Israel at War — A Nation that Dwells Alone

Summary

For Heaven's Sake: Episode Summary
Episode Title: Israel at War — A Nation that Dwells Alone
Release Date: May 28, 2025
Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Presented by: Ark Media and the Shalom Hartman Institute

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1. Introduction: The Reality of Day 600

In this poignant episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi confront the harrowing reality of Israel enduring 600 consecutive days of war and the ongoing hostage crisis. As Donniel states early on, “[...] it’s day 600, 600 days of war, 600 days of hostages” (00:01).

2. The Psychological and Societal Toll

Yossi reflects on the unprecedented duration of the conflict, noting, “[...] it’s the longest war we’ve fought by far since 1948” (00:44). He emphasizes that Israel is not structurally or psychologically prepared for an eternal war, highlighting the strain on the nation’s social fabric and collective morale.

3. "A Nation that Dwells Alone": Historical and Theological Foundations

The hosts delve into the biblical concept of machloket l’shem shemayim (“disagreeing for the sake of heaven”) and the characterization of Jews as “a nation that dwells alone” from the prophet Bilaam. Donniel explains, “This is a nation that walks alone... and it also shaped our psyche in which being alone was not perceived to be a terrible thing” (04:18). This theological identity has historically influenced Israel’s interactions with the world, fostering both resilience and vulnerability.

4. Shifting Global Perception and Increased Criticism

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the changing dynamics between Israel and its traditional allies. Donniel points out, “The ambassador of Israel to the EU said, you’ve exhausted the hostage story... people are looking at the bombing campaigns, at the children who are being killed” (04:18). This marks a departure from earlier stages of the conflict where global support was largely unwavering, indicating a growing international scrutiny of Israel's actions.

5. Personal Impacts and Societal Reflection

Yossi shares a deeply personal connection to the theme of aloneness, drawing parallels to the Jewish experience during the Shoah (Holocaust). He expresses, “[...] the Shoah was an excess of aloneness. [...] Zionism, the great promise of Zionism was not only to return the Jewish people to the land but also to the international community” (09:17). The prolonged conflict rekindles fears of isolation reminiscent of dark chapters in Jewish history.

6. Political Leadership and Responsibility

The conversation critically examines Prime Minister Netanyahu's role and rhetoric. Yossi asserts, “Criticism in this particular war... there is a growing inability to listen, to process the complexity of the situation” (14:05). Donniel further critiques the political narrative that fosters isolation, linking it to Netanyahu's political survival strategies.

7. The Role of Evangelical Support and Changing Alliances

Donniel discusses the crucial yet precarious support from the evangelical community led by figures like Donald Trump. He observes, “[...] President Trump is the antidote to our aloneness” (20:45), but also highlights the complexities and potential unreliability of this alliance, especially as Trump’s focus shifts towards economic deals over sustained political support.

8. Historical Parallels: Learning from the Past

Drawing comparisons to the post-Yom Kippur War era, Yossi and Donniel reflect on societal disillusionment and the dangers of internal criticism during wartime. Yossi notes, “In prior wars, we always allowed ourselves as a society to ask hard questions” (16:28), lamenting the current inability to engage in such introspection due to heightened tensions and fear.

9. Future Prospects and Points of Optimism

Despite the bleakness, the hosts find slivers of hope. Donniel mentions, “[...] I really do believe... that a temporary ceasefire to return 10 of the hostages for 60 or 70 days is imminent” (25:23). Additionally, Yossi expresses optimism that the increased international criticism might compel Israeli society to reassess its strategies and relationships, potentially restoring some global support.

10. The Path Forward: Embracing Criticism and Healing

Yossi emphasizes the necessity of embracing criticism from allies to prevent the nation from spiraling into extremism: “[...] Israeli society is going to listen more carefully, precisely because the criticism is coming from our friends” (38:55). Donniel concludes with a heartfelt appeal, underscoring the ongoing suffering and the urgent need for the war to end: “[...] 600 days of suffering that just has to come to an end” (39:02).

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Day 600 of War:
  Daniel Hartman: “it's going to be day 600, 600 days of war, 600 days of hostages” (00:01).

• Longest War Since 1948:
  Yossi Klein Halevi: “Who would have imagined, Daniel, that day 600... We’re not built for what’s now being called in Israel, an eternal war” (00:44).

• Israel's Isolation and Aloneness:
  Yossi Klein Halevi: “...Zionism, the great promise of Zionism was not only to return the Jewish people to the land but also to the international community” (09:17).

• Impact of Criticism:
  Yossi Klein Halevi: “Criticism in a time of war is never welcomed by any society, especially by Israelis” (14:05).

• Changing Allied Support:
  Daniel Hartman: “President Trump is the antidote to our aloneness... yet he wants to make a deal with Iran” (20:45).

• Historical Lessons:
  Yossi Klein Halevi: “...in today’s Israel that there would be a commission of inquiry” (17:07).

• Future Optimism:
  Yossi Klein Halevi: “Israeli society is going to listen more carefully, precisely because the criticism is coming from our friends” (38:55).

• Closing Appeal:
  Daniel Hartman: “600 days, Israeli families are still suffering. And this war... has to come to an end” (39:02).

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Conclusion

In this emotionally charged episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi offer a profound exploration of Israel's prolonged conflict, its historical and theological underpinnings, and the shifting landscape of international support. They poignantly highlight the psychological toll on Israeli society and underscore the urgent need for introspection and healing amidst relentless adversity. The conversation serves as both a lament for the present and a cautious hope for a reunified and resilient future.

Transcript

[Daniel Hartman]

Hi, friends, this is Daniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, Israel at war. And the day that I'm going to be mentioning now, it causes you to shake. Today's day 599, and it's going to land on your feeds. It's going to be day 600, 600 days of war, 600 days of hostages, before we even get into our theme. And I'll, I'll expand on it shortly. Yossi, any feelings about these 600 days?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Who would have imagined, Daniel, that day 600, first of all, that there would be a day 600 of the swarm. This is the longest war we've fought by far since 1948, and it's about to overtake the 1948 war. We're not built to wage this kind of war. We're not built psychologically, socially. We can't carry this war indefinitely. We're not built for what's now being called in Israel, an eternal war.

[Daniel Hartman]

By some. By some. That's actually a debated. Right.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

The IDF chief of staff said this will not be an eternal war.

[Daniel Hartman]

It can't be. It was the, it was, it was Zini, the potential appointee of the security.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Service of the Shin Bet. Yeah, who, who says, yeah, we're in an eternal war? And I think he reflects Netanyahu's agenda. And for whatever reason, Netanyahu sees an open ended war, which may or may not be endless, as essential for the country's military success, his own political success. But really, first of all, we couldn't have imagined day 600, and we certainly couldn't have imagined that day 600 would look like this. The sense of chaos, of deepening divisiveness, demoralization, ruin in Gaza, suffering of families.

[Daniel Hartman]

Suffering of hostages and hostage families, that.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Hostages would still be there, that the government would continued to effectively turn its back on the hostage families, not extending the most basic human empathy, let alone Jewish or Israeli solidarity. And so it's turning into, it's a.

[Daniel Hartman]

Very strange place and it's surreal. I could just say, and I know you're going to say, daniil, it's the same for me, but it doesn't matter. You don't have to, even though you might feel it, but without our conversation together, I don't think I could have got through these 600 days. I think I might have just had to disconnect. You know, there's more and more people who, like, they don't watch the news anymore. I Follow news sites three hours a day. It's exhausting. It's.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I've been detaching. I've been detaching from.

[Daniel Hartman]

You've been. You can't. And I'm able to do it.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

How can you do. How can you do three hours a day of news?

[Daniel Hartman]

I don't know. Then I talk to you once a week. It just sort of helps. It's like a processing. Because these 600 days, I'm not built for that, not for this level of intensity. And it's not 600 days of a continuum. It's 600 individual days in which each day is this brand new reality.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I'll tell you one thing, Daniil, what our conversations have done for me is that it's kept me from being lazy, from thinking lazily. I have to be alert at least once a week.

[Daniel Hartman]

I hope you also prepare a little bit.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, I think of my week as a kind of a prelude to this moment when you and I speak to tens of thousands of people. When do you and I ever have such an audience? And so there's a sense of tremendous responsibility and gratitude that I feel to you and to our audience.

[Daniel Hartman]

I want to transition from this really deeply troubling reality to. To our theme for today that we chose together the title A Nation that Dwells Alone. Let me explain both the category and why we want to talk about it today. The biblical Moabite prophet Bilaam was asked by the King Balak to curse the Jewish people. And he says, I can't curse a people whom God does not curse. I'm just a channel. And he turns out to be a very pious man. And in a semi, you know, backup plan, he looks at the Jewish people and he says one of the things he says, this is a nation that dwells alone. They're not counted amongst the nations of the world. And our tradition for most of its history couldn't figure out or was struggling with or gave opposite explanations. Was this a curse or is this our identity? Is that who we are? And in many ways it was both. It has a deep theological meaning to it that we are a nation that doesn't look to the left or to the right to decide what it is that we should do. We are a nation, especially in the biblical period, in a world of idolatry. We're a nation that walks alone. And it also shaped our psyche in which being alone was not perceived to be a terrible thing. We got used to it. It also had strong historical consequences in an anti Semitic world, in a world in which loving Jews wasn't the norm. A nation that dwells alone became also our reality. So theology, identity and reality all merged together in this category and created both an embracing of it, an ambivalence of it, a fear of it, and also it sometimes becomes your old friend. This is the way the world has always been. And the reason why we picked this is not because of the October 8th and henceforth delegitimization campaign against Israel, but it's because we have sensed. And if you follow the Israeli newspapers, starting with President Trump's visit to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, but in an ever increasing level over the last number of days. The New York Times had an article yesterday about this, but they're basically summing what Israeli newspapers for the first time have begun to talk about recognizing that this stage of the war is making us a nation that dwells apart, is doing something is changing. And while for the first stage, anybody who didn't recognize the legitimacy of our war was an anti Semite. And we wanted to show you, let me show you what happened. Let me show you hostage pictures. Let me show you Nova pictures. Let me understand us. And we tried to overcome that aloneness. And by and large, much of the world understood, except for the anti Semites. But the anti Semites, they're never going to join us. But something is shifting now. The level of criticism around the world is shifting. The ambassador of Israel to the EU said, you've exhausted the hostage story. It's not creating sympathy anymore. And people are looking at the bombing campaigns, at the children who are being killed, at the havoc being brought upon Gaza. I don't want to go into last week's conversation, but the humanitarian issues, they're looking at us and real allies. Germany. There's a major front page story today, lead story about Germany, our most trusted ally since World War II, who always stands with us. Their chancellor is be saying, I can't justify your bombings right now. England, Canada, France. So it's. And we'll get to America, too. And the sense that we're just not a priority anymore. There's an aloneness that we're facing that is actually shaking Israeli society. And I wanted us to talk about that, understand it, where is it coming from and also what it means and is there anything that we could do to overcome it. But if you want to understand Israel right now, it's a country dealing with an experience of aloneness on a very, very deep level, one that we haven't been accustomed to in a very long time. So yossi how do you take this new reality, this aloneness?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Very, very personally, in fact, in the most intimate way possible. Because my deepest fear growing up with the Shoah was a return of Jewish isolation. The Shoah was an excess of aloneness. We were alone for 12 long years. The Shoah unfolded in a very gradual and public way, beginning in 1933 with dispossession and exclusion from society and then gradually escalating to extermination. And so my generation, our generation grew up with the sense that aloneness had become literally untenable for the Jewish people. And Zionism, the great promise of Zionism was not only to return the Jewish people to the land, but also to the international community. And our generation. Daniil was one of the most privileged in Jewish history, and I mean privileged in the most positive sense of the word. We grew up with a Jewish state that was widely respected. American Jewry was the most beloved minority. And we gradually began to heal from this condition of radical aloneness. I felt it in myself when I say that this is personal. It couldn't possibly be more deeply connected to my sense of being a Jew in the world. And now, for whatever reason, we find ourselves increasingly back in the nightmare of Jewish history. And that nightmare was ghettoization. And increasingly Israel feels like there are invisible ghetto walls around us. And this condition is an assault on everything that I saw as the Jewish victory over the Shoah, our post Holocaust achievement as a people. This is bringing us back to before the creation of the state, which was supposed to heal us from this condition.

[Daniel Hartman]

You know, there's so many things that healed us. There was our power, which everybody embraced, and our success. But as I was hearing you talk, do you know what was coming to my mind all the time? Startup Nation.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Daniel Hartman]

It was like, I know there was. We were beloved way beforehand, but then in the 70s it was aloneness again. And it was all but Startup Nation, both in its core, absolutely is only possible if we're not alone. But it also puts us in a place where the world wants to. They want to trade with us.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Even the Arab world was knocking on.

[Daniel Hartman]

Our doors, just like, you know, our colleagues Sanur and Singer. They so articulated as such a critical aspect of Israeli creativity and genius. But it was the end of our aloneness. We were playing with the world on a new level. There's so many things that you just said that I cherish. The categories of excessive aloneness, the ghettoization of our people. Looking at the Holocaust wasn't just the destruction. It was nobody cared saving us Just didn't matter. So what do you feel, Yossi? How does this assault on you? Like, what is it gonna do before we talk about how you overcome it? But like, what does that mean for Israeli society? Because it's there now and it's not the same as anti Semitism. No, it's not the same as October 8th, you know, attacks on colon, as Israel is the colon, like a plague on all the anti Semites houses. I don't give a crap, I care. But like, this is not Holocaust aloneness. This is not anti Semitic aloneness. It's a different aloneness. What does it do to you?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What it does to me personally is force me to pay attention to the criticism, because it's coming from friends this time it's not coming from those who want to turn us into criminals. These are people, many of them, who are rooting for us, who want the Jewish people to make it, who want us to be the best Jewish people we can be, who admire us. And it increases my feelings of rage toward this government, which is not totally responsible for this situation. I think it's more complicated than that, but isn't paying attention, isn't treating this as a serious crisis to deal with.

[Daniel Hartman]

So now what will it do to Israeli society? Because they, unlike you, aren't wired. We don't have a culture of listening to criticism. We want to be beloved, but we don't want any criticism. So what in your. What is it going to do to Israeli society?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Criticism in a time of war is never welcomed by any society, especially by Israelis. Criticism in this particular war, when we feel that we're being attacked by a lynch mob, we're being accused of committing crimes that we know we haven't committed, committed. There is a growing inability to listen, to process the complexity of the situation that we're in. Look again. I'll come back to myself. When the Eurovision happened a couple of weeks ago and everyone in Israel was worried we were going to come in.

[Daniel Hartman]

Who's going to vote for us?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, we're going to come in last place and it's going to be a national disgrace. Turns out we came in second place and we were in first place in the popular vote. And I could just hear this in Europe, in Europe. And I could just hear this enormous sense of relief among Israelis. You know, they hate us, they hate us not. And I have to admit, Danille, I felt it involuntarily and then I looked at myself. Really, the Eurovision, that's what's getting you all excited and you're Feeling this relief about the place of the Jewish people in the world because of this Eurovision. So. But it's a measure of the desperation that Israelis feel. And this can play out in various ways. One is, and of course the best scenario is that it'll be a wake up call. It'll force us to begin to ask ourselves some difficult questions about certain aspects of the war. And in every previous war, we always allowed ourselves as a society to ask hard questions. This is our most brutal war. And I believe, and listeners know this, I have believed all along, this is one of our most necessary wars. But still, there are really urgent questions that we as a society need to ask.

[Daniel Hartman]

You know, like in prior wars, you'll see, we always said, we'll talk about these at the end of the war. That was a week later. Like, that's in two weeks.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's like here we had commissions of inquiry, journals here at 600.

[Daniel Hartman]

When you tell people, in an endless war, I'm only willing to talk at the end of the war, right? This is. There's something structurally flawed and something very bad that might happen from this, because we're going to turn this nation that dwells alone into. We'll see it as our blessing, you know, and it's. Maybe self interest will overcome it, but it's not going to do good for Israeli society.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

When you were talking about previous wars, think for a moment about 1982, the first Lebanon war. The Sabran Shatila massacre happens in two Palestinian refugee camps. Hundreds of Palestinians are massacred by Christian Lebanese forces under our vague command. Nevertheless, Menachem Begin, the right wing Prime Minister, the Likud Prime Minister was forced, including by people within his own party, to create a commission of inquiry to look into Sabran Shatila. And the Israeli Defense Minister was forced to resign. While the war is going on, it's inconceivable in today's Israel that there would be a commission of inquiry. Even if, God forbid, something of that scale happened in this war, it would be inconceivable.

[Daniel Hartman]

Right. In many ways, this criticism, this aloneness serves the Netanyahu narrative.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Oh, absolutely.

[Daniel Hartman]

Even though it's happening under his watch. And I believe, and I'll get into that in a moment, he has a lot of responsibility for it. You know, he's talking, this is his language. And so what do you want? They always, They've hated us. They'll always hate us. This hunkering down. I also believe that unfortunately, it could have devastating consequences. But I wanted to do a play if I Could you had this line before that Zionism was supposed to be the antidote to Jewish aloneness. Part of what Israel has been experiencing over the last number of months is the fantasy that Donald Trump is the antidote to our aloneness. And like, we're safe now. And we're safe for two reasons. We're safe A, because a major source of aloneness is when people morally criticize us and they don't understand the complexity of the reality within which we're living. They don't get us. Or they have moral standards which aren't fair and are, and they would never apply them to themselves or from thousands of miles away, it's easy to moralize on somebody. And so we want our own. And in the past, we want our own commissions of inquiry, we want to do our own reflection. But the aloneness that comes from moral criticism is something that we thought we were free at last. Free at last. Oh, my Lord. Oh, my God, I'm free at last. Donald Trump will never leave us alone because we're not going to morally bother him, because it's not clear what moral categories he's committed to in the first place. And the second sense of President Trump as the antidote to our aloneness is the support from the evangelical community. And we know that Prime Minister Netanyahu has long felt, since the Iran negotiated deal with President Obama and the lack of Jewish critique of that deal, that a much better ally for Israel are the evangelicals. And evangelical support for Israel is not just built on that. We are a necessary stage in the ultimate redemption of the world. Evangelical ideology has been profoundly shaped and embraced, re read and embraced along with the Jewishness of Jesus. Genesis 12. 3. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed by you. Ambassador Huckabee. This is his verse. You know this is his verse. He's not waiting for the Rapture and he's not looking to. It's just very simple.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Most of the evangelicals who support Israel are actually more motivated by the book of Genesis than by revelation.

[Daniel Hartman]

By Revelation. And so. So here it is. You're like, here it is. And Donald Trump, his power base are the evangelicals. And so no moral criticism. 80 million people believing that we are God's most beloved on earth, that they will not be beloved unless they support us. Life is good. We're safe. Like, we're safe. And there's two things we didn't take into account. One is that President Trump, while he doesn't Criticize us morally. We don't interest him when it seems that his primary interest is to make money. I don't even want to be cynical for himself, but to make money for America. He wants to do a deal. And in that deal, it's not that Israel is failing. We're just not even important. It's like, how do you compete with.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Achievable, inconceivable to Israelis?

[Daniel Hartman]

We actually aren't the same center of the universe. You know, in old, classic Jewish maps, there were these two circles, and at the center was a small little circle, or these elliptical. And we were the center of the universe.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Danielle, that medieval map is what Sarah and I chose for our wedding invitation. So to give you an idea, really.

[Daniel Hartman]

Of where I come from, that's like, there's that. I'm gonna have to process that. That's for a wedding invitation. Okay. God bless you. But the. But okay, I'm going to leave that alone for now.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, I think that, you know, I.

[Daniel Hartman]

Would have sent you to therapy years ago, but at any event, if we.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Were getting married today, there would be the only map that would be in the wedding invitation was how to get.

[Daniel Hartman]

To where we're getting where the wedding is. Right. But okay, so. So part of that is that here it is, our financial irrelevancy, our lack of financial power serves to be a weakness far greater than the moral criticism and the other dimension that nobody could have imagined. And I know our friends in the United States are struggling with this is President Trump's remarkable ability to say and do anything and to have his base follow him wherever he goes. He defines reality. President Trump has overcome the power of Genesis 12. Now, I don't want to overstate it, because, you know, Donald Trump hasn't designated Israel as the enemy and is not going against us. And, you know, everybody is still waiting to see. But listen, right now, he's communicating. And Israeli newspapers are filled with this. They're reporting about what's going on in these conversations. He's telling Israel, I've had enough with the war. We have to finish this. He's the one who's telling us you need humanitarian aid. He and Witkoff aren't taking Netanyahu's. They're not drinking his Kool Aid. They are tired with an Israel that is only using war as a tool for politics because it's not serving his agenda, you know, and he wants to make a deal with Iran. He's connected to the isolationist wing in the Republican Party, which is far more powerful than the evangelical wing, which says do whatever's good for Israel, military option is more or less off with Iran. It stopped really quickly with the Houthis. And we're still suffering from this. You know, it's like, become a daily occurrence in Israel. Okay, oh, the bomb's coming. Go down. It's like you walk, you have your minute and a half, and you go. It's like this. It's this bizarre reality.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's a ritual.

[Daniel Hartman]

It's a ritual. And all of a sudden, we are alone because the one who we counted on is not there. And as a result, all the other criticisms, when it comes from Britain and Germany and all of it just in Canada and France, it just weighs on us because we're so much more vulnerable. And we're talking about it. We're actually talking about their criticism of us is now in almost every newspaper in Israel. We're talking about their criticism. We're still deflecting it, but we're talking about it because there's a new reality that we have to adjust to right now.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So, Daniil, what worries you? What are the consequences of this new aloneness on Israeli society that worries you?

[Daniel Hartman]

I've always believed that Zionism overcomes our aloneness not simply by making us a nation like all other nations, but that a tool for overcoming or for our relationship to the world is really based on a shared liberal, Jewish, Christian narrative of the type of world we're supposed to live in and the way we're supposed to interact with each other, both as individuals and internationally. That the biblical ethos of the prophets and the notion of all human beings being created in the image of God, and a Jewish society that strives to be a light, really strives in the midst of very difficult moments, and who sometimes is going to fail, and we will. And those failures will be weaponized by the anti Semites, but they're not weaponized by our friends. And the bottom line is that they stayed with us overall. They really have. And what frightens me is that I don't want to say it's irreparable, but that we're moving in opposite directions. And it both will have profound strategic consequences for the state of Israel. Because I don't believe we can be a nation that dwells apart, but it will also have profound psychological impact on Israeli society as we are pushed into positions by a world that has the power over us to do things that might be dangerous for us or that certainly we're not psychologically ready to do. Like, you know, okay, we now know, France and the Palestinian Authority in June are going to be declaring the unilateral formation of a Palestinian state. And while I want a Palestinian state, I know that in Israeli minds they can't even think about this category. They can't even think about the term. They don't even know what we're talking about.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, even the two of us who support, in principle, who support a Palestinian state are, I don't think you and I know certainly I would not want to see a Palestinian state happening anytime soon. No one is ready for it, including the Palestinians, especially Palestinian society, and certainly not a Palestinian state imposed by the international community. I'm not as frightened as dysfunctional and.

[Daniel Hartman]

That it will be, but I'm not as frightened about it as you. And somewhere along the line, I have to tell you, after so many years of trying to protect us and getting worse and worse, I today am open to new possibilities. At least when I look at the other alternatives, I'm not that impressed about them. And knowing, like as one of my colleagues said, you could use the word state, but there's lots of types of states. There's militarized states, there's demilitarized states, there's partial states, there's states in which the international community is involved to various degrees. So I'm not as adverse to try.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Okay, yes, I think that's a very important caveat and I appreciate that.

[Daniel Hartman]

Thank you. And the other thing that frightens me is that we're going to give up on our mission and the Smotriches and the Benvirs are going to be celebrating. Just yesterday, Smotrich declares that we shouldn't be frightened of the term occupation. And yes, we are going to occupy and resettle Gaza. Now in prior years you'd have a prime minister who would talk, you'd have somebody in the cabinet who would say those type of statements aren't helpful. You know, you'd have something, you know, you. Silence, Silence. So this aloneness, my biggest fear, it is also going to create a Jewish political philosophy which just gives up on any of the larger liberal values because they're saying it's not going to help anyway. Look at them. They're criticizing us in the middle of our war. So it becomes this self fulfilling journey which at the end I think is not even possible for Israel to be alone. But the strategic dangers and consequences until Israeli society wakes up not to speak up. Jewish peoplehood and their relationship with the world.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

That's what frightens me the most too is the meeting point between Israeli despair in the world and this deep Jewish theology that sees aloneness as not just our natural condition, but our divinely inspired condition. And when you combine that with this volatile condition, political and military situations, it's potentially very dangerous. The greatest ally for the Israeli far right is an Israeli sense of isolation. And that's something that worries me about the criticism. And I wish that our critics would just keep in mind the potential consequences. And that's not to say that the critics should be stifled, especially when it's coming from friends. But they also need to understand that the criticism isn't happening in a void. There are psychological.

[Daniel Hartman]

I know, but that's very hard.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I know you're right, but it's something to raise.

[Daniel Hartman]

I know that. It's like saying to them, you have to understand. It's like, I know there's children being killed in Gaza, and I know you don't like what we're doing and all the bombing and et cetera, and all the destruction, but realize that we are in a psychologically vulnerable position. A parent. A parent, a kid, a friend. But in the Internet, like, say, to Germany, you know, like, please, we've ran.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

The course, you know, so you're right. And what makes this emotionally so complicated for Israelis and for many Jews is that we're not the victims anymore. And I don't believe that we are the victimizers. I think we're behaving the way any country would in our place. But you cannot look at the ruins of Gaza and say, oh, the poor Jews. We're not the poor Jews. This is something that you've said many times on our podcast, and we're in this kind of pathological loop where much of the world sees us as victimizers and many Jews see themselves as victims. And I don't believe that either lens is a useful way of understanding our situation today. But I want to take a big step back, and when I was listening to you talking about the theological dynamics here, it occurred to me that there's a deep irony, maybe several ironies, in how Jews approach this question of chosenness, of isolation. The far right, the religious far right, Ben Grier and Smutterich. For them, it's axiomatic that we are the chosen people and we are morally superior to any other people. And there's almost a direct correlation with the more vociferously you proclaim Jewish uniqueness and Jewish chosenness, the more you're likely to behave like everyone else in the worst way. And on the other side of it, there's also an irony for secular Zionists, because what I hear you saying is that the only way we could ever really be accepted among the nations is if we don't behave like all the nations. We have to be a light, we have to be a little bit better, and then we can be accepted. Why can't we be accepted when as badly as everybody else? So there's a kind of a theological. It's more than an irony, it's an.

[Daniel Hartman]

Oddity of some sort.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's more than that. There's something really strange, even surreal, about the Jewish place in the world.

[Daniel Hartman]

Yossi, if you. First of all, thank you. About that. And I admit it's oddity, but I embrace it because I do embrace that part of my identity is to be a nation that dwells alone. And through that aloneness, I enter into a new relationship together with the world.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

But is that the precondition for our acceptance?

[Daniel Hartman]

Yeah, I hear you. I think it's a. A fair point. If you would allow me a moment of optimism. I'll give you the last word, unless you want to depress our audiences. But I want to. In the midst of this aloneness, there are two things that give me some optimism. The first is that, God willing, I really do believe, and the newspapers are all reporting this in Israel, that a temporary ceasefire to return 10 of the hostages for 60 or 70 days is imminent. So again, we already know that anybody who says something one week turns out to be a fool. Not even the next week, the next day. But part of this aloneness and part of Trump's lack of enamoredness with Israel is that he might be pushing us to a place where this war is going to come to an end. And one of the great advantages of Netanyahu is that he's unbelievably weak and cowardly. And I'll leave that aside. That's your fair enough. I don't know if he's fair enough or maybe he understands that Israel's strength is so connected to its relationship with Israel and basically with the United States. Excuse me. And basically, whatever Donald Trump wants, Netanyahu is going to say yes to what he wouldn't do with Biden. He was a big giver, as we say. He was like a real man when he came, or strong when it came to Democrats. Now, let's see. This aloneness might actually be the only way we get out of this. It's only when you see or when you actually are alone. We'll have all the bombs we need. But because you're now alone, you're going to be pushed into a position that you yourself aren't able to end. You actually are in an endless war cycle that maybe will come to an end. We'll know more next week. And the other thing that gives me most optimism is that precisely because of this new type of criticism, Israeli press, not just Haaretz, all the Israeli news sites are now reporting about humanitarian aid. They're reporting about the bombings in Gaza and their consequences. The horrific case of the, I believe it was nine children of one family from age 11 and down, children of doctors, all of who were killed. And the next day where 26 people were killed, not because we were going after Sinwar, but some vague notion that we were going after a significant. We didn't even say senior, we said a significant Hamas leader. These things are now being talked about in the press. The way the world is seeing us is being reported now. We might be reporting it out of a sense of worry of our survival, and people are all talking about the economic consequences, but the Voice of the World isn't being censored anymore, as it was censored for 590 days. And so these shifts are coming, and I hope we listen. And maybe by listening, we might be able to earn back some of our allies. Last thoughts.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yossi, you mentioned earlier in passing that we had been here before in the 1970s. And in some ways, this time that we're in now really does feel like the post Yom Kippur war. The deep disillusionment with the government, the sense we were subjected to a surprise attack where we're questioning our power, and the growing sense of aloneness which really marked the post Yom Kippur war period. The Arab oil boycott, dozens of countries breaking diplomatic relations with Israel, and then culminating with the Zionism racism resolution in 1975. But in one significant way, and here I agree with your optimism, Israeli society is different today than it in the 1970s. We're much less insular, we're much less provincial. Israelis are passionate travelers. We've become, to some extent, citizens of the world without losing our deep Israeli and Jewish rootedness. It's actually a very beautiful process that's happened here in the last few decades. And this is a moment of truth for our relationship with the rest of the world. And, and certainly there is much to criticize in terms of the double standard that Israel is subjected to, especially in international bodies. And yet it's also a moment of testing our maturation as a people. And maybe Israeli society is going to listen more carefully, precisely because the criticism is coming from our friends. And again, it's not to say whether the criticism is right or wrong, but certainly our friends have earned the right to critique us. And that's something Israelis are going to have to come to terms with.

[Daniel Hartman]

Yossi, it's a beautiful place to end. So, as always, it's a pleasure to be with you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It is a pleasure.

[Daniel Hartman]

And to our audience, when you hear this, on day 600, let's remember our children are still in the tunnels. Our family's still there. Our dead haven't come home. 600 days, Israeli families are still suffering. And this war, this war both in Israel and in Gaza, 600 days of suffering that just has to come to an end. May so be. Or Yossi, be well.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Thank you.