For Heaven’s Sake: "Sparta Nation" — Episode Summary

Podcast: For Heaven’s Sake
Date: September 17, 2025
Hosts: Donniel Hartman & Yossi Klein Halevi
Produced by: Shalom Hartman Institute, Ark Media

Overview

In the episode titled "Sparta Nation," Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi discuss the profound shifts in Israeli identity amidst the ongoing war in Gaza. Anchored around Prime Minister Netanyahu’s recent declaration that Israel must become a "super Sparta"—a nation embodying perpetual militarism and self-reliance—the hosts unpack the moral, historical, and societal implications of redefining what it means to be Israeli at this turbulent moment. The episode also addresses criticism from their audience regarding Israel’s conduct in negotiations and operations, reflecting on the complexity of moral choices in wartime.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Netanyahu’s “Super Sparta” Speech and Its Significance

• Netanyahu’s Position: Netanyahu tells Israelis to "get used to" global alienation, attributing it not to Israeli actions but to factors like Islamic immigration to Europe and the social media influence of Qatar and China. He frames Israel’s new identity as a "super Sparta" (00:15, 03:59).

• Transformation of Israel’s Identity: Donniel asserts that the war is no longer just about self-defense; it's an “attempt to transform our identity as Israelis” (04:05).

• Yossi’s Analysis: Yossi frames this as a direct reversal of Netanyahu’s own legacy—he once promised a globalized, economically vibrant "Startup Nation," but now advocates for a besieged, militaristic state (11:02).

  “The greatness of Israel all these years has been the attempt to balance Athens and Sparta.”
  — Yossi Klein Halevi (00:08)

2. Historical and Moral Context: Israel as “Athens and Sparta”

• Early Israeli Outlook: Despite existential threats post-Holocaust, Israeli leaders refused to embrace a Spartan "warrior nation" identity, instead striving for cultural and economic flourishing (13:55).

• Value of Human Life: Donniel highlights Sparta’s disregard for the weak, contrasting it with Judaism’s doctrine of the sanctity of all human life (17:00).

  “When you’re Sparta or super Sparta, people are a means for the nation. And that was not our way.”
  — Donniel Hartman (17:39)

3. The Arms Industry and Economic Self-Sufficiency

• Shift in Economic Vision: Netanyahu suggests Israel must become economically self-sufficient and base its future on the arms industry, a vision Yossi finds historically and morally troubling (18:01).
• Contrast with Israel’s Past: The hosts recall Israel’s post-Independence export of agricultural expertise to developing nations as "Tikun Olam" (world repair), vastly different from the current proposed arms-export focus (18:47-19:54).

4. Collapse of Traditional Zionist Ideals

• From “A Place Among the Nations” to Isolation: The move from international legitimacy towards isolationism represents not just a political shift but the "undoing of [Netanyahu’s] own legacy" (13:40-15:05).
• Netanyahu’s Motivations: Donniel theorizes that this rhetoric is not simply driven by his coalition’s ultranationalists, but is an attempt to shore up a shrinking base as growing numbers of Israelis reject ongoing international isolation (24:05-25:16).

5. Popular Sentiments and Israeli Fatigue

• Public Alienation: Israelis face hostility and boycotts worldwide—even in cultural staples like Eurovision—which alters daily experience and fuels fatigue not just with military service but with the war’s broader toll (25:16-27:00).

• Rejection of Sparta Identity: Both hosts argue that most Israelis do not want a "Super Sparta" reality, evidenced by polling in favor of peace proposals (31:41-33:06).

  “Israelis are not going to buy it…we have been told over and over again by Netanyahu himself that the promise of Zionism is a better life for individual Jews and for the Jewish people.”
  — Yossi Klein Halevi (28:54)

6. Messianism and National Identity

• Religious Zionist Perspective: Religious Zionism traditionally linked Israel’s integration in the world to a messianic promise; thus, isolationism is anti-messianic and anti-Zionist (29:44).

• Audience Feedback: The hosts acknowledge listener critique for not addressing the morality of attempting an assassination during negotiations, revisiting their positions in light of new facts (06:01-09:38).

  “When you have a war which is no longer, I believe, a just war, it’s lost that cause.”
  — Donniel Hartman (34:30)

7. Identity Crisis and the Future

• Hope for Change: The "Sparta Nation" idea is seen as both destructive and unsustainable—Israelis are “the farthest removed from the disciplined people who are going to line up and take orders. Jews are an anarchic people. And Jews are also a people that like to live nicely.” (35:42)
• Political Consequences: The strategy alienates not only Netanyahu’s base but also his coalition’s ultranationalist right, and may spark a broader debate about Israel’s direction (37:18-37:40).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Netanyahu's Shift:

  “He did help bring about Startup Nation. It happened in large part on his watch and now he's destroying it.”
  — Yossi Klein Halevi (11:02)

• Defining Jewish Difference:

  “The notion of the image of God, of all life having value independent of its purpose...When you're Sparta or super Sparta, people are a means for the nation. And that was not our way.”
  — Donniel Hartman (17:39)

• Moral Dilemmas in War:

  “If you're going to negotiate with murderers, people who do deserve to be assassinated, you need a timeout…We're negotiating now, and we're leaving that for later. And we didn't do it.”
  — Yossi Klein Halevi (08:00)

• On Israeli Public Sentiment:

  “Israelis are the most passionate travelers…You can't travel anymore. There's nowhere.”
  — Donniel Hartman (24:59)

• Final Thoughts:

  “To create Sparta requires Spartans. Israelis are the farthest removed from the disciplined people who are going to line up and take orders. Jews are an anarchic people. And Jews are also a people that like to live nicely...We’re not Spartans. We don’t want to live in spartan conditions.”
  — Yossi Klein Halevi (35:42)

Important Timestamps

• 00:08 — Yossi: "The greatness of Israel...has been the attempt to balance Athens and Sparta."
• 03:59 — Netanyahu’s “Super Sparta” phrase highlighted.
• 11:02 — Yossi: Netanyahu is dismantling his own legacy.
• 13:55 — Yossi: “The most elemental meaning of Sparta is a nation that lives by the sword...”
• 17:00 — Discussion on value of life in Sparta vs. Judaism.
• 18:01 — Yossi: Netanyahu’s vision of economy based on arms industry.
• 24:05 — Donniel: Netanyahu’s base is shrinking.
• 25:16 — Coverage of Israeli public’s encounters with isolation and boycott.
• 31:41 — Donniel: Israeli rejection of Sparta Nation, referencing poll.
• 35:42 — Yossi: “To create Sparta requires Spartans. Israelis are the farthest removed...”
• 37:18 — Donniel: The only constituency that welcomes Sparta.

Conclusion

The “Sparta Nation” episode captures a moment of reckoning in Israel as leaders and citizens confront not just military and diplomatic crises, but a struggle over the very identity of the state. Netanyahu’s push to embrace a “super Sparta” vision is widely rejected by both the podcast’s hosts and, they argue, by the majority of Israelis—who desire security and normalcy, but not at the price of global isolation or the abandonment of Israel’s cultural and moral legacy. The evolving discourse marks a potential turning point: as the cost of perpetual conflict and detachment grows, Israelis may be ready to imagine—and demand—a different path forward, one truer to their values and aspirations.