Mamdani

Summary

For Heaven’s Sake Podcast – “Mamdani” (October 29, 2025)

Hosts: Donniel Hartman (B) and Yossi Klein Halevi (C)
Podcast Overview:
This episode of “For Heaven’s Sake” explores the anxieties within world Jewry—especially American Jews—in the wake of New York mayoral candidate Meir Mamdani’s rise. Against the backdrop of October 7th and its aftermath, the hosts address the moral and communal imperatives of Jewish unity, the pressures on Jewish identity, and the risks posed by the normalization of anti-Israel rhetoric in mainstream politics. The theme revolves around boundaries: what actions or alliances put Jews “outside the camp,” and how should the Jewish community—both in Israel and the Diaspora—respond?

---

Main Theme

Confronting Jewish Unity and Anxiety Amid Political Shifts
The episode centers on Jewish reactions to the NYC mayoral candidacy of Meir Mamdani, who’s associated with anti-Israel rhetoric and actions perceived as making Jewish students on campus “pariahs.” Hosts Donniel and Yossi explore the emotional, moral, and historical resonance of this moment for Jews in America and Israel, paralleling previous threats—such as Jeremy Corbyn in Britain—while wrestling with the dangers of community litmus-testing and the responsibilities of Jewish leadership.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Moral Outrage at Anti-Israel Statements (00:10–01:52)

• Donniel frames condemnation of Israel on October 8th, especially suggesting Israel “deserved” October 7, as a sign of “moral corruption.”
  • Quote: “If that's where you are, there is a moral corruption that has entered into your soul. For me, this is moral corruption.” (B, 00:15)
• The hosts debate the moral and psychological impact of public statements that ignore or delegitimize Jewish suffering post-October 7th.

2. Jewish Security and Identity in New York (01:52–06:58)

• Discusses body returns by Hamas as a metaphor for ongoing trauma and manipulation; broadens into concerns about global Jewish safety and unity.
• Yossi shares his personal connection to New York and expresses deep anxiety over what the candidacy of Mamdani means for Jews.
  • Quote: “The notion that New York is about to elect as mayor someone who represents the camp that turned Jewish students on campus into pariahs is such a profound violation. It's a kind of a chorban, Donniel. It's a kind of destruction. I feel it viscerally.” (C, 00:26; repeated in expanded form, 08:22)

3. The Role and Risks of “Jewish Unity” Rallying Cries (08:40–12:03)

• Donniel expresses unease about communal “moment of crisis” appeals, which often lead to divisive litmus tests (“good Jew, bad Jew” dynamics) and alienate those who see themselves as “shunned” or on the margins.
  • Quote: “These moments always make me very nervous because, you know, as somebody who has very often been shunned in...life by parts of the Jewish community...I hate these moments.” (B, 11:15)

4. Boundaries of Communal Belonging and Moral Red Lines (12:10–15:50)

• The hosts differentiate between necessary intra-Jewish criticism and alliances/endorsements that cross a line—especially when they deny Jewish suffering or align with those vilifying Israel to an extreme degree.
• Donniel reasserts: condemning Israel on October 8th is out of bounds, equating it to “moral corruption.”
  • Quote: “When you condemned Israel on October 8th. On October 8th, basically saying we deserved October 7th, if that's where you are, there is a moral corruption that has entered into your soul.” (B, 13:01)

5. Rabbinic Leadership and Community Divisions (15:50–22:04)

• Yossi distinguishes between rabbis choosing not to sign anti-Mamdani public letters (respecting their need to keep communities undivided) and those actively supporting Mamdani, which he sees as a breakdown of communal responsibility:
  • Quote: “Rabbis for Mamdani. For me, I feel like we have no common language. I don't even know what to say anymore. It's such a violation.” (C, 17:19)
• They reference Maimonides’ mishumad category—the one who removes themselves from communal mourning and joy—suggesting this is how certain actions can make one “beyond the pale” without losing Jewish status.

6. Historical Parallels: Jeremy Corbyn and British Jewry (25:39–28:21)

• Yossi draws a direct analogy between Mamdani and Jeremy Corbyn, noting how Corbyn’s leadership of the Labour Party opened the door to mainstream anti-Semitic tropes under cover of anti-Zionist rhetoric.
  • Quote: “What Corbyn did, it was irrelevant whether Corbyn was an anti Semite, which he was. But what Corbyn did was two things. First of all, he was a kind of a doorway through which real, genuine anti Semites entered the British mainstream.” (C, 27:21)
• The need for unified, public Jewish response in the face of such candidacies.

7. The ‘Conditionality’ of American Jewish Belonging (32:07–34:42)

• Yossi recalls the “American Jewish whisper,” describing how Jews often felt conditionally accepted—forced to downplay their identity in public. He fears that the normalization of anti-Israel, anti-Zionist sentiment is reviving this sense of precariousness.
  • Quote: “What progressive anti Zionists have been telling Jews, young Jews especially in progressive spaces, is we have no problem accepting you...on condition that you repudiate that problematic part of your identity...as soon as you introduce the idea that there's something in Jewishness that's problematic...you're reintroducing the conditionality that I grew up with.” (C, 33:32)

8. The “Own Goal” and Dangers of Political Short-Sightedness (31:15–32:11)

• The hosts explore the concept of Jews backing Mamdani as an “own goal”—a self-inflicted injury—emphasizing that accommodating hostile political camps for the sake of other (e.g., anti-Trump) priorities may ultimately fuel Jewish anxiety and marginalization.

9. Responsibility of Israel to World Jewry (34:51–37:20)

• Donniel underscores that Israel's actions profoundly impact Diaspora Jews, and calls for Israeli self-reflection about its global impact. He advocates for efforts to “detoxify” Israel’s image and policies:
  • Quote: “Israel’s toxic. How do we detoxify it? How do we rehabilitate? This is a wakeup call...if we're losing New York, there's something that we have to look at in our own behavior and in our own souls, in our own policies.” (B, 36:26)

10. Fractured Trust Within the Jewish People (37:20–41:26)

• Yossi shares his sense of “shattering of trust” with parts of progressive American Jewry; grapples with the emotional gravity of the situation.
  • Quote: “I feel that progressive American Jews are losing me. And this is a moment that I'm experiencing as a shattering of trust.” (C, 37:23)
• Donniel appeals for dialogue rather than rupture, even as he denounces certain actions and ideologies—advocating not to “walk out of the relationship” with fellow Jews:
  • Quote: “I just don't walk away from Jews. And by adding the Trump factor and the Gaza factor doesn't excuse it...But still, once I understand...there's room for me, because I just don't like to break with Jews.” (B, 39:16)

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Moral corruption over Israel condemnation:
  “When you condemned Israel on October 8th...there is a moral corruption that has entered into your soul.”
  — Donniel (B), 00:15 and 13:01

• Describing the candidacy as ‘Chorban’ (destruction):
  “The notion that New York is about to elect as mayor someone who represents the camp that turned Jewish students on campus into pariahs is such a profound violation. It’s a kind of a chorban, Donniel. It’s a kind of destruction. I feel it viscerally.”
  — Yossi (C), 00:26 and 08:22

• Litmus tests and Jewish unity:
  “The good Jew, bad Jew thing always scares me. And I never feel comfortable.”
  — Donniel (B), 11:15

• Boundary categories: the ‘mishumad’:
  “If there's a Jew who keeps all of Jewish law...but they don't mourn when the Jewish people mourn, and they don't celebrate when the Jewish people celebrate...this person is beyond the pale.”
  — Donniel (B), 21:32

• Comparing to Corbyn:
  “What Corbyn did was two things...he was a kind of a doorway through which real, genuine anti Semites entered the British mainstream.”
  — Yossi (C), 27:21

• Conditionality of Jewish belonging:
  “As soon as you introduce the idea that there’s something in Jewishness that’s problematic...you’re reintroducing the conditionality that I grew up with.”
  — Yossi (C), 33:32

• On not walking away from Jews:
  “I just don’t walk away from Jews...I just don’t want to do it.”
  — Donniel (B), 39:16

• Critique works both ways:
  “I want American Jews to understand that the critique works both ways. And I not only believe that American Jews have the right, I believe they have the responsibility to critique us if we’re really one family.”
  — Yossi (C), 39:52

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:10–01:52 – Moral boundaries after October 7/8
• 06:20–10:13 – Yossi’s personal connection to New York and the emotional resonance
• 11:15–12:10 – Aversion to unity litmus tests
• 13:01–14:20 – Condemning Israel as ‘moral abomination’
• 17:02–20:52 – Rabbinic leadership, intra-communal boundaries, and Maimonides
• 25:39–28:21 – Corbyn parallel and British Jewry’s response
• 32:07–34:42 – The “American Jewish whisper” and revival of conditional belonging
• 36:26–37:20 – Calls for Israeli self-reflection, impact on world Jewry
• 37:23–39:16 – Fractured trust with progressive American Jews
• 40:23–41:26 – Final thoughts: criticizing but not rupturing relationships

---

Episode Tone & Style

The episode balances high-level moral and intellectual analysis with raw emotional honesty. Both hosts oscillate between personal anguish and a call for communal responsibility, using wit (bantering about “own goal” and personal backgrounds), textual references (Maimonides, the Haggadah), and realpolitik concerns.

---

Conclusion

The “Mamdani” episode is a soul-searching exploration of current Jewish anxieties through the lens of New York politics, post-October 7th trauma, and global Jewish responsibility. The hosts urge against communal rupture, even as they express fear and anger at the new legitimacy afforded to voices they see as hostile. Their final plea is to criticize but not abandon each other, and to recognize how much is at stake as both Israel and American Jewry navigate uncharted, perilous waters.

Transcript

[A]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[B]

When you condemned Israel on October 8th. On October 8th, basically saying we deserved October 7th. If that's where you are, there is a moral corruption that has entered into your soul. For me, this is moral corruption.

[C]

The notion that New York is about to elect as mayor someone who represents the camp that turned Jewish students on campus into pariahs is such a profound violation. It's a kind of a chorban, Daniel. It's a kind of destruction. I feel it viscerally.

[B]

Our issue is, what does this mean for the Jewish people? What's happening to us right now? Foreign this is Daniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for heaven's sake. In cooperation with ARC Media. There are so many things on our mind right now. Today, Tuesday, in Israel, parts of a body that were returned already in October 23rd were returned today, last night, pretending as if it was a new hostage. Even Haaretz reported how we have a drone filming Hamas terrorists with a bag of something, digging a hole, burying the hole, and then calling the Red Cross and saying, we found the body. So here it is. They're keeping pieces of a body from two years ago.

[C]

So are they doing this to torment us?

[B]

I wish I knew. I wish I knew. Is it just their schleppiness? Is it their pressure? Is it tormenting? Is it just their natural position of terror? And there's many ways to terrorize. Your natural predisposition is not to accept. It's not to be with. It's not peace, it's not to move forward, it's just to constantly terrorize.

[C]

They so much don't understand us. Yeah. They think it's going to intimidate us, terror, terrorize us. It makes us furious.

[B]

It just this. So this is on our minds. And part of what's on our mind, and we might have to talk about this, is there's all these calls for ending the ceasefire. You know, forget the Smotrich Benvir. We know they're just waiting for war, war, war. But when somebody as responsible as Naftali Bennett, who is really campaigning to be the next prime minister of Israel, comes out with an irresponsible, in my mind statement, we have to destroy Hamas. Okay, I know we have to destroy Hamas. The treaty is an attempt to dest using other means because military means weren't so available to us. But so, like. What do you mean? So this whole notion of this talking and trying to find, I don't know, be more of A Gewehr. You know, the Israeli man, the macho. I'm gonna. I'm more for killing them than Netanyahu is. Come vote for me. So all of this is in the background, but there's something more pressing that you and I felt we have to talk about today. A more pressing issue, not necessarily for Israel, even though it does include Israel, but a more pressing for the Jewish people. And that is the upcoming election in New York and the candidacy of Mamdani. And I have to tell, I feel I'm out of my comfort zone. I had to spend a lot of time normally, you know, I follow 15 news sites 20 hours a week, as our audience knows, and I'm always ready. Give me a topic. And then I just have to factor in the various information that I've been accumulating on an ongoing basis. Had to do a lot of homework because it's not natural. You know, you are more of a New Yorker than I am, but it's not. We're not living in the United States. Our job is not to comment on American politics, and we're not commenting per se on Mamdani's qualification to be mayor. That's not what our issue is. Our issue is what does this mean for the Jewish people, what's happening to us right now, and part of what we feel and we're hearing from our friends around the world, especially in the United States. And I'm not comparing exactly, because, you know, every time you compare, you're going to get into trouble. So I'm going to get into trouble. And I apologize. But October 7th was a remarkably destabilizing and frightening moment for us Israelis. And I'm not claiming that Mamdani is a terrorist. I'm not doing any of that. But it is not an exaggeration to speak about how unsettling and frightening this is. And for so many New York Jews and for Jews in North America in general. And so something's happening and we have to talk about it. And before we frame and I turn to you and ask you what's your essential feelings about it? I just want for our audience just two links in our show notes. One is our colleague Judah Kurtzer's latest podcast called An Identity Crisis, where he interviewed Howard Wolfson. Phenomenal podcast, Framing the Political Complexity. It's exactly the type of podcast that we're unqualified to do, and it's so nuanced and thoughtful, and I really appreciate Yehuda and Howard for it. And the other is a link to the YouTube video of our colleague and friend Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove's speech, which he entitled on the Record. And I have to tell you, it is just simply brilliant. You know, you always. Someone's brilliant to the extent that you agree with them, but this was not. This was just brilliant.

[C]

You are brilliant sometimes.

[B]

Sometimes. Thank you. This was just the way and the clarity. It was just an outstanding speech. And for those of you who are thinking and struggling, these are two resources that you have that I highly recommend. So let's begin. This moment of, like. I don't want to have another moment of crisis, but this moment of crisis, this moment of breaking, where does it find you? Yossi?

[C]

It hits me right in the solar plexus. In a personal way, as someone who spent almost the first 30 years of my life in New York, and I was formed in New York, on some level, I am in New York. I've lived longer, much longer, in Israel. My primary identity is Israeli. But there is no place outside of Israel that I love more, feel more deeply connected to than New York. My wife Sarah always says that when I get to New York, I'm just so happy, like a kid. I'm back home.

[B]

See, in that, you know, we're very. I have roots in America as an amorphic place. Right. Canadian, American. Well, you were Never Canadian for 11 years.

[C]

Yeah, but it wasn't core to you. I wasn't.

[B]

It wasn't. But North America, I'm very. But the only city that has claim on me is Jerusalem. So when I go to America, it's just another modality. I love being there, but it's not me.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

Well, like, for me, I have no dilemma of aliyah in that sense.

[C]

See, I. I felt really fortunate as a Jew to have as my two homes the two capitals of the Jewish people. Jerusalem is the capital of world Jewry, the state of Israel and world Jewry. But New York, in a certain way, is the capital of the Diaspora. Interesting. And I've always felt that, you know, going back and forth as I have for so many years, as have you, between JFK and Ben Gurion Airport, in some ways, that link has defined my life professionally, my commitments as a Jew and my vision of the wholeness of the Jewish people. And so the notion that New York is about to elect as mayor someone who represents the camp that turned Jewish students on campus into pariahs. And at this, the keys to Gracie Mansion are now being handed over to that camp is such a profound violation. It's a kind of a. Daniel. It's a kind of destruction. I feel it viscerally. And let's leave for a moment whether that's a rational analysis.

[B]

Let's have a rule for today. We don't have to be so careful.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You know what? Those who want to judge us for overspeaking and over comparing, you know, enjoy yourself.

[C]

So this is it.

[B]

Let's just go.

[C]

Let's let us go viscerally. This is Corbin, New York Horban.

[B]

Destruction.

[C]

Destruction of New York. When I say it hits me in the solar plexus. All of my fears, all of the sense of losing my past, you know, somebody put out again, if we're in the realm of emotion. There was something I saw on social media, and again, the comparison is absurd. But I'm speaking emotionally now. In 1939, Warsaw was 20% Jewish. Baghdad in 1948 was 35% Jewish. And went through the leading cities in Eastern Europe and the Arab world. The percentage of Jews in those cities. And of course, he was saying, don't think it can't happen here. And I saw that and I said, no, I know Jews are not going to flee New York in large numbers. Some will. Some probably will, I think more for.

[B]

His economic policy than the safety policy, probably.

[C]

But what that said to me was, you're losing something essential in your second home.

[B]

Interesting. You know, as you were speaking, what is that song? I think it's Liz Minnelli. If you can make it here, you.

[C]

Can make it anywhere.

[B]

Anywhere. If Jews don't feel good in New York, are they going to feel good anywhere in North America? Is a relevant question.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

See, I'm not a New Yorker, and in general, I have an aversion for these moments. And what is this moment? This is a moment where we are calling Jews to unite and stand together. And the reason why I have an aversion for these moments is not because I'm against Jewish unity, and quite to the contrary, is that very often these moments become litmus tests for who you are. And I know how dangerous they are. And close colleagues of mine are now being attacked simply because they didn't sign what somebody decided is the authoritative memorandum that anybody who's a lover of Israel has to sign. And if you don't sign this document, then you are now betraying Israel. It doesn't matter what you did, doesn't matter what you stand for. It doesn't matter what you've done for 30 years. It's just right now, are you signing? So these moments always make me very nervous because, you know, as somebody who has very often been shunned in his.

[C]

Life by parts of the Jewish community.

[B]

By parts of the Jewish community and for whom the essence of my ravenet is to reach the shunned or to complex. To reach those that say, this is your home, too. This is your home too. This Zionism. We have a place for you in Israel. We have a place for you in Judaism. I hate these moments. I hate these moments where somebody is going to, now we're going to test pro lamdani, anti lamdani. The good Jew, bad Jew thing always scares me. And I never feel comfortable. And I see the price, not only the price for harmony. It's like there's so many good people are judged negatively and put under pressure, and rabbis now have an impossible job in Congress. So my natural instinct is to hate these moments.

[C]

There's a but coming.

[B]

There's a but coming. But this is, I feel, a moment.

[C]

There's something you said before Daniil that I wanted to go back to, and I think it's connecting directly to this, which is that if you're a public figure and on October 8, you issue a statement that 95% condemns Israel and gives some pro forma condemnation, of course we're against killing innocent. Yeah. You don't deserve Jewish support. Right.

[B]

So, like, the but that I would have is not the litmus tests and not whether you have to sign this document or not. Like, forget about that. It's like, it's just, I hate signing these documents because they don't allow you to breathe. And whatever it is, whether you should sign or shouldn't sign, I thank those who signed, those who didn't sign. It depends, you know, if you're a loyal friend of Israel, I'm not going to judge you on the basis of whether you signed this or that. So I want. But. But his positions, as I hear them, and I'm not speaking as a New Yorker who might have a complexity about whether New York is affordable and issues of food security or internal American politics about Trump or not. There are moments, the things that he said are so outrageous. These, by the way, are boundaries in the Institute, too. When you condemned Israel on October 8th. On October 8th, basically saying we deserved October 7th, if that's where you are, there is a moral corruption that has entered into your soul. I don't even want to get into. And I think Rabbi Kosko of Elliot was very articulate, and he made a beautiful point. And when you tell Jews, you know, I'm pro Jewish, but I'm anti Israel, how Israel is an integral part of my Judaism, just like Shabbos and Kashrut and all the rest. It's like if someone said to me, you know, just give up on your Shabbos. Like, not understanding that Israel is not a political alliance, it's the identity of Jews. And as a result, he's erasing part of Jewish identity for me, the kid. And I appreciate that point. For me, this is moral corruption.

[C]

Yeah, no, no. So much.

[B]

And it's moral corruption. It's not even a safety. It doesn't even get to a safety issue. It's like here, if I'm not going to stand up against somebody who the only injustice is Jewish injustice, the only injustice in the world and everything else. He doesn't even have an opinion.

[C]

The only leader in the world that he has repeatedly said he's going to rest is the Prime Minister.

[B]

Like, and he had time. So I have no problem that someone says something. He's 36. 36 year old, 33. 33. Oh, even 36 year olds from now, the mount of wisdom of my 67th birthday from two weeks ago, everybody says stupid, you know, okay, so. But you had time to prepare. You had time to say, you know, ah, so the only thing you could change is maybe. I'm not against a global intifada. I don't want to call for a global intifada anymore. There should have been growth. You know, you always taught me, and here I'll turn back to you, that one of the fundamental features of antisemitism is to see Jews as the embodiment of. Of the evil de jure that you want to criticize Israel, go for it. You and I go for it, no problem. But we are the only evil person. That's his world. This is, for me, not only a threat to Jews. I'll leave that aside. This is a moral abomination. And this is a moment. Sign what you want to sign. But this is what I'm feeling right now. And in that sense, it's frightening when this moral abomination is kosher.

[C]

So before we unpack the possible meaning of a Meir Mamdani for New York Jews, for American Jews, for the Diaspora, for the Israeli American Jewish relationship. There are lots of facets here. You touched on some of them in your opening remarks. I want to go back to what you were saying before about litmus tests. And I certainly agree with you that any rabbi who didn't sign the rabbi's letter against Mandani should be left alone by the gatekeepers. Shouldn't be hounded.

[B]

I love the term gatekeepers because there's nothing I abhor more than these pious gatekeepers. I'm also sensing a but coming, Yossi.

[C]

Not a but, but a nuance.

[B]

Nuance, good.

[C]

You know, I've heard some of New York rabbis explain why they didn't sign, including friends of ours from the Institute. And I disagreed with them, but I respected their position. One rabbi said, look, I have all kinds of congregants and I never politicize these issues and I don't want to divide the congregants and I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome in my synagogue. That's an honorable position.

[B]

It's irrelevant. It's a position that's a very hard place to be.

[C]

Yes. I personally think there are rare moments in the history of a people, of a community where one needs to prioritize taking a stand. And I think this is one of them. But I have great respect for those rabbis in general and for that position where I make a distinction. And from what I hear you saying, I think you would agree with this. Rabbis for Mamdani. For me, I feel like we have no common language. I don't even know what to say anymore. It's such a violation.

[B]

And this is a great issue. Dig into it and then I want to come back in it because I think it's a very important point. Develop it.

[C]

I feel it's a violation. Leaving aside, and it's hard for me to do this, leaving aside my feelings as an Israeli. But you're part of a Jewish community in the Diaspora and you're looking around and you're seeing Jews are feeling increasingly different, desperate. I have not seen American Jews feel this afraid, maybe since the Pittsburgh Tree of Life massacre. That's what not October 7th. I'm seeing that sense of dread. Something terrible is coming. Maybe they're exaggerating, but not to respect your community's anguish, not to stand emotionally with your community. You disagree politically, so that's one piece of it. Another piece is when you go against the widespread feeling within the wider Jewish community about an approaching danger and you couch your political decision in Jewish rhetoric. You say, I'm for Mamdani because this is an expression of tikkun olam. What you're doing, first of all, is dignifying your position with a Jewish flavoring. But even more so, you are turning tikkun olam social justice against Jewish well being. And there's something in that that strikes me as so undignified and a violation of what we minimally expect from our fellow Jews. Disagree with me, but at least understand what I'm going through.

[B]

I very much appreciate it. And I'm 98.73% with you. And so there's not going to be a but.

[C]

And what is the one?

[B]

Because when one side articulates a Jewish position which is anti mamdani, they're almost left with no choice. In other words, there's like, is it so self evident that Judaism only has one position? So that's like. But I don't agree with myself, but like, they're sort of stuck.

[C]

Say more. Why? Why?

[B]

You know what bothers me? I saw this video of four rabbis, rabbis for Ramadan. There was so much joy. It's like you thought, today's a celebration.

[C]

No acknowledgement that so many Jews are going through this deep sense of dread.

[B]

You know, one of there's certain boundary categories in our tradition. One of those categories is the category of the mishumad, the one who is destroyed. And they're considered to be outside of. They're still Jews. Everybody stays Jews. There's no such thing as someone who loses their Jewishness. In the Jewish tradition. You can't kick people out. A Jew, once they're born or converted to Judaism, are always a Jew. You're there. But this is a category of somebody who's beyond the pale mishumad, the destroyed person.

[C]

Someone who converts.

[B]

Not necessarily. They don't convert. Doesn't have to be conversion. Sometimes it's converting and sometimes it's just leaving. Maimonides gives a definition. Actually there's a subcategory of someone who separates themselves from the community. And Maimonides says if there's a person who doesn't sin at all, like, imagine there's no sins. My father's definition of someone who doesn't sin at all is someone whose Kashrut standards are so stringent they don't even eat in their own home. That was my father. Like, he's just the perfect Jew. He's wearing seven pairs of tefillin the whole day. Tzitzis coming out of every oracle.

[C]

And he doesn't trust oral physics, doesn't.

[B]

Trust his own level of culture. This is like the perisa. If there's a Jew who keeps all of Jewish law, everything, the perfect Jew. But there's only one thing they don't do. They don't mourn when the Jewish people mourn, and they don't celebrate when the Jewish people celebrate. But rather, and this is Maimonides language, but they walk as if they are one of the non Jews of the world. This person is beyond the pale.

[C]

And that's what you felt looking at that.

[B]

And that's what you were saying. That's what I just heard you saying. And this is the problem. You're the rabbi. You're the perfect Jew. And I understand you're speaking in Jewish terms, but whether you like 50% of the Jewish people of New York are more. They're not anti. There's a pain. This is at least an issue of complexity. This is, you know, and again, that overused, over abused, obnoxious term complex. Because there's certain things that I don't think always. There's moments which aren't complex. And I believe that the level of vilification of Israel, of the mayoral candidate Mamdani is a moral corruption. And far be it from me, you know, criticize Israel from now to kingdom come. Hate Netanyahu from now to kingdom come. Some of my best friends hate Netanyahu. They even are sometimes on podcasts with me. Whatever it is, want to distance yourself from Israel until the government change. All of the above. Call Israel genocidal in its war in Gaza in February. All of the above. But the level of obsession with Israel as the great evil of the world, it's morally corrupt. And so that's why Jews are so upset we're about this corruption is. We don't know. It might be unleashed on us. It might not be. It might be mitigated. Maybe collecting the garbage in New York and dealing with crime are just going to exhaust him and he's not going to have time. But to pretend as if this is not an issue and just to go, really good point. It's just like this is not the time to sell it.

[C]

I love your father's definition of the evil child at the Passover Seder. And he said that the definition of heresy, of Jewish heresy is not. I don't believe in God. I don't believe that the Torah is from Sinai. It's what the evil child says, you and not me, that's separate.

[B]

And the word actually in there is remarkable. We are the only religious tradition that uses these terms, the evil child. Since they have separated themselves from the community. The Haggadah says they are a heretic. In the essence, they're called a heretic. They're not called a sinner. They're not called. They are a heretic. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, monotheistic traditions which put the faith in God at the center of their revolution. Heresy in the Jewish Tradition is to separate yourself from the Jewish people. Again, I accept 50% of the Jews are going to vote for Mamdani.

[C]

And no, no, no, God forbid, it's not.

[B]

I'm just quoting my rabbi, Elliot Cosgrove. Again, I don't know garnished about the facts on this level. I'm just talking conceptually a lot. It's a very serious number. So it's split. But still this is a time where if you want to support, you could come out, but you're not coming out as a rabbi, you're not coming out as. This is the great Jewish moment of this is our new Passover story. We're redeeming New York. And part of it is the new Pharaoh is Trump. And I understand that. And that's what so hard because as an Israeli, I don't have this visceral animosity and rejection of Trump in that same term. But I could. They're just, this is a very solemn, serious moment and some of that I think is crossed. Let's go. What does this mean for Israel? I understand what it means for Jews and it's. I feel so bad that our people are facing this fear.

[C]

Sunil, before, before Israel, I deal with that. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about what this could mean to American Jews. And my lens is the British Jewish experience with Jeremy Corbyn. Yesterday I met with one of the leaders of the British Jewish community who's visiting Israel. And he said when he listens to Mamdani, he hears Corbyn.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

And he said that in England, virtually the entire Jewish community, including the Haredim. And in England, the Haredim are as separatist, if not more so than the Haredim here. But they almost all came together in a last ditch attempt to defeat him. They pulled out all the stops. The late Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks broke protocol by coming out and warning, publicly warning England that this man is a clear and present danger, not only for us, but for this whole country. Chief rabbis in England never spoke that way. And the dividing line of who belongs to the Jewish community and who doesn't ran through court. And he said to me, he said, I'm looking at the New York Jewish community. He says, I don't understand, I don't understand. How can they not realize what's about to happen to them?

[B]

So what's the answer? So can I ask you a question? Because when you ask a great question, there has to be an answer. I don't want, you know what, are you ready to answer that or you.

[C]

Want to continue, I want to just say one more point.

[B]

Please, please.

[C]

Which is the debate among New York Jews about Mamdani was an irrelevant question from the perspective of the British Jewish community. The question is, is Mamdani an anti Semite? Wrong question. What Corbyn did, it was irrelevant whether Corbyn was an anti Semite, which he was. But what Corbyn did was two things. First of all, he was a kind of a doorway through which real, genuine anti Semites entered the British mainstream. The Labour Party was poisoned with rhetoric about the Rothschilds.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

All the traditional anti Semitic tropes came through anti Zionism. And Corbyn opened that door. The second thing was he had absolutely no policing over his own camp's excesses. And Corbyn provided police protection for synagogues, as Mandani has said he would do. And that's not the issue.

[B]

I hate that. By the way, if there's anything that makes me more.

[C]

Don't get started.

[B]

If I'm just gonna be nauseous right now. Is there, like, aesthetically repulsed. Oh, he's a good gu. He's going to protect me. I feel like I'm back in Persia of 2,500. Like, really? I'm not a citizen of New York. Oh, you'll protect me.

[D]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[B]

There was a clip, literally, I was.

[C]

There was a clip that I saw of a rabbi speaking at Mamdani's rally in Forest Hills yesterday, the day before, and she said, I want to thank Mamdani for promising to protect us. And, well, yeah, that's going to be his job. When have we ever thanked a mayor of any city for protecting us, for.

[B]

Protecting citizens of the cities? Like, this is a great achievement.

[C]

And of course, the irony here is that Mamdani's going to have to protect synagogues in part from his own camp.

[B]

So now the question is, what's changed? Is it just that New York Jews have just lost their brains and they don't have the certain common sense of British Jewry? Is it that there's so much at home? I think part of the reason, and if I'll. My question, I'll even answer part of it and ask you what you think about it, is there are two things that changed. One of them is Trump, the other is Israel, and the other one is Gaza. Yeah. And Howard on Yehuda's podcast mentioned this. If you don't have Trump and you don't have Gaza, you don't have Mamdani. And the Jewish community has shifted it's either Trump is a greater evil that somehow Mamdani is going to fight and I can't even, I'm not going to weigh in on that. That goes so way beyond my competency in entering into America. But at least that's the language. We need a mayor who's going to stand up to the anti Trump phenomena as the greatest danger to America and to the Jewish people makes the evil of Mamdani a lesser evil. And the other one is the fact that a large number of Jews, a growing number of Jews, are not able to separate their criticism of the war from Gaza, from a disdain of Israel. It's like, or like it's one thing to say, I think we did something wrong. We have to criticize. It's they're exiting the camp. You know, they're becoming, you know, to use my language, the troubled, uncommitted. They're troubled by Israel and now I'm going to be uncommitted. Like, to be troubled is to be Jewish, but fight for it. But this sense that they buy Mamdani's language, that the greatest evil walking the earth right now is Netanyahu. So what do you make of them?

[C]

There's something so perverse at work here because this isn't a protest against Israeli policy. It isn't even fundamentally a repudiation of Israel. It is an own goal that's going to.

[B]

An own goal, you mean a goal on yourself, on your own team, as.

[C]

We say in Hebrew.

[B]

I love it. I love it that Yossi, the New Yorker doesn't know how to speak English.

[C]

No, I, I think that is.

[B]

You think that's a term.

[C]

Your own goal, I think is, you know, I, I, I never knew it. And somebody told it to you. It just sounds to me weird, right? Own goal, you know, it could be.

[B]

I don't want to. Far be it from me listeners, if not.

[C]

You now know what I mean.

[B]

You know. You mean you score to your against yourself. Yes.

[C]

Right. For me, I'm worried about two things, and we touched on both of these things, but I want to clarify what this can mean for New York Jews. The first is this idea of normalizing hatred for Jews, even if that is not Mamdani's intent, and I'm ready to concede that it's not. He does not want to have violent anti Semitism in the streets. It's not good for him and he doesn't want to.

[B]

It's not him.

[C]

It's good. It's not him.

[B]

His antisemitism is exhausted by Israel, but.

[C]

The poison that will come through him, through his camp, and that he will be incompetent to suppress. The second thing is really what we've been kind of saying, but I want to make it explicit. And that is that what I have felt even before October 7th, but certainly since then, is that the greatest threat to American Jews is their sense of at homeness in America. And the America that I grew up in in the 1960s and 70s was a place where Jews felt conditionally accepted. They weren't endangered, they knew they were safe. But you wouldn't speak freely about Jewish issues in the public sphere. My parents, if they would say the word Jew in public, they'd lower their voices. I used to call it the American Jewish whisper when I was with the whisper. And I've noticed in recent years on campuses especially, but not only the American Jewish whisper is making a comeback. And what progressive anti Zionists have been telling Jews, young Jews, especially in progressive spaces, is we have no problem accepting you. You can be as Jewish as you want, come and make a Seder at the 10 camps. And there were Jews who did, but on condition that you repudiate that problematic part of your identity. Now, as soon as you introduce the idea that there's something in Jewishness that's problematic, that's an obstacle to your full acceptance in your social milieu, what you're doing is reintroducing the conditionality that I grew up with.

[B]

Right. Wow.

[C]

And the great victory of American Jewry in recent decades was overcoming conditionality. America said, be as Jewish or unjewish as you want. Be a Chabadnik lighting a Hanukkah Menorah in the public square in the White House, or join a gentile country club, your choice. Progressive anti Zionists reintroduced conditionality. And I am so afraid. Not even for the physical safety of New York Jews. I am afraid of that as well, but even more so for the psychological well being of young Jews who are trying to figure out their identity, their relationship between their Jewishness and the public space. This is what worries me. Interesting.

[B]

I appreciate it very much. Sometimes they create backlashes, by the way, just like sometimes it does. And so we'll have to see, but it is definitely.

[C]

So now that is the, that is the equivalent antisemitism is good for the Jews theory.

[B]

Okay, I never thought I'd hear that from you. Okay, I take it back, I take it back. I don't want to be thought that, you know, I'm a Sinai Jew, not an auspicious Jew. But the, you know, I think about this in its consequence to Israel. I don't know what this is going to mean for the future of North American Jewry. There's no doubt that it means something, but there's so many trends going and we'll have to see where it goes. And your concerns, I appreciate the logic and the content behind them and so they're definitely what we have to think about. I'm thinking about it from an Israeli perspective. I don't think Israelis understand how deep and how problematic Israel now is in the world. When we travel, we don't like it, but we call it all anti Semitic. When you can travel to New York, it's one thing you can't go to Turkey or, you know, you can't daven in the Istanbul airport without somebody, you know, attacking you, or you can't go to France or all the above, you know, the Muslim immigrants, whatever story you happen to tell yourself about Europe, Europe, New York, New York, you can't feel comfortable. I think one of the great challenges that we face and when I look at this and I always ask, so what's my responsibility? And we've started to talk about this in our I Engage seminar and we're going to start working very intensively. Israel's toxic. How do we detoxify it? How do we rehabilitate? This is a wake up call that Israelis have to understand that what you do has consequences for Jews around the world. And this sense of Jewish peoplehood that you spoke so beautifully about, this notion of that you exit the community, the rasha is somebody who separates themselves. How does our responsibility to Jews around the world obligate us here in Israel to ask what we do and what we don't do? Again, apropos even what I opened up in the intro, we're not getting into. Yeah, let's, okay, let's go back. Let's just wipe out Gaza. Like statements like that there, something has shifted. Israel is part of the problem. Even though I don't take responsibility for Mamdani's antisemitism, and I want to call it that, even though he doesn't hate Jews per se, but there's something that we have to look at and there's a lot of work that we have to do because if we're losing New York, there's something that we have to look at in our own behavior and in our own souls, in our own policies. We're now at the stage of final thoughts or comments.

[C]

Yossi, I appreciate your last comment. I'm not ready to do that right now. And in this context, I feel that we will need to ask that question, especially in terms of why are we losing so many Jews? That's a really important question. But right now, if I'm going to speak honestly and from my deepest emotional place, I feel that progressive American Jews are losing me. And this is a moment that I'm experiencing as a shattering of trust. Now, in the many, many years that I've spent on the road in American Jewry, I went almost everywhere. If you're going to invite me and you're a Jewish community and you're not explicitly anti Zionist, you're part of my conversation today. I know rabbis, and I've spoken in their synagogues, actually, who hosted Mamdani. And again, I'm not speaking rationally. I'm going full circle to your invitation at the beginning to speak emotionally. I don't feel that those are my spaces anymore.

[B]

So it's interesting. And maybe here we'll conclude that's again, the reason why I said that was quite intentional. Because if you're not ready to quote Heschel, the student who tells Heschel, I can't pray right now, my spirit's not moving me. And Heschel says, maybe it's time for you to move your spirit. My feeling is that I appreciate that we're not ready, and I appreciate what you're saying. I just don't walk away from Jews. And by adding the Trump factor and the Gaza factor doesn't excuse it, doesn't say what you're doing is okay. The celebration, as if this is not a devastating moment, is so horrific. But still, once I understand how the problems, once I say I have to work on it too, there's room for me, because I just don't like to break with Jesus.

[C]

I so much appreciate it.

[B]

I just don't want to do it.

[C]

Danil. I so much appreciate it.

[B]

Even though this one is as close as they get, I just don't want.

[C]

To say now, look, I really appreciate that. And again, see, like, I separate.

[B]

If I make a slight distinction, I separate the Jew who condemns Israel on October 8th from the Jew who votes for Mamdani. You know, like, that there's something I want to make that distinct. I appreciate it, and I think it's an important distinction.

[C]

But what I feel right now is I want American Jews to understand that the critique works both ways. And I not only believe that American Jews have the right, I believe they have the responsibility to critique us if we're really one family. And if Israel is really the center point of Jewish life, you have a responsibility. So I'm not issuing a bill of divorce. I am crying out my pain.

[B]

Good.

[C]

My disappointment.

[B]

Perfect.

[C]

My astonishment. Good that it's come really, it's come to this. This is what you're going to do. And you're going to do this, never mind to Israel, to yourselves.

[B]

I hear you. You're speechless.

[C]

Look, I'm never speechless. But you're.

[B]

I can.

[C]

As if.

[B]

As if, but. So I would just say, and here I'm going to give myself the last word. Just as I demand of Jews who fulfill their obligation to criticize Israel and not to leave, not to walk out of a relationship, not to walk out of the relationship with Israel, I want to demand of all of us at this moment, criticize supporters of Mamdani as much as you want. Let's not walk out of the relationship. This Mamdani moment is going to be a serious challenge for our people. Yossi, I so much appreciate having the chance to talk with you and to talk to a New Yorker. And we should be. Well, it's nice on the one hand, not talking about Israel, but as we're even taping this, of course we're talking.

[C]

About Israel, of course.

[B]

But I'm like, I'm wondering what did Israel decide in responding and where is this going to take us and whether we're going to have responsible politics anyway, we should just be. Well, my friends, thank you, Taney. Thank you, Yossi.

[A]

Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman institute this week. November 4th marks 30 years since the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. And we're still asking, what if the assassination had not dealt a fatal blow to Israel's fragile peace process and irrevocably shifted the course of its politics and diplomacy? Yehuda Kertzer will be speaking as part of a panel on Yitzhak Rabin 30 years later on Tuesday, November 4th at 7pm Eastern Time. Register to attend in person at the Temple Emmanuel Stryker center in New York City or for streaming at the link in the show notes. The Hartman Institute is cultivating a new generation of leaders for the Jewish community of tomorrow. We've begun a new year of the Hartman Teen Fellowship, our signature leadership program for high school sophomores, juniors and seniors. This past weekend, at their opening, Shabbaton, over 370 fellows from 32 different US states and Canadian provinces spent a weekend building pluralistic community and engaging with important Jewish questions. The week before, they attended their first virtual Beit Midrash session with Danielle Hartman, and next week they'll embark on their first trimester of online learning. We wish our teen fellows a productive year of growth and leadership.

[E]

Imagine a gap year that's not a detour but a launchpad. At the Shalom Hartman Institute's Chavuta Gap Year program, students spend a year after high school in the heart of Jerusalem immersed in serious Beit Midrash learning with Hartman's world class faculty, including leaders such as Daniel Hartman, Tal Becker and Ilana Steinheim. Blending community leadership and rigorous learning, Avuta pushes students from North America and Israel to grapple with the most significant questions facing the Jewish people and a Jewish and democratic Israel. If you're looking for a gap year where you're challenged, grounded and ready for campus and beyond, learn more and apply@sholom hartman.org Gapier.

[D]

For heaven's sake is a product of the Sholem Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter, and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Meital Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sam. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Harmon Institute, visit our [e-mail].