Donniel (22:38)

8. Three Principles for Fighting Terrorism

(23:38 - 24:18)

• Essential Elements:
  Yossi distills three non-negotiable principles for confronting terror:
  1. Credibility of leadership to unite the people—absent in Israel today.
  2. Moral credibility before the international community—also lacking.
  3. Preventing the “evil” from corrupting your own society—a concern given the far right’s power.
  • “How do you fight terrorism when you’re lacking the most basic elements of credibility, and not only credibility abroad, credibility within your own people?” — Yossi (24:19)

9. Final Reflections & Unanswered Questions

(25:39 - 27:13)

• Return to Moral Framing:
  Relief that the action targeted leaders, not civilians, but unease about endless ambiguity over outcomes and strategy.
  • “Is Doha part of the solution? Is it an indication of the Israeli syndrome? I don’t know. Time will tell.” — Donniel (27:08)
• Value of Honest Discourse:
  Both express gratitude for being able to process public events through a thoughtful, values-based conversation, rather than getting lost in media cycles.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lived Uncertainty:
  • “Those who know don’t speak, and those who speak don’t know.” — Donniel (03:43)
• On Israeli Psyche:
  • “It confirms our most flattering sense of ourselves. It’s the Jewish intelligence at work. It's a survivor people that has internalized the lessons and is willing to go to any length to defend itself.” — Yossi (12:00)
• The Limits of Force:
  • “All we know how to do is kill people. Yeah, like we're killing again.” — Yossi (16:57)
• Strategic Dread:
  • “If you do an action that alienates the international community...to becoming a pariah state, was it worth it?” — Yossi (18:54)
  • “You will be a pariah, culturally, politically, all over Europe, just you and Trump...That’s our community of nations. And that’s just happening.” — Donniel (22:38)
• Three Principles for Fighting Terrorism:
  • “The first is...credibility of the leadership to unite the people. We don’t have that. The second is...moral credibility in the international community. We don’t have that. The third is ensuring that the evil that you’re fighting against doesn’t penetrate your own camp...And we don’t have that anymore either.” — Yossi (23:38, 24:18)

Key Timestamps

• 00:38 – Donniel frames the episode’s questions; range of public reactions
• 04:30 – Yossi journeys through multiple emotional responses
• 07:01 – Israeli vs. international views on the operation
• 09:09 – Moral consensus on self-defense
• 12:00 – Operations and the Israeli psyche
• 16:36 – Self-critique: “Is killing all we know how to do?”
• 18:54 – Yossi’s concerns about overreach, leadership, and decision-making
• 21:41 – Strategic implications for Gaza City and Israel’s global standing
• 23:38 – Yossi’s three core principles for combatting terrorism
• 25:39 – Final reflections on uncertainty and the search for broader strategies

Conclusion

Donniel and Yossi use the Doha operation as a lens to examine Israel’s current crisis—of leadership, strategy, and moral standing. They ask not what the government’s next move will be, but what it should be, for the sake of Israel’s soul. The episode offers a compelling look at the tensions between action and principle, self-defense and self-reflection, in a nation at war and a people searching for answers.