Podcast Summary: For Heaven's Sake – Episode: "Gaza: The End?"

Release Date: July 2, 2025

Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi

Introduction and Context

In the episode titled "Gaza: The End?", hosts Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi delve into the evolving political and military landscape surrounding the Gaza conflict. As Israel marks Day 634 of the ongoing war, the conversation centers on the potential end of the conflict, the fate of Israeli hostages, and the significant shifts in Israeli politics influenced by the new Netanyahu government and external figures like Donald Trump.

Israeli Political Landscape

Donniel opens the discussion by characterizing the recent changes in Israeli politics, particularly highlighting the transformation of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government dynamics.

Donniel Hartman [00:46]: "I would characterize it as the new Netanyahu government. Netanyahu, throughout his career, he doesn't live in the ideological right wing. He lives in the center right with a high emphasis on issues of security."

Yossi counters by emphasizing that the current Netanyahu differs from his historical centrist-right persona, suggesting a departure towards more hardline policies influenced by his coalition partners.

Yossi Klein Halevi [02:05]: "That was the old Netanyahu, you really forget."

The hosts discuss how Netanyahu historically balanced various political factions to maintain his leadership, but recent developments indicate a shift towards a right-dominated coalition.

Impact of Donald Trump on Israeli Politics

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Donald Trump's unexpected and substantial influence on Israeli politics. Donniel explains that Trump has moved from an external figure to a central player in Israeli political discourse, effectively acting as a left-wing counterbalance to hardline ministers like Smotrich and Ben Gvir.

Donniel Hartman [03:24]: "Netanyahu is a new coalition partner. The only difference is this person doesn't sit in the government factually, but is governing this country, and that is Donald Trump."

Yossi expresses astonishment at the level of Trump’s involvement, noting his influence over crucial decisions such as Netanyahu's trial and the potential to end the conflict in Gaza.

Yossi Klein Halevi [05:46]: "What is the deal? [...] Will they bring the government down?"

The interplay between Netanyahu and Trump introduces a new dynamic where Trump has the capacity to influence or even dismantle the existing government structure, thereby holding unprecedented power in shaping Israel's future policies.

The Gaza Conflict and Prospects for Resolution

As the war approaches two years, the hosts explore the possibility of its conclusion and the return of Israeli hostages. Donniel posits that Netanyahu's current coalition is pushing for an end to the war and the hostages' release, signaling a potential shift from a pursuit of complete military victory to a more pragmatic approach.

Donniel Hartman [04:55]: "The war is coming to an end. How do we frame this, assuming that we at all have even a vote as Israelis on this issue?"

Yossi adds that Netanyahu's approach has been compromised by his reliance on external figures like Trump, which in turn affects the government's stability and policy decisions.

Yossi Klein Halevi [10:43]: "There's also an exhaustion in the army. There's an exhaustion in Israeli society. There's a convergence of reasons for why the public is ready to wind the war down."

The conversation highlights the tension between achieving military objectives and the growing domestic and international pressures to end the conflict, especially regarding civilian casualties and the ethical implications of the prolonged war.

Moral Dilemmas in the Conflict

A core theme of the episode is the moral quandary Israel faces in its military campaign against Gaza. Yossi articulates the acute moral dilemmas, balancing the necessity to combat Hamas without committing war crimes or alienating international support.

Yossi Klein Halevi [06:16]: "There's a meta dilemma here, a moral. [...] There's a growing clash of two moral imperatives here. And that's where I feel we're stuck."

Donniel echoes these concerns, expressing fear that the moral complexities are being used to suppress necessary critical conversations about the war's execution and its ethical ramifications.

Donniel Hartman [09:21]: "We're stuck. I appreciate what you're saying, and I share that dilemma, but I feel, you know what I'm frightened of, that we're using that dilemma right now to quiet some of the serious conversations that we need to have."

The hosts debate the fine line between strategic necessities and moral responsibilities, questioning whether Israel can sustain its military operations without compromising its ethical standing.

The Psychological and Sociological Impact on Israeli Society

The prolonged conflict has left deep psychological scars on Israeli society. Yossi reflects on the enduring trauma stemming from the October 7th attacks, highlighting feelings of helplessness and a loss of control despite Israel's historical prowess in rescue operations.

Yossi Klein Halevi [16:05]: "The trauma, the lingering trauma is that we are a society that prided itself on being able to protect not only Israeli citizens, Jews around the world. [...] We couldn't save 1200 of our fellow citizens within the sovereign borders of the state of Israel. That's a trauma."

Donniel connects this trauma to the current stalemate, where the inability to decisively end the war exacerbates feelings of chaos and helplessness within the population.

Donniel Hartman [10:46]: "Which maddens us, because, you know, you could say, I have a dilemma and I have a struggle, and you. And try to do the best you can."

The discussion underscores the societal toll of the conflict, where continuous fighting and unresolved hostilities contribute to a collective sense of despair and fatigue.

Future Implications for Zionism and Israeli Society

The hosts explore the broader implications of the Gaza conflict on Zionism and Israel's national identity. Donniel compares the internal regulation provided by Jewish law to Zionism's focus on the public sphere, suggesting that the ongoing war challenges this balance.

Donniel Hartman [16:05]: "Judaism focused on the private domain and created a sense of order. [...] But the whole revolution of Zionism is to say to you that we're responsible for the public sphere."

Yossi adds that resolving the Gaza situation requires addressing the fundamental ideological issues underpinning Palestinian society in Gaza, which he describes as an "ideological project" centered on impermanence and the refusal to accept Gaza as a permanent homeland.

Yossi Klein Halevi [24:01]: "Gaza has to stop being one big refugee camp. And that's very different from the west bank where Palestinians live."

Donniel anticipates the challenges Israel will face post-conflict, including rebuilding Gaza and dealing with the persistent presence of Hamas, which complicates the prospect of achieving a definitive victory.

Donniel Hartman [25:43]: "There is no system to ensure that they don't have their weapons when we sign the deal. Hamas is not going to sign a deal saying we give up all of our power and disappear and dissipate and you can have your hostages."

The conversation points to a future filled with uncertainty, where political processes will take precedence over military solutions, potentially reshaping Zionist strategies and Israeli societal norms.

Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Donniel and Yossi acknowledge the complexities and uncertainties lying ahead for Israel. They emphasize that the end of the Gaza conflict may mark the beginning of a new, tumultuous phase characterized by political negotiations, societal healing, and the ongoing struggle to reconcile military success with moral integrity.

Donniel Hartman [30:38]: "I want to stop counting days. I want the hostages home. I want to go back to. For heaven's sake. Without the subtitle Israel at War."

Yossi adds a forward-looking perspective, hinting at future discussions on the ramifications of Donald Trump's involvement and the emerging concerns over Israel's sovereignty.

Yossi Klein Halevi [29:02]: "I'll mention it briefly as something that you might want to talk about next week, which is the dark side of Papa Donald embracing us and intervening in our affairs."

The episode concludes with a sense of anticipation for the next chapter in Israel's ongoing narrative, highlighting the delicate balance between resolving the immediate conflict and addressing the deeper, structural challenges facing the nation.

Notable Quotes

• Donniel Hartman [00:46]:

  "I would characterize it as the new Netanyahu government. Netanyahu, throughout his career, he doesn't live in the ideological right wing. He lives in the center right with a high emphasis on issues of security."

• Yossi Klein Halevi [06:16]:

  "There's a meta dilemma here, a moral. [...] There's a growing clash of two moral imperatives here. And that's where I feel we're stuck."

• Yossi Klein Halevi [16:05]:

  "The trauma, the lingering trauma is that we are a society that prided itself on being able to protect not only Israeli citizens, Jews around the world. [...] We couldn't save 1200 of our fellow citizens within the sovereign borders of the state of Israel. That's a trauma."

• Donniel Hartman [30:38]:

  "I want to stop counting days. I want the hostages home. I want to go back to. For heaven's sake. Without the subtitle Israel at War."

This episode of "For Heaven's Sake" offers a profound exploration of the intricate web of political, moral, and societal factors influencing Israel's current predicament. By intertwining personal insights with broader geopolitical analysis, Donniel and Yossi provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and uncertainties that lie ahead for Israel and its people.