The Hidden Challenges of Antisemitism

Summary

Podcast Summary: For Heaven’s Sake – "The Hidden Challenges of Antisemitism"

Release Date: February 11, 2026
Hosts: Donniel Hartman (A), Yossi Klein Halevi (B)
Produced By: Shalom Hartman Institute and Ark Media

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Overview:

This episode delves into the evolving and complex challenges posed by contemporary antisemitism, particularly focusing on its hidden impacts on Jewish identity, community discourse, and how both internal and external factors are reshaping the Jewish communal response. Rather than offering solutions, Donniel and Yossi aim to deepen understanding of these new realities, moving beyond discussions of physical safety to explore the subtle ways antisemitism now interacts with questions of Jewish belonging, self-perception, and intra-community dynamics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Old and New Faces of Antisemitism

• Donniel introduces the central theme: "For some, this is a new phenomenon. For others, it's just the old friend or old enemy that we've always had to deal with." (03:04)
• Unlike historical antisemitism, which was more transparently based on lies and external exclusion, contemporary forms often blend partial truths with misinformation, muddying the waters for both Jews and non-Jews.
• Yossi articulates the confusion created by this shift: "In the past, when we confronted antisemitism, it was one unequivocal, absurd lie. Today, well, what's true? What's false? And for the first time ... large numbers of Jews are confused." (01:27)

2. From External Exclusion to Internal Alienation

• Key Quote (Donniel): "Are you saying current antisemitism is trying to alienate us from our story?" (01:27, reiterated at 08:56-09:18)
• Yossi builds on this, noting that antisemitism (especially anti-Zionism) is now perceived by many as not merely an external threat but as an attack on the very core of Jewish identity and collective narrative:
  "Anti Zionism is a direct assault on the Jewish story ... declaring that part of our identity not just illegitimate, but a crime." (07:00)

3. Jewish Identity as Choice, Not Inheritance

• Donniel emphasizes a seismic change:
  "For most of Jewish history ... we inherited our Jewish identity. It's who we were. We didn't choose it ... Today ... Jewish identity is a choice that you have to make." (13:46)
• This shift means younger and especially Diaspora Jews are more susceptible to distancing themselves from Judaism when antisemitism arises—not just out of fear, but from a rationalized, consumer-like decision calculus: “Why connect?” (15:30)
• Antisemitism thus becomes not only a re-affirmation of group identity but also a reason to opt out, especially when Jewish institutions must "compete for attention." (15:30)

4. The Dilemma of Moral Complexity

• Anti-Zionism’s impact goes beyond safety to introduce a moral quandary for Jews:
  "It's not only the need to protect oneself that's going to make me distance from Jewishness. There's also the question, well, what if the critique is right or partly right?" (16:43)
• Donniel likens group affiliation to sports fandom—loyalty seen through the lens of “returns,” enhancing the sense that identity is transactional and easily subject to doubt, especially when under attack. (17:31-18:54)
• As Yossi underscores:
  "That's why I think anti Zionism is such a threat to Jewish self system, right?" (18:54)

5. Antisemitism as a Spur to Defiance (and Its Limits)

• Historical example: Soviet Jewry’s "daftka" (defiant embrace of Judaism in the face of oppression), contrasted with the more assimilated, pluralistic Western Jewish context, lacking that same clarity of external threat and thus generating a more complex, individualized response. (19:18-21:31)

6. The Dangers of Over-Focusing on Antisemitism

• Yossi worries about antisemitism becoming all-consuming in Jewish life:
  "I'm also concerned about an excessive preoccupation with threat ... it's draining our capacity for creativity, for spiritual renewal... What does it mean to be a Jew after ... the freest and most self confident Diaspora in Jewish history?" (22:34-25:19)
• He pushes for a simultaneous (“Auschwitz and Sinai”) approach—confronting hate but not letting it define the limits or the core of Jewish existence. (25:25-25:39)
  • Memorable: "Despite the antisemitism, I don't think there has ever been a more interesting time to be a Jewish than now." (24:50)

7. Internal Weaponization of Antisemitism Discourse

• Donniel names another hidden challenge:
  "I want to talk about the weaponizing of antisemitism." (25:44-26:14)
• He distinguishes the problematic Israeli usage, where antisemitism is invoked to dismiss any outside critique—including legitimate and necessary internal debate—and thus stifle moral and policy introspection:
  "We are weaponizing antisemitism to silence any, any criticism of Israel...we need mirrors...we need an open conversation." (26:16-30:24)
• Yossi agrees, but cautions that the term “weaponization” itself has loaded meanings outside Israel and suggests the need for “different language for it.” (30:24-31:14)
• Both agree that insulating Israel from external and even internal criticism reduces its creative and moral vitality. (31:33-32:41)

8. A Dual Vigilance: Abuse from Outside and Within

• Yossi summarizes the balance needed:
  "We need to be sensitive to two kinds of abuse. Abuse from the outside ... and abuse from the inside, which is abusing the right of self defense..." (33:03)

9. Open Questions and Reflections

• As the episode closes, Yossi raises the spiritual question behind the persistent existence of antisemitism and its surprising parallel with Jewish survival:
  "Why are we the most consistently hated people in history? ... there's something really strange about the Jews. And this belonging to the most consistently hated people in history is a very complicated identity." (34:09-35:31)
• Donniel ponders what this means for understanding both Jews and antisemites, leaving the discussion open for future exploration.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• Yossi Klein Halevi:
  • “In the past, when we confronted antisemitism, it was one unequivocal, absurd lie. Today ... what's true? What's false? And for the first time ... large numbers of Jews are confused.” (01:27)
  • “Anti Zionism is a direct assault on the Jewish story ... and for the first time ... large numbers of Jews are confused.” (07:00)
  • “If there's one thing that Jews, no matter how assimilated, really don't like, it's antisemitism.” (21:31)
  • “I'm also concerned about an excessive preoccupation with threat ... it's draining our capacity for creativity, for spiritual renewal.” (22:34)
  • “Despite the antisemitism, I don't think there has ever been a more interesting time to be a Jewish than now.” (24:50)
  • “We need to be sensitive to two kinds of abuse. Abuse from the outside ... and abuse from the inside, which is abusing the right of self defense...” (33:03)
• Donniel Hartman:
  • “For most of Jewish history ... we inherited our Jewish identity. It's who we were. We didn't choose it ... Today ... Jewish identity is a choice that you have to make.” (13:46)
  • “Are you saying current antisemitism is trying to alienate us from our story?” (01:27, 08:56)
  • “I want to talk about the weaponizing of antisemitism.” (25:44)
  • “We are weaponizing antisemitism to silence any, any criticism of Israel...we need mirrors...we need an open conversation.” (26:16-30:24)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:27 – Yossi on confusion caused by today’s antisemitism
• 07:00 – Anti-Zionism’s attack on the Jewish story and identity
• 13:46 – Donniel on Jewish identity as a choice in the modern era
• 16:43 – The moral complexity anti-Zionism introduces for Diaspora Jews
• 22:34 – Dangers of excessive preoccupation with antisemitism
• 24:50 – Yossi on the contemporary Jewish opportunity
• 25:44–30:24 – The problem of weaponizing antisemitism in Israeli and Jewish discourse
• 33:03 – Yossi on abuse of the antisemitism discourse from within and outside
• 34:09–35:31 – Spiritual reflection on Jewish and antisemitic persistence

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Closing Thoughts

The episode resists easy answers, instead foregrounding the urgent need for thoughtful self-examination and honest community debate. Donniel and Yossi warn listeners that new forms of antisemitism intersect with changing Jewish demographics, identity formation, and the risk that both external bigotry and internal discourse strategies could impoverish Jewish creativity, resilience, and moral agency. They invite listeners to ponder not just how to fight antisemitism, but what the struggle reveals about the Jewish story itself.

(End of summary.)

Transcript

[A]

Hi, friends. At the Sholem Hartman Institute, we believe that Jewish life thrives when we engage courageously and honestly with the moral and spiritual challenges of our time. For me, the work of building a Judaism that is intellectually vibrant, ethically serious, and infused with hope is not just a professional calling. It is a commitment to our shared future. Each summer, our Community Leadership program turns Jerusalem into a Beit Midrash of ideas and a laboratory of leadership. Learners and leaders from across the Jewish world come together to study, to question, to argue, and ultimately to imagine a more meaningful and more responsible Jewish future. This year, I invite you to join me from July 1st to July 7th to explore the ideas and values that can anchor us in this complicated moment. You'll learn with me and with my extraordinary colleagues and with a community bound together by curiosity, purpose and possibility, space is Limited. Visit sholomhartman.org CLP to reserve your spot. Hope to see you there. You are listening to an art media podcast. Are you saying current antisemitism is trying to alienate us from our story?

[B]

In the past, when we confronted antisemitism, it was one unequivocal, absurd lie. Today, well, what's true? What's false? And for the first time, I think, in the history of antisemitism, large numbers of Jews are confused, Foreign.

[A]

Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Kleine Levi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. Today is Tuesday, February 10th, and this is our podcast, for heaven's sake. In collaboration with ARC Media, our theme for today we entitled the Hidden Challenges of Anti Semitism. We Jews, and understandably, are talking all the time about antisemitism. And it's clear why we're talking about it. Because it's scary. The challenge of antisemitism is a challenge of are we going to breathe? Are we going to live? Where are we going to live? How much fear are we going to have to assimilate? Now, for many people, this conversation about antisemitism is built on the premise that something radical new has happened, that there was a golden era which has now come to an end. For others, the old professional antisemitism, people who grew up with it, like you, it's no different. It might have been hidden, but this is a constant of Jewish life.

[B]

Yeah, really? Ask the ultra Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn.

[A]

If there's a new antisemitism, if there's a new antisemitism. Or ask, you know, ask your abba, a blessed member, you know, it's so for some, this is a new phenomena. For others, it's just the old friend or old enemy that we've always had to deal with. For some, what has changed is that it's now an unbeatable phenomenon, that we have to learn how to live with it. We have to learn how to adjust. For others, their primary focus is on methods and ways in which we can combat it. And all of the above, for me, I think, are profoundly intelligent. I'm a Gamvagam person. I am a person who believes in this and this. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It's new, it's old. There's certain methods that have worked in the past and certain methods that need to be brand new. And, you know, thank God there are multiple Jewish institutions who are each one in their own way, trying to combat new strategies, old strategies. And at the end, there'll be a tapestry of responses. I'm very happy that there is a plethora of attempts and institutions working on saying, okay, this challenge, what do we do? But for us, what we wanted to talk about today, it's not the physical dangers, and we also didn't want to talk about solutions. We wanted to take a step back and ask, what are some of, in many ways, the new hidden challenges to contemporary antisemitism? And our goal today is not to come up with any solutions. See, very often when you come up with a solution and you come up with a plan, you tend to at times be like the general who's fighting yesterday's war. We want to talk about how is this changing the landscape of Jewish life? What do we do about it? That's going to take some time. That's going to take some thought. And again, here too. I'm a gam. The gam. I'm a this and this. I'm not interested in the single magic solution, but in the spirit of the Hartman Institute, first, we want to understand what's happening to us beyond fear, beyond not knowing where we're at home, beyond not knowing how do we defend ourselves. What are some of the hidden dimensions to this new phenomenon? And so that's what we're going to try to focus on. We might deviate a little bit. So I want to start with you, Yossi. You've been thinking about antisemitism your whole life. You've been thinking about it, feeling it your whole life. But there's something that's changed. Focusing inside our community. What is a central challenge that today's antisemitism poses for you?

[B]

You know, in the past, when antisemites challenged Our story declared war on our story. Jews were emotionally resilient, were able to deal with outsiders hatred for our story. So for example, Christianity, until the Holocaust saw the Jewish story as illegitimate and we no longer belonged in our story. We had corrupted our story. Islam to a lesser extent had the same judgment. And the more hateful versions of antisemitism were based on obvious lies. We knew we didn't kill Christian children and use their blood for matzah. We knew we hadn't crucified Jesus. So antisemitism actually fortified our self image. The reaction of Jews was contempt for antisemites. If anything, it made us feel superior. How could you possibly believe such idiocy? Today things are more complicated and I'm speaking specifically about one form of threat against the Jewish people. I don't want to use the word antisemitism. It's a whole conversation, anti Zionism and as we've discussed before, irrelevant, at least for me. Whether anti Zionism is a form of antisemitism, whether it's a new permutation of hatred for Jews that deserves its own category, that's something that Adam Lewis Klein, who's one of the most thoughtful people out there writing about anti Zionism today, makes a very strong case for. And so anti Zionism is a direct assault on the Jewish story, on the core, one of the core elements of the Jewish story, the 4,000 year relationship of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, the centrality of the land of Israel in our identity, in our year cycle, in our rituals. And it is declaring that part of our identity not just illegitimate, but a crime. And for the first time, I think in the history of antisemitism, large numbers of Jews are confused.

[A]

Can I just help to clarify what I think I heard you say, and I don't want to stop you, that at the first old antisemitism wanted to alienate us from their world. You're not part of me. Are you saying current antisemitism is trying to alienate us from our story?

[B]

I think that's a great way to put it. It's not.

[A]

Is that what you were saying?

[B]

No, but I like that very much. What old antisemitism really tried to do in a way was also alienate us from our story. The Bible isn't ours anymore. The Hebrew Bible belongs to Christianity. The ancient Israelites are not us, it's them, it's the church.

[A]

But you could remain a Jew. Now the anti Semitism is trying to change the nature of your Judaism.

[B]

Now the anti Zionist assault.

[A]

Let's say some of them are anti Semitists.

[B]

But okay, okay. Is trying to. Well, it is a kind of conversion. Daniil. They are trying to convert us to this progressive worldview that forces us to repudiate a core element of our identity. But what makes this threat. We're talking about the hidden dangers of antisemitism. What makes this threat so dangerous is that growing numbers of young, especially Diaspora Jews, especially Diaspora Jews in the American Diaspora, are increasingly vulnerable to this. And there are good reasons for that. One is that we have power, and power means we're not innocent anymore. And so in the past, it was so clear that they were lying about our story. Today, you need discernment. I saw something today on social media. Some anti Zionist was tweeting about how we fought this war. And it was a long list of just one lie after another. We bound children's hands and then buried them alive. Just unbelievable atrocities. We beheaded pregnant women. But then he added, and they, the Zionists bombed hospitals. Now, that's true. We did bomb hospitals with a caveat. Hamas was turning these hospitals into operational centers. But when you mix into the big lie partial truths, it disorients you. In the past, when we confronted antisemitism, it was one unequivocal, absurd lie. Today, well, what's true? What's false? 1948, there was an expulsion. Yes, but you tried to destroy the state of Israel. We accepted partition. All of those arguments.

[A]

Nobody's listening.

[B]

All of those arguments. All of those arguments. And so this assault on our story is new because it's not entirely contrived. And the result of that is profound confusion among many Jews.

[A]

Interesting. I still like the dimension of my analysis of you. And I appreciate that it's not dramatically new, but that there's a sense of. It's almost fighting from within side in a way that prior antisemitism didn't.

[B]

Say more.

[A]

When you're attacking the Jewish people's connection to Israel, it's not like you're attacking the Jewish people's connection to money. You're like, here it is. You are a money. Like Jews we know. It's like, it's not my story. You're building a world in which I.

[B]

Wish it were mine.

[A]

I'm building a world. And you're the perennial outsider.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is not about outing the Jews. It's about separating the Jews from what many Jews are saying is an integral part of who I am. And they're saying, if you want to be that, then you're A pariah. And then Jews are challenged internally in ways that antisemitism in the past didn't challenge us.

[B]

Yeah, except that I do think that this does fit an old pattern of we'll accept you if you give up your Jewishness now. Anti Zionism is not asking us to give up the totality of our church.

[A]

That's the point that I'm making.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So, okay, thank you. I want to offer there'll be a family resemblance between them. And that is there's another dimension to the challenge of antisemitism today that I think is new. Not in the sense of the motivation of the antisemite and not even in the justification or the argument legitimizing their anti Semitic hatred, but in the fact that the Jewish people aren't the same Jewish people that we used to be. For most of Jewish history, when we encountered anti Semites, we were what's now known as Jews by birth, essentially, meaning we inherited our Jewish identity. It's who we were. We didn't choose it. In many ways we were prisoners, psychological prisoners. We could always leave. But there was a self evident connection.

[B]

You could only leave by totally repudiating the whole identity.

[A]

And that's not natural. That's not natural. The default was you started the conversation that you were a Jew, you knew who you were, you were a Jew. Today in this generation, for many Jews around the world, outside of Israel, in particular in liberal countries, liberal English speaking countries, but not only Jewish, identity is a choice that you have to make. The outside world could accept you without you having to deny every aspect of who you are. In essence, much of your identities are fluid. There's such fluidity in who we are and how we see ourselves. And Jews have to choose to opt in. They don't just have to choose to opt out. And when you're standing on that line of deciding, do I opt in or do I opt out, antisemitism hits you and affects you in a completely different way. See, if I'm in and I experience antisemitism, I hunker down. Maybe it, as you said, it revalidates, I create stronger group identity. But if I'm sitting on the ridge and there's a deep consumerist dimension to identity today where you ask, what are you giving me? What do I get from it? What are the deliverables that are being provided to me? And in that environment, when antisemitism hits you, you have to ask yourself a question.

[B]

For what? For what?

[A]

Like I could become a liberal American, I could become Maybe for those who are telling us on the right that you can't be an American, it has a feature of that, that you don't belong at all. But for so many, why do it like Jews today? Every experience, every Jewish institution has to compete. Synagogues have to compete, camps have to compete, observance has to compete. You have to compete for attention. Israel has to compete. And someone asks, why connect? When you add anti Semitism into a generation of Jews who are Jews by choice, not that they are converting, but Jews by choice, because that they have to opt in, the challenge of antisemitism is going to have a deep, profound impact on whether people are going to choose for what. It tips a scale. And as a result, even though there is a post October 7th surge, or what they call the October 8th Jews, conceptually, I'm certain of this within whatever frame of certainty that I have. And nothing is certain that it's not going to last.

[B]

So I think you're raising a really important, an unspoken part of this conversation on antisemitism. And I think that going back to anti Zionism, it adds another element which reinforces your point. It's not only the need to protect oneself that's going to make me distance from Jewishness. There's also the question, well, what if the critique is right or partly right? What if this isn't such a good story? Is it worth it? Given everything I'm seeing on the news about the Jewish state, do I really want to be identified with it? So suddenly it's not only about opting out to protect. It's not only a selfish move. It has a moral dimension.

[A]

It could. And it could even just be like, you know, I moved for 11 years to New York. I lived in New Jersey from 84 to 95. And in 84, the jets, the football team, they were phenomenal. 85, they had these two pass rushers. It was exciting. So I joined. I became a Jet fan.

[B]

Like, what did I know?

[A]

I came from Israel, I became a Jet fan. And then for decades now, it's like, really, I'm stuck with this forever. Like, I'm stuck. Like, and again, I hope I'm not insulting any Jet fans. God bless you. You and Met fans together. It's like your identity becomes the UN underdog for the paranoia. But, like, at one point, it's not even that they might be right. It's just, do I want to be part of this team? It's like, consumers pick consumers. Our loyalty is built on returns. Now in Jewish identity, consumerism was Such a marginal part historically, you know, we did things that we hated. It's just what Jews do. It's what our parents tradition. Now why asking that question why? And when you add antisemitism into that, why sometimes as you said, it's going to have, you know, is this story, right? Like that's your notion that maybe there's some truth here, but even not, you.

[B]

Know, like, and that's why I think, that's why I think anti Zionism is such a threat to Jewish self system, right?

[A]

But like when I want to go to campus, like I'm looking for my, like leave me alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And antisemitism is just a burden, just like anti Zionism is. That's why Israel and Judaism for consumerists, for Jews to Jews is going to pose a new challenge which we need to think about.

[B]

So let's look at the counterargument. The most powerful example of Jews pushing back against antisemitism by embracing a Jewish identity that they knew almost nothing about was Soviet Jewry.

[A]

Correct?

[B]

And the fact that there are a million former Soviet Jews in Israel and half a million in the US and that so much of Jewish life has been enriched by this infusion from the former Soviet Union is really the story in large part of Dafka. Dafka is both a Yiddish and a borrowed Hebrew word. Or maybe Yiddish borrowed it from Hebrew and then Hebrew took it back from Yiddish. Dafka is kind of defiance, stubborn, stubbornness, stiff neck, you hate me, so I'm going to love me. You know, you don't want me to be a Jew, I'm going to be even more of a Jew. And that really is the story of the rebirth of Soviet Jewry. The parallel doesn't work with America because the Soviet Union both had an actively anti Semitic government and a heavily anti Semitic society, and America's neither. And most of the west or much of the west is not that. So the sense of reclaiming a lost Jewish identity in the face of overwhelming hatred doesn't apply.

[A]

But the Russian example, they define Jews as a nationality. You weren't Russian, right?

[B]

You were Jews, you were Jews and it appeared in your internal documents.

[A]

So like then that's an example of you are Jewish, now we hate you, what are you going to do about it?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Not do you want to be Jewish, we hate you now what choices do you want to make?

[B]

Right? So at the same time, and here's. Let's look at the case for the emergence of Western Jewish defiance in the face of Anti Semitism, because there is a case to be made for that. If there's one thing that Jews, no matter how assimilated, really don't like, it's antisemitism.

[A]

Right? And could we just stop at that profound, innovative. There's something about that. I was sitting here and saying, oh.

[B]

And you can quote me on that, Daniil. And it's almost an aesthetic offense, you know, really, after everything, you still hate us. And here I want to factor in the Shoah because for American Jews, even assimilated American Jews, the Shoah is one of the last pieces of identity that they hold onto. And there's something profoundly offensive about antisemitism after the Holocaust. And that touches a nerve among many, many Jews. And I wouldn't underestimate.

[A]

Fair enough, fair enough. Let's shift. Is there another feature of this current antisemitism that you think we need to put on the table to be aware of?

[B]

So I'm concerned not only about the impact of anti Zionism on Jewish self esteem. I'm also concerned about an excessive preoccupation with threat. And I emphasize excessive and who knows how to measure what excessive is, but of focusing on antisemitism to the point where it's draining our capacity for creativity, for spiritual renewal. And we have really important questions on the Jewish agenda. One of those questions, for me, in some ways the most important Jewish question of my life from the beginning, when I first started thinking about these questions, is what does it mean to be a Jew after, after the Holocaust, after the creation of Israel, after the emergence of the freest and most self confident Diaspora in Jewish history? What does it mean to live after the greatest Jewish nightmares and the greatest Jewish dreams were all fulfilled just before we were born? What do I do with that? How do I translate that into a Jewish identity, into my religiosity? This for me is the determining question of our generation. If we shift the focus and make the determining question antisemitism, I feel we're going back. We're going back and we're deferring to the next generation. The need to start coming up with interesting answers. Because I have to tell you, Danille, and this for me is so important, despite the antisemitism, I don't think there has ever been a more interesting time to be a Jewish than now. Maybe in the Exodus and the receiving of the Torah. But really aside from that, looking at 4,000 years, this for me is the most fascinating precisely because we are living at the time after the fulfillment of our worst nightmares. And greatest dreams. What do we do with that? And so, yes, we're living at a time when antisemitism has gone global, and it's never been global before because there was never the mechanism for that. Social media has enabled antisemitism to happen everywhere simultaneously. So we must deal with this. We have to deal with the severity of that threat, but not at the expense of avoiding the really deep questions we have to ask about who we are.

[A]

You know, it's very beautiful, as I heard you. This is your version of my father's Auschwitzer Sinai.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But very different. Very different completely, because it's not. It's for you. Auschwitz demands a Sinai.

[B]

Yes, yes, it's Auschwitz. And Sinai.

[A]

And Sinai. Of course it's an and, but it also. It's because we survived it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So beautiful. Thank you. I want to get myself into trouble.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It won't be the first time.

[A]

I don't know if I can get myself in trouble with you. But I want to put a term on the table, which is another challenge that I'm deeply concerned about. And I know the minute I put the word on the table, I'm going to aggravate people because this term itself is being used to attack the Jews. And I don't want to do it in that way. So bear with me for just a minute. I want to talk about the weaponizing of antisemitism.

[B]

You're right, it aggravates it.

[A]

And I know that the term weaponizing antisemitism has been weaponized by people who want to limit the ability of the Jewish people to criticize them, to criticize antisemitism itself, to push back. To push back to defend ourselves. And so, you know, I'm not interested in that. Like, you know, those who are trying to justify antisemitism by claiming that the Jewish critique of antisemitism is weaponizing antisemitism. That's not me. But I'm here speaking as an Israeli, and my experiences of the antisemitism discourse is very different than a Jew living outside of Israel, wherever it might be. And when a Jew experiences antisemitism and calls it antisemitism and someone just sort of wants to cancel you by saying you're weaponizing it, it has a profound destabilizing experience. Even though. And look, notice you yourself, how careful you were in our subject of anti Semitism the first half, you just used the word anti Zionism, which is interesting, because you want to be more careful in your language. But there is a weaponization of anti Semitism taking place in Israel that is of profound concern. And I believe it's a huge challenge for our society. In our tradition, there is no possibility of moral growth. There's no possibility of overcoming the inherent capacity of the human being for mediocrity. Unless you have people on the outside who watch you, who critique you, and who you see their criticism as essential to your moral and spiritual growth. When you live in a spiritual intellectual ghetto, mediocrity will prevail. There's so many hundreds of remarkable stories of how the outsider is an essential part of who we are. We just finished the portion of the week Jethro Moses needed Jethro from the outside to come and say, moses, this is not the way you run people. This is an amateurish little thing. You think everybody's going to come to you. You need a government in Israel. We are weaponizing anti Semitism to silence any, any criticism of Israel. It's not that we're silencing them. We're silencing it as an internal factor. It's not that we're having an impact on anybody. We're not using it to try to attack them. This is an inner Jewish, Israeli conversation which says, anybody who takes a stand against this government even is an anti Semite, you Yossi, you're anti Bibi. If you were outside of Israel, even if you're Jewish, doesn't matter, because Jews could be. From the perspective, any type of conversation that we've been having on an ongoing basis here, when it comes, is anti Semitic. And I love this country. I love it, and I think it's a great country. But we need mirrors. We need people talking to us. We need an open conversation. And when we shut it down by telling, this is what we do, we tell basically all Israelis. Anybody who doesn't agree with us. And Prime Minister Netanyahu literally said this word for word. All of it is all antisemitism. And the weaponization of antisemitism as an internal limitation, not on conversation, but on what we feel we have to listen to is a new challenge. And since antisemitism is now all over, we're on the bandwagon. We're just on the bandwagon. And as a result, we can be and do. And nobody, nobody could say anything to us at all.

[B]

So I think that it's an important conversation. We need a different language for it. Because when you invoke the term weaponizing antisemitism, it has a very specific connotation in the discourse outside of Israel. And I'm thinking, for example, of how the New York Times defines Mayor Mamdani's attitudes toward Israel. They call him a critic of Israel or sometimes a critic of Israeli policies, which is technically true given that Israel's main policy is survival, and he's against our survival. So. But this notion of conflating criticism of Israel's policies with denial of its right to exist is the weaponization of anti antisemitism correct.

[A]

So I gave you that from the beginning.

[B]

You did, you did. So we need a different language for that. I certainly agree with you that that's what this government has tried to do. I don't think they've done it very successfully because at least half this country is against them.

[A]

No, right, that's true.

[B]

But what they have done, they've activated their base.

[A]

They've activated their base, but they've insulated us from anybody on the outside of Israel. There is nothing outside of Israel that an Israeli has to listen to and ask, oh, what does that mean? You spoke about our creativity. So much of our creativity is in conversation with the world. And we have business creativity, but moral, spiritual creativity. We're just shutting them down. So maybe I shouldn't call it weaponizing. Maybe I should call it abuse of antisemitism as a tool not to shut down our critics, but to shut down our obligation to hear whatever term you want. We have to open that up. So I'm not married to any term. It's just. That's a term. Maybe I got it. That's where I feel it. I see them doing it. We could critique on the inside. And by the way, they do the same thing inside. But they don't call you an anti Semite. What do they call you? They call you a traitor or a leftist. A leftist. So. And that is the internal version of I don't have to listen to you.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It's like. So you don't use the term for, you know, Israeli Jews calling them that, but anybody else, it's just. So that move is a danger, especially in the context of this larger onslaught against Jews, which gives legitimacy to that language, which then shuts down your ability and obligations.

[B]

We need to be sensitive to two kinds of abuse. Abuse from the outside, which would deny us our ability to protect ourselves, and abuse from the inside, which is abusing the right of self defense or abusing.

[A]

Our legitimate concern for antisemitism. So here it is. It's a new time. It's an old foe. It's been around forever, but it's meeting a different Jewish people. It's meeting Jews who have to choose who they want to be. It's meeting a Jewish community in which the largest concentration of Jews are living with power and sovereignty. And as it meets us, whatever form it takes is going to impact us in brand new ways, which our job today is not to come up with strategies. But if this is correct, then these ideas have to serve as a blueprint for beginning to think about how do we go from here. Last thoughts.

[B]

Yossi. For me, the most interesting question of antisemitism is what it says about Jewish identity. What does it say about who we are as a people? The fact that not only is Jewish survival an extraordinary story, but so is the parallel story, our shadow story, which is the survival of antisemitism for 2,500 years. Why are we the most consistently hated people in history? And I'm not interested in the sociological reasons for that. I'm interested in the spiritual reasons. I'm interested in what does it say about who we are as a people. Now, it's too big a conversation, and I don't mean to open it up. I'm only raising it because I think it needs to be part of the mix. When we talk about antisemitism, we shouldn't neglect this piece of there's something really strange about the Jews. And this belonging to the most consistently hated people in history is a very complicated identity. And again, for me, ultimately the most important question is is what it says about who we are, ourselves.

[A]

That's another story. I don't know what to do with that yet.

[B]

We'll keep it hidden for now.

[A]

We'll keep it hidden for now. It's a Torah that you're working on and I think you have to teach. I don't know what it is I like to think about what does anti Semitism say about the anti Semite? But you're saying, is there another feature that might be a source of strength, not necessarily of challenges of strength? Yossi, it's a pleasure talking with you about antisemitism.

[B]

It always is.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

What are we supposed to do and say and be during this time?

[A]

Judaism has so much complexity to it and so many layers to it that no one layer stands by itself. What you have is Jews who for the very first time feel like their.

[C]

Value system is out of sync with the broader sector. I'm your host, Alana Steinhein. Welcome to Texting IRL where we wrestle with the dilemmas of Jewish life through the lens of classical and modern Torah texts. I am so fortunate that I have a friend and a colleague who I can talk to Jacob Feinsman, Diana Ginsberg, Dalia Lithwick, helping us think through these big questions.

[A]

Why are you guys part of this? What calls you personally to it?

[B]

What are some of the other things.

[A]

That you work on? What's at stake for you?

[B]

I think one of the challenges is to figure out how much failed development.

[C]

Democracy we as Jews can tolerate.

[A]

We have to find opportunities to make enemies into friends.

[C]

The model is so majestic in this text.

[A]

Listen now to Texting irl, a podcast from the Shalom Hartman Institute, available wherever.

[C]

You get your podcasts. Welcome to the beauty of Jewish interpretation.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

Here are some other things that are happening at the Sholom Hartman Institute over the past few weeks, the Institute in Jerusalem has been buzzing with North American learners. Fifteen Jewish professionals from communities across Canada concluded over a year of learning with Hartman's courageous Leadership Canada program that strengthens the richness of Jewish life across the entire country. The eighth Cohort of the Rabbinic Leadership Initiative spent a week focusing on Jewish holidays from an ethical lens. And this past weekend, students from a variety of gap year programs across Israel spent Shabbat together building community across difference and engaging deeply with some of the biggest ideas animating Jewish life today. You can join the learning in Israel this summer, leaders, philanthropists and learners from around the world will gather for our Community Leadership Program. Rabbis and cantors will convene at our Rabbinic Torah Seminar, and Jewish educators will study at the Wellspring Summit. For educators to learn more and apply, click the link in the Show Notes. We hope to see you there.

[E]

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Katmanaur, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein, Meital Friedman is our executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Sama. Past episodes can be [e-mail] where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video version of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the Show Notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our [e-mail].