For Heaven’s Sake: Iran – When the Story Changes

Podcast: For Heaven’s Sake, Shalom Hartman Institute
Hosts: Donniel Hartman & Yossi Klein Halevi
Airdate: January 13, 2026

Episode Overview

In this special episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi grapple with a rapidly shifting narrative around Iran, regime change, and the implications for Israel and the Jewish world. Against the backdrop of recent mass protests and possible regime instability in Iran, the hosts dissect how foundational assumptions—the “conceptia”—about Iran’s strength, intentions, and the West’s ability to manage it are being overturned. They reflect candidly on Israeli and Diaspora perspectives, the moral and practical uses of power, the loneliness of dissenting voices, and the existential consequences for Israel as the front line in this unfolding story.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Old "Conceptia" of Iran

(00:10, 06:52, 09:22)

• Definition & Historical Roots:
  The hosts relate the term “conceptia,” or entrenched worldview, to the mistaken certainties about Israel’s adversaries—both in the 1973 Yom Kippur War and with Hamas before October 7th, 2023.

  • Quote: “Conceptia has a very bad connotation in Israel… it has come to mean a wrong assumption.” — Yossi (06:52)

• Application to Iran:

  • Israel and much of the international community long assumed Iran’s regime was too strong to topple or even meaningfully resist; therefore, the only option was appeasement.
  • Particularly, the Obama administration’s approach—embodied in the JCPOA—was built on this conceptia: “That they're too strong. This is unstoppable. Their nuclear program, their regional ambitions. The only thing you can do is try to essentially bribe them… with bullies, there’s no halfway.” — Yossi (00:20)

• JCPOA & Its Flaws:

  • The 2015 nuclear deal’s sunset clause all but guaranteed eventual Iranian nuclear capability and, through sanctions relief, bankrolled Iran’s regional proxies instead of civilian infrastructure.
  • Quote: “None of this money went into civilian infrastructure… it went into Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis and the Assad regime and everything that this war that we've been fighting for the last two years has tried to undo.” — Yossi (09:50)

2. Reassessing the Nature of the Iranian Regime

(11:07, 14:03, 16:08)

• Underestimating Ideological Evil:
  Donniel notes a secular Israeli/American habit of believing all actors are ultimately rational and share Western priorities:

  • “Our notion was we could manage them… there's a core rational self interest that we could assume and on the basis of which we could function in our universe.” — Donniel (11:07)

• The Religious Calculus:
  Yossi argues that secular frameworks missed that the Iranian regime is “deeply religious. I took their theology seriously… these guys are serious, they're true believers.” (14:03)

  • Religious devotion, including self-sacrifice and martyrdom, overrides mere self-interest.

• Holocaust Denial as a Red Flag:
  The regime’s investment in Holocaust denial and anti-Semitic propaganda, not only domestically but on the global stage, was a warning many ignored.

  • “A regime that promotes Holocaust denial on multiple levels of society, educationally, internationally—this is a regime that I felt I needed to take seriously.” — Yossi (16:08)

3. Why Has the West Been So Slow to Wake Up?

(17:11, 18:02, 20:29)

• Media & Policy Silence:
  Even while Israeli media declared Iran the top story, American and European outlets buried it, and progressives often remained silent—out of discomfort with embracing militarism or because Iran supports “the right side” in other conflicts.

  • Quote: “The silence of the progressive lambs is stunning. Stunning. It's virtually wall to wall silence.” — Yossi (21:04)
  • Media gaps highlighted: “It took [the BBC] 10 days before they actually put it on their site.” — Yossi (17:52)

• Liberal Dilemmas & the Power Question:

  • The Obama/restraint camp argued that any hard action would provoke war—a prediction Yossi admits was accurate; alternatives to negotiation were unpalatable.
  • Progressives see Iran as an adversary of Israel/US “genocide and colonialism”—thus are inclined to ignore Iran’s atrocities.

• Israel’s Moral Relationship to Power:
  Donniel reflects on how Israelis accept both the necessity and morality of using power—unlike Americans or Europeans, and even many progressive American Jews.

  • “We in Israel understand that power is not only necessary, it's also a moral force. That my right to live is a moral duty…” — Donniel (21:45)
  • Two models of Tikkun Olam: American Jews focus on doing good; Israelis on constraining evil.

4. The Israeli Psychological & Strategic Perspective

(29:57, 30:39, 33:04, 34:54)

• The Paradox of Victory and Vulnerability:

  • Israelis are simultaneously proud of operational successes (the “12 Day War”; deep strikes in Iran) and acutely aware of their vulnerabilities: “Are we really as powerful?”
  • Quote: “There's the story of our victory and there's the story of our vulnerability… they're almost two different stories, and each one has to be told.” — Donniel (35:19)

• Immediate Personal Stakes:

  • The abstract becomes the personal; preparations include ordering emergency supplies and anticipating missile attacks if the US strikes Iran.
  • Quote: “Sarah, my wife, ordered supplies. Because if Trump hits Iran, Iran hits us, we go back into the air raid shelters.” — Yossi (30:39)

5. The Need for Both Fighting Evil and Spreading Good

(28:54, 29:28, 29:57)

• While Israel’s war against Islamist evil is being vindicated, Donniel cautions that reclaiming the narrative also requires proof of moral means and constructive vision, not just successful use of force.

• Yossi agrees and calls for extra vigilance in ensuring Israel’s actions remain just: “When you are fighting evil in the name of good, you need to be doubly and truly triply certain that your means are as pure as they can be given the circumstances, and that you don't allow evil to penetrate your camp.” (29:28)

6. A Note of Gratitude & Final Reflections

(35:57 - End)

• Yossi closes with gratitude for long-standing partners in advocacy against Iranian nuclear ambitions: Michael Oren, AIPAC, the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, Iranian expat activists, and above all, the people of Iran.
• Quote: “Tremendous gratitude to the Iranian people and awe and reverence and prayers… When you light Shabbat candles… pray for the people of Iran because they are carrying the future of the Middle East and God be with them.” — Yossi (38:36)

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On failed concepts:
  “With bullies, there's no halfway.” — Yossi (00:20)

• On the Israeli sense of vulnerability:
  “We’re living in Ground zero. All the time.” — Yossi (32:02)

• On missed Western understanding:
  “A regime that promotes Holocaust denial… this is a regime that I felt I needed to take seriously.” — Yossi (16:08)

• On Israeli ambivalence:
  “There's the story of our victory and there's the story of our vulnerability… they're almost two different stories, and each one has to be told.” — Donniel (35:19)

Important Timestamps

• 00:20 – The inherited “conceptia” about Iran
• 09:22 – Explaining the JCPOA’s “sunset clause” and its consequences
• 14:03 – The failure to recognize the role of religious fervor and evil
• 16:08 – Iran’s Holocaust denial as a window into its nature
• 21:04 – Silence among Western progressives
• 22:25 – Judaic ambivalence about power
• 30:39 – The personal price: stocking shelters and daily anxieties
• 35:19 – Israeli duality: victory and perpetual threat
• 38:36 – Prayer for the Iranian people

Memorable Moments & Tone

The episode blends urgency, historical reflection, and deep personal feeling. Donniel’s warmth and humor (“Was that too vulgar?”—05:19) balance Yossi’s focused, unflinching parsing of political and moral complexity. Both hosts challenge each other and the audience to hold onto nuance, to update their worldviews as events shift, and to never lose sight of the human costs and obligations—whether of using power or longing for peace.

As Yossi closes: "Tremendous gratitude to the Iranian people and awe and reverence and prayers… pray for the people of Iran because they are carrying the future of the Middle East and God be with them.” (38:36)

For listeners seeking a sharp, honest, and deeply Jewish conversation about Iran’s changing reality and its reverberations for Israel and the world, this episode is essential.