For Heaven's Sake: Episode Summary – "The Outsiders Among Us"

Podcast Information:

• Title: For Heaven's Sake
• Hosts: Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
• Produced by: Shalom Hartman Institute and ARC Media
• Episode Title: The Outsiders Among Us
• Release Date: July 23, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode titled "The Outsiders Among Us," hosts Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi delve into the complex dynamics between Israel's Jewish majority and its diverse minority populations, with a particular focus on the Druze community and Arab citizens. The discussion is framed within the context of recent events that have brought these relationships to the forefront of national discourse.

Israel’s Demographics and Minority Populations

Danniil Hartman opens the conversation by outlining Israel's demographic evolution:

“At the founding of the state, there were 600 or 700,000 Jews in Israel. Today there's 8 million. But we have 2 million non-Jewish citizens in the state of Israel.”
[00:00]

He emphasizes that Israel was never an empty land; it has always been home to various ethnic and religious groups, which initially were the majority before Jewish immigration surged.

Spotlight on the Druze Community

The episode zeroes in on two critical newsworthy groups, starting with the Druze—a distinct minority with a unique relationship to both Israel and Islam. Daniil highlights a tragic event where:

“A thousand Druze were killed by Bedouins and maybe some of Al Julani's forces in Asweda.”
[00:00]

This attack prompted a significant response from both Israel and the Druze community, sparking a broader discussion on the Druze identity within Israeli society.

Israel’s Response to the Druze Tragedy

Yossi Klein Halevi reflects on Israel's reaction:

“We were acting as if these were Jews who were being slaughtered and we were treating the Druze as Michelano, as we say in Hebrew, as part of us.”
[04:50]

He notes that this empathetic response from a right-wing government—a group typically equating Israeli identity strictly with Jewishness—signifies a profound shift. This is reinforced by the Druze community’s significant contributions:

“The Druze have the highest percentage of serving from any community in Israel... and they have proportionally one of the highest rates of the fallen of Israel's wars.”
[06:48]

Their military service cultivates a sense of loyalty and integration that challenges traditional minority perceptions.

Nation-State Law and Its Impact

Daniil critiques the nation-state law, passed in 2018, which declared Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people but did not adequately recognize its democratic aspect:

“The Druze especially felt excluded and wounded. They said, how could you do this to us? We thought we were part of you.”
[08:13]

Yossi agrees, proposing a more inclusive articulation:

“Israel is the state of every Jew in the world, whether or not they're citizens. And Israel is the state of all of its citizens, whether or not they're Jews.”
[09:29]

They discuss aligning the nation-state law with principles of equality, akin to how other nations recognize multiple identities within their borders.

Druze Loyalty and Religious Ideology

The Druze community's loyalty is deeply intertwined with their military service:

“They are saying, 'we are'” – meaning, “We are part of Israel.”
[11:26]

Their religious ideology mandates loyalty to the state, which contrasts sharply with other minority groups whose loyalties are perceived as divided.

Comparing Druze to Arab Citizens of Israel

The conversation shifts to Arab citizens of Israel, predominantly Palestinians, highlighting the stark differences in their experiences compared to the Druze:

“They have a dual loyalty that is deemed as a flaw. The Druze dual loyalty is part of the package. We accepted it.”
[23:06]

Arab citizens often face suspicion and mistrust, exacerbated by historical policies and recent conflicts, such as the October 7th attacks.

Dual Loyalty and Its Complexities

Yossi addresses the notion of dual loyalty among Arab Israelis:

“The Palestinian national movement is at war with Israel. And as a result... dual loyalty in their case is so much more complicated.”
[25:02]

He points out the long-standing mistrust that predates current events, influenced by historical military laws and societal tensions.

Competitive Victimhood and Social Alienation

Daniil introduces the concept of "Competitive Victimhood" (CV), explaining how both communities view themselves as victims, perpetuating alienation:

“Competitive victimhood creates constant alienation, moralizing war. It perpetuates it because I can't allow you to be more a victim than me.”
[34:50]

This mentality hinders genuine empathy and understanding between the majority and minority groups.

Nation-State Law’s Clause on Global Jewish Responsibility

Daniil discusses a clause in the nation-state law that extends Israel’s responsibility to Jews worldwide:

“Israel is not only the homeland of the Jewish people, it is also responsible for Jews worldwide.”
[16:10]

This clause was notably applied to support the Druze affected by the attack, blurring the lines of traditional citizenship responsibilities and highlighting an inclusive yet complex national identity.

Hope for Inclusive Israeli Identity

Despite the challenges, Yossi expresses cautious optimism:

“For the first time in a long time, Israeli society is suddenly aware that Israeli ness is a little bit more complicated than just a Jewish story.”
[43:31]

He underscores the importance of recognizing multiple identities within the Israeli national narrative as a step toward a more inclusive society.

Political Implications and Future Outlook

The hosts touch upon the political landscape, contemplating the inclusion of minority leaders like Mansour Abbas in future governments. They discuss the potential shifts towards a more liberal and inclusive Israeli state, though acknowledging the volatility and complexity of such changes.

Conclusion

In "The Outsiders Among Us," Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi provide a nuanced exploration of minority integration in Israel, highlighting the unique position of the Druze compared to Arab citizens. The episode underscores the ongoing struggle to balance Jewish identity with democratic inclusivity, advocating for a broader understanding of what it means to be Israeli. The discussion calls for empathy, recognition, and systemic changes to bridge the divides that have long hindered societal harmony.

Notable Quotes:

• Daniil Hartman: "The Druze say, 'Here I am.' And there is an Israeli identity that if we sensed other people saying 'Here I am,' maybe we would begin to form this type of Israeli identity beyond just Jewish identity."
  [17:03]

• Yossi Klein Halevi: "Israel is the state of every Jew in the world, whether or not they're citizens. And Israel is the state of all of its citizens, whether or not they're Jews."
  [09:29]

• Daniil Hartman: "Competitive victimhood creates constant alienation, moralizing war. It perpetuates it because I can't allow you to be more a victim than me."
  [34:50]

This episode serves as a critical examination of Israel’s internal dynamics, urging listeners to reflect on the nation's identity and the place of its diverse citizens within that framework.