C (3:44)

It's not a bad imitation.

B (3:45)

I'm not even trying to imitate.

C (3:47)

I'm just listening.

B (3:47)

And I'm sitting here and I'm saying, like, hello, this is my life. What? Like, everything's going to be fine. Don't worry, everything's great. Pardon Netanyahu. Netanyahu gives Trump the Israel prize. And I'm sitting there and my life is about to unfold. 2026 is coming. And is there anything that I could learn? Because part of what's happened over the last number of months is, you know, we had a podcast on this in which we called it waiting. You know, like, we're waiting and waiting and we want clarity and we know that stage one of the 20 part plan is not finished yet. Hamas did not disarm. There's one hostage still remaining. But we're like, we're there and we know stage two is on the horizon. We know Iran is making noises, and not just noises, doing things that clearly show that the war in Iran is not over. We didn't defeat them. And there's a lot of big things going on. And I'm sitting there listening and I said, truthfully, I was entertained. I was entertained. I have to tell you that President Trump is a profoundly charming, entertaining man. But I didn't know what to make of many of the words. There were three areas which were a little clearer and we're going to concentrate on two or maybe three of them. There was some disagreement about The West Bank. And we know that, that the administration is uncomfortable with Israel on its treatment of the Palestinian Authority. It's dealing with settler violence and on the expansion of settlements. But in this ceremony, that was not to be talked about, that was all left for tomorrow. And President Trump didn't even want to say anything about the future. That's not the right time. The place that there was an extensive amount of conversation was about Hamas disarming and Iranian development of new and expanded missile forces and potentially continuing to pursue nuclear weapons. Most of the semi substantive things were on these issues, which are very close to us. And so these words, as an Israeli, as someone who's hoping for 2026, what are these words? How did they make you feel? What were you thinking?

C (6:06)

Look, first of all, in terms of what I was feeling, what I think many Israelis were feeling is we're always happy to see the President of the United States, regardless of who he is, getting along with an Israeli prime Minister, regardless of who he is. And so, you know, for.

B (6:23)

That's a dayenu. Like there is a dayenu moment in Israeli political life forever. It's been that the day. It's enough.

C (6:31)

They got along. You know, they complimented each other.

B (6:33)

They matched each other's ties. Ties, by the way.

C (6:37)

You can't ask for more than that.

B (6:39)

It's like they're buddies, you know, so.

C (6:41)

You know, on the emotional gratification level, we got what we needed. But there was something surreal as you were playing out in the messaging, in what was said, what wasn't said, and far more is unclear than has been clarified. And I think in that sense, this press conference is only. And the summit, from what we know, has only deepened this sense of confusion that we in Israel have. What is this moment? Did we win? Is this an interim? Can we proclaim victory and just walk away? Are we in Gaza permanently? Are we going to renew fighting in Gaza? What does it mean when Trump says that Hamas has to disarm? Who's going to do it? Exactly. So he talks about all of the countries who've pledged. 59, 59 countries. Not one of those countries is going to challenge Hamas. Not one.

B (7:39)

He said, by the way, every one.

C (7:40)

Of them, okay, everyone.

B (7:42)

Not one, everyone. This is part of the strange feeling.

C (7:45)

Every one of them and every Israeli knows that the reality is exactly the opposite.

B (7:50)

Exactly.

C (7:50)

So the whole conversation is surreal. And what does that mean? Are we going to be forced to disarm Hamas? Well, there certainly are forces in Israel that want this war to resume. I don't think most of the Israeli public is there by any means. For me, I just want to focus on Iran. And so I was happy that we seem to get some kind of a green light for the next stage of dealing with Iran. And I've said this before in our conversations here, that for me, the war that began on October 7th was the Israeli Iranian war war. Everything else is a sideshow, especially Gaza.

B (8:35)

Could you stay with that? Because that's a big statement. It's not a common statement. Right. So explain what you mean by that, because it's really interesting. I want to think about it. So tell me more as someone who never liked to think about Iran.

C (8:47)

All right, so look, you know, we were surrounded on almost all our borders by Iranian proxies and in Syria by actual Iranian forces. And the great victory of the last two years was that we broke the Iranian siege. But Iran is still hovering. And Iran still threatens the Middle East. It still threatens us. We're not finished by any means with Iran. So now they're talking about rebuilding or intensifying their missile delivery program. The regime that declared war on Israel's existence as its central, not just political policy, but its central theological aspiration. That regime cannot be allowed to stand. And when I think about what these last two years have been, there have been several stages in this war. The first stage is I say we broke the siege of the proxies on our borders. The second stage was directly setting back their nuclear program. And that was an extraordinary moment that we have let pass too quickly. We had uncontested sovereignty in their airspace for 12 days. We didn't lose a single plane. And think of all of the apocalyptic scenarios that I was part of saying, well, you know, it's going to be terrible. We're going to attack their nuclear facilities and we have to brace ourselves. Can be thousands of casualties on the Israeli home front. Didn't happen. We severely weakened not only Iran's nuclear program, but its credibility domestically. And look what's happening in the last days. It's barely being reported. I'm following this on social media, seeing extraordinary clips coming out of Iran. Just before I left for this conversation, I was watching clips of Iranian demonstrators kicking police and chasing them down the street. Thousands of demonstrators. I've never seen anything like that. And there was a message that the Mossad issued in Farsi, which is extraordinary and appealed to the Iranian people. This is your moment. Go out into the streets. And then they said, we are with you. Not from a distance, we're with you here right now. In the streets now, what does that mean? Is it bravado? I read it. I felt, wow, this is amazing. Are they playing games? I don't know. But something is happening or maybe happening, and I feel that this is the moment that we need to press on. And if that comes out, if that's the concrete result of the Mar A Lego summit, then really Diana, then Diano.

B (11:38)

Interesting.

C (11:39)

I don't know if it's a real reading. I don't know if A huge faultful thinking.

B (11:42)

Nobody knows.

C (11:42)

It could be.

B (11:42)

All that we know is that it's legitimate to talk about Iran as a threat. That's maybe a Dayenu, too. That's enough, too. They're not being pooh poohed. There's an issue. And again, President Trump hedged and hummed. I saw evidence because Prime Minister Netanyahu came with his intelligence briefings. He said, I saw things, but they haven't been verified yet. So it's like there is a hedging going on. And whether there is an interest in continuing to fight Iran or not, one thing is clear. It's. We're allowed to talk about it. In other words, Israel's not alone.

C (12:18)

Right.

B (12:18)

So I think that feeling is what I would take from here now. We're not alone in talking about Iran, at least whether there's somebody going to help us, whether we could do anything about it, whether it's a changing point or not.

C (12:30)

That's a great. No, no, that's a very important point. And I think in some way, that was one of the main takeaways for Israelis. I think that needs to be said.

B (12:39)

For me, there was another takeaway that was deeply troubling. And I don't want to start 2026 with a troubling moment. But Mar? A Lago emphasized the profound difference between aspirations bringing wars to conclusion and reality on the ground. And my deep hope, both from the attacks on Iran and the ceasefire in Gaza, is that we were shifting from military mode to political mode. We weren't shifting our goals. Our goals were the same. We want to make sure that there isn't a nuclear Iran. We want to make sure that Gaza is free of Hamas, of their political and military control. Those were legitimate, clear goals that, by the way, have to this day a very broad consensus. But part of what the United States did and President Trump did, and he declared this at the Knesset, and we spoke about this, is that you achieved everything you're going to achieve militarily, like you're going to bomb again what you want to send More troops in again. Now, the job of the military, as our colleague Tal Becker has taught us over and again, the job of military force is to change or limit the ability of the other side to dictate reality. And once you do that, then it's the time to begin a political process. So here it was. And I watched. You know, deep down, I had a frustration about the B2 bombing, about the remarkable sortie. I wanted three of them. I don't want one. I wanted three or four.

C (14:26)

You mean in Iran?

B (14:27)

In Iran, like you're there? But it was interesting. I said, okay, maybe the idea of this was that we were going to show Israel and the United States were going to show Iran this is what we could do. Now, what's your interest? You want us to keep on bombing? We can, but it's unnecessary. You see what we could do, We've damaged you. We could fly uncontested in the skies. We could destroy. Not destroy or limit or hinder or demolish. Use whatever term you want, depending on how close you are with President Trump, it doesn't matter what we did. We could harm you. What do you want to do? So now let's turn to a deal. And part of what we're seeing is that that didn't work.

C (15:08)

Daniil. I think we're so beyond that. And if that was the rationale, and it may well have been, then I'm even more surprised at the foolishness, because we're not at the stage anymore of testing and holding open negotiations, especially now. We're what I would call really the third stage of the war with Iran, and that is to bring the regime down. That's what we have to go for. That's what I want to see.

B (15:36)

That's what. I just don't know how to do that. And at least here I take President Trump to his word. He said, listen, I've seen a lot of demonstrations, he says, for years. I'm watching it. You know, they demonstrate and hundreds of thousands of people, and then along come the police and they kill a bunch of people. Because he said, they're really bad people. They're bad people. They kill a lot of people, and then everybody goes away. So I appreciate. I would also. I want every enemy of Israel to have regime change, and I'd love to have. I just don't know how to achieve it. But I'm not denying your aspiration.

C (16:06)

So this is it.

B (16:07)

It's an aspiration, and I'm okay with that. But I'm saying that part of what we see And I think this is part of what I, what I've learned or what I experienced as a result of the Mar? A Lago summit is that there's an assumption or an aspiration for a certain level of rationality. And then you come and you. Let's talk about Iran. In a moment we'll talk about Hamas. There is a certain inherent evil ideology that you think it has its own self interest, but its self interest aren't the same self interests that you have here.

C (16:39)

It is fair enough.

B (16:41)

Their country is, they're starving, they have no water, they have no gas, they can't have electricity. Their military is being defeated. At what point would they say, okay, let's talk, let's talk about we're going to have nuclear energy, everything. We're just not going to enrich in Iran. That's the only thing we're not going to do. And all of a sudden a country which is financially bankrupt, its people are rebelling, is spending billions of dollars to rebuild its missile forces and it's still funding Hezbollah. It's like there's an insanity.

C (17:13)

Well, so what? It's. Well, to us it seems insane, but there's an internal logic there.

B (17:19)

There is an internal logic. I accept that. I accept that. But I'm feeling there's a frustration because the second stage beyond military, doesn't seem to be apparent. And I'm troubled because I don't think there's continued military options whether it's in Iran. Okay, maybe we could bomb again. Maybe. If the United States will do more than one sort a year, I don't know what will happen. But I could imagine doing something against Iran. What does that mean? Iran's going to start bombing Israel again. There's a small little headline on the Israeli in a number of sites wondering, have we replenished all of our Arrow defense missiles? Because we all know in Israel that with all of our complete victory, we know how exposed the home front was to Iranian missile capabilities. Especially in the latter days of the 12 Day War, we saw the demolishment. Is that what we're going to go back to again? And the same thing if I just give me another minute and then please come in. Same thing with Hamas. I know Hamas signed, Hamas agreed. And as we all, you know, many people say, what's their interest? What's their interest? To disarm. Why would they agree to something that is so counter to their ideology and their interests? And the answer was because Qatar and Turkey forced them. Because without Qatar and Turkey, they, they have no existence. Well, Right now, Hamas is not disarming. There's nobody, nobody who's willing to go in now and fight our war for us. But do you think Israeli society, what would it mean if politics is not working now and we have to go back in for what, another two years?

C (18:57)

Look, we're going to.

B (18:58)

Soldiers who did 300 days have to.

C (18:59)

Do another 300 before we get to Hamas and Gaza though.

B (19:03)

You want to stay with Iran?

C (19:04)

I want to finish. I want to finish.

B (19:06)

You want to finish Iran.

C (19:07)

Okay. And that is that.

B (19:07)

I give you that.

C (19:09)

So there's, there's something you said before. There's something you said before which is really important, which is the people are hungry now, the Iranian economy is collapsing. And the clips that I saw something I haven't seen before. Now maybe Trump is right and this is going to dissipate as well. But if something is really stirring there now and we had the regime again, this time we don't bother with the nuclear forces. We go to the Revolutionary Guard bases, we go to the police spaces, we attack the internal domestic terror network. That could help embolden the people on the streets.

B (19:53)

Now, maybe you have a military plan, I'm with you.

C (19:57)

I have a plan.

B (19:57)

You have a plan. Why not? We all have plans. It's as good a plan as any. I appreciate it.

C (20:02)

And so whether it's. The point is that I'm shifting the goal. The goal is not the nuclear program. The goal isn't even hitting the missile program, hitting the regime.

B (20:13)

I appreciate the aspiration, but as you spoke about Iranian hunger, what came to mind is I as an Israeli have no appetite to continue a military war with Iran again. I don't have an appetite to be subjected to massive, massive missiles. Now maybe I'm being self defeatist, I accept that. But if we're talking about where Israelis.

C (20:37)

Are, that's an important point.

B (20:38)

We haven't rebuilt the buildings, the hospital in Beersheva. The government, if it wasn't for a donor who gave 100 million, it's gonna take. The government hasn't even funded the rebuilding of the hospital. So like, are we really, you know, what if we have to. Yossi, we're gonna do it. I appreciate that.

C (20:53)

But you know, you know, what we're calling. You're right, and I'll make the point even more strongly is what we're going to see from the anti Netanyahu camp, from our friends, is accusing Netanyahu of going to war to try to deflect domestic attention away from Qatar Gate and all the other Scandals.

B (21:15)

Could we agree with the two of us now? Can we at least agree that I don't believe that Hamas and Iran's continuing pursuit of armed conflict is at all Netanyahu's responsibility? He hasn't caused it, he hasn't advocated it. The failure of not moving to stage two is not Israel's fault. Could we just remove whether we like Netanyahu or not, this problem is not a political factor.

C (21:45)

No, no, but what I'm saying here is that not only is the Israeli public not in the mood for the next stage of a war, they'll interpret that. But many people in this country won't consider that legitimate. Let's say that Netanyahu is playing politics. And I'm seeing it already in the conversation in those circles. And that worries me because even if it's true, and I don't put it past Netanyahu to do that, I believe he would do it. But in the case of Iran, there's a convergence of interests, his personal interest and the national interest.

B (22:20)

Could we. I hear you. Could we move to my favorite subject?

C (22:24)

No.

B (22:24)

Gaza.

C (22:26)

Because like, for me, I'm just getting going. You're just getting going.

B (22:30)

I appreciate that Iran is an existential danger to Israel. I find Gaza a spiritual danger to Israel.

C (22:38)

Okay.

B (22:39)

And so I'd even say it's just, it's something about our soul. And so here it is. Hamas, I think. Listen, President Trump again here. I'll take him at his word. Israel fulfilled its side of the deal. You know, we're now, we moved, we've done, we've done what we needed to do. We withdrew. We don't have to withdraw all our forces out of Gaza until Hamas disarms. Whether they're going to want us to or not is another question. We'll find that out. At least for now. Nobody's pressing. Hamas is not disarming. What does that mean? And we don't have anybody who's disarming them now. Again, there's interesting reports the Palestinian Authority is beginning to prepare forces in Jericho. There are trainings going on right now in Jericho to prepare forces to be able to police in Gaza.

C (23:27)

Maybe they're the ones who have to take.

B (23:28)

I know, but our problem is our government is putting a veto on them. There's nobody else. And then what does that mean as we're going into 2026? Are our families going to get draft notices again? Is it going to be another. This is not a six day, three week, even three month operation. If after two years we're still discovering just yesterday, because of the ra, the massive rainfalls, we discovered this huge tunnel 800 meters from the border. And if it wasn't for the rain, this is after, what, 200 plus days? Are we going to go back? Is this just a repetition? And even right wing commentators in Israeli media are saying, have we really achieved everything that we could achieve militarily? But if there isn't another option, then what do you do as we move forward? And some of this frustration of the lack of a political horizon. And I'm not blaming Bibi for this. I'm just catching. If I could fetch for a minute.

C (24:24)

Go for it.

B (24:25)

No, it's just here it is. The second stage of victory is more elusive. And I felt that in the celebration at Mar A Lago, you know what I felt? I felt it was a joke. I felt it wasn't serious. I know Witkoff and Kushner are serious people and I know there's going to be serious things behind the scenes going on and there, there's going to be disagreements and pushes and pulls, but I felt there was just, it was, it was like, you know, everything's going to be great. We have it all worked out and we know. Like, as I was speaking to some right wing friends and yes, I do have right wing friends, some of my best friends are right wing. Like they were watching it again. Okay, another. Oh, that was a. I love that declaration. If Hamas doesn't disarm, there's going to be hell to pay. Whoa. I was really moved by that and the gap between the words and the reality. And I think Mar a Lago in many ways symbolizes the place we're in right now. And that is war is not really a viable option to the same degree, after two years. There are limits to our ability to be Sparta nation. There's real limits and we have to come to terms with them. There are real limits. There's limits to what people could do. Maybe they shouldn't apply to Iran. I accept that. Yes. No, I'm fearful. I'm aware that.

C (25:43)

Well, you were reading my mind right now, because I do make a clear distinction, again, between Gaza as a sideshow without minimizing the horror of having a Hamas regime on our border. It's still a sideshow in comparison to the existential threat of Iran. Hamas is not an existential threat. Iran is.

B (26:04)

So then maybe you're saying, if this is the status quo in Gaza, let it be the status quo. Let Israel in the area that it controls in Gaza, build. Stage two is going to take years. Maybe what we do is where Hamas is regaining control. Let him regain control. Let us build the most beautiful areas for Gazans under Israeli control. Don't do anything in that area. Maybe there is a status quo that you're willing to accept and maybe that's what we have to understand.

C (26:32)

I would live with that. But when you said maybe we should be building in the areas of Gaza that we control, my immediate fear was the far right now they have no.

B (26:44)

Building but I know what you mean. Oh thank you for the correction, you saved me.

C (26:50)

But there are, there are significant forces in Israel. According to polls, at least 30% support rebuilding the settlements. There are continuous attempts to cross the border and make demonstrative state.

B (27:03)

When I was saying rebuilding I'm talking about rebuilding the Rafiyah. Yes, we're building.

C (27:08)

They want to rebuild the settlement.

B (27:09)

I understand. So I was talking about let's rebuild for Gazans what we can rebuild and we have to accept that the issue.

C (27:16)

We'Re not going to do it this.

B (27:17)

Government but it's happening by the way. It's not even being done by we are being given the bill to clear out the rubble.

C (27:24)

Well I feel that to me is.

B (27:26)

Outrageous but we that's interesting and we agreed to it just so you should know but or at least so it seems as it was reported what's happening on the ground by the way, no one's telling us there's things happening and there's sort of this cloud which we don't know but here this is too big a topic for us to talk about today. Our time is coming to a conclusion. But what the impact of the west bank or Judea and Samaria has and what movement is going to be done there is like to the extent to which Gaza could be a status quo is I believe only possible if the West Bank, Judea and Samaria is not a status quo.

C (28:05)

That's a great insight. I really like that and that's a good segue with question for you. What are you hoping for in 2026?

B (28:15)

I'm hoping that some of my aspirations come true. I don't even want all of them anymore.

C (28:20)

I just, I just give me two, two aspirations. Two.

B (28:24)

First of all, as many Israelis on the liberal side, it's not even on the political left or center or whatever. Many Israelis on the liberal democratic, liberal Jew are hoping for a change in government and it's not a change that discounts the Likud. It just discounts a coalition of anti liberal forces merging together similar to this government which is antithetical to everything that I hope for for my country. That's part of what I hope for. And the other part is that I hope my country could begin to start asking itself a little bit, who do we want to be? Not even who we want to be, who should we be? And I appreciate that to do so in this cloud of Iran, an ongoing status quo in Gaza. I realize it's hard and I felt like for many Israelis as we watched this, it was just such a bizarre theater that maybe you just, you're living in this mythic Hasidic village of Helm and you just. So all you could do is just get up in the morning and hope for, you know, wait to the elections and then maybe you'll have a government that just is for the people, not just by the people. And maybe that's enough. I want for the next year some of my aspirations. I'm going to work like we always do. You, Yossi, I. We're going to work and we're going to fight and we're going to push and we're going to talk. But the thing that I learned from Mar A Lago is that I have to have much more patience because the gap between reality and words, between reality and aspirations is still great. Do you want to end with your aspirations?

C (30:04)

So I'm hoping that in 2026, Prime Minister Netanyahu will become who he thinks he is, which is the Israeli Churchill. And I mean it in two ways. Two ways, Two ways. The first is that he's the one who, just as Churchill saved England from existential threat, saves Israel from existential threat. And he completes this 20 year process that he began where he targeted, he identified Iran as an existential threat. And he worked all these years toward defeating this regime and that in 2026, he actually brings that to fruition. I also mean that he become the Israeli Churchill in a second sense, which is in 1945, soon as World War II ended, there was an election in England. The British people said to Churchill, thank you for your service, and retired him. And so I would like us to let Netanyahu go out with dignity. Let him go out as a victor, but let him go.

B (31:09)

Okay. I have nothing more to add to that. That's good enough, Yossi. That's an. I'll give you an amen. Yossi. It's a pleasure to be with you.

C (31:18)

Great to be with you. Thank you.

D (31:20)

Hi, I'm Rachel Jacoby Rosenfield, CEO of the Sholem Hartman Institute. This has been a year where so many of us have been holding our breath. But now, as we begin to exhale, we have an opportunity to choose a different kind of future, one rooted in hope, moral clarity and courageous leadership. At Hartman, that's the work we do every day. But don't just take my word for it. Here are some voices from our community. I would 100% recommend the Hartman Teen Fellowship. It's impactful, it's inspiring, and I really.

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Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute this week. The Shalom Hartman Institute shapes the leaders who will determine the future of Jewish life. At the Edward Fein Winter Student Seminar this past week In New Orleans, 109 college students learned together and imagined a more inclusive, democratic future for both Israel and North America. A future that protects all citizens, including Jews. This gathering of the newest generation of Jewish leaders could not be more timely if your high school age child or student is still looking for a gap year experience in Jerusalem that will propel them into lifelong engagement with the most significant questions facing the Jewish people. Check out Chavruta. Watch the recording of our recent virtual open house with Chavruta directors Shira bin Simon Schonfeld and current Chavruta participants. Priority applications are due today, December 30th. The final application deadline is January 30th. Learn more and apply at the link in the show notes. Registration is open for a Rabbinic Torah Seminar or TS, at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem in July 2026. Our intellectually rigorous and spiritually renewing program enriches rabbis and cantors of all denominations and gives them the tools to return home and inspire their communities. Learn more and register at the link in the show Notes.

E (33:38)

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Maital Friedman is our Executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sim. Past episodes can be found@arcmedia.org where you can explore more of ARC Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.