Daniel Hartman (3:57)

First of all, Dani' El, this hits both of us in a very visceral place. There's nothing abstract about attacks against the American Jewish community for either of us, for the reason that you just laid out. Just recently, I spoke in a synagogue in Denver and a large contingent of Jews came from Boulder to attend the event. And I immediately thought of them. One of my friends, Bruce Schaeffer, has been an organizer of this vigil, and he happened to be in Israel when it happened. But my first impulse was to reach out to Bruce, are you okay? People? You know, and of course, he knew everyone. And so that's just. On the most basic level, this hits me in a particularly tender place. And the love that I feel for the American Jewish community, the extraordinary gifts that the Jewish people has received from this community, and the vulnerability of this community now is very painful for me. And we, as an institute, we live on that fault line, which for us is not a fault line. It enriches who we are. But for many people in Israel and American Jewry, the relationship is experienced as a fault line. And the Hartman Institute sits exactly on that place of creative tension between these two very, very different Jewish communities. So then we need to make the shift from the emotional reactive place to really trying to understand this moment. And maybe because we're not just American Jews or coming from the American Jewish community, but because we're Israelis, primarily Israelis, for me, for last 40 years, gives us a certain measure of perspective. And it's so important, what you said, that we not go into Holocaust default mode. It's not the 1930s, certainly not 1930s Europe. If it does, God forbid, become the 1930s in America, it will be the American 1930s, which was a very uncomfortable place for Jews, but it was not the 1930s.

Yossi Klein Halevi (6:23)

But even that, you know, if I could stop you. In the 1930s, there it was normalized statewide, even if not state sponsored, but normalized. Antisemitism. This is not an antisemitism of Christianity in a broader sense.

Daniel Hartman (6:38)

No. And it's really interesting to bring that comparison up, Danielle, because what was happening in the United states in the 1930s, even as anti Semitic movements were becoming popular and drawing actually millions of supporters, the first seeds were being planted of what later became the Jewish Christian interfaith relationship in the 1930s. So America has been different from the beginning. And in fact, there's this fantastic story. The Constitution is being ratified in the late 18th century, and there's a celebratory march in Philadelphia. And leading the march are Jewish and Christian clergy, arms linked in the late 18th century. So it's really important, I think, before we get into this conversation, to emphasize that America has always been different. And even now, I believe that America still is different. Having said that, what's so terrifying now?

Yossi Klein Halevi (7:41)

We could begin.

Daniel Hartman (7:44)

To quote Portnoy's complaint, the last line after he's sitting with his psychiatrist. The whole book is Portnoy pouring out his heart. Okay, and now let us begin. Where we begin is what a terrifying moment this is for American Jews. That what they're feeling, the image that American Jews are using is a pincer. They're being threatened by the far right, which is growing. Antisemitism is taking deep root in these enormously popular podcasts, Joe Rogan and others, when antisemitism is being normalized along with anti Zionism, by the way, which is new on the right. And so when a swastika is painted on a synagogue, Jews don't know whether it's a right wing swastika celebrating Nazism or a left wing swastika accusing us of being Nazis. This is where American Jews are now. Until the last weeks, as you put it, it was still conceptual. It was still in the realm of hateful speech. And there were Jews warning from October 8, from the beginning, saying this hateful speech is going to lead to the murder of Jews. And when you say globalize the intifada, it means physical violence against Diaspora Jews. Now in Europe, Jews have lived with this for 50 years. There's nothing surprising about this. But what I think we're experiencing now is the Europeanization of American Jewish life. And we've been seeing the gradual transformation of American Jewry from this safe, privileged, privileged community that felt it was living a Jewish version of American exceptionalism. American jewelry was the great exception in Jewish history. And it Feels much less so since October 7th and especially now.

Yossi Klein Halevi (9:53)

You know, it's interesting the comparison. See, I still feel, and I want to go back to your remarks beforehand that America still is different and Canada, Canada is going through some serious changes. And I don't. It could be that things are more uncomfortable for Canadian Jews.

Daniel Hartman (10:10)

There are fewer of them.

Yossi Klein Halevi (10:11)

They feel that's the point. That's why the American Europeanization is. Jews in America are still more powerful and the allies of the Jews are still the dominant, dominant group in America. But fear, I don't think America's French, but fear and not paranoid fear and not over exaggerated fear. A real reality. I send my kids to school, I go to shul, I wear a keeper. And it's not somebody just shouting and you know, calling you some anti Semitic Slurpees. Now what does it take to throw a Molotov cocktail? What does it take, you know, in America with the prevalence of guns, what does it take to shoot a Jew? So it is, it's, it's what's remarkable also Yossi, is how dominant something could be as an experience, even though it's not necessarily predominant.

Daniel Hartman (11:05)

Right.

Yossi Klein Halevi (11:05)

As an empirical reality.

Daniel Hartman (11:07)

Right.

Yossi Klein Halevi (11:07)

And that doesn't mean that you're exaggerating. I'm not. That's the way terror works, you know, terror works, you know, it once a month gets you. It's the war against the Jews or it's the terrorizing of the Jews in this reality. So, and I think in that sense your comparison to Europe is real. It's, you know, whenever you go to Europe you feel very, very different. You know, the Israeli security forces always have told us now for years, don't wear Jewish symbols in public in Europe, but in America, why shouldn't I wear a Jewish symbol?

Daniel Hartman (11:41)

Would you reconsider wearing a kippah in America?

Yossi Klein Halevi (11:44)

In certain places? Probably, yes. The airports know where security is clear. See, I'm not afraid of institutional antisemitism. I was just, for example, I was in Toronto or North Carolina, you know, and I'm being checked in Toronto by a woman with a hijab. And in North Carolina I was the only keeper in this vast huge airport walking and walking from one gate to the it I was, I realized that I'm the only one, you know, I realized that there's like you're something a little strange about you and. But that I was frightened not for a moment, but if I was walking now in the streets of Washington, maybe Manhattan is different given the. But you never know now it doesn't it's not that the street isn't safe. It's that there are actors who are now normalizing this expression of murderous intent. And you never know. So this not knowing, that's the power of terror. Do you think I'm wrong?

Daniel Hartman (12:45)

No, no, I don't. But I don't think the problem is only or even primarily the very small numbers of people on the left, on the right from the Muslim community who are going to physically attack Jews. I think the problem is more the ideological context that's being create where in some ways the Jews are no longer quite legitimate. And when you compare Israel routinely to Nazi Germany, the American Jewish community, which has Israeli flags on its synagogue behemoth are somehow pro Nazi, are surrogate Nazis. Yes, they shouldn't be attacked because they're American citizens. We don't want violence in American society. But they're not quite innocent either. That's the vibe now.

Yossi Klein Halevi (13:40)

So let me push you for a second, Yossi, on that. See, because there is a little difference between us. I believe that what's changed are these 50 people. And there might be more than 50, there might be 500, there might be 5,000. Maybe that's my aversion from the beginning. It's not the larger story. I think what's changed. It's like I see this as like the Houthi missiles. You know, every day or two we get this notification on our telephone, tells us, okay, go, you know, and you have a minute and a half, you know, and my grandson, my in my daughter's home. Their safe room is in one of my granddaughter's rooms. So my little baby grandson, he doesn't know we're going to a safe room. We're going to Mia's room, you know, oh, he hears the sirens. Hi, we have to run to Mia's room. He has no idea. But it's like it's normalized. It's just like we're not. It's just like it's a normal thing that we're doing. But, you know, one missile, you know, still to this day, airports, the airlines haven't returned. There's something, it's just there and it just changes the way you live. But in that context, and let me give you a platform, you'll take it anyway. But I'm going to offer it to you. How did you understand this moment of anti Semitism? You're saying it's not just the 5,500. And I agree. I know it's bigger than that. I know, but I'm saying what's what's changing. The existential reality is this normalized violence. But you're saying it's something bigger. So how do you understand this new manifestation of anti Semitism? Because it's not anti Semitism from the right. This is primarily anti Semitism. Predominantly anti Semitism. I don't know what I call Islamic left. I don't know. So I don't know if right and left even make sense. But. But please. There's also a difference between Boulder and Washington, where they came from and what their. What, what distorted Torah they grew up on. But how do you understand this?

Daniel Hartman (15:36)

Well, one of the differences between the assault on the Jews that's coming from the left and the assault that's coming from the right is that it's very important for the left to present its animus toward Jews as different from classical antisemitism. Coming from the right, there is a certain shamelessness, which I actually prefer because it's more honest. Yes, we hate Jews and you control the banks and the media and the world economy. And, and there's something I would say more refreshing.

Yossi Klein Halevi (16:16)

Let's just share our audience. We just had a moment of humor talking about refreshing anti Semit. That's just. Look, the word we're living world we're living in. Please continue.

Daniel Hartman (16:29)

What troubles me so much about, about left wing antisemitism, besides the obvious, is its disingenuousness and the contortions that it goes through to try to show that it isn't part of a historical pattern of singling out the Jews as the world's great criminals. For me, that's classical antisemitism. And I've said this on our podcast several times, that for me, antisemitism is turning the Jew into the symbol of whatever a given civilization defines as its most objectionable qualities. And we're seeing that happen to the Jewish state. If the Jewish state becomes Nazi Germany, then that fits a very uncomfortable pattern. Now, before we get into the question of what power has done to us, and this is something you and I have talked about a lot on this podcast, and we need to talk about it in this context as well. I just want to play this out a little bit more. And there was a statement that was released by Cairo, one of the main Muslim American organizations, denouncing the attack in Boulder as a heinous crime and then inevitably segueing to but, but. The but is. And the first but is, let's not forget, you know, what Israel is doing. But the bigger but here for care is don't taint the anti genocide movement with the violent actions of a few extremists. Now listen to that language. That language in itself tells us that this problem is much bigger than a few extremists. And by calling the movement to stop the Gaza war an anti genocide movement, you are pointing the finger to one of the main problems, one of the main sources of this time, which is the routinization of Israel as the world's great criminal. And this is a moment, by the way, Danielle, and this, you know, it's something that really sits heavily with me. The Muslim American community is facing a moment of truth right now. And is it capable of condemning unequivocally, without the but violence against their fellow American citizens? Let's just put it on that most basic primal civic level. Can you stand with your fellow citizens unequivocally? And from what I see in the American Jewish, in the, in the American Muslim community, they're not necessarily passing this test. And Daniil, you know where this is coming from. I've worked personally with the Muslim American community for the last decade. We as an institution have passionately embraced the Muslim Jewish connection as essential to our 21st century mission as an institution. And beginning with October 7th and culminating now, there's this sense of fundamental rupture similar to again what's happened in Europe between, between Muslims and Jews, which makes this all the more personally devastating for me.

Yossi Klein Halevi (19:51)

I want to relate to some of the things that you said and I haven't spent a lifetime like you analyzing and thinking about antisemitism. I don't know if I was even allowed to.

Daniel Hartman (20:06)

By your father?

Yossi Klein Halevi (20:07)

Yeah. My mother was always very, very sensitive to the dangers of anti Semitism. You know, when I look at this moment, you know, and you spoke about right wing antisemitism and left wing antisemitism and also, I don't know if this will be helpful. You're the better judge of this. Classic right wing antisemitism is an antisemitism against Jews for what we did or for the essence of who a Jew is, who we are. Either. We were Christ killers. And I always had difficulty even responding. Christianity starts 300 years after the death of Jesus. Let's say Jews were responsible. I never understood why this was such a big issue. Like who is out there, who's an anti Roman right now because of the murder and devastation that the Romans brought onto Europe or even who now is calling for the killing of or the discrimination against Germans for what happened just two generations ago. As a colleague of mine said to me today, Alon Shalev, he was like, what is this hatred in the past? And that's one of the reasons why I always saw anti Semitism as a manifestation of the human capacity for evil. Precisely these reasons. This is the reason, like, we killed. This is what's motivating it. Or the second manifestation of antisemitism on the right is not what we did, but what is the essence of the Jew. You call it the embodiment of evil and corruption of the evil de jure. That's your language. But this whole notion of the Jew as something ugly and vulgar, it's who we are, and false doesn't matter. It was. Being a minority, it was always easy to manifest your impulse to evil and express it through hatred of Jews. The antisemitism from the left which we're seeing today, I think has a different quality to it, because it's not about who we are as Jews. And it's not what we did, it's what we're doing. The justification for it is, look what Jews are doing now. And that makes it, as you said, much more complicated, because Jews, whether we are committing genocide in Gaza or not, we are killing civilians. You know, is it a fine legal debate what we do or don't do? That's a separate issue. But we are doing something. We are at war. We have killed roughly 50,000 people, many of them Hamas terrorists. It might have been a war that was just. Even though the anti Semites don't recognize it, but it's not calling us. It's not growing out of the Nakba. It's not talking about 1947. It's not even talking about the occupation. Even that that could still continue. It's about this war now. And it's growing out of a response which makes it, as you said, far more complicated because it could shield its anti Semitic impulses, it could deny it. And we also know that not everybody who's critiquing Israel is an anti Semite either. So it's a far more complicated, subversive and difficult. And it's difficult even for those who are feeling it, because when you paint all of them as anti Semites, I'm not an anti Semite. Many of our Muslim graduates who graduated from our program, they're not anti Semites. They never were anti Semites. But there is something about this demonization of Israel. There is a language which is being used about Israel's war. And everybody knows how critical I am. But still there is that level of demonization of what's taking place. That's a unique feature of the left as distinct from right wing. And I'm going to ask you to one comment on that distinction and more. Does it make a difference? Because at the end, hatred is hatred is hatred. Murder is murder is murder. If it does grow out of something we do, are there any responsibilities we have? Because in the past I said, if it's what we did, I can't do chuva for maybe some Jews killing creed. What do you want from me? But now, does it obligate us to maybe look at what we're doing?

Daniel Hartman (24:35)

It's a really important question because what we're hearing from the left is actually, in the end, not that dissimilar from what we're hearing from the right. Increasingly, it's not about what Israel does, but what Israel is. And there is a. And there is a spectrum of criticism here. We've said this over and over, Daniil. Criticism of Israel's actions is not only is it not anti Semitic, but when it comes from our friends, we are obligated to take that criticism seriously and to examine ourselves, examine our actions. But the problem of this moment is that there is all kinds of criticism and they're being conflated. And so much of what we're hearing from the left is not criticism of Israel's actions. And the spectrum is Israel is committing war crimes. The war itself is a crime. Israel itself is a crime. That's the progression on the left. And when you think about the reaction to October 7th, I mean, what did we hear even from people who are not necessarily anti Israel, There was this kind of discomfort with wholly embracing the Israeli narrative of October 7th. Well, let's not forget the occupation. President Obama said it immediately after October 7th and many others. And the implication was, okay, Hamas went too far and it was a crime, but the Jews in some way brought this on themselves. Now, that was not at all the Israeli perception of October 7, including on the Israeli left, virtually all Israeli Jews saw October 7th not as the reaction of an occupied people to oppression, but of an assault by radical Islamism against the existence of a Jewish state in any borders. And that's why virtually all of Israeli Jewish society came together on October 8th in support of this war. We haven't seen that level of unanimity around the justness of a war, of an asymmetrical war, of brutal war maybe since the yom Kippur War 50 years ago. And so this big disconnect between Israel and much of the world began on October 8th and over the question of did we bring October 7th on ourselves. And the same question is being raised today over the violent anti Zionism that American Jews are experiencing. Okay, it's terrible, but maybe the fact that you're marching with an Israeli flag in Boulder, maybe you're not so innocent you're identifying with genocide.

Yossi Klein Halevi (27:39)

Could I try something on you? And since this podcast is just a private conversation and it's off the record, but I want to try something.

Daniel Hartman (27:49)

Funnily enough, it does feel that way sometimes.

Yossi Klein Halevi (27:51)

I don't want to get into trouble. I want to try something on you. And I'm not sure I agree with it, but I want to say it. When somebody raises their hands against a member of my people, when somebody engages in anti Semitic acts of violence, I have no, I've said this before. I have no desire to understand your motives. All I want to do is to defend myself and use every aspect of power that I have access to, to limit you. If it's in Israel, to kill you, if that's, if you're coming to kill me, to defend myself, and if it's to use soft power, whatever power and influence I have, to marginalize you, to limit your ability to find the oxygen you need to feed your hatred, that. Let's, let's, let's just simple. October 7th does not grow out of an occupation. October 7th. Anybody who engages in October 7th is not somebody who's combating an occupation. It's somebody who wants to kill Jews and destroy the state of Israel. It's not 1967, it's not 2003 or 5. It's 1947. It's the delegitization of Israel and any rights that the Jewish people have to sovereignty, that's clear. But in this environment of, let's call it the left discourse, there is a spectrum of antisemitisms that I want us to be aware of. And while I can't take any responsibility to try to save this Egyptian or this Latino man who all feel that we are the embodiment of evil, there is an evil in their soul that has given them legitimacy to kill or to engage in an act of violence. There is no but at the same time, not but about their violence. But there is another spectrum of antisemites that are emerging. I want to call them soft antisemites or even marginal antisemites, or maybe even questionable antisemites who are living in a world of discourse in which the demonization of Israel is mainstream. And they feel it. Yes, they feel that Israel's committing genocide. And by the way, it is this larger community that serves as the conceptual framework to normalize the actions of the extreme now the extreme only act. They don't act alone, even though they're lone wolves. They need a context in which their behavior is seen as legitimate. And this vilification of Israel, this inability to even consider that, yes, maybe even maybe, if you want to argue Israel's committing genocide, that it is from nothing, that there is no complexity, there's no responsibility of Hamas in the story, all of the above. It's a simple story, simple, simple story. But when that there is a group there, there is a discourse that I believe we have also helped to create. I'm not taking responsibility for antisemitism, but there is something new emerging that hasn't emerged in the past. And maybe it was there, maybe it's the same as, as the radical, violent anti Semite. And we in Israel have, I believe, engaged in the worst, worst type of military campaign. Not in, in our right to defend ourselves, but we haven't even tried to create a moral discourse and a moral aspiration with which to explain. Nobody even knows when is the last time the Israeli government even explained barely what it's doing in Gaza. It's as if we're not as a public relations campaign. There is this whole universe that we are basically giving over to the vilifiers of Israel. And I believe that one of the things that Israel needs to do is we have to take responsibility for the reality that we are creating, which is endangering parts of our people around the world. It has to be one of the considerations we think about when we think about how we engage in moral discourse. And I don't want to go on and on, but there are so many things that the prime ministers and the leaders of Israel could have said to alleviate any concern that we in fact want to occupy Gaza, that we want to banish the people, that we don't care about starvation. Now all of this is feeding the environment. And in that sense we're not responsible for the anti Semite and we're not responsible for the choosing to vilify and demonize everything that we're doing and flatten the conversation. But at the same time, this is not some distortion of the past. We have to do, had to have done, and still to this day have to act differently if we're going to be able to reclaim a moral place for Israel and for Israel's supporters. So did I cross a line, Yossi? I don't know. In the middle, I was ambivalent about myself.

Daniel Hartman (33:29)

Yeah. The only question that I have, Daniel, and I suspect is your question as well, is whether this is a moment to raise that and whether we should be, for at least for a moment, pausing that question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

Yossi Klein Halevi (33:45)

That's not my consideration. You should know, because I'm never worried about the moments, because these moments become eternal. That's yours. That's your feeling. If I have any hesitation, I hate taking any response. I don't believe that you cause evil. So that's my hesitation. But we are causing decent people who aren't evil to move to a place and then they enter a spectrum of anti Zionist. I think that's anti Semitism.

Daniel Hartman (34:21)

I think that's a really important point. And you know, power, the Jewish reclamation of power, which you and I have, have repeatedly celebrated as, as. As the means for the Jewish people's ability to protect itself and, and to heal from the past, brings with it responsibilities and, and. And more than that, to quote a Danihilism, it complexifies. It complexifies this period that we're living through where on the one hand, we feel increasingly ambivalent about what the Israeli government is doing, and on the other hand, increasingly vulnerable and outraged against the growing antisemitism from both left and right. Maybe I'll take the last word here, even though you have.

Yossi Klein Halevi (35:14)

And I will give it to you. No, I will give you the last word conditional on what you say.

Daniel Hartman (35:21)

So the question really of this particular moment, the most urgent question that I hear, is do the Jews bring this on themselves? And of course, power makes this moment more complicated. And as you said, there are dead babies in Gaza which the IDF has inadvertently killed. And for me, that's the crucial word. But nevertheless, accusations against us are no longer entirely invented. We knew in the past that we didn't kill Jesus.

Yossi Klein Halevi (35:59)

We knew that or it didn't matter, or who cares?

Daniel Hartman (36:04)

Yeah. And we knew that we don't use the blood of Christian children to bake matzah.

Yossi Klein Halevi (36:10)

That we knew.

Daniel Hartman (36:12)

We knew that accusations against the Jews were entirely malicious and invented. And the accusations now are more complicated. But at what point do those who accuse have to start examining themselves and say, maybe the accusations are too sweeping and maybe we are inadvertently repeating historical patterns that are deeply uncomfortable. And there was something I saw on my social media feed, and this is actually, I've seen variations of this since October 7th, which is, look at the chosen people. And you just feel this Almost unconscious, welling up up of decades of Western resentment against the Jews for the Holocaust. There was a German Jewish journalist, Henrik Broder, who famously said, the Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz. And it's a brilliant insight. And there's this deep sense of, you've put all this guilt on us for the Holocaust and we just can't wait to throw this back into your face. This. And it's a gotcha moment.

Yossi Klein Halevi (37:39)

It's a gotcha moment. I would, I, I, I'm giving you the last word with just one small caveat, but not about you, but I want to maybe refine something in light of what you said, because I'm not saying that the Jews have brought it upon ourselves. I'm asking whether it's some of our responsibility to be part of the solution, that Jews around the world are being threatened in a new way. And by just simply claiming, like at the old antisemitism, there's nothing you can do. It's just evil. I think Israeli policies have to think about multiple things and maybe we have to talk about this another time. We have to worry about the security and safety of Israel. We have to worry about defeating Hamas, we have to worry about geopolitical affairs. We have to literally secure all of the above. One of the calculations we have to think about is not whether we're bringing upon ourselves hatred, let's put all the blame at the anti Semitic evil, but whether we can be part of the solution and whether in some of the things we say and in some of our policies, we can't help increase some of the security of Jews worldwide. Yossi, last word.

Daniel Hartman (38:48)

Last, last word. It's a very important distinction you've just raised. And maybe what we really need to think about, and this is especially relevant for the two of us as Israeli Americans or American Israelis, is there's one conversation on antisemitism that needs to happen in the Diaspora, another conversation that needs to happen in Israel. In Israel, we need to ask ourselves as a sovereign Jewish state, what do we need to do to help ease the predicament of Diaspora Jews?

Yossi Klein Halevi (39:22)

And it's not just telling them, come make aliyah. Because that you know Jews and say, that's just silly. It's like the old silly story.

Daniel Hartman (39:31)

You know what, really, let's pat Israel on the back here for a moment because you're not hearing that discourse in Israel.

Yossi Klein Halevi (39:37)

That's correct. Thank God.

Daniel Hartman (39:38)

So we're maturing. I think Israel and its relationship to the Diaspora is there's a certain maturing.

Yossi Klein Halevi (39:45)

Thank you.

Daniel Hartman (39:46)

But it's also yes, we have a responsibility for the Diaspora and here it gets tricky because the two of us, we hate the identification of Jews with victims. But Jews in the Diaspora are a minority. And what American Jewry has discovered very uncomfortably to its amazement and its shock is that American Jewry since October 7th is a minority again.

Yossi Klein Halevi (40:14)

Is a minority. You know.

Daniel Hartman (40:15)

Yes, I feel that's what this is about.

Yossi Klein Halevi (40:18)

You know, as we're talking and we're having the last word, the last word, the last and last it's I think we're just touching this subject, the whole issue. So it's important. Like this whole conversation now from an Israeli perspective might need its own episode. But in any event, my friend, it's wonderful to be with you.

Daniel Hartman (40:37)

Great to be with you.

Yossi Klein Halevi (40:38)

This is Israel at war day 606 and this is also in many ways the Jewish people feeling that they're at war. Not an easy time. Be well everyone.