Podcast Summary: For Heaven's Sake – "Israel at War — Red Lines"

Episode Details

• Title: Israel at War — Red Lines
• Hosts: Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
• Release Date: May 22, 2025
• Duration: Approx. 36 minutes

1. Introduction: Reopening the Dialogue

After a brief hiatus due to travel, Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi resume their weekly discussion on the complex moral dimensions of the ongoing conflict in Israel. They acknowledge the intensity and repetition of conflict dynamics, referencing Ecclesiastes: “there is nothing new under the sun” (00:00).

2. The Provocative Statement by Yair Golan

The central focus of this episode revolves around a controversial statement made by Yair Golan, the former Deputy General of the IDF and current leader of the Democratic Party. Golan asserted, “a sane country does not wage war against civilians. It does not kill babies for a hobby. It does not set goals involving the expulsion of populations” (02:30).

Impact and Reactions

• Daniil: Expresses deep concern over Golan’s use of the term "hobby," labeling it as "profoundly inappropriate" (08:55).
• Yossi: Criticizes Golan’s language as reckless, emphasizing that such statements undermine Israel’s legitimacy both on the battlefield and in the global narrative (05:26).

3. Defining Red Lines: Moral Boundaries in War

The hosts explore their differing perspectives on what constitutes a moral "red line" in warfare.

• Yossi: Emphasizes the threat to Israel’s legitimacy, stating, “We are fighting several wars simultaneously... for the legitimacy of Israel, the legitimacy of the Jewish story” (03:39). He views Golan’s remarks as feeding into a broader narrative that delegitimizes Israel, comparing the impact to that of far-right ministers like Smotrich and Ben Gvir who use genocidal language (05:25).

• Daniil: While agreeing on the gravity, he believes that the language used by Golan is not the sole issue. He highlights the necessity of balancing defense strategies with moral discourse, suggesting that without it, Israel risks moral erosion (09:03).

4. Balancing Strategic and Moral Imperatives

A significant portion of the discussion centers on whether Israel can maintain its moral integrity while effectively defending itself.

• Yossi: Argues that Golan’s statements are part of a larger problem where both the far right and reckless elements on the left undermine Israel’s moral stance. He connects this to the global fight against terrorism, stating, “How does a Western democracy defeat terrorism” without compromising moral values (08:55, 15:00).

• Daniil: Brings in the strategic perspective, questioning whether maintaining unity and moral integrity is feasible without reassessing military strategies. He posits that prolonged conflict without moral discourse could erode Israeli solidarity and international support (11:37, 30:00).

5. The Global Stage: International Perception and Consequences

The hosts delve into how international opinions and actions are shifting in response to Israel’s handling of the war.

• Yossi: Notes that statements from former Prime Minister Olmert comparing Israel’s actions to war crimes amplify the delegitimization efforts against Israel (06:49). He stresses the cumulative effect of such statements on Israel’s global standing (05:25).

• Daniil: Highlights that mainstream Israeli media, like Ynet, are beginning to voice concerns about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, reflecting a changing tide in public discourse (25:16). He underscores the importance of integrating moral obligations into Israel’s narrative to preserve its moral standing (30:00).

6. Internal Conflict: Navigating Differing Perspectives

Despite initial perceptions of disagreement, the hosts find common ground on fundamental values but differ in prioritizing them.

• Yossi: States, “We share the same basic commitments to Israel's security, to the moral health of the Jewish people” (17:29). However, he prioritizes strategic defenses to ensure Israel’s survival and ability to maintain global support (17:17).

• Daniil: Emphasizes that strategic considerations must not overshadow moral responsibilities. He believes that without a moral conversation, Israel risks losing its ethical grounding and international support (30:00).

7. The Moral Conversation Within Israel

Both hosts agree on the necessity of a robust internal dialogue about the moral implications of Israel’s actions in the war.

• Yossi: Advocates for addressing the concerns of friends and allies who are troubled by Israel’s policies, asserting that ignoring their criticism could weaken international support (23:17).

• Daniil: Points out that Israeli media and public discourse are beginning to reflect on the humanitarian impacts, signaling a shift towards a more balanced narrative that includes moral considerations (29:15).

8. Concluding Insights: Shaping the Jewish Narrative

In their closing remarks, the hosts reflect on the importance of storytelling in maintaining the Jewish identity and moral foundation.

• Yossi: Expresses a sense of despair over the conflicting certainties tearing the Jewish community apart but remains hopeful that they will emerge united in their commitments (35:07).

• Daniil: Calls for the inclusion of moral imperatives in Israel’s actions, stating, “We have to fight a war of self-defense because it's just. We have to fight a just war justly” (30:20). He underscores the obligation to integrate moral values into the broader narrative to preserve Israel’s ethical integrity (33:44).

Notable Quotes

• Daniil Hartman (00:00): “For heaven’s sake, Israel at war. Day 593. I needed to be with you this week.”
• Yossi Klein Halevi (03:39): “We are fighting several wars simultaneously... for the legitimacy of Israel, the legitimacy of the Jewish story.”
• Daniil Hartman (08:55): “It's a profoundly inappropriate term.”
• Yossi Klein Halevi (15:00): “I'm sure that my two certainties conflict. There are moral red lines that the Jewish people at war cannot cross.”
• Daniil Hartman (30:20): “We have to fight a just war justly.”

Final Thoughts

In "Israel at War — Red Lines," Hartman and Halevi provide a deep and nuanced exploration of the moral and strategic challenges facing Israel amid ongoing conflict. They navigate the complexities of maintaining ethical standards while ensuring national security, highlighting the critical importance of internal and global perceptions in shaping Israel’s future. This episode underscores the necessity of balancing strategic imperatives with moral obligations to sustain both national integrity and international legitimacy.