For Heaven’s Sake – “Gaza City”

Host: Donniel Hartman & Yossi Klein Halevi
Date: September 3, 2025
Presented by: Shalom Hartman Institute & Ark Media

Overview

In this emotionally charged episode, hosts Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi grapple with the Israeli government’s decision to launch a renewed assault on Gaza City nearly 700 days into the war. They reflect on the personal and national toll—especially given the mounting cost to both Israeli society and Gazan civilians—and debate whether the operation has genuine military or moral justification. The conversation is accented by Donniel’s personal mourning for his mother, adding a layer of poignancy and introspection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Reflection and Loss

• Donniel opens the episode sharing news of his mother’s recent passing, noting how her intellectual vibrancy and presence shaped both him and the podcast’s journey.
  • “Part of my experience of this podcast… is not just talking with you these last years, but it’s also talking to my mother and sharing and talking about the Jewish people and Israel and the future.” (01:32, Donniel)
• Yossi offers condolences and a tribute, highlighting her wit and deep love.

2. Context: Renewed Gaza City Offensive & National Debate

• Donniel provides background on the Israeli government’s decision:
  • Push to invade and capture Gaza City instead of a partial deal.
  • Internal government and IDF controversy—top military and intelligence officials reportedly oppose the move.
  • Humanitarian implications: displacement of a million Gazans, hostages presumed to be held in Gaza City, anticipated Israeli casualties.
  • “This is the moment of Gaza City. What does it mean and feel to you, Yossi?” (04:50, Donniel)

3. Military and Moral Calculus

Diverging Priorities Between Government and Military

• Yossi details leaked accounts of Chief of Staff Zamir’s warnings:
  • Endangering hostages.
  • Necessitating long-term Israeli occupation.
  • “If you're looking for a yes man, find someone else.” (05:34, Zamir, relayed by Yossi)
• Zamir builds a chart emphasizing four categories of concern: military outcomes, hostages, humanitarian crisis, and international opinion. (07:53–10:20)

Debate Over Justification

• Donniel critiques the proposed invasion as lacking military rationale—risking civilian lives and hostages for symbolic victory:
  • “Gaza City is almost this purposeless act with horrific consequences.” (10:26, Donniel)
• Yossi partially disagrees, believing it is a “moral imperative” to deny Hamas the ability to govern, but ultimately concedes the invasion’s likely disastrous outcome outweighs possible gains. (10:28–12:21, Yossi)

“Total Victory” Doctrine & Historical Parallels

• Donniel challenges the premise that only eradicating Hamas ensures security:
  • Points to Israel’s historical approach—never complete disarmament of state adversaries, but containment.
  • “The war will never end” if the goal is total disarmament. (13:56, Donniel)
• Yossi raises the uniqueness of battling a terrorist group vs. a state.

Turning Point in Understanding

• Donniel explains his shift in May 2024: by then, military threats had been neutralized, weakening the justification for continued operations:
  • “By May… Hamas as a highly functioning military terrorist organization, had really been defeated.” (17:10, Donniel)
• Suggests continued war is now more about political optics than security.

4. Social Divisions and Army Morale

• Yossi evokes memories of Lebanon 1982 and Yom Kippur 1973, warning Gaza City could become a deeper trauma:
  • “Netanyahu… has a more proven ability to sabotage his own extraordinary achievements… Gaza City, for me, is going to be… the crowning failure of his 18 years in power.” (21:44, Yossi)
• Cites internal motivations: Most reservists are driven by loyalty to the hostages, not political goals. Public support is fracturing.

5. The Hostages, Political Legitimacy, and Moral Reckoning

• Donniel posits that if the government had openly said some hostages could not be retrieved without existential risk, such a stance would have a tragic but “coherent” logic.
  • “But the problem with Gaza City is that this is not an existential dimension of the war… So you're killing the hostages, not in order to achieve an existential victory.” (23:08, Donniel)
• The hosts discuss how the increasing perception among Israelis is that the current campaign is driven by political calculus, not national survival, risking both lives and Israel’s international standing.

6. The Prospect of Hope (“Nechama”)

• Yossi finds assurance in Chief of Staff Zamir’s principled stand against political pressure.

  • “To see Zamir sitting in front of a hostile cabinet and speaking his truth… that was a moment of realizing that there still is a strong backbone in this country.” (26:07, Yossi)

• He expresses optimism about the next generation of opposition leadership as a source of future renewal.

• Donniel finds hope in honest reckoning:

  • “I don’t mind confronting dark times… Only if we see the darkness to which we're descending could we have an honest discussion about who we want to be.” (29:05, Donniel)
  • Hopes increased dissent, motivated by not only hostages but humanitarian and military concerns, will trigger the war’s end or lead to national introspection.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 01:32 | Donniel | “Part of my experience of this podcast… is not just talking with you these last years, but it’s also talking to my mother and with my mother and sharing and talking about the Jewish people and Israel and the future.” | | 05:34 | Zamir (via Yossi) | “If you're looking for a yes man, find someone else.” | | 10:26 | Donniel | “Gaza City is almost this purposeless act with horrific consequences.” | | 13:56 | Donniel | “The war will never end.” (If the goal is total disarmament) | | 17:10 | Donniel | “By May… Hamas as a highly functioning military terrorist organization, had really been defeated.” | | 21:44 | Yossi | “Netanyahu… has a more proven ability to sabotage his own extraordinary achievements… Gaza City, for me, is going to be… the crowning failure of his 18 years in power.” | | 23:08 | Donniel | “But the problem with Gaza City is that this is not an existential dimension of the war… So you're killing the hostages, not in order to achieve an existential victory.” | | 26:07 | Yossi | “To see Zamir sitting in front of a hostile cabinet and speaking his truth… that was a moment of realizing that there still is a strong backbone in this country.” | | 29:05 | Donniel | “I don’t mind confronting dark times… only if we see the darkness to which we're descending could we have an honest discussion about who we want to be.” |

Important Timestamps

• 00:11 — Framing the episode, “this is the moment of Gaza City.”
• 01:32 — Donniel’s personal reflection on his late mother and the podcast.
• 04:54 — Context of the Gaza City operation and debate in Israeli society.
• 05:34 — IDF Chief of Staff Zamir’s dramatic warning to cabinet.
• 07:53 — Breakdown of Zamir’s four-point opposition.
• 10:26 — Donniel characterizes the operation as “purposeless.”
• 12:21 — Yossi weighs the moral imperatives and consequences.
• 13:56 — Donniel on Israel’s military doctrine, drawing on past wars for perspective.
• 17:10 — Donniel explains his evolving view that the war’s justification lapsed in May 2024.
• 18:54 — Yossi recalls Israeli traumas (Yom Kippur War, Lebanon 1982) as cautions.
• 21:44 — Netanyahu’s leadership scrutinized.
• 23:08 — Donniel on the loss of existential justification.
• 26:07 — Yossi’s hope in the integrity of military leadership and opposition.
• 29:05 — Donniel’s belief that openly confronting darkness is the only way forward.

Conclusion

The “Gaza City” episode of For Heaven’s Sake captures Israel at a critical crossroads—militarily, morally, and socially. Through a candid, sometimes mournful conversation, Donniel and Yossi wrestle with the erosion of the war’s justification, the dangers of continued escalation, and the potentially shattering consequences for both Israelis and Gazans. Yet, they find glimmers of hope in the integrity and backbone of Israel’s military and political opposition, and in the honest reckoning that accompanies hard times.

Listeners are invited to grapple deeply with the ethical complexity of wartime decisions and the pressing need for both accountability and compassion as the conflict enters a perilous new phase.