Israel's Sovereignty Crisis

Summary

For Heaven’s Sake: Israel’s Sovereignty Crisis

Episode Date: February 18, 2026
Hosts: Donniel Hartman & Yossi Klein Halevi
Podcast: For Heaven’s Sake, Shalom Hartman Institute & Ark Media

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi delve into Israel’s current “sovereignty crisis,” unpacking what it means for the state to lose control within its own borders. The discussion focuses on recent violent events involving Israel’s Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) community, ongoing violence in Arab-Israeli sectors, and the apparent willingness of the current Israeli government to abdicate traditional notions of sovereignty for the sake of political survival. Throughout the conversation, they connect contemporary realities to deep questions about governance, identity, tribalism, and the future of Zionism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Sovereignty Crisis

• Sovereignty Historically External, Now Internal:
  Traditionally, Israel’s sovereignty issues have revolved around defending its borders; today, the crisis is internal—spanning cities and sectors within the country’s recognized territory.

  • Quote (Donniel Hartman, 02:58):
    “Now, sovereignty essentially means... to hold onto a territory, your territory, to the exclusion of all others... But we're facing now not a sovereignty problem, but a profound sovereignty crisis inside.”

• Current Events as Symptoms:
  The attack on two female IDF soldiers by Haredi youths in Bnei Brak and the surge in violent crime within Arab-Israeli communities are showcased as vivid examples. In both sectors, the state’s presence and authority have receded.

  • Quote (Donniel, 04:04):
    “We can't send our soldiers into an Israeli city to do their job... it's just not part of the country.”

2. Government Abdication & Selective Sovereignty

• Coalition Politics Undermining Authority:
  The coalition government, heavily reliant on Haredi and far-right support, enables these factions to operate autonomously, even openly defying national laws such as military conscription.

  • Quote (Yossi, 08:39):
    “A country that can't impose what the overwhelming majority of citizens and the army itself regards as a critical security need is a crisis of sovereignty.”

• Different Treatment of Communities:
  The state indulges Haredi non-compliance due to political necessity yet exhibits contempt and neglect toward Arab-Israelis, creating parallel crises of sovereignty.

  • Quote (Yossi, 14:43):
    “In the government's relationship with the Haredi... there's an indulgence... needed to uphold Netanyahu’s coalition. In the case of the Arab Israelis, there's an active contempt, a denial that you are part of us.”

3. Fragmentation and Anarchy Across Multiple Fronts

• Breakdown of Central Authority:
  An atmosphere of “sovereign quicksand” pervades. It’s not just in contested areas but stretches—by the hosts’ account—to the government and judiciary themselves. Ministers pursue autonomous agendas; even the Attorney General refuses to defend the government in court.
  • Quote (Donniel, 20:43):
    “The whole system. The Minister of Justice refused yesterday to state that if the Supreme Court gives a ruling, he's not committing to accept... So you have this dismantling. And I have to tell you, it's a very strange experience.”

4. Tribalism vs. Collective Identity

• Israel as a Mosaic of Tribes:
  The hosts draw on biblical texts (Numbers 32) to frame Israel’s dilemma as one between legitimate tribal/communal claims and the needs of the larger collective.

  • Quote (Donniel, 27:05):
    “Part of the breakdown, this chaos, this lack of sovereignty, is that the whole system is falling apart. First, it falls apart on the tribal level... as sovereignty is breaking down, their only responsibility is to look out for themselves.”

• Leadership Failing to Balance the Needs:
  Instead of integrating divergent groups, the state allows (or even encourages) tribal self-interest, pushing the nation toward deeper fragmentation.

5. The Right’s Redefinition of Sovereignty

• From State to Land:
  For parts of the Israeli right, the ideological focus has shifted from the authority of the state to a near-sacred relationship with the land itself.

  • Quote (Yossi, 15:38):
    “It's not about the state, it's about the land... The land of Israel has greater weight than the state of Israel.”

• Slogans Meet Reality:
  The irony is highlighted: Politicians who ran on restoring order are overseeing the disintegration of state control.

  • Quote (Yossi, 23:32):
    “Ben Grier's slogan was Mepo Barnabite, who here is the sovereign. And under Ben Grier, we are losing whole parts of sovereign Israel.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Absurdity of “Kosher” Phones with WhatsApp
  (Donniel, 05:16):
  "Technically... kosher phones in the Haredi community don't have WhatsApps... But somehow in Bnei Brak, the WhatsApp system is working."
  (Yossi, 05:19):
  "It's a miracle."

• On Leadership Responsibility
  (Yossi, 33:55):
  “My problem really is with the top leadership in this country and the abrogation of the responsibility of sovereignty.”

• On the Coming Elections
  (Yossi, 34:30):
  “This is the issue that's going to define the next election: Are we going to return to a normative understanding of national sovereignty, or allow the Right's distorted understanding of sovereignty to become the new Israeli norm?”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:02-04:07] – Framing Israel’s internal sovereignty crisis
• [04:43-06:01] – Case study: Soldiers attacked in Bnei Brak; WhatsApp and Haredi mobilization
• [08:39-12:04] – Crisis of sovereignty over military draft and government abdication
• [14:43-15:41] – Contrasting state attitudes toward Haredi and Arab communities
• [18:00-20:43] – Anarchy at every level: Ministers, judiciary, coalition survival
• [27:05-30:13] – Tribalism vs. collective identity, biblical reference (Numbers 32)
• [33:24-34:35] – Final reflections: Leadership failure and the critical choice ahead

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Tone and Flow

The conversation is engaged, at times wry, but driven by deep concern and an urgent sense of purpose. The speakers examine current events and systemic failings both analytically and morally, frequently referencing classical Jewish sources and the nation’s founding values. Their tone alternates between alarm, irony, empathy, and historical perspective, inviting listeners to grapple honestly with the state’s moral and existential crossroads.

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Summary Takeaway

Hartman and Halevi argue that Israel’s gravest contemporary threat is not external but internal: the erosion of state sovereignty—manifest in lawlessness, tribal fragmentation, and a government unwilling or unable to assert collective authority for fear of political instability. This, they contend, is not only a security crisis, but a crisis of national identity, leadership, and purpose, which will define the fate of Israel’s democracy in the years ahead.

Transcript

[Daniil Hartman]

Hi, friends. At the Sholem Hartman Institute, we believe that Jewish life thrives when we engage courageously and honestly with the moral and spiritual challenges of our time. For me, the work of building a Judaism that is intellectually vibrant, ethically serious, and infused with hope is not just a professional calling. It is a commitment to our shared future. Each summer, our Community Leadership program turns Jerusalem into a Beit Midrash of ideas and a laboratory of leadership. Learners and leaders from across the Jewish world come together to study, to question, to argue, and ultimately to imagine a more meaningful and more responsible Jewish future. This year, I invite you to join me from July 1st to July 7th to explore the ideas and values that can anchor us in this complicated moment. You'll learn with me and with my extraordinary colleagues and with a community bound together by curiosity, purpose and possibility, space is Limited. Visit sholemhartman.org CLP to reserve your spot. Hope to see you there.

[Alana Steinhein]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[Daniil Hartman]

We can't send our soldiers into an Israeli city to do their job. You can't do your job in your country. What has been abrach now ex territory of this country, it's just not part of the country. There's almost an intentional receding of sovereignty. We're sitting, it feels like, on a sovereign quicksand.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I think that we are facing a crisis of anarchy on so many fronts.

[Daniil Hartman]

Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Kleinhilevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute, and this is our podcast, for heaven's sake, in collaboration with Ark Media. Today is Tuesday, February 17th. Our theme for today is Israel's sovereignty crisis. And we're not talking about Iran, even though that is a sovereignty crisis. And part of the experience of living in Israel right now is like, everybody's waiting. Everybody's waiting. When is the next stage of the negotiation? What's going to happen? We don't know which night something's going to happen and our world will be significantly changed, transformed or not. It's just sort of this waiting game. But our sovereignty crisis is not principally a sovereignty crisis which is affecting our borders.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

It's a sovereignty because we've proven that we have the ability to meet that.

[Daniil Hartman]

Sovereignty crisis, to meet that sovereignty crisis. So even October 7, there was a challenge, there was a violation, like, we thought that Israel, at least on this level, was sovereign, that that Gaza did not pose a sovereignty crisis. Hamas posed a security challenge, but not a sovereignty crisis. And the ease through which it was able to penetrate the borders felt like a sovereignty crisis. Hezbollah, it didn't reach that, even though when missiles fly in, that's a sovereignty crisis, because it's coming from outside. Now, sovereignty essentially means the definition of sovereignty is to hold onto a territory, your territory, to the exclusion of all others. And we've done well. Israel has always had sovereignty challenges, has always had sovereignty threats and dangers, and we still do. And Iran poses one of the more significant sovereignty crises because, as you said, it's an existential threat. But we're facing now not a sovereignty problem, but a profound sovereignty crisis inside.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Our borders, in our identity, in our.

[Daniil Hartman]

Being in the functioning of this country. And we're sitting here in this dual mode, on the one hand, worrying about the borders, and there's a decay spreading in the country's management of itself, of what it means to be a sovereign country. This week, the whole country received wasn't a wake up call. It was more like a slap. When two Israeli soldiers, female soldiers, are attacked in Bnei Brak by a mob.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Which is the largest ultra orthodox city.

[Daniil Hartman]

Ultra Orthodox city, by a mob of ultra orthodox students who are supposed to be in yeshiva, but they get a WhatsApp. There's a WhatsApp. The Army's coming to draft and it's called Code Black the minute it's sent out on their WhatsApps. And technically, by the way, the kosher phones in the haredi community don't have WhatsApps. Take that from my wife as a school psychologist. In the haredi community, the kosher phones have no WhatsApp. But somehow in Bnei Brak, the WhatsApp system is working.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

It's a miracle.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's true. That's right. A phone that doesn't have WhatsApp is somehow able to get WhatsApp. There's a WhatsApp group. It's truly a miracle. That's a great line. You'll see, by the way. And mobs come out and post October 7th. You know, our female soldiers are holy now. They're holy. They're on the front lines. Our women were kidnapped. Our women were attacked, Our women fought. There's no separation now between male soldiers, female soldiers, and these female soldiers are attacked. They have to hide and then the police have to bring them out and.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

They'Re attacked by a mob of people who don't serve in the army, who.

[Daniil Hartman]

Don'T serve in the army.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Just to compound the outrage.

[Daniil Hartman]

To compound the outrage. And we'll tell the story, we'll talk about that in greater depth. But like, really, it's like the Israeli army and the police we can't send our soldiers into an Israeli city to do their job. And their job, by the way, was to meet with new draftees to make them aware of some of the things that they're going to be experiencing. You can't do your job in your country. What is Bin Abra now Ex territory of this country? It's just not part of the country. At the same time that this is happening, the continuing murder of Israeli Arab Palestinians. Now it's almost. It's every day. The numbers this last 50 days is 50, 49, 50, 51. Insane numbers every day. 1, 2, 3. What's going on here? What's going on? It says, if we're not sovereign over Israeli Arab population. And Minister Smotrich, who I'm going to quote a few times today, today in the Knesset, turns to an Israeli Arab Knesset member and says, what do you want? What is my fault? That Arabs are killing? That you're killing yourself, each other? What does he mean? Like, who's you? Like, I have no responsibility. Yeah, Hilltop Youth today, outside of Hebron, I don't know if it was Hill. Every time it happens, we call them the Hilltop Youth, but according to NETANYAHU, there's only 60 of them. So I don't know how they're so busy and how they're so effective. Hundred sheep are burnt. Continued violence. And when yesterday the head of the Shabak Israel Security Forces says, I am now going to be directing attention and resources to combat Jewish terror, he gets threatened by the Deputy Knesset speaker members, beware, be careful. Don't pursue the path of the others who didn't make a distinction between Jewish terror and Palestinian terror and lost their jobs. And he basically wants to say, I'm sovereign here. It's not an accident. There's almost an intentional receding of sovereignty. And we're sitting, it feels like, on a sovereign quicksand. We need to talk about it because this is one of the most significant issues facing Israel today. The elections, the future. What does it mean to be Amochofsheba Tseinu, as our anthem says, to be a free people, a sovereign people in our country. Yossi, how do you understand this phenomenon?

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Well, I think that we are facing a crisis of anarchy on so many fronts. The incident in Bnei Brak is a textbook case of loss of sovereignty. And it begins most basically with the question of the draft. Now, we've been framing the draft, we meaning the Israeli public, that Israeli Jewish public, the Israeli Jewish public that wants the arrangement with the ultra Orthodox to be changed. We've been framing that as an issue of join us, be part of the defense of the Jewish people. And of course, at its core, it is that. But it is also very much a question of sovereignty. A country that can't impose, can't, for whatever reason, political reasons, because we're afraid of violence in that community that can't impose what the overwhelming majority of citizens and the army itself regards as a critical security need is a crisis of sovereignty. And I think we need to expand the dimensions of the crisis with the ultra Orthodox to really put it in that framework. Now, what happened, particularly in B' Nai Brak the other day was just a classic example of how the state institutions abrogate the most basic responsibility toward themselves as upholders of national sovereignty. So what happens? Two soldiers, as you put it, go into Bnei Barak, and what's the response of the police? The army should have coordinated with us. You don't just send two soldiers in, as you put it, to an Israeli city. You know, you have to treat Bnei Barak as if it's Janine and, you know, just laughing.

[Daniil Hartman]

And it's like it's, you know, or.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Shekhem, Nablus, you know, when Breslav or Hasidim go to pray at Joseph's tomb, you have to coordinate with the army, the police. So we need to now treat Bnei Barak as if it were Shechem. Now, the army pushed back immediately and said they actually were not going in to recruit. The police said they went in to recruit. And the assumption being that's a provocation. You send female soldiers into an ultra Orthodox neighborhood to recruit for the army, what do you expect will happen? Well, as you said in your introduction, they weren't going there to recruit. They were going to meet with those who are already recruits. But even if they were going to recruit, how dare you Israeli police, how dare you tell the army that they need your approval in order to do that? What is the meaning of sovereignty? So on that level, what we saw was a total breakdown of sovereignty. The issue here goes even deeper than that. What was the reaction of the Likud politicians, the ultra Orthodox politicians? Of course. What did they say? What they always say, it's a small fringe.

[Daniil Hartman]

That's after they condemn, they condemn, but then they undermine the condemnation by saying, it's not a problem, it's not a.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Problem because it's a fringe. And hint, hint, you shouldn't have sent in soldiers, certainly not female soldiers, because we all know that that's a provocation. But this Idea that we're dealing with a fringe phenomenon when the state has allowed the ultra orthodox politicians, government ministers, the Chief Rabbi to openly call for revolt, for ignoring the army's call up notices. The Chief Rabbi called on ultra Orthodox young men to flush the call up notices down the toilet. This is a man who gets his salary from the state. He is upholding sovereignty. And yet we have this surreal situation of those who are called upon to uphold the sovereignty of the state, actively undermining it. So it's not a small minority of rioters. Yes, the Chief Rabbi didn't go out in the streets and riot. But there's a direct line between the rioters and the Chief Rabbi's call to ignore the army's call up notices. It is all of one piece, which is the undermining of the foundations of sovereignty.

[Daniil Hartman]

Now, I want to reiterate what this chaos that is emerging. It's a chaos and a crisis of sovereignty from two different directions. One direction is there's a minority group which is pushing back against the government, and the government is saying, okay, if you push back, I'll come to this later because you're a coalition partner and I'll explain about. Because you're pushing back, I'm receding, I'm stepping away, and I'm allowing you to be sovereign over your space. You're jenine. In the case of Israeli, Arab, Palestinians, they're actually asking us to be sovereign. They're asking us to please help fight this crime. But the country's saying, I don't want to be sovereign. So here it is. In one case, a majority is pushing back against the nation's sovereignty. And in the other case, the nation itself is stepping back and saying, I really don't want to be sovereign over you. Just like Smoch says, it's you. You're not an Israeli. Just like the nation state law, which doesn't recognize that there's citizenship here for other people, you're just, you're not mine, the Minister of Israel. So there's this one case, there's a pushback in the other case. In both cases, the government is abdicating its responsibility.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Yeah, I think the problem is even deeper than that, because in the government's relationship with the Haredi and with the ultra Orthodox, there's an indulgence of the community's rejection of authority because they are needed to uphold Netanyahu's coalition. In the case of the Arab Israelis, there's an active contempt, a denial that you are part of us. You can't be Part of a Jewish state. Your Arabs, your enemies. And so the way that that's expressed, because this government doesn't yet have the legal power which it wishes it had to disenfranchise the Arab minority, it's effectively disenfranchising by rescinding the protection of sovereignty on the minority.

[Daniil Hartman]

Right. And that it comes from Smotrich and Benvirs, not by accident, because they want sovereignty over land.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Yeah, that's right. It's not sovereignty. It's not about the state, it's about the land.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's about the land. And so as long as I'm sovereign over the land, I don't want sovereignty. I don't even want you here. It's like. But it's, they don't, they're not even on their map. But that leads us I think also to one of the critical differences between the Israeli Arab, Palestinian and I'm going to call them Israeli Arab Palestinian, you're going to call them Israeli Arab and that's fine because those are the two names that they use. There isn't a consensus on that.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

And so, yeah, among themselves, amongst themselves.

[Daniil Hartman]

So we're not being politically. Between the two of us, we're covering all of that.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I always trust to be politically correct.

[Daniil Hartman]

I know that's just, that's, that's just who I am. That's just, it's not even your fault. You can't even help.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

It's just, it's just my instinct.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's your just instinct is you're such a good boy. But I think the other dimension, and I want to say, be the one to say this so that you don't get carried away with this.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Are we. Is this a Netanyahu moment?

[Daniil Hartman]

It's not even a Netanyahu moment.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I love when you attack Netanyahu. You, you free me of my responsibility.

[Daniil Hartman]

The reason why this government is not even trying to exert its sovereignty is because its primary agenda, it has two agendas. One is sovereignty at the borders. And it's true, this is a profoundly dangerous time and survival. Ministers could say anything. You know, when a minister says a statement like this, like Smotrich said today, you'd expect a prime minister who's who, you know, when they are elected, every prime minister always says, I'm going to be the prime minister of everyone. You know, like everyone. Or when Smic yesterday says Jews are going to resettle in Gaza. Now the government is in the midst of a multi stage Gaza peace plan of some form in which it has agreed to withdraw From Gaza. Maybe it has agreed not to withdraw completely until Hamas beyond the orange line, until Hamas disarms itself. But it's working in a move. And here is your minister of the third most important minister or the second most important minister in the government is saying, I don't care what the country. It's like, it's me.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

He has his own foreign policy.

[Daniil Hartman]

He has his own foreign policy.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

You know, Daniil, it's interesting because the coalition arrangement is inherently a very delicate dance. If you look at how coalition politics has played out from the beginning in this country, each ministry functions semi autonomously. Now, if you have a government that really is conscious of itself as the guardian of sovereignty, there will be some minimal red line which no ministry will cross.

[Daniil Hartman]

But you also make sure that those, and I want to speak about this later, that the most significant ministries represent the sovereign interest of the country. Now, Gallant, why was Gallant fired? Do you remember? You remember there was a Minister Gallant who was Ring, Isabella Ring. Zabella was the Minister of Defense for the first year or so of the war. He's fired. Why? The official reason, he and Netanyahu disagreed. So here it is. You have a minister explicitly undermining the foreign policy of the State of Israel and he doesn't even get a condemnation. Because the job of the ministers is not principally to enable the country to implement its policy. That's what sovereignty means. It's to hold onto a space and to govern in accordance with with your policies. The goal of this government is simply to survive. And so as long as it survives, the focus is on maintaining Netanyahu as Prime minister and the price we are paying. You use the word anarchy, chaos, it just doesn't matter. The ministers who wake up in the morning, the fundamental question is not are you a minister helping Israel run itself? Your primary issue is, are you enabling the perpetuation of this?

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

So in other words, the question of sovereignty shifts from the nation to the.

[Daniil Hartman]

Government to the government. The government wants to rule to the exclusion of all others, not to rule the country to the exclusion of all others. And in this environment, you see this anarchy. There's anarchy in the Haredi community. There's anarchy in the Israeli, Arab, Palestinian reality. Crime. And the government's response. There's anarchy in Judea and Samaria, there's anarchy in the government itself. The ministers, there's anarchy in the Attorney General because it's not only one sided. The Attorney General, one of her core jobs is to defend the government to the Supreme Court, one of her courts, she says, I'm not doing that anymore. She's just not the whole system. The Minister of defense.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I'll come to her defense, which is that when you have a situation where the government is actively sabotaging national sovereignty in so many areas, just in that one area, she's supposed to uphold the government. I accept that, you know, it is a crisis of sovereignty.

[Daniil Hartman]

I accept that. The Minister of Justice refused yesterday to state that if the Supreme Court gives a ruling, he's not committing to accept the ruling of the Supreme Court of the country. So you have this dismantling. And I have to tell you, it's a very strange experience. And to our audience, it's a strange experience. For Israelis, you don't. It's just this decay is so total and complete. And at the same time, we're trying to maintain secure borders on the outside, and the country is falling apart on the inside because there is no. There's no balabayit. What's the term? Balabayit in Hebrew? There's no one. There's no one.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

No one's in charge.

[Daniil Hartman]

No one's in charge. It's not true. They are in charge. They're in charge of dealing with Iran. That they are, or to the extent that we spoke about this, that Trump lets us be sovereign and they're in charge of trying to maintain their coalition.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I think you've hit on a really important point here, which is that in the latest iteration of the Israeli right, there has been a redefining of their responsibility for sovereignty. Their sovereignty is twofold. The physical protection of the country's sovereignty from external threat, and internally, the protection of the government from threat and the protection of the leader. That is now the definition of how the right understands sovereignty. Now, there's a tremendous irony here, Daniil, because traditionally the right has been the upholder of the integrity of the state. Think about Jabotinsky and Menachem Begin. The state and the integrity of the state. And the honor of the state was so integral to how the right saw itself.

[Daniil Hartman]

So how did this happen?

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

How did we get there? Now, obviously, one, they also critiqued the.

[Daniil Hartman]

Left as allowing chaos and anarchy and not being strong enough and not appreciating.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

We waited 2,000 years for this state, and you're treating it with disrespect. And the irony is even deeper than that because you remember Ben Gvir's election slogan in the last campaign.

[Daniil Hartman]

How do we translate that term?

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

To impose.

[Daniil Hartman]

To govern. To impose sovereignty.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

To govern. To govern. To impose the authority of government authorities.

[Daniil Hartman]

That's right.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

And Ben Grier's slogan was Mepo Barnabite, who here is the sovereign. And under Ben Grier, we are losing whole parts of sovereign Israel. And so why, how did this happen now? One reason is what you touched on earlier, which was the part of the right that really cares about the land more than the state. The land of Israel, because it has sanctity and the state is a secular entity. The land of Israel has greater weight than the state of Israel. I had a friend, Arthur Cohen, who was a writer and a Jewish philosopher in New York. He died many years ago, and he used to write me letters. This is in the 1980s, shortly after I moved to Israel. And letters, actually, you remember letters. And he would address it. My name, my address. And he would write the state of Israel. And I asked him, I said, you know, why the state of Israel? He said, I'm making a point. It's not the land of Israel. You live in the state of Israel. And I thought, what a nutmeg, you know, really? Really, Arthur? It's like, who cares? You know, the postman doesn't care. I don't care. And yet there was something in retrospect, he was right. He was right that we didn't see clearly enough the threat to the integrity of the state that was coming from the land and where we saw that in the most practical way. And this is something that we can understand perhaps best retroactively, the early years of the Gushamunim settlement movement. Gushamunim was founded in 1974. The labor government, the first government of Yitzhak Rabin and Gusha Monim, declares war on the sovereignty of the Rabin government. The Rabin government's right to determine the creation of new communities. And they begin creating facts on the ground, which is the term that they used. And that poisonous term, facts on the ground, to my mind, was the beginning of the rights that. Sabotaging itself its own deepest commitment to sovereignty.

[Daniil Hartman]

It's almost like ideology trumped sovereignty.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Daniil Hartman]

Ideology trumped it. There's one other thing. As we're coming to an end at conclusion, I'll give you the last word, though, that I wanted to add. And that is, you know, as I watch, I watch the Haredi community overturning the police cars and mobbing and attacking and these Israeli soldiers and. And even the police. And as we saw this soldier running out, she was protected by a very tall senior officer of the police, as if that's his. Like, here it is again. It's like it looked Like Derot, you know, like, because the police are the unsung heroes. Since October 7th, we always, we pray for the army and we thank them. And the police, day in and day out are saving Israeli citizens. And they're, they're true, true heroes. And this officer is literally protecting with his body this soldier.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

And they image young Israeli soldiers fleeing.

[Daniil Hartman]

Fleeing, but literally they're protecting.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Yeah.

[Daniil Hartman]

So I ask what is the haredi? What did the mob even think they're doing? Are they helping their cause? What is it that they, in their own minds, they're doing right now? And in Israel, the hatred and animosity towards them has just, if it could have increased, it just, it increased again. But I thought it was that and like what is it that they're imagining? And the reverse of that is the Israeli, Arab, Palestinian who's actually calling on the police, calling on the government to say please come. I think at issue here is the relationship between tribal identities and collective identity. Now every collective has tribes. You can use the word tribes, you can use the word groups, you can use the word denominations. There's no such thing as a single identity collective. Whether it's in government, it could be in Canada, provinces, the United States, States, it could be ethnic minorities. You always have. Every community is a community of communities. Just about immigrants come in. It always happens. It always happens. So the fact that Israel is a tribal country is self evident and we know that. And the former president of Israel in his famous speech about the four tribes of Israel, it was a lovely speech speaking about the multi identity, he just forgo thought that it's not four, it's actually 57 tribes. So it was sweet that he thought there was only four. But whatever it is, tribal identity is at the core and as you said, it's also at the core of coalition governments. Each party has a tribe. It's not just a political position, it's a tribal identity. Sometimes ethnic, sometimes religious, sometimes literally national as well. But a particular tribal identity could work within the context of a collective if there is some balance. Could I take you to the Book of numbers, chapter 32? I'm actually studying it and writing a paper on this. There's this moment when the Jewish people are about to enter into the land of Israel. The second time, the first time we told God, no, no, you took us out of Egypt to either kill us in the desert or you took us out of Egypt to kill us in the promised land. We're not buying. God has a temper tantrum, says enough. 40 years, not interested. Until all of you die, everybody dies, except for Moses and Joshua. And Moses is schlepping his people. He's already exhausted. They're about to enter into the land, and they're about to cross over because they're going from what we now know as Jordan. They're about to cross the Jordan river. And the tribe of Reuven and God come to Moses and say to him, moses, you know, I know that's the promised land. And I know it's a land filled with honey and what is it with milk and everything. It's just the best. But, you know, we're shepherds and you know this place. We're right here now on the Jordan. The pastures here are nicer. We've decided not to go in. This is going to be our promised land. You see Moses literally having a meltdown, a total meltdown. He's plotting, as we say, in total, like, am I going to have to schlep for it? Because God's not going to let me go. I have another 40 years.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I'm going to have.

[Daniil Hartman]

This is just too. He turns to says, what are you doing? And he has this famous line where he says, if your brothers and sisters are going to go to war, are you going to sit here like, what's your. Where's your responsibility? But then he continues, if you don't come in the rest of the people, you're going to break their spirit. You're going to break their spirit, and they're going to turn around again. And we've been at this. We've seen what this. But do you really want to do this to the Jewish people again? And their response to him is remarkable. They say, moses, I hear you. I hear you. You have a point. We can't break the spirit of our people. We have a responsibility to the people. But I also have a responsibility to my tribe. So this is what we're going to do. You see where we are right now? We're going to build cities for our families and for our flocks. We're going to protect our claim because this is where we're going to live. And then we are going to march with the rest of the Jewish people, the rest of the children of Israel. We will be chalutzim, meaning we will be first to battle, and we will only return home. Our armies, our male soldiers, will only return home after all of Israel inherits the land. And Moses, who's not a compromising guy, that's like, not what prophets usually do. They have the truth. They don't know compromise. He Says, oh, okay, you need this. I hear you. You're trying to tell me there's a different balance between tribal and collective needs than I assume. Got you. My agenda is to make sure that your tribal needs don't undermine the communal needs. But if you find a way to balance it, then we're good. And so this model says that the collective can't undermine the legitimate needs of the tribe, and the tribe has to understand that it is part of a collective and it has a responsibility. Part of the breakdown, this chaos, this lack of sovereignty, is that the whole system is falling apart. First, it falls apart on the tribal level. The tribal level doesn't trust that the government has any agenda or is trying to protect them, or they believe that as sovereignty is breaking down, their only responsibility is to look out for themselves. And the government is not demanding of them to stand up. It's not demanding of them to say, I understand your needs, but where do your needs fit within the larger collective needs? This is the conversation it can't have with the ultra Orthodox, by the way. It's never had it either with Israeli Arab, Palestinians at a mature level saying, what's your role in the society? And so we say, listen, you don't have a role. I don't care about you. So everybody is just pulling. And what you have here is the Jewish state is fighting to maintain its sovereignty over its borders and its land. And inside, in the last X number of years, the tribes are pulling apart and the country is rescinding its sovereignty in the homeland of the Jewish people. Any thoughts, last reflections on this anarchic moment, as you called it?

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

I think that's a beautiful lens through which to try to unpack this moment. Our situation in some ways is reversed. Not only don't we have a Moses, but our leader is encouraging separatism. And my complaint is not with the Haredim. It isn't even with. Well, I mean, smartrich is part of the government.

[Daniil Hartman]

But he's not your primary problem.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

No, no. My problem really is with the top leadership in this country and the abrogation of the responsibility of sovereignty. And I think that the more we were unpacking this, the more it became clear to me that this is the issue that's going to define the next election. Are we going to return to a normative understanding of national sovereignty, or are we going to allow the Right's new reinterpretation, distorted understanding of sovereignty to become the new Israeli norm? That, for me, is the fundamental issue that we're going to be deciding.

[Daniil Hartman]

Well, said my friend Yassi. A pleasure to be with you.

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

Truly a pleasure.

[Alana Steinhein]

What are we supposed to do and say and be during this time?

[Daniil Hartman]

Judaism has so much complexity to it and so many layers to it that.

[Daniel Goodman]

No one layer stands by itself.

[Daniil Hartman]

What you have is Jews who for.

[Unidentified Shalom Hartman Institute Staff Member]

The very first time feel like their.

[Alana Steinhein]

Value system is out of sync with the broader sector. I'm your host Alana Steinhein. Welcome to Texting irl, where we wrestle with the dilemmas of Jewish life through the lens of classical and modern Torah texts. I am so fortunate that I have a friend and a colleague who I can talk to Jacob Feinspan, Diana Ginsberg, Dalia Lithwick, helping us think through these big questions.

[Daniil Hartman]

Why are you guys part of this? What calls you personally to it?

[Yossi Kleinhilevi]

What are some of the other things.

[Daniil Hartman]

That you work on? What's at stake for you?

[Alana Steinhein]

I think one of the challenges is to figure out how much failed democracy we as Jews can tolerate.

[Daniil Hartman]

We have to find opportunities to make enemies into friends.

[Alana Steinhein]

The model is so majestic in this text. Listen now to Texting irl, a podcast from the Shalom Hartman Institute, available wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Beauty of Jewish Interpretation.

[Daniil Hartman]

Exactly.

[Unidentified Shalom Hartman Institute Staff Member]

Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute. Applications open this week for Hartman's internship program for college students for the next academic year. Students can gain hands on nonprofit experience, build educational leadership skills, engage in academic research, or strengthen campus communities. For more information, click on the link in the show Notes. Last week, a number of Hartman staff attended the Jews Against Ice protest at ICE headquarters in D.C. as Yehuda Kurtzer explained recently on Identity Crisis, it is about we the people who must raise our voices in re accepting the covenant of Americanness, its promise to the rule of law, its care for its citizenry, and its hospitality to the stranger. Our staff were proud to have shown up for our neighbors alongside numerous other Jewish organizations and faith leaders in this way. To hear Yehuda speak more on this topic, listen to America Betrays the Stranger on Identity Crisis. You can find the link in the show Notes.

[Daniel Goodman]

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Sholom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Natal Friedman is our Executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Samoa. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Harman Institute, visit our [e-mail].