Israel at War — Independence Day: Gratitude and Hope

Summary

Podcast Summary: For Heaven's Sake – "Israel at War — Independence Day: Gratitude and Hope"

Podcast Information:

• Title: For Heaven's Sake
• Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
• Episode: Israel at War — Independence Day: Gratitude and Hope
• Release Date: May 1, 2025
• Description: Presented by Ark Media and the Shalom Hartman Institute, this episode delves into the moral dimensions surrounding Israel’s Independence Day amidst ongoing conflict. Hosts Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi navigate themes of gratitude and hope, reflecting on personal and national challenges.

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Introduction: Celebrating Amidst Conflict

The episode opens with Daniil Hartman welcoming listeners and setting the stage for the discussion:

“Today, tonight, we're celebrating Israel's 77th Independence Day... we should talk about Independence Day as between gratitude and hope.” [00:00]

He emphasizes the importance of dedicating a day to setting aside challenges to reflect on Israel’s achievements and personal blessings. This year's Independence Day holds particular significance as it coincides closely with Memorial Day, amplifying the emotional complexity of the celebrations.

Expressions of Gratitude

Personal Gratitude

Daniil shares a heartwarming personal milestone:

“A few hours ago, my eldest daughter, Michal gave birth to her fourth child... little beautiful baby girl.” [01:25]

This joyous event underscores a sense of continuity and hope for future generations despite the prevailing turmoil.

Gratitude for the Younger Generation’s Heroism

Yossi Klein Halevi highlights the exceptional bravery exhibited by Israel’s youth:

“The Generation which until October 7th, we disparagingly called the TikTok generation... we've seen a generation this committed, this powerful in a long time.” [05:55]

He praises the younger generation’s readiness to defend the nation, noting their resilience in what he calls "Israel's most thankless war." Their active participation and sacrifices are viewed as a testament to their unwavering commitment to Israel’s future.

Gratitude Towards Government and Military Response

Daniil acknowledges the complex emotions surrounding the government and security forces:

“While it's true in a normal country they would all have put their keys on the desk and resigned... they are responsible to give Israel a response to October 7.” [11:17]

He expresses gratitude for the government's and military's efforts to rebuild security and reclaim national identity despite initial failures and ongoing challenges.

Points of Disagreement: The Limits of Gratitude

A significant portion of the conversation delves into a disagreement between Daniil and Yossi regarding the extent to which gratitude should be extended towards the government and security establishments responsible for initial failures:

Daniil: “...I feel gratitude even to Netanyahu. I can't stand him. I feel gratitude because he took responsibility...” [15:05]

Yossi: “No, Netanyahu did not stop. Did not stop dividing us, sowing hatred... expressing gratitude is impossible.” [18:04]

This exchange highlights a fundamental tension between recognizing efforts to rectify past mistakes and holding leadership accountable for ongoing issues. While Daniil advocates for a nuanced gratitude that acknowledges both failures and subsequent efforts, Yossi remains skeptical, emphasizing continued divisions and unresolved grievances.

Expressions of Hope

Successful Military Counterattacks and Security Reaffirmation

Yossi shares a more optimistic outlook based on recent military successes:

“We have effectively neutralized the Iranian arc along our borders... we've changed the security balance in the Middle East.” [20:03]

He believes these actions have reaffirmed Israel’s permanence and military deterrence, providing a foundation for future security and stability.

Emergence of a Healing Majority in Society

Yossi points to societal shifts that foster hope:

“A healing majority in Israel, that 83% demand a commission of inquiry into the failure of the war...” [21:48]

He observes a growing consensus favoring healing and accountability over division, indicating a resilient and united public sentiment striving for national recovery and improved governance.

Hope in Government’s Actions and Institutional Stability

Daniil outlines specific developments that bolster his hope:

1. Responsible Leadership: Appointment of a “profoundly responsible, apolitical chief of staff.”
2. Judicial Reforms: Passage of reforms that maintain checks and balances without undermining democratic principles.
3. Political Restraint: The government’s decision to rescind the firing of Ronen Barr, head of the Shin Bet, averting a constitutional crisis.
4. Attorney General’s Agreement: Ensuring the politicization of the Ministry of Homeland Security ceases.

“The government is taking a step back when necessary... they are avoiding complete destruction by the next election.” [23:41]

These actions demonstrate a capacity for self-correction and adherence to institutional integrity, reinforcing trust in democratic processes and governance.

Concluding Reflections: Balancing Gratitude and Realism

Daniil wraps up the conversation by emphasizing the continual presence of gratitude and hope despite ongoing hardships:

“The secret of Jewish history is that we never let reality destroy us and get rid of our sense of hope.” [31:09]

He encourages listeners to partake in an exercise of reflecting on what they are grateful for and what gives them hope, framing it as a necessary tikkun (repair).

Yossi concurs on the importance of sustaining hope, even amid intense personal and national suffering, and reinforces the dual commandment of celebrating joyfully while acknowledging pain:

“You must celebrate. You must, during your holidays, not only celebrate exactly. You have to be happy, joyful.” [30:43]

Key Takeaways

• Duality of Emotion: Independence Day serves as a focal point for balancing gratitude amidst ongoing conflict and loss.
• Youth Empowerment: The bravery and commitment of Israel’s younger generation are pivotal in navigating the current crisis.
• Government Accountability: While there is recognition of efforts to mend past failures, substantial disagreements persist regarding the extent and sincerity of such efforts.
• Societal Resilience: Emerging consensus around healing and accountability fosters a hopeful outlook for Israel’s future.
• Institutional Integrity: Recent governmental and institutional actions provide a foundation for sustained democratic resilience and stability.

Notable Quotes

1. Daniil Hartman on Personal Gratitude:

   “A few hours ago, my eldest daughter, Michal gave birth to her fourth child... little beautiful baby girl.” [01:25]

2. Yossi Klein Halevi on Youth Heroism:

   “We've seen a generation this committed, this powerful in a long time.” [05:55]

3. Daniil Hartman on Government Accountability:

   “I feel gratitude even to Netanyahu. I can't stand him. I feel gratitude because he took responsibility...” [15:05]

4. Yossi Klein Halevi on Societal Healing:

   “A healing majority in Israel, that 83% demand a commission of inquiry into the failure of the war...” [21:48]

5. Daniil Hartman on Jewish Resilience:

   “The secret of Jewish history is that we never let reality destroy us and get rid of our sense of hope.” [31:09]

6. Yossi Klein Halevi on the Necessity of Joy:

   “You must celebrate. You must, during your holidays, not only celebrate exactly. You have to be happy, joyful.” [30:43]

Conclusion

In this deeply reflective episode, Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi navigate the complexities of celebrating Israel’s Independence Day amid unprecedented challenges. Their dialogue underscores the tension between honoring past and present struggles while fostering a spirit of gratitude and hope for the future. The conversation encapsulates a microcosm of Israeli society’s broader struggle to reconcile sorrow with celebration, division with unity, and despair with enduring hope.

Transcript

[Daniil Hartman]

Hello, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, Israel at War. Today is Day 572, and today, tonight, we're celebrating Israel's 77th Independence Day. And as always, reality shapes us, shapes the issues that we pick. And we chose that today we should talk about Independence Day as between gratitude and hope. We picked it out of a personal desire to fulfill what both Yossi and Tal speak about, that we as Jews should be allowed one day, one day to leave the major challenges behind us and to try to see what are the gifts that we have and what is it that we could celebrate. And it's an important exercise. If Shabbos is the day, you know, six days you shall work, and on the seventh day shall be a day holy unto God, 364 days a year, you should analyze and kvetch. And on the 365th day, what are you thankful for? It has to be.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Daniil, first of all, before we get into the politics. No, no, no. Mazal Tov. Mazal Tov to you.

[Daniil Hartman]

Thank you. I was about to get you. You. You stole my. My dramatic moment. And before we get into the gratitude that we have for the country, I'm feeling tremendous gratitude today. A few hours ago, my eldest daughter, Michal gave birth to her fourth child. My seventh grandchild, little beautiful baby girl. Michal is great, other than the fact that she's bored and wants to go home. My little energy bunny over there. And the baby, peaceful, sweet. May they have many, many more days. May all of us have many more days of joy and happiness.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Amen. Amen.

[Daniil Hartman]

So for that, there's gratitude. And by the way, as we've spoken about, and Saul Singer and Dan Sonor wrote about it, you know, Israel, the amount of babies being born, it was every nurse, besides the wards being full, every nurse who's on the ward is coming in, is coming in with an expectant mother. So whatever it is, as difficult as things are, having children, deciding to have children is a sign that there's a future that you could see, a future that you could raise children into this future. And Israel is one of the most powerful economies and modern societies in the world, has the highest birth rate in the oecd. And so there's something. Something right is happening, and something special and full is happening in my family today. So for that, I'm full of gratitude. And so with this challenge, I turn to you, my friend, Yossi. And there's so much, you know, we always do this. But let's. Today is Shabbos. This is a Shabbos.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So, first of all, sending you and Michal and family, lots of love, big embrace and much joy. So, yeah, that's a wonderful place to begin. And I'm really hesitant to say what I'm about to say after that, but I feel that we need to frame today's conversation with the general mood in the country. And the truth is, Daniil, that the shift from Memorial Day for the fallen hostages, which comes literally the day before Independence Day, we're recording on Memorial Day now, is always a challenge for Israelis. There's something almost cruel in the absence of any space between Memorial Day and Independence Day. And yet that is borrowed from the traditional Jewish calendar, where we go from a fast day to a celebration on Purim, for example. And so the message of the Jewish calendar is this entwinement of sorrow and joy, of brokenness and hope. This year, it's even more difficult, first of all, because of the hostages. The hostages are not celebrating Independence Day. Their families are not celebrating Independence Day, and soldiers are dying, falling every week. And so when I woke up this morning and saw that there are fires raging on our Central Artery Road 1, connecting Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. And as a result of the fires, the torchlight ceremony for Independence Day is being canceled. Writers think in metaphors. We function in a world that's somewhere between reality and metaphor. And what a metaphor for this Independence Day, the central celebratory event of torch lighting is being canceled because the country's on fire.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yossi, the metaphor is powerful, but I have to tell this to our listeners, and I hope you're not going to be upset. For the record, today's topic was picked by you yesterday.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yes.

[Daniil Hartman]

It was like, you know, each time one of us takes the lead. And you said to me, daniil, you know, it's time. There's nothing else we should be talking about. And. Okay, so, you know, we always speak about inconsistencies. You're bringing it to another level. So I appreciate that.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Look, look, of course, of course.

[Daniil Hartman]

Are you done? Could we go back to our topic? Yes, we can.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yes.

[Daniil Hartman]

Okay. Because far be it for me. Even if I wanted to, I can't stop you. But I just. I'm just. I'm just checking. Let me just check it.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So now that we've dispensed with the metaphor, let's start with the gratitude. Okay. For me, the first place of gratitude that I come to this year is the extraordinary heroism of the younger generation of Israelis. And this is something that has gone largely unspoken. We almost take it for granted. And yet this is the Generation which until October 7th, we disparagingly called the TikTok generation. And there really was this anxiety among Israelis, certainly of our generation, of do they still have the right stuff? Did we manage to impart the ethos of Israeli courage, of self defense, of heroism to the next generation? And I don't think we've seen a generation this committed, this powerful in a long time. And what moves me so much about the heroism of our kids is that this is Israel's most thankless war. There's no glory in this war. Our soldiers are being called Nazis around the world. This is considered to be a war of disgrace. And yet we know, and our kids know that this is a war of what we used to say here is ein bre of no choice. And they rose to the occasion immediately. Some of these kids have been in uniform for 500 days. Reservists leaving their families, their work, their businesses, and taking up the burden of their generations role in the next phase of the Israeli story of Jewish history. And I'm so moved by them, Daniil. I see these kids, you see the exhaustion and the determination, and we haven't seen anything like this again in a very long time. This is Israel's longest war since 1948, since our war of independence.

[Daniil Hartman]

October 7th activated something, such a deep sense of vulnerability, a deep sense of danger. You know the famous term hineni. Here I am. If there was ever a moment this demanded it. But you're right, we didn't know if they would, how they would respond, but they did. You know, we speak about this very often, you and I, and I think there's some statement which I'm going to butcher to some degree, but it's not that great people step forward at historic times, but rather that it's historic times and challenges that produce great people. And part of the greatness of Israel is that unfortunately our population, our citizens are challenged over and again. But the density of greatness and talent that we have is because life here isn't simple. Now, October 7th took it to the nth degree, but it's been going on. You know, we, we've been living with these dangers and challenges and trying to live as if we're in some liberal Western democracy in the middle of Europe or North America, and we're not. And that tension just produces greatness. And I think October 7th, you're right to start our podcast on that because it's nothing short of greatness.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And you know, there's also another element, I think, that's playing out among our kids. In one of the songs that came out shortly after October 7, one of the Israeli songs, there's a line, this is for grandma and grandpa, you know, it's a song about mobilizing to meet the threat. And I was just overwhelmed by that line. It's a rap song, you know, and it's like you can't imagine that line appearing in a rap song in any other culture. And yet here it was taken for granted.

[Daniil Hartman]

Two Ra and you and I, we're the grandparents now, right?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We are.

[Daniil Hartman]

So they're doing it for us, right? The altecochers of Israel.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And what they're really doing it for is the chain of memory in Jewish history. And what they're saying to us is, Hineni, we're taking our place and that Israel functions. And you and I have said this very often, we function as a family, often as a dysfunctional family, but nevertheless, the core of Israeli ness is family. And that's playing out.

[Daniil Hartman]

So number one, thank you for that. I appreciate it. And I agree with you. There's probably nothing more of greater gratitude that we should give than to the quality of people which were blessed to live in their midst.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We started out with your family, thank God, really being expanded. And that for me is really the heart of the gratitude that I feel is that the family is. The Jewish family is still holding.

[Daniil Hartman]

Is still holding. I want to. I know I'm going to aggravate you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Ah, you always do. Go ahead.

[Daniil Hartman]

First of all, I don't always. But you picked the theme. And I challenged myself to come to terms with what is it that I feel gratitude for? Because I do. But my gratitude is in a different place. It actually, at the end of the day is connected to the government, the army, the establishment of Israel, all of whom were completely dysfunctional on October 7, brought upon us horrors that we never imagined. But the reality in Israel today is, is that October 7th, while scarring us, while hunting us, doesn't define who we are today, October 8th and 9th does. And that same government who was responsible for the conception and the army that was responsible for the mind boggling failures and the security services altogether coming and, and just failing us completely. While it's true in a normal country they would all have put their keys on the desk and resigned at that moment, but they didn't. Now some of them didn't because they don't want to take responsibility, and some didn't because they want to take responsibility because they knew that at this moment, they have to be at the front line. And while they can't erase October 7, they are responsible to give Israel a response to October 7. That's what I call October 8. October 8 is Israel's response to October 7, and who did it for us, the same architects of the failure. But, you know, we've just heard that the head of the Shin Bet is resigning in the middle of June. And from the beginning, he said, I'm going to resign, but I'm not walking away from a battle. I broke this. I have a responsibility to fix it. The head of the army, the head of each command and division of the army, all of whom failed. And I also want to add to this at the end, also, the government, the security cabinet, everyone should go home. But on October 8, they stood up and rebuilt our security, reclaimed our identity. And I have tremendous gratitude to that. You know, for most of Jewish history, October 7th was not the exception to the rule. It was the essence of Jewish life. October 7th was followed by another October 7th, another October 7th. When it would come, we wouldn't know wasn't in our hands. We just had to be prepared for the next punch, for the next devastation, for the next exile, the next pogrom. But here in Israel, our celebration of Jewish sovereignty, these people gave me October 8th. I'm not forgiving them, Yossi. Don't worry. I don't have amnesia, and I think much, or there are major parts of the war of October 8th that needed to be fought differently. I think we've made major mistakes as part of it. Some of those mistakes are inevitable because you can't fight even a just war without making mistakes, without civilian casualties. Some of those mistakes are much more horrific because we're responsible, because they were lapses in judgment and lapses in courage and lapses in moral responsibility. So I'm not claiming all is wonderful, but at the end of the day, you'll see. You know, we're here, we're here, we're talking. I go to Hadassah Hospital. My daughter's in a really nice room set up beautifully for young families who. Families who've just given birth. The end of the day, while so much is yet to be done, I think we could still say a partial thank you. It's not an exonerating thank you, but it's a thank you because, you know, we're alive, Yossi. And I, I. I feel gratitude even to Netanyahu. I can't stand him. I feel gratitude Though, because he took responsibility and helped marshal and produce in some of the most difficult times of Israeli society. And the Chief of Staff and the head of the Shin Bet. So I want to, since I know I have 364 days to kvetch and they deserve my complaints, they've earned them one day. I want to give thanks also as well.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So, Danielle, you're a better person than I am, really. And I think that what you've said about the security establishment is beautiful. And the fact that we can express gratitude to the very people who really are inadvertently responsible for October 7th says something about the quality of the discourse that we try to model here. And I'm deeply appreciative of that. But I can't go with you that extra mile.

[Daniil Hartman]

I know you can. I know you can.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I'll let you for a very simple reason. What you said about the heads of the security establishment was exactly right. They stood up, took responsibility, said, we're going to resign. The only people who did not do that were the government, the government ministers, and headed by the Prime Minister. This is the first government in the wake of the worst tragedy we've ever had. This government refuses to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate the war because it knows it.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yossi, you should know. I want to be really clear. Yossi, I agree with you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I know. I know you do. I understand. But when the country is as broken as it is on Independence Day, when you see on Memorial Day, bereaved parents.

[Daniil Hartman]

Yossi, I'm with you. Like shouting.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I'm asking. Wait, wait.

[Daniil Hartman]

Can I pray to you? Yossi, I'm with you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yes.

[Daniil Hartman]

You're ruining my 365th day.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I understand. But I started off by saying that this year, this Independence Day is especially difficult to do this. And I believe we, we must express gratitude. But it also has to be a realistic gratitude. Daniil, I hear you.

[Daniil Hartman]

I feel this is realistic. Yossi.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

No, Netanyahu did not stop. Did not stop dividing us, sowing hatred. Daniil, stop for a minute. Stop. Let me finish. He did not stop for a moment even after October 8th. And so to express gratitude. No, there's no gratitude there.

[Daniil Hartman]

Great. No problem. You'll see. We're going to leave it as a disagreement. I'm not going to convince you, but I'm not talking about what I want to just put on the record. I'm not talking about what you're talking about. And in the midst of all, at the end of the day, we're still here. And so let's Leave this divide amongst us where you find the gratitude and where I find it. And let's leave that as. But there's a disagreement on the table.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yes.

[Daniil Hartman]

Which is fine. We're not going to resolve it.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

But the deeper disagreement here, actually the conceptual disagreement, is over whether there are limits to gratitude. This is an interesting question. No. And your approach.

[Daniil Hartman]

I could accept that there's limits.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah. So.

[Daniil Hartman]

But I could accept there's limits. But I feel I am so grateful for the turnaround that at the end of the day was led by this government and by the military and security establishment that for one day I want to say thank you. Even if it's not a conceptual argument, the argument is whether the boundaries, where to apply them in this government. But I knew I was going to aggravate you. Let's just leave it. So let's shift because I'm going to aggravate you even more in a few minutes. Let's talk about hope. Each one of us pick your gratitude as what you're thankful for. Now, Independence Day is not just celebrating the 77 years, but it's also hope that this 77th year will be a beautiful and good one. Is there anything. I know there's the fires, and I know this is a difficult time. Is there anything that gives you hope? Yossi?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah. Yeah. We experienced over the last three years two scenarios of Israel's possible unraveling. The first was internal, which was a sense of the country disintegrating from within. And the second was October 7th being attacked from without and the border being breached and the army in total disarray. The government nowhere to be seen. And these were really two glimpses of. Into possible ways in which the Jewish state would, God forbid, unravel. And if you look at the developments over the last year, we are seeing the counterattack on both fronts. First of all, literally, the military counterattack over the last year and a half has been stunningly successful. We have effectively neutralized the Iranian arc along our borders that stretched from Gaza through Lebanon to Syria, which was really being manipulated by Iran. And we've neutralized Iran's air defenses. We have changed the security balance in the Middle east, and we've gone a long way toward reestablishing our military deterrence. So first of all, the October 7th scenario of Israel's military destruction has been pushed back. We've managed to credibly reaffirm our permanence. That's the first celebration. The second is the.

[Daniil Hartman]

That's what gives you hope.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It gives me hope that we.

[Daniil Hartman]

That we'll have a better, a more secure future.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Absolutely. And the second is that there is a majority that has emerged, let's call it the October 8th majority, that rejects October 6th, that rejects the scenario of internal disintegration. And you see that majority playing out in every poll since October 7th. First of all, just in terms of elections, every poll confirms that if elections were held, this government would lose and in some polls, lose overwhelmingly. There are other indications of this. I would call it the coalition or the majority of healing. A healing majority in Israel, that 83% demand a commission of inquiry into the failure of the war, despite the government's opposition, which means that the government has failed to even mobilize its own base to support it in blocking a commission of inquiry. And then, in probably the most painful of our schisms, at least at the moment, the question of whether we should prioritize bringing down Hamas or saving the hostages. Close to 70% today now consistently say prioritize the hostages, even if it means ending the war with Hamas. And so that, too, for me is an indication that there is a majority here, a strong majority, that prioritizes healing over anything else, including even victory over Hamas. And so I look at the condition of Israeli society, and that gives me tremendous hope for the morning after. How about you, Daniil? Where. Where are you?

[Daniil Hartman]

What gives me hope this year? Just like your analysis, where your hope is in many ways parallel to. To your gratitude. You have gratitude for the quality of Israeli society, and your hope emanates out of an Israeli society which is forming a majority that wants to heal and which is going to make it impossible for this government to remain in power. My hope is also parallel, because some of my hope also comes from the government and from the establishment of Israel. And I want to very briefly just point to four things that I don't know if our audience is aware of because they're. While this government, 364 days of the year, I feel it's dismantling most of what is holy in this country. When I actually sit back, the country's not falling apart and the establishment is not being dismantled. My fears aren't always being actualized. As I mentioned in the past, a chief of staff was selected who is a profoundly responsible, apolitical chief of staff. We don't have to go into that again. A second point that we might have mentioned is that this government started to pass one aspect of its judicial reform, but unlike the judicial reform of 2022, 23, this is a judicial reform which is not threatening the essence of the democracy of isra. And they changed the committee which will elect Supreme Court judges, but they did not give to themselves, even though they had the power. Veto. Both the coalition and the opposition still get to veto who was elected. Might not be the greatest system, but it's a system that still allows for checks and balances. But two more things that happened recently, just these last two days, that I was watching them, and I was, for me, they were interesting, and there's something positive. There's a silver lining in them. The first is that Ronen Barr, officially declared the head of the Shin Bet, declared that he's leaving on June 15. The government immediately rescinded its decision to fire him. Now, the decision of the government to fire Ronen Barr created what was potentially the most explosive constitutional crisis in the country, where the government decided to fire someone, the head of the Shin Bet, who has to work so closely with them. And the Supreme Court was questioning whether he was fired for cause or for things that he should not have been fired for. And in his expose, it became quite evident that it was for pure political reasons. I was sitting here frightened about what was going to happen when the Supreme Court was going to make its decision. And I wanted the Supreme Court to say, netanyahu government, you're wrong. And I wanted Ronen Barr and Netanyahu to sit in front the Supreme Court and let the Supreme Court pick Ronen Barr's description of reality, of why he was fired. I wanted it. I wanted that victory. But I know that if we had that victory, the country would have lost and the healing would have lost. And at the end, the government, even though they probably did it for their own reasons, chose to take a step back and to avoid that crisis. And so, as crazy as this government is, there seems to be, at the end of the day, some gap between what they talk and what they do as a result of some of the checks and balances. And the last one is the attorney general reached an agreement with no one else than Ben Vere, who has been using the Ministry of Homeland Security to politicize it, politicize its appointments, that he's going to determine policies towards demonstrations, things that are supposed to be completely outside of the purview of the political establishment. And they reach an agreement that he could continue to be minister, and he will cease from now to do any of the above. So tomorrow I'm going to complain. But you'll see, I have part of what I feel is the country's not falling apart completely in another year and a Half. We're going to have elections. When this war started, it was three years away. I think we're going to be okay in another year and a half, we're going to get to the next election not completely destroyed. There's going to be things that are standing, and it seems that this government is taking a step back when necessary. So for that, that also gives me some hope, because I don't want to come to the next election without any oxygen, without anything standing. I don't feel the country will be broken by the elections of 2026. Yossi, last. You want to comment on me, or I'll give you the second to last comment on me. And then, um.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, I disagree with, with every one of those points. But I will defer, in this instance, to the 365th day, the. The new commandment that I. I like the way you formulated it. A few years ago, Daniil. I spoke at a. In a synagogue in Manhattan, a liberal synagogue, on Independence Day. And everyone who preceded me, members of the congregation, were so despairing, so critical, that I had to say. I sounded like you. I had to say, listen, one day a year, take a break, criticize Israel, analyze, deconstruct, but give me one day of unequivocal celebration. So, yes, I appreciate what you're saying. I appreciate the perspective. But what I realize in this conversation is how broken the country is, how broken I feel that I can't unequivocally enter that space. I appreciate that which I once insisted on, its sanctity. Do not violate my Independence Day. And today I think of the hostages, and I'll leave everything else out. I'll just say the hostages, and it's unbearable. It's actually the torment, their torment, the family's torment, is so unbearable that I can't suspend that and just have a celebration. And I do feel, going back, metaphorically, Danielle, the fires that are raging on our. On our main artery on road one, I know is for me, something is burning in the country. Something's burning in me. And yet. And here I will give you the 365th day. Our tradition demands that we make the effort. You know, what a strange commandment.

[Daniil Hartman]

You have to be happy.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You must celebrate. You must, during your holidays, not. Not only celebrate exactly. You have to be happy, joyful, you know, Joyful. You know, it's. It's like the Shema prayer, commanding us to love God. Love God. We command you to be happy. And so on Independence Day, the modern Jewish experience commands us to try to do what you have Laid out here. Try.

[Daniil Hartman]

You know, Yossi, I make a difference between celebrating. I don't think most of Israel is going to be very celebratory. I know that. But conceptually, I think I could think about gratitude and hope and insist that I'm able to see that I want to end with a short dvartor, if I can. One of my father's favorites. And I might have mentioned it in the past, but who remembers anyway, where the angels turn to God and say, God, you're supposed to be a God of justice. Why are you so bountiful and loving and forgiving? Why do you show such favor to Israel? And God says, because I commanded them that when you eat and if you're full, then you're supposed to give thanks. And the Jewish people, even though they eat the equivalent of an olive or an egg and they're still hungry, they still give thanks. My father used to say that the secret of Jewish history is that we never let reality destroy us and get rid of our sense of hope. We never did. We didn't. And we got through harder moments. And these 364 days gives us much, much to worry about. But on this day, I think we have an olive and we have an egg. You mentioned some of yours, I've mentioned some of mine. I want to ask of our friends and our listeners at the end, what is it about Israel that you could give thanks for? And what is about Israel today that gives you some hope? That exercise is a tikkun. It's a correction. It's a necessary one. And at the same time, we have to do it even though we know we're still hungry. Our world is still broken and the hostages are at home. So, Yossi, happy Independence Day if you can.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Happy Independence Day.

[Daniil Hartman]

And to all of us. And we'll get back to business tomorrow. Be well, people. Nice being with you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Good to be with you.