Yossi Klein Halevi (4:39)

I love the statistics that he just invented.

Daniil Hartman (4:43)

No, we have always known that 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot. So 99, you know, God bless. I wish. Don't get me wrong, as Jews we don't mind if that's the reality of antisemitism. But that served as a framework to in many ways legitimize the next move. Because the next part was to speak about the fact that those who are emphasizing Fuentes influence on the Republican Party, they're really doing it to try to silence anti Israel criticism and a serious debate within the Republican or Conservative or MAGA community about America's foreign policy relationships with Israel. Now he doesn't say exactly what the debate is, but the fact that is always on Israel's side or that Israel plays such a central role in American foreign policy or that it's a given that you're going to take Israel's side and it's a given that foreign aid is going to be given to Israel. Let's assume that that's the issue. Statement number one. Statement two in his speech at a Turning Point event, Vance accepts a student's question that Judaism supports the persecution of Christianity but says despite that we have certain shared interests that we have to pursue. And what is the shared interest? Freedom of access for Christians to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, as if Israel is somehow not allowing that. But Christians in the world have to make sure. And that's an issue again, strange, strange universe. And the third is a new red line that he set forth. And red lines are critical in a community. Every community builds itself not so much on what it agrees upon, but what it agrees are the red lines that you can't cross. And the red lines for Vance are are you pro America? Do you support the MAGA movement? And if you support the MAGA movement, we don't want purity tests. We don't care if you're pro Israel, anti Israel, we don't care if you're almost anti.

Yossi Klein Halevi (6:57)

We do care.

Daniil Hartman (6:57)

But you know, Fuentes, Tucker Carlson, we're not going to go through any of these issues because the most important issue is do you support make America great again? And therefore, in his camp, there is profound room for an anti Israel and maybe even borderline anti Semitic. In any event, we're not going to be excluding anybody who agrees with the fact that we have to make America great again. Now, I could give you another 15, but these three statements, widely reported, indicate that Israel has to shift. What do we do? How do we prepare? We might have three years till a vice President Vance becomes president. At that moment, things might change, who knows? But as Jews, we know it's wise to prepare. And I think we have to start thinking about it. So Yossi, in this environment, what does Israel do?

Yossi Klein Halevi (7:57)

Sultinyo I think before we grapple with that question, let's try to understand who Vance is in relation to Israel and the Jewish people. And I'm thinking about the categories of attitudes, relationships of American presidents toward Israel. So we have had in the past a President Nixon who was frankly anti Semitic but very strongly pro Israel. We also had a President Eisenhower who was philo Semitic, who liberated death camps, who was in a way the patron of the survivors in the displaced persons camps after the Holocaust and at the same time was very cold to Israel. Vance, it seems to me, is something of a hybrid between these two, the worst aspects of each of them. Now, I'm not saying that Vance is an antisemite, but Vance is an enabler of antisemitism. Vance is protecting Tucker Carlson, who is protecting Nick Fuentes and what you see happening. There's a terrific piece in the Free Press by Ellie Lake. I've given him an Israeli name, it's Eli Lake. And he writes about a very fine piece about how Vance is effectively calling for the erasure of borders around maga. And of course, he's playing on the Trump administration's defense of the inviability of borders. And he's making the case that we haven't heard this kind of rhetoric about the Zionist control or Israel's control of American foreign policy since the America first movement of Charles Lindbergh in the early 1940s. And of course, he didn't talk about the Zionists. He spoke very frankly about the Jews. The Jews are pushing us into war, and now it's Israel and the Zionists that are pushing us into war. When you think about Tucker Carlson, as far as I know, he's been very careful not to make explicitly anti Semitic statements. He is preternaturally obsessed with Israel and Israel's supposed control over American foreign policy. When he talks about America first and America looking after its own interests, he basically means one thing to make sure that there's distance, or the old Obama phraseology, distance, daylight between Israel and America. Now, the daylight is coming, as you put it, not from the left, but from very significant elements of the right. And what worries me about Vance is not that he personally is anti Semitic. It's irrelevant. In the same way that I don't care whether Mamdani is personally anti Semitic. The question is, what do you enable? What comes through the door that you open? And we know what globalize the intifada brings in, and we see what Tucker Carlson is bringing in, courtesy of Vance. So you have this very, very strange dynamic in which Vance becomes the patron, either directly or indirectly, of some of the most dangerous elements for Jews in American society and of course for Israel.

Daniil Hartman (11:42)

So now, Yossi, you've made me more nervous and I tried, but unsuccessfully, to say how accurate this is. It's still early to tell. But you said it's already. The red lights are there. Great, okay. What does that mean for Israel? How should we prepare?

Yossi Klein Halevi (12:00)

I would hope, and this is a hope against hope, that in the inner echelons of power, they're already beginning this conversation, planning for a post special relationship between Israel and America. Now, that means, first of all, looking at ways in which we ourselves begin to initiate a gradual lessening of American aid. Now, military aid really is its own category. We pay for that aid. It's a very complicated relationship which is also very beneficial for the American arms industry. But we need to look at those parts of the relationship that make us vulnerable to attacks from the America first community.

Daniil Hartman (12:52)

I'm happy you raised the aid because I wanted to raise that as well. Your distinction between military aid, because it benefits the American military industry and other aid, I think is Jews talking to ourselves again. And basically they are looking at the $30 billion, 10 year story. $30 billion. The fact that almost all of the aid is spent in America and benefits the industry, that's their own decision, but it's going through Israel. And one of the things that Israel has to decide is that have we reached the size of our economy as such that it's time for us to begin to plan to free ourselves unilaterally from this aid. You know, I don't think that England and France and Germany actually, I know, are getting aid from the United States. I know Egypt does, other countries do. But we're the by far, I believe, one of the largest, if not the second largest now Ukraine, but remember, this is the same Republican Party that is now pushing Ukraine to a ceasefire, which it does not want to accept because it is so contingent on American aid. Europe will, will not step in because Ukraine is a European issue. But this foreign aid story is alien. There's two issues that expose us a foreign aid, even if it doesn't cost Americans anything, even if it's beneficial to them, it's a story that you can't wait to win on. 30 billion foreign aid. Just stop it. And whether Israel's economy and military could begin to wean itself. We have three years, you know, like any business which has to cut its budget, we have, what, hundreds of billions of dollars budget. Now I remember Israel had a $30 billion. I've now, what is it, 200, 300 billion or so? It's time, it's time for us to say, America, we are your ally. I know the government is speaking about investments, et cetera, but the aid issue, I think, which was the unifying call, I think AIPAC existed almost solely to ensure of this aid as internal American interest. I don't think we can win on that one. Not in this make America great again universe in which you're basically saying, you know, it's an ultranationalist claim. Yossi, when you say, my boundary is are you loyal to America? That's the difference between nationalism and ultranationalism. All nation states are loyal to their country. But the boundaries aren't boundaries of loyalty. There's other boundaries. There's boundaries of morality, principles, values. In this environment, it's very dangerous. And I think we're in the closest.

Yossi Klein Halevi (15:46)

I agree with you, Daniil. I agree with you that we're dealing with an irrational critique. Because rationally, there are significant voices within both the American political establishment and military establishment that affirm what the Israeli relationship means to them in terms of intelligence, in terms of even just testing out their equipment in battle. I mean, there's a significant body of argument that has been made about why this relationship is beneficial to America. But we are, and again, you're right, we're dealing with an emotional response rather than a self interested response. And in that environment we may well have to cut our losses here. I think you and I are talking to ourselves because I don't believe, knowing what we know about how Israeli strategic planning works, we know that there's not serious thinking going on about the morning after a President Vance or his equivalent on the Democratic side. And the way that Israelis deal with emergency is we deal with it when it's staring us in the face. We deal with it when we're at the edge of the abyss. And then there's nobody better than us in dealing with emergencies. But we help bring those emergencies on by the absence of long term planning and really a responsible government. And as we say, don't get me started about this government, a responsible political system would begin having this conversation right now and it's not happening. I haven't heard anyone speaking about this.

Daniil Hartman (17:36)

I've heard just a very little bit. And my fantasy is that there are serious civil servants in the Israeli government and those civil servants are beginning some conversation. My fear is that we're going to start talking to ourselves again in this level. Oh no, it's still in their interest. Don't you remember the old calculations about how much money they saved by having Israel? That they're spending 3 billion and they're saving 100 billion a year. It's like these inner calculations, it just won't work anymore.

Yossi Klein Halevi (18:06)

So I think what we really need to do then, Daniil, is recalibrate the security nature of the relationship.

Daniil Hartman (18:13)

I believe so. You know, it's like this is a little bit above my pay grade as a rabbi. And I don't know, you know, okay, I get PhD in political philosophy, Jewish philosophy, all good. But still, I know the implications are larger, but as I'm sitting here and watching this universe, I'm trying to imagine a conversation with the United States in which Israel springs like Britain. Now, even in this environment, NATO isn't even safe, right? Europe is not even safe. So nobody is safe in a make America an exclusive American loyalty isolationist language. But still, when we could speak about shared interests, we could speak about the benefits that America gets without having to rely on aid. I don't know if it's possible, but this is at least something that I think we need to explore and bring to a minimum. But there's another issue I think that we have to race. Kyrgyoshi and I apologize to our audience, knowing fully well that this first issue, its consequences, its military consequences, economic consequences, are really beyond our pay grade. But it's at least something that we need to start talking about. We're exposed right now. And by the way, American Jews are also exposed because it also fits into if there is some anti Semitic environment. The money issue, all of this, the control issues, the dual loyalty issues, all emerge in ways that are really profoundly frightening and would be frightening for American Jews as well if Israel continues to insist or Israel's friends, the friendship comes with aid. That whole equation is at least something that I think we need to think about.

Yossi Klein Halevi (19:55)

I think we need to think about it. But there are all kinds of other elements in a security relationship besides aid. I also don't think we're looking at a total cessation of aid. I don't think that that's responsible. I don't think it's on the agenda. I don't think it's necessarily on the Vance wing of the Republican Party's agenda.

Daniil Hartman (20:16)

We don't know. We don't know.

Yossi Klein Halevi (20:17)

And so I don't think we should be too far reaching in this. You know, there have been some voices. Michael Oren wrote a piece not long ago calling for Israel to begin winding down its aid requests. And I think there's a middle ground here. There are areas in which the aid is clearly beneficial to both sides, where we're not just talking to ourselves. Maybe I see the skepticism on your.

Daniil Hartman (20:45)

Face, but we don't like we're saying no. I still want to take a little bit. I'm telling you, Yossi, and when I hear him, it's like, no, there's still some justification. I think a conversation of strategic interests independent of aid is something that we should at least be explored. This is potentially a scary world. And I think Israel, I don't know if it fully understands how scary that world is.

Yossi Klein Halevi (21:07)

I could see, by the way, now just to finish this point, I could see a situation in which we tell America, listen, we're going to gradually wean ourselves from your aid. But what we would like is a commitment that you will still stand with us, for example, in international forums, you'll still protect us.

Daniil Hartman (21:27)

All of this conversation, Yossi, is yesterday. We need to restructure the strategic relationship and America is going to decide like, what are its interests? And here this leads to the second point. To what extent is Israel willing to say that part of our foreign policy and military policy is going to be dependent on its being parallel to American strategic interests? Are we willing to recognize that our strategic interests are so intertwined that what America wants and what America's interests are in the Middle east are something that we have to take into account? And another war, another bombing, another settlement. Like, what is it that we want to do now? When you listen to these especially young audiences and you realize 40 and below, the support for Israel is literally plummeting. Also in the Republican Party, they too are concerned about the war, the killing, the image. You know, a colleague of mine has this test. He says, when you speak of Brazil, close your eyes. What do you think about? When you think of France, close your eyes. What do you think about? So it might be the carnival, it might be cheese or wine or whatever. You close your eyes and you think of England, you think of the monarchy. What defines a country? Close your eyes and you think about Israel. What do you see? You don't see oranges anymore. You don't see David fighting. You see Goliath, you see killing. You see a tank. That imagery is an imagery that we didn't have to worry about when it came to America and in the rest of the world, it concerned us. So then we protected ourselves and said, they're anti Semites in America. We said, they got our back, they got our back. And the picture of Israel as the tank, whether they're pro Christian, they're pro Israel, we were safe. But if that image is now hurting us in America, too, we have to start asking ourselves not just questions of economic aid, but we have to start asking ourselves, what are the policies that we pursue? And it's not a question of public relations, because public relations cannot whitewash policies that are problematic. They could only strengthen those policies. So this is another issue.

Yossi Klein Halevi (23:53)

So, look, there's two points. One is that you mentioned earlier that America has its foreign policy disagreements with us. It's reciprocal. We have growing issues with American foreign policy in the region. For example, America's growing closeness to Qatar and Turkey. Those are enemy countries for Israel. Those are the two main sponsors of Hamas. The reason we have a ceasefire is because the Trump administration pressured Turkey and Qatar to pressure Hamas, and that worked. But there's a price to pay, which is the empowerment of Turkey and Qatar. And so that's just one example where we are as wary of some of their foreign policy goals in the region. As they are of ours.

Daniil Hartman (24:44)

So what? So here I want to ask you now just a simple question. In the J.D. vance presidency, we're wary and you're Israel. Okay, you're wary. So what are you going to do?

Yossi Klein Halevi (24:56)

I think that here, the less dependent we are on American aid, the stronger position we'll be in.

Daniil Hartman (25:04)

That's correct. But at the end of the day, okay, the aid we're not dependent on, we're going to procure weapons from the United States. It comes down to the United nations to veto legislation. This is where we're most exposed. We're dependent and we're going to be far more dependent in the future. And our disagreements aren't going to matter as much.

Yossi Klein Halevi (25:26)

All right, so Daniil, we've been talking about really an almost apocalyptic scenario of the end of the special relationship, but maybe there still is some middle ground. To imagine us going back to the state of American Israel relations before the Six Day War is to really undo 60 years of precedent of intimacy by focusing on the admittedly rising anti Israel sentiment and for that matter, anti Semitism in significant parts of American society. You know, Vance said 99% of the Republican Party is not anti Semitic. Well, Eli Lake quotes a poll in his article saying that 25% of Republicans under the age of 50 harbor antisemitic views as opposed to 4% of Republicans over the age of 50. So we're seeing a parallel decline on the Republican side to what's been happening on the Democratic side. So yes, I don't minimize what's happening, but we still have significant reservoirs of support in America. And I see more of a struggle, an all out struggle in the next few years over Israel than a wholesale abandonment of Israel. The question is, in that environment, how should we act? And that brings me back to your original question. And here I agree with you that we really need to look ahead and try as much as possible to preempt a situation in which we find ourselves completely dependent on a hostile administration.

Daniil Hartman (27:16)

Right now, here, let me clarify. I wasn't becoming apocalyptic. I wasn't calling J.D. vance anti Israeli. I'm certainly not calling him anti Semitic. And at the beginning, at the outset, I didn't want to predict how anti Israeli this annexed Republican administration under J.D. vance might be. It's too early. There's going to be a lot of work and there's a lot of pushes and takes in the American political system. You know, we have a long time, but we wanted to prepare. I'm not proclaiming the end of the special relationship What I actually wanted to talk about is how do we sustain it? In order to sustain it, there's things that we have to change. Like we could win like here. I want to agree with JTFets. I don't know if it's 1%, 4%, who's right? How much anti. I don't believe that America's anti Semitic. If it's anti Semitic, you can't convince people. But I think there is an anti Israeli sentiment. Not among Tucker Carlson. There's a periphery that we have to ask ourselves what do we need to do to win America back again? We can't assume that they're in our back pocket. We can't assume that they're Zionists and we have this Republican protection that is changing. And in that environment, both aid and the image of Israel is something that Israel has to look at strategically. Like right now Israel and we're not going to get started on this. Israel is now resettling certain parts of Judea and Samaria. How the Saudis feel about this? You know, you talk about an American relationship with Qatar in Turkey. Each one of these impinge on the relationship. Like what support? If this is going to be condemned, what do we want to push? How do we earn a friendship? I think Israel could earn a friendship and we just have to learn how to build it on different principles. Last thoughts for the two of us. But you begin.

Yossi Klein Halevi (29:11)

Yossi, you know, so much of my anxiety about this time is going toward the Diaspora. Last week we talked about Australian Jewry and there's a subtext to this conversation. Daniil, you know, you're in America now and I know you've been hearing a lot of anxiety from the Jewish community about Vance. And the subtext is how is all of this affecting American Jewry? And I think that maybe that's a topic for another conversation. But in connection to what we've been talking about, how should Israel take American Jewish interests into account in a rapidly changing America? I think that's a conversation that belongs to us. What is our responsibility? Because what has become so clear since October 7th is that decisions that we make here impact on the Diaspora and impact not only on their psychological state, the condition of their comfort level, but can actually have life and death implications. And what does it mean for an American Jewry that based its Americanness and its American Jewishness so heavily on the two flags? On the bema of American synagogues, the entwinement of the American and Israeli flags. This has become a foundational element of American Jewish identity. And when that begins to unravel what is our responsibility not only to ourselves, not only protecting ourselves, but the second largest Jewish community in the world. What do we owe them? And what are the kinds of conversations that we need to be having with them that we both know we're not having now?

Daniil Hartman (30:59)

You know, I want to end with that, Yossi, because I think it was very beautifully stated. It is an unstable time. The rules are changing. I don't know if this podcast was a crying wolf podcast or it certainly wasn't. Jews around the world or Jews in North America, relax, everything is okay. It wasn't that podcast. It was, you know, beware. Things might get worse, but Jews, as I've said, very often were too small to strut. We're too small to be mediocre. We have to plan, we have to think. And the rules are changing and whether Israel could be nimble enough. But it's certainly how the Jewish community, in the midst of all of this instability, it's very, very frightening. It's not anti Semitic in that sense. It's not existential danger. But the intertwining of Israel and Judaism and the relationship between the two and how America is changing and how it will impact on us is something that we have to talk about. And we can't talk about this on partisan lines. This is a little warning. It can't be that people who are on the liberal progressive side say, don't worry, Mamdani's great. He's lighting Hanukkah menorahs, and don't worry, everything's going to be fine. And the only danger is on the right. And it can't be that those on the right on the conservative side saying, oh, don't worry. The only challenges we have are on the progressive side. Like, we gotta do better than that because the consequences are very significant.

Yossi Klein Halevi (32:33)

Yossi, gut gesucht, as they say in Yoss.

Daniil Hartman (32:36)

I don't know if it's gut geucht. We have a lot of thinking to do, and I hope our community will be nimble enough. We need to be. Thank you, Yossi.

Yossi Klein Halevi (32:44)

Thank you.

Daniel Goodman (32:47)

What if prayer doesn't work? This question strikes us as a distinctly modern one, an outgrowth of the slow disenchantment of the world. But in truth, the question is an.

Daniil Hartman (32:58)

Old one and one given space to breathe. Here, from the Shalom Hartman Institute, Thoughts and Prayers is a new podcast that.

Rabbi Jessica Fisher (33:06)

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Daniil Hartman (33:09)

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Yossi Klein Halevi (33:17)

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Rabbi Jessica Fisher (33:22)

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Daniil Hartman (33:25)

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Yossi Klein Halevi (33:28)

What you had in that moment was.

Rabbi Jessica Fisher (33:30)

The pluralism of America and Rabbi Josh.

Daniil Hartman (33:32)

Warshavski Prayer helps me be the best version of myself. It helps me figure out what do I need in my spiritual backpack. Thoughts and prayers Inspiring new connections to Jewish prayer in a changing world. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

Rabbi Jessica Fisher (33:47)

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Daniel Goodman (34:59)

For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and Arc Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schechter and Aviva Kat Manore and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Meital Friedman is our Executive producer and our music was composed by Yuval Samo. Past episodes can be found@arc media.org where you can explore more of Arc Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arcmedia.org and subscribe to Arc Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website@shalomhartman.org.