Waiting

Summary

For Heaven's Sake: Episode Summary – "Waiting"

Host/Authors: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Podcast: For Heaven’s Sake by Ark Media and the Shalom Hartman Institute
Episode Title: Waiting
Duration: Day 648 of Israel at War

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1. Introduction to the Theme: Waiting

In this episode, hosts Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi delve into the pervasive state of anticipation gripping Israeli society amidst ongoing conflict. The theme, aptly titled "Waiting," encapsulates the collective pause as Israel navigates through tumultuous times marked by warfare, political instability, and societal shifts.

Notable Quote:

Donniel Hartman [01:50]: “We want to talk about waiting. What does it look like? We're now waiting to see whether this government is going to fall the haredi draft exemption.”

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2. The Gaza Ceasefire and Hostage Negotiations

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the proposed 60-day ceasefire in Gaza, intricately linked to hostage negotiations. The hosts explore the complexities and moral dilemmas embedded in the plan, which entails the return of hostages in stages and the initiation of ceasefire talks.

Key Points:

• 60-Day Ceasefire Proposal: The plan involves a phased return of hostages, with an initial batch of 10 being released immediately, followed by 18 after 60 days, alongside the commencement of ceasefire negotiations.
• Moral Implications: Yossi expresses concerns about the morality of selective hostage release, drawing a parallel to Holocaust-era "slectia" (selection), which evokes deep ethical questions.
• Government Trust Issues: Both hosts express skepticism about the current government's ability to honor its commitments, fearing that compromises might undermine the ethical foundation of Israel’s response.

Notable Quotes:

Yossi Klein Halevi [04:27]: “I don’t trust the prime minister to do the right thing, to do what 75+% of the country desperately wants, which is a hostage deal and an end to the war.”

Donniel Hartman [05:05]: “Nobody's defined as the end of the war is almost messianic.”

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3. Analyzing the 60-Day Ceasefire Plan

The hosts dissect the feasibility and potential repercussions of the ceasefire plan, questioning whether the gaps between Israel and Hamas are too vast to bridge through negotiations.

Key Points:

• Hostage Selectivity: Donniel critiques the notion of selecting hostages for release, highlighting the inherent immorality and the anxiety it generates within Israeli society.
• Red Lines and Government Stances: There is a deep concern about whether Israel will adhere to its declared red lines, such as not relinquishing the Morag corridor and establishing humanitarian zones in Gaza. The inconsistency between government declarations and potential actions fuels uncertainty.

Notable Quotes:

Yossi Klein Halevi [07:52]: “It sounds frankly Orwellian to me. To concentrate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with the stated goal of encouraging them to leave...”

Donniel Hartman [10:12]: “I think the whole idea, and this is what keeps me up at night, is I think it's a farce.”

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4. The Role and Influence of Haredi Coalitions

A substantial segment is dedicated to the internal political dynamics involving Haredi (ultra-Orthodox Jewish) parties and their influence on the coalition government. The discussion highlights the tension between security needs and the Haredi community’s demands for draft exemptions and societal validation.

Key Points:

• Draft Exemptions: The Haredi community has long sought exemptions from military service, a demand that has consistently strained coalition stability.
• Shifting Dynamics: The potential exit of Haredi parties from the coalition could precipitate new elections, further destabilizing the political landscape.
• Societal Integration: Yossi and Donniel explore the evolving relationship between Haredi communities and broader Israeli society, emphasizing a need for mutual recognition and validation.

Notable Quotes:

Donniel Hartman [21:10]: “If the Haredim are going to leave the coalition, they will because they have nowhere else better to go.”

Yossi Klein Halevi [23:16]: “What they need is our validation that you're a part, part of the struggle.”

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5. Future Elections and Political Uncertainties

The hosts speculate on the potential outcomes of impending elections, considering the fragmentation of the current coalition and the unpredictable strategies of key political figures like Netanyahu.

Key Points:

• Election Timelines: With the current Knesset session nearing its end, the possibility of new elections looms large, likely in the latter half of the year.
• Emerging Political Forces: There's uncertainty about new political entities or shifts that could redefine alliances, especially with figures like Bennett and possibly Bennett's flexibility on Haredi issues.
• Netanyahu’s Tactics: Yossi and Donniel express concerns over Netanyahu's strategic maneuvering to maintain power, often at the cost of coherent policy and ethical governance.

Notable Quotes:

Donniel Hartman [32:40]: “Once we start the fall session of the Knesset, we're at the last year of this government. It's coming to an end.”

Yossi Klein Halevi [33:15]: “Sometimes I feel like my Israeli brain is exploding. There's so much to process, so much pressure, and it's relentless.”

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6. Personal Reflections and Emotional Toll

Throughout the episode, both hosts candidly share their personal anxieties and emotional strains stemming from the ongoing conflict and political instability. They acknowledge the relentless pressure and the toll it takes on their well-being.

Key Points:

• Sleeplessness and Anxiety: Yossi mentions sleepless nights caused by concerns over Gaza and government actions, while Donniel relates his personal frustrations with the war's progression and political rhetoric.
• Empathy Towards Haredi Communities: Both hosts express a nuanced understanding of the Haredi community’s motivations, moving beyond stereotypes to recognize their deep-seated desires for recognition and validation within Israeli society.
• Hope for Ceasefire: Despite the bleak outlook, there remains a glimmer of hope among the hosts for a ceasefire that could potentially bring hostages home and prevent further moral degradation.

Notable Quotes:

Yossi Klein Halevi [33:15]: “Sometimes I feel like my Israeli brain is exploding. There's so much to process, so much pressure, and it's relentless.”

Donniel Hartman [16:09]: “Is that a word you're allowed to say on podcasts? They'll cut it out. It's like there's just all this blah, blah.”

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7. Conclusion and Forward Look

As the episode draws to a close, Donniel and Yossi emphasize the continued state of waiting and the unpredictable nature of the coming months. They leave listeners with a sense of urgency to stay informed and engaged with the unfolding events.

Notable Quote:

Yossi Klein Halevi [34:47]: “This is for heaven's sake. Israel at war. Day 648. Waiting, waiting and waiting.”

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Additional Highlights:

• Promotion of Ilana Steinhein’s Podcast: At the beginning, Donniel highlights Ilana Steinhein’s new podcast, Texting, which explores dilemmas faced by North American Jews through Torah texts.

Notable Quote:

Donniel Hartman [00:11]: “Ilana... the way she reads Jewish texts and learns is just do yourself a favor, check out Texting. It'll be a net benefit for you.”

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Final Thoughts

"Waiting" is a profound exploration of the multifaceted challenges facing Israel in times of conflict. Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi provide an insightful and heartfelt dialogue that not only dissects political maneuvers and military strategies but also delves deep into the societal and emotional currents shaping Israeli consciousness. Through their candid reflections and critical analysis, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the precarious balance between hope and uncertainty that defines this period in Israeli history.

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the "Waiting" episode, providing a structured and detailed overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Daniel Hartman]

Foreign.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You are listening to an art media podcast.

[Daniel Hartman]

Hi, friends. This is Daniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, For Heaven's Sake. Israel at War, a collaboration between the Hartman Institute and ARC Media, and today's day,648. Before we get to our theme for today, I just wanted to alert our listeners to a new podcast from the Hartman Institute from our dear colleague Ilana Steinhein. Her podcast, Texting, is a new series which has been launched. It's a series that deals with the big dilemmas facing North American Jews in conversation with classic and modern Torah texts. Ilana, who was our partner for the first year of For Heaven's Sake, is just one of the great lights of the Jewish world. And she's a remarkable person. And the way she reads Jewish texts and learns is just do yourself a favor, check out texting. It'll be a net benefit for you. And now let's turn to our theme for today. We were struggling with it a little bit, and we came up with the theme, which we called waiting. Because it's really where we are right now. There's been so much action, wars and bombs and running into shelters, and we've shifted from this energy. And like you almost couldn't leave the news. You wanted to know what was happening. All these things, the events, everything was changing. Trips to America, we had to delay. We're wondering when to do it, because when is the next news going to drop and how is the next news drop going to change everything that we have to talk about? And now we're in waiting mode, waiting for a lot of things. There's almost like it's the quiet before the storm. We're waiting to see if there's going to be a hostage deal. We're waiting to see what is the deal that's even going to be put forth. And we want to talk about that. What does it look like? We're now waiting to see whether this government is going to fall the haredi draft exemption. The altar. Every time.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You always do it. I know I get complaints from people. You know, you say words in Hebrew. Do you think it's a private club?

[Daniel Hartman]

You know, haredi is not a Hebrew word anymore. It's true, it's true. But the draft exemption, is it going to come through? Is it not? People are waiting to see whether the government is going to vote for an exemption for the sake of its own survival, which would violate very deeply. It's beyond even the ethos, the core sensibility of the country right now. And we're waiting to see where there's going to be new elections if this government is about to fall. And we'll get into those details, who's going to appear? Is it going to be an election with the same forces? Is somebody else going to emerge? There's tremendous uncertainty. It's not that we're feeling anxiety at the uncertainty, it's just we're waiting. And in our podcast we wanted to spell out what are the central issues that were waiting to hear about. We're waiting to understand and we're waiting to see how they unfold. And we're waiting to see what are the various issues that are going to be all of a sudden central red lines, critical issues, because that's part of this. As it unfolds, new things emerge. So let's start with, in many ways, the biggest waiting game right now, and that is the waiting game of Gaza. How do you understand the essential parts of this waiting game?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So, Danielle, first of all, I think one reason why we had a difficult time coming up with a topic this week is because the very condition of waiting is so amorphous. And so we realize that that itself is the topic. What is it like to live in that condition of waiting? Dare one say expectation? And with the tantalizing possibility of the fall of the government, I am feeling a certain expectation. Now, I haven't allowed myself to feel that in Gaza yet because I, well, I don't trust the government. I don't trust the prime minister to do the right thing, to do what 75+% of the country desperately wants, which is a hostage deal and an end to the war.

[Daniel Hartman]

But what is that? They're now talking about the 60 days. This is 60 days, the 60 day ceasefire. Nobody's yet the end of the war is almost messianic. The idea is let's sign a 60 day, 10 hostages alive are going to come back. At the end of the 60 days, 18 dead hostages will be returned. And from the second day of the hostage deal, negotiations on a ceasefire will begin. And I don't even know if this government could talk about or if the gaps between Israel and Hamas in our expectations are so great, whether the final deal is even achievable. But this 60 days, what are the issues that we're waiting to see unfold?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, obviously the hostages and what some of the hostage families and former hostages have been warning is that if you break this up and you keep 10 hostages for the very end, it's, God forbid, a death sentence. So There is that fear we'll get 10 hostages back and what will be the fate of the last ten?

[Daniel Hartman]

Do you know? And you mentioned that. If I could interrupt for a moment, there's another aspect that was put into this waiting, which I don't know if it's fair. They're calling the picking of the 10A selectia.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah.

[Daniel Hartman]

And selectia is a term which goes back to the Holocaust of who do you pick to live and who do you pick to die. And it's almost as if this selectsia picking is a fundamentally immoral act. But I don't think that's a fair.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

No, no, I don't like the, the Holocaust analogy. I don't like Holocaust analogies in general.

[Daniel Hartman]

What do you want?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Especially in relationships, we're not going to.

[Daniel Hartman]

Get everybody, so you're going to have to pick 10. Is it better than something? Of course it is. But like, how it's going to unfold but you see, has a lot of anxiety, but it's.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's also an expression of the abyss between the majority of Israelis and where the government is at. Majority of Israelis are saying, we want an end to the war. We want all of them back, not in stages. The time of stages is over. We're not there anymore. And so there's this sense of acute anxiety that the country is feeling.

[Daniel Hartman]

But the end of the war option would require Hamas and Israel to agree on some vision of Gaza, which I don't think that agreement yet is even possible. That's why I don't even know what's going to be at the second stage, because why should Hamas agree to something that's against their interest? And why should Israel agree to a ceasefire with Hamas still in power? That's a legitimate argument. The gaps are still huge. So we want something, but it's unachievable. So what we're waiting to see what this 60 Day story is. Now. Israel, in this 60 Day story has also set lines. It set lines. We're not going to give up the Morag Corridor. We want to develop a humanitarian city. We want to create security zones all around Gaza. We want to be able to move in and out with our troops whenever we believe it's there necessary. There's a whole list of things. And so part of what I think we're waiting for is to see, like, at the end of the day, all these red lines and declarations that Israel gave. Are we going to stay by them? Are we going to stand by them? Or are we going to change our minds? Which one of these, do you feel is the most uncertain?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, I'll tell you what's giving me sleepless nights, and that's the, what you mentioned a moment ago, the so called humanitarian city. That's what this government is calling it, and it sounds frankly Orwellian to me. To concentrate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with the stated goal of encouraging them to leave. To leave Gaza risks jeopardizing the most basic moral foundation of this war. Now, listeners know that I have been upholding and defending this war as necessary as in essence, a just and unavoidable war, whose goal was to deny two goals. One was to deny Hamas a base on our borders, and the other was to deny terrorism immunity. You can't hide behind your civilian casualties, appeal to world opinion and in that way have a kind of protection from the idf. And I feel that that's a moral issue, and I've said that repeatedly here. But this is what's causing me sleepless nights and an acute sense of expectation, in the most negative sense, if we begin that process of effectively expelling Palestinians, when you encourage people to leave, what are the tools you're going to use? Then you risk retroactively undoing the legitimacy of this war. And I look at this government, I said, do I trust Smotheridge Ben Ver, for that matter, Netanyahu Katz, our Defense Minister, this is a coalition of the amoral and the immoral, the political cynics and the fanatical ideologues. Do we entrust this very delicate next stage of the Gaza war to these people? And I can tell you, Daniil, it's tearing me apart. And so my anxiety, my hope for the ceasefire is that it will, first of all bring however many hostages home and secondly, forestall this disastrous next move.

[Daniel Hartman]

I feel bad that you're staying up at night even though you know you actually have sleep problems.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I do, I do. And it hasn't been that bad lately.

[Daniel Hartman]

Yeah. All things considered. I think you could actually sleep about your concern, but not sleep for some.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Other reason, because you don't think it's going to happen.

[Daniel Hartman]

I think the whole idea, and this is what keeps me up at night, is I think it's a farce. As people talk about it, 10, 15 billion ranges between dollars and shekel. And with the dollar, shekel rate, it's getting closer. But, you know, with Trump tariffs, the dollar's very low. $10 billion, 5 billion, some astronomical amount of money a year. Like, what are you going to build a tent city for 800,000 people? What about sewage and water and infrastructure? You're just going to put tents. What is this? Like, you're going in overnight camping? It's just the whole thing.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And the IDF has told the government it's not workable of saying, don't put us in a situation where we're going to be guilty of war crimes.

[Daniel Hartman]

And the army says it's going to take a year. And Netanyahu critiques the army and says, give me a plan where I can get it in six months. Like, I think the whole thing is a farce. I think. And this is what aggravates me. A. It's put forth as a way to keep Smotrich and Ben Ver still in the coalition, because eventually we're going to come to a ceasefire. But this is one of those ideas which lets the nationalist, ultra nationalist, or the language of complete victory to be put forth. Yeah, we're going to move people. We're going to put. As if it's going to be so easy. We're going to set this up overnight. And then there'll be a clear separation between Hamas terrorists, because no one's going to get through, obviously, and the civilian populations. And then we'll be able to hand out humanitarian aid. And if all we did, if the goal was to be able to create a separation between Hamas and Gazan civilians, leave it at that. Why say. And from here, we'll make possible the voluntary transfer of the.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Because that's what the far right wants.

[Daniel Hartman]

So this is what's. I'm waiting to see what we really care about. See, because part of what's been happening is all these balloons are being put forth, which have almost nothing to do with the goals that I think we really need to achieve. It has to do with how does this play with person A or with party B, how do I still keep my image going? And we already know, for example, it's been reported, in order to create this city, the key issue is the Morag corridor. Now, none of us know what the new map that was presented in Qatar was, but at least according to the news, the new map says Netanyahu saying, you know what? I could give up on Morag, but Morag is north of Rafiah, and it basically is what enables the creation.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So if you give up on Morag.

[Daniel Hartman]

There'S no city, you're giving up, there's no city. So what are you even doing? Like, we're just. What I'm waiting for is for Israel's government to decide what does it really want? You're constantly presenting these red lines. And when you read the New York Times, profound critique of the way Netanyahu has used politics at multiple stages to prolong the war. And these are things that you and I have talked about. I'm not saying that every one of the things that was in the article was correct, but over and over again, over the last 300.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Well, let's just say that article did not contain any real revelation. Revelations for anyone who's been following.

[Daniel Hartman]

So we've been seeing it over and over again that Netanyahu comes and all of a sudden some new dramatic strategic issue is put forth, that without this, Israel is going to be endangered, that we. This is a new red line. I'm waiting to see even in the first stage, what are our real red lines. Because we know Hamas certainly by the first ceasefire, is not disappearing. We certainly haven't destroyed all of Hamas. We have reports that they are rebuilding some of their elite units, they're rebuilding the military infrastructure, they're able to function better and better. Their officers, they're retraining them, they're able to ambush more effectively. Soldiers are dying. Like, what is your plan?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Do you know, it's interesting, Daniil, thinking about Netanyahu and his relationship with the Israeli mainstream for the first year or so of the war, regardless of whatever his own personal interests and machinations were, his needs were in harmony with what the Israeli public wanted. We all understood that Hamas and Hezbollah must be neutralized and pushed away from our border. We all agreed that Iran cannot achieve nuclear capabilities. Now we're at the next stage.

[Daniel Hartman]

And that's what I'm waiting for. That's what I feel like. I'm waiting. Exactly.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And Netanyahu, it seems to me, is treading water now. He treads water very well.

[Daniel Hartman]

Unbelievable.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Because he's a tactician, he's actually not a master of strategy, but of tactics.

[Daniel Hartman]

Yeah. So like it is, I'm feeling that that's my waiting. But when I put it in the context of what your point was, in order to in many ways hide or preserve the government, hide what his real intent is for another week, another two weeks, he's putting forth something that I think already the legitimacy of the war. Around the world we've lost. But this, even amongst your friends, how do you really justify this type of story? But that this could be a. What do they call it, A fake balloon or some trial. A trial balloon, Something that's not well thought through, no coherent plan on how to do it, probably non implementable. And you're Throwing it out there with consequences which are so profound. And so I'm almost waiting for all of this. I don't know if I'm allowed to say bullshit. Is that a word you're allowed to say on podcasts?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

If not, they'll cut it out.

[Daniel Hartman]

They'll cut it out. It's like there's just all this blah, blah. I'm waiting because there's hostages. I accept that. You can't get all of the hostages back right now in one deal. I would love it, but there's Hamas. And what we want from Hamas, Hamas is not going to give us right now. So I don't know how you're going to resolve that problem. And if you could get 10, I'm willing to celebrate 10. I'm willing to celebrate that. That's a great achievement. I'll take it. I'll take those 10 people alive, those families, all of it. And I know it's not perfect. And I don't know if anybody could come up with the solution right now with Hamas under the. Because the reality is, is that our military pressure hasn't brought Hamas to a position where it believes that surrender is a better option than continuing to fight. The bottom line is that has failed.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, it has failed. And it was predictable. And in fact, it was predicted.

[Daniel Hartman]

By whom?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

By the families of the hostages, by former hostages. They said this is not going to work. And I think that the missing piece here is pressure from the Arab world on Hamas. And until we have a plan in place, till we have some kind of a political option through which we can entice Arab countries.

[Daniel Hartman]

Now you're beginning, you know, you're. Now you're starting like me.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's like I'm getting contagious because here.

[Daniel Hartman]

It is, I'm sitting, I'm listening, and you'll see, like, once you know what it is, once you got deterrence back.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, that's right.

[Daniel Hartman]

Military force is not as attractive to you. You've done what you've won. You're doing exactly what everybody. When are you willing to declare that you've won? And deterrence for you was the critical issue, because the next stage needs political and political is going to require here. How do you defeat Hamas? You don't defeat Hamas by returning the hostages so that you could go now and fight completely. That language again. Now we're really going to go all of Gaza. As if that's going to make a difference. It's by creating political pressure where Hamas leaders are sitting in Gulf States. Put your pressure on Them put your pressure on their money, get other Arab countries to get invested in restructuring Gaza. Then you have that pressure, and then you could have the end of the war.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You know, Daniil, we've been doing this now for so long that we're starting to sound like each other. I know, but let me use some more Daniil language. Yes, I believe we have regained our deterrence to a credible level. Level. I don't believe that we've won. I believe we have enough of a victory that we can then consider political options.

[Daniel Hartman]

But here. But.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And that's the crucial Daniil piece. It's enough of a victory.

[Daniel Hartman]

No, but it's even more than that. Let me be a Daniil. Daniil.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You want to out. You want to raise me a Danielle?

[Daniel Hartman]

I want to raise you with Danielle. It's like I've been listening. Call me back as again, we're now part of ARC Media, but I was just listening to Ron Dermer on really a phenomenal podcast. And part of the problem and my disagreement with Dermer and with the school of thought and Netanyahu's public perception until he signs the deal. And that's part of what I'm waiting. I'm waiting for him to show the difference between his rhetoric and the policies and then to actually say to us, look, you were actually correct from the beginning. Of course everybody wants to get rid of Hamas. There's a complete consensus that nobody wants to end the war and Hamas remains in power. That's not even an option for anybody. But who said the only way to ensure that Hamas is not in power is through military force? It's through pressure of Arab countries or at least trying other options. So we're sort of in this waiting mode to see. We know Netanyahu and Dermer are cooking something. We know Witkoff is cooking something. We know Trump is there. We know the Arab countries are there. We know Hamas doesn't have enough of incentive to agree to a deal, nor is there enough, because there might not be enough pressure. And we're waiting to see what are the red lines of our country. Not the false red lines, not these cities and these plans and all this crap.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Come on.

[Daniel Hartman]

And with unbelievable moral consequences.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

But you see, this is the problem, Daniil, is that, let's say it doesn't happen. God willing, it won't happen. But the damage has already been done to whatever is left of our good name. And for some people, it's as if we've actually done it already.

[Daniel Hartman]

Of course, now it's done. This has been Driving me insane since two months, since the war started. This self destructive language that doesn't even serve our security needs and it's all being put forth into the public discourse by the so called security people. It's driving me insane. So this is. You're not sleeping? I'm not sleeping. This is one thing we're waiting for. We're waiting to see how it resolves. The other big waiting game now is the coalition. It's.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And it's all, you know, of course it's all related.

[Daniel Hartman]

It's all related. It's all related. And if the Haredim are going to leave the coalition, if I can give a little bit of analysis for a second, they will leave the coalition because they have nowhere else better to go. So why would they leave the coalition? The only reason why they would leave the coalition if they feel Netanyahu is about to make a move that's going to call for new elections anyway and they would rather run in the next election outside of the government than in the government so that the next government which might want to sit with them, they would actually recognize that the Haredim, when they make conditions, they're going to stand by them. There's no reason, reason for them to stay in a coalition that doesn't fulfill its commitments to them.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

What do the Haredim need? First of all, there are a few questions here. What do they think they need? What do they think the Israeli public can tolerate and how do they intend to bridge the gap?

[Daniel Hartman]

I think what the Kharidan.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Because if this, I'm sorry. Because if this government can't give them what they need, nobody can.

[Daniel Hartman]

I think what the Kharidium need, they know they can't have. Or there's no way that they get what it is that they think they need.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Which is what?

[Daniel Hartman]

What do they think they need? An Israeli society that believes that the security of Israel is enhanced by the.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Studying of Torah, by the mass study of Torah.

[Daniel Hartman]

What they need is Israeli society to validate their ideology, to validate their new ideology. Because it used to be. I don't serve in the army because I don't want to fight for a Zionist secularist, anti Jewish enterprise. That was the original exemption, had to do with an alienation from Zionism. Zionism is a secular enterprise. It violates God's will in history. It has nothing to do with Jewish law. Redemption of Israel is going to be Messianic. It's not going to be by human force. All of these principles were our core Haredi principles and in which the study of Torah surpasses all else within the tradition. And if for the religious Zionist, settling the land of Israel shapes history, for the Haredi ideology, the study of Torah shapes.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's so interesting what you're saying, because take it one step further. The profound transformation of Haredi society from hostility to the national project to real affection for it is expressed in the transformation of how they themselves view Torah study. Now what they need, what they used to need from the rest of Israeli society is Leave us alone.

[Daniel Hartman]

Exactly.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We don't want anything to do with you now. What they need is our validation that you're a part, part of the struggle.

[Daniel Hartman]

And that you're critical.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We can't fight this war without you, without.

[Daniel Hartman]

They've said it.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And you know, you know something, it's so moving. And I, I haven't thought about it this way until you said this. And there's something really beautiful about it. And what's heartbreaking is we can't give them what they do.

[Daniel Hartman]

Of course you can't.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

We can't do it.

[Daniel Hartman]

This is, you know, it started this way. I love.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

This is such a fine insight.

[Daniel Hartman]

It's like it started this way because how did the whole system fall apart when they wanted to pass a basic law of Torah study in which secular Israel would declare that the study of Torah is an essential right of the state of Israel. And they wanted those who are serving in the army to basically say that you are as important to the country as my son and daughter or father or all of the above who are serving and endangering their lives.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

You know what? You know what? It's even.

[Daniel Hartman]

And the country said, what, are you insane?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's even more than that. Because really, what the Haredim are saying by insisting on an official state acknowledgment of the value of Torah is we love the state and we want the state to represent the highest values of Judaism. We want the state to make our love for it valid. We want to validate our love.

[Daniel Hartman]

And that's what they're never going to get.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

This is hard. This is a heartbreaking moment.

[Daniel Hartman]

They're never going to get it.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

It's going to unnoted and they can't.

[Daniel Hartman]

Achieve it because Israel right now is reeling under the price. You know, today was announced again, three more soldiers. So it was an accident. But when you're doing intensive operations like we're doing now, there's always going to be accidents. Whether we're going to die because there were terrorist attacks against us. Just it's. People are going to die. And every day, and you see these beautiful faces and. And the country says, what you want, I can give. And in many ways, Netanyahu knows that if he gives that, he loses the next election.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I actually want to thank you for this moment, Danil, because I've been struggling to understand the Haredim my whole life. I grew up in a Haredi neighborhood in Borough park in Brooklyn and living in Jerusalem, of course. And it's only now that I understand that we got the whole thing wrong. We are looking at them as opportunists and freeloaders, and they see themselves as.

[Daniel Hartman]

Jilted lovers, as commanders.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

No, no. They're giving us their love, and we're spurning them, and we're spurning them.

[Daniel Hartman]

And it's almost like the Song of Songs where the two beloved never meet each other. There's a tragedy because they now love us. They actually love us or they want us. That's the story they now want to tell about themselves. And I think it's actually a story far more integral to the way more and more Haredim see Israeli society. They're not as alienated, and Israeli society, not at all. Israeli society can't give that. And what they need to do is if they stay in this coalition and a new elections occur because of Gaza, because if Smoch and Benvir caused the next election and they stay inside, their ability to find a coalition partner who will validate their essential role for the future and safety of Israel will be over. They need to be able to say, you want me in the coalition the next elections. Every poll shows that Netanyahu will never be able to form a coalition. But Netanyahu is so astute and so skilled. Who knows if it's not going to get closer? And then the next government may be headed by Bennett, we don't know whom. But if they're going to choose to build a coalition and you need a Haredi party or you need Mansoor Abbas, the ethos in Israel right now, unfortunately, will be a Haredi party is better because the Arab parties are, or at least there's a very broad consensus not to build the next coalition on the basis.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Yeah, I mean, this is a discussion, but it's something we really need to talk about because the Israeli public never understood that Mansour Abbas was breaking with traditional Arab Israeli politics and actually offering us a genuine partnership.

[Daniel Hartman]

He was doing, in many ways, with the Khurd. He's trying to say, I'm here. Yes, I love. I'm. I'm willing to be.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I don't know if he's telling, if he's saying he loves us, but he's saying he's willing to accept us on our own terms. That's pretty defined. Oh, it doesn't get better.

[Daniel Hartman]

He says, I accept Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people. He said those words. What more do you want?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

And not only that, he said it first in Hebrew, then he repeated it to the Arabic media.

[Daniel Hartman]

And in the middle of the war in Gaza. He never broke that because he knew that Israeli society could not accept a dual loyalty at this moment. They needed just to know that you were still loyal for Israel. So he's remained silent. So we have these.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

This is a separate tragedy. This is what really do. And we should unpack it.

[Daniel Hartman]

Okay, so let's leave that for another, because there's a whole conversation about Israeli, Arab, Palestinians and their future in Israel. So the Haredim are banking that in the event that there's going to be another coalition and they become necessary. If I go to the next election and I show that every criteria, the most important thing for me, I'm going to demand it. But I'm not going to demand that you keep your word. Their whole position is meaningless. If they have any hope, it's to show that they stand for something and that they're willing to bring a government down for the holy of holies that they care about.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I don't believe that a Bennett coalition can accommodate them anywhere near their red line. First of all, Lieberman. Lieberman has made the Haredi separatism the essence of his campaign. And I think Yair Lapid would probably be more flexible. Gans, there's nothing to talk about. I'm not sure Bennett would bend on this issue.

[Daniel Hartman]

It's an interesting issue. We don't know. At least the Haredim. They also have a very astute sense of history, country, and they've seen that in the past. Even Lieberman will sit with Haredim at the end of the day.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

So I have to tell you, Danielle, as mo. As moved as I suddenly am through this breakthrough in understanding the dynamics here, as moved as I am by our Haredi brothers and sisters, I still want to do everything possible to break this abnormal and destructive relationship.

[Daniel Hartman]

I'm with you. And the issue that they're fighting about now is principally the sanctions. Say more about sanctions. There's real sanctions for those who. The 70,000 people who have draft notices who aren't showing up, you can't renew your license.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

70,000 Haredi men have gotten draft notices.

[Daniel Hartman]

Now, if you don't respond. There's rules. If you have to renew your driver's license, if you want to travel overseas, they stop you at the airport soon. Part of the sanctions are that if they don't hit a certain number, funding stops, funding stops to the schools. So the sanctions are actually real.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

They won't, in all likelihood, they're not going to start arresting people.

[Daniel Hartman]

That is going to be on the fringe because that will never work. You can, you can't arrest ten thousands of people and they'll love. Please arrest all of us. If that's the sanction here. Put all 70,000 of us and we'll study Torah and we'll study Torah in prison. And what are you going to do? You can't win that one. But when you touch people's pocketbooks and in a more minor way, you can. And so it'll be interesting to see. But all of this, we're watching it and we're waiting because the Haredim have been talking about this for three years, since the coalition started. We're now three years into this coalition. They've been talking and talking about getting this bill, getting this bill, and if not, we're going to leave. And if not, we're going to leave. And if not, we're going to leave. And now Yisrael Degel Torah have left the coalition. Agudat Yisrael even announced that we're going to vote for dismantling the government, which might just be words again. Shas, it seems, is about to tomorrow leave the coalition. Now, all of this is still, we're not sure because all they have to do, it's now July 15th. By July 30th, 31st, the summer session of the Knesset is over, to be reconvened only in October. So if there is no. No confidence vote by the end of July, the government lasts till October. That gives you three months to pressure, to negotiate, to come with a new deal and to say, okay, we're all going to come here, we're going to join. But then, you know, we've been, you and I have been talking about new elections. When are there going to be new elections? This government has lasted it. Please, please remember, if we announce new elections in November or December, the earliest possible time is six months later. You're talking about May, June, which is.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Pretty much the full term.

[Daniel Hartman]

The full term is October. So we're actually coming to the end. Once we start the fall session of the Knesset, we're at the last year of this government. It's coming to an end. So all of this, this waiting into seeing how it plays itself out is all unfolding right now. And we're going to see whether the master Netanyahu, if he gets to the end of the month, what he's able to put forth on the hostage deal, on the haredi, on the elections, and how it's going to unfold. Any additional thoughts that you want to share with us today?

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Not a thought, just a state of mind. Sometimes I feel like my Israeli brain is exploding. There's so much to process, so much pressure, and it's relentless. And it's not going to ease up in the coming months, that's for sure. It will be different. It's going to be very interesting. But the pressure is not easing up.

[Daniel Hartman]

As one of Netanyahu's former closest allies said last night, AIDS said last night on television, it's when everybody else gets tired that Netanyahu is the master. He said to see Netanyahu in moments of pressure and how he wheels and deals, it's like he comes alive.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

I've heard this from someone who was part of his circle saying that when everyone is flagging in the middle of the night, Netanyahu has this preternatural surge of energy and he can go for 20 hours a day.

[Daniel Hartman]

So we don't know. We're also waiting to see this now. There was some open issues for us, Israeli, Arab, Palestinians. A big issue, an issue that we didn't get to is if there are new elections, what are some of the new forces that might emerge? And what, how do we see. There's so many things for us to talk about, and in the meantime, we're waiting. We're waiting. Friends, check out Ilana Steinheins texting. Any time you get to spend with Ilana and with her guests is a net gain for you and a net learning opportunity of real, real deep Torah. Yossi, thank you.

[Yossi Klein Halevi]

Thank you.

[Daniel Hartman]

This is for heaven's sake. Israel at war. Day 648. Waiting, waiting and waiting.