What Do We Know? - For Heaven's Sake

Summary

For Heaven's Sake Podcast: Episode Summary – "What Do We Know?"

Release Date: June 26, 2025
Hosts: Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi
Presented by: Ark Media and the Shalom Hartman Institute

Introduction

In the episode titled "What Do We Know?", hosts Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi engage in a profound discussion reflecting on the recent 12-day conflict involving Israel and Gaza. The conversation delves into the complexities of warfare, the role of international alliances, and the political ramifications within Israel. By exploring what is known and what remains uncertain, the hosts aim to provide clarity amidst the chaos surrounding the ongoing conflict.

The 12-Day War and Its Aftermath

Counting the Days and Human Toll

Donniel opens the episode by emphasizing the personal and national impact of the war, marking "day 628 to the beginning of the war" and highlighting the harrowing statistics of hostages and casualties. He states, “[00:55] Yossi Klein Halevi: The end of the 12 day war,” indicating the conclusion of a brief yet intense period of conflict.

Donniel reflects on the loss of seven soldiers, drawing parallels to past conflicts:
“…when we had Gaza operations and some Golani half track went over a mine and I think it was also seven.” ([01:30] Daniil Hartman)

Military Performance of Israel

Yossi lauds Israel's military prowess, describing the campaign as one of the most extraordinary in the nation's history:
“We gave this our absolute best. For 12 days, we had undisputed superiority in the skies of Iran.” ([06:31] Yossi Klein Halevi)

However, he expresses a critical perspective on the overall sufficiency of the victory:
“I know that it's not enough, the Six Day War, at least militarily, not politically.” ([08:45] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Donniel concurs, noting the strategic planning and execution but questioning the ultimate objectives and outcomes:
“…what we did know with a different hue. And we only have time. We had a list of about 15 of these.” ([13:30] Daniil Hartman)

The American Bombing of Iranian Facilities

Coordination and Execution

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the controversial American bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities. Donniel reveals coordination between Israeli forces and the United States:
“…the Israeli air force preceded them and cleared the way to make sure that there were no existing anti aircraft missile.” ([17:35] Daniil Hartman)

Yossi highlights the unprecedented nature of this military action:
“…America has never bombed a Nuclear facility. We're the only ones who did that.” ([19:00] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Uncertainties and Consequences

Both hosts express uncertainty regarding the extent of the damage inflicted and the long-term implications:
“…significant damage occurred in a number of the facilities. Something. Something was achieved anywhere from the spectrum of light damage to very extensive damage to complete destruction somewhere in that spectrum.” ([22:42] Daniil Hartman)

Donniel raises concerns about the disappearance of over 400 kilograms of weapons-grade enriched uranium:
“...there’s over 400 kilo of weapons grade enriched uranium that has disappeared, that nobody knows where it is.” ([27:35] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Yossi adds, reflecting on the psychological impact on the region:
“…the profound psychological impact of America's move on the region, on the regime, first of all, and on the Arab world.” ([19:37] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Implications for Netanyahu's Government

Public Perception and Polling

The hosts transition to discussing Prime Minister Netanyahu's political standing in the wake of the conflict. Despite military successes, Netanyahu faces diminishing public support:
“…the Likud Party has increased from 22 seats to 26 seats. And for the first time now in since November 2024, it beats a potential Bennett party.” ([34:19] Yossi Klein Halevi)

However, the coalition remains fragile, with internal divisions evident in the polling numbers:
“In both polls, the Bennett party is 24. It used to be... but even though his party has grown, even though again also and in polls which speak about who is your preferred candidate for prime minister, who do you trust the most? Netanyahu has also overtaken Bennett for the first time, but his coalition doesn't change.” ([35:20] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Donniel summarizes the challenge:
“What we know is that Israeli society knows that they don't know and as a result Netanyahu is not receiving the... the public isn't buying it, I know that.” ([32:52] Daniil Hartman)

Broader Implications and Future Outlook

The Role of Pundits and Information Uncertainty

Donniel criticizes the reliability of pundits and media in delivering accurate information:
“…the abundance of what people know to be not only dishonest, I think it's misleading because it's misleading to the moment that we're in right now.” ([05:20] Daniil Hartman)

The hosts emphasize their commitment to honesty and clarity, contrasting their approach with that of pundits:
“We don't claim facts to that same degree. And so to try to create some clarity...” ([06:31] Daniil Hartman)

Potential for Regime Change and Its Consequences

Yossi reflects on the historical challenges of regime change, drawing from his experience in Eastern Europe:
“…I spent a year reporting on regime change in eastern Europe in 1989, 1990, going from one form domino to the other.” ([30:38] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Both hosts express skepticism about the effectiveness of regime change, acknowledging its messy and often counterproductive nature:
“We know that regime change is always bad. We don't know that.” ([30:10] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Looking Ahead

As the episode concludes, the hosts acknowledge the lingering uncertainties and the need for ongoing dialogue:
“...we have to talk this again. There's so many reports about peace that some ceasefire agreements are coming or not going. We chose not to talk about that today…” ([37:00] Daniil Hartman)

Donniel encapsulates the emotional and intellectual journey of the discussion:
“…the foundation of a democracy is talking about what we know. Truth matters. Facts matter. You don't make up facts. And when you don't know, you say you don't know.” ([37:00] Daniil Hartman)

Yossi offers a final reflection, balancing gratitude with uncertainty:
“Despite all the caveats that we've raised... I still am enormously grateful to the state of Israel, even to the government.” ([38:09] Yossi Klein Halevi)

Notable Quotes

Donniel Hartman [00:55]: “Today there's really only one or maybe two numbers. Today's day, 628 to the beginning of the war and to the hostages who are still in Gaza.”
Yossi Klein Halevi [06:31]: “We gave this our absolute best. For 12 days, we had undisputed superiority in the skies of Iran.”
Yossi Klein Halevi [19:00]: “America has never bombed a Nuclear facility. We're the only ones who did that.”
Donniel Hartman [22:42]: “Something was achieved anywhere from the spectrum of light damage to very extensive damage to complete destruction somewhere in that spectrum.”
Yossi Klein Halevi [30:38]: “I spent a year reporting on regime change in eastern Europe in 1989, 1990, going from one form domino to the other.”
Donniel Hartman [37:00]: “The foundation of a democracy is talking about what we know. Truth matters. Facts matter. You don't make up facts. And when you don't know, you say you don't know.”
Yossi Klein Halevi [38:09]: “Despite all the caveats that we've raised... I still am enormously grateful to the state of Israel, even to the government.”

Conclusion

In "What Do We Know?", Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi navigate the tumultuous landscape of recent military actions and their profound implications for Israel and its leadership. By dissecting known facts and acknowledging the vast unknowns, the hosts underscore the complexities of modern warfare and governance. Their candid dialogue serves as a call for transparency and informed discourse, urging listeners to seek clarity amidst uncertainty.

For more insights and detailed discussions, subscribe to the For Heaven's Sake Podcast on YouTube or access the episodes through the provided podcast feed.

Transcript

Daniil Hartman (0:04)

You are listening to an art media podcast. Hi, friends. This is Daniil Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Sholem Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, for Heaven's Sake, Israel at War, a podcast which is a collaboration of the Sholem Hartman Institute on Archimedia. Last podcast, last two, a special episode. We had lots of numbers. Countdown is changing. The numbers are changing. Today there's really only one or maybe two numbers. Today's day, 628 to the beginning of the war and to the hostages who are still in Gaza. And the other number is 50. There's 50 left. 20 alive. 30.

Yossi Klein Halevi (0:55)

The end of the 12 day war.

Daniil Hartman (0:57)

And it's the end. We don't have to count that day anymore. Maybe we're starting to count the days since the end of the 12 Day War. And before we get into today's theme, we're really excited to announce that in addition to being able to listen to the two of us speak each week, our listeners are now able to also see us. We have just launched a video version of our podcast on YouTube. Really excited about that. Again, we don't do personal conversations here, but we do have to talk about how you dress, Elsie.

Yossi Klein Halevi (1:30)

I'm really glad you noticed that, Daniil. You know, I spend so much time on my wardrobe and so there's something gratifying grooming your beard as well. Yes, and there's something gratifying for that to be noticed.

Daniil Hartman (1:43)

So it's the least I could do. Listen, now we're going to see our voices were connected. Now people are going to see the two of us and we could wear.

Yossi Klein Halevi (1:52)

Matching shirts like a boy's band.

Daniil Hartman (1:55)

I think that might be a little much. But in any event, I was told to read this to you, that you can search for us on this YouTube. We now have a YouTube channel. It's called the FHS Podcast, which is For Heaven's Sake Podcast on YouTube. You can also use the link in the show Notes. You can subscribe to our channel, share it with others, and we'll typically release our video episodes a day after the audio version appears on the podcast feed. And even though we barely listened to our own podcast, I'm wondering now whether we'll I may peek our own egos or narcissism will like just to take a look at what we look like might be. But in any event, you know, we're even. There's a little levity, but the truth is there really shouldn't be any levity today. Today's a day in which seven Soldiers were killed in Gaza seven. And I remember in the past when we had Gaza operations and some Golani half track went over a mine and I think it was also seven. The war came to an end. Yeah, seven used to be a big number. And in our tradition, any life which is taken as if you destroy a whole world and today were killed. And we're going to have to talk about the war in Gaza and where it's going, and it's going to need its own podcast. But for today, I want to remember them and realize and recognize that our soldiers are still in tremendous danger in Gaza. And the whole reality of Gaza for our soldiers, for Gazans is just something that. We're going to have to come talk about that again in our other countdowns. It sort of, it was pushed aside and you forgot, but it's coming back. And we want to use the fact that today, despite what happened in Gaza, just the pace of change, the pace of events, the pace of running in and out of shelters, it just has slowed down and it gives us a chance to breathe. And as a result, we're calling today's podcast what We Know and what We Don't Know. Because as people who are following so carefully everything that's happening, the airwaves and social media are filled with pundits who everything about them is they know. And so we've been collecting and reading all these people, what they know and everything that they know is usually only true for between five minutes to 12 minutes to maybe a day, 24 hours. And I find all of this abundance of what people know to be not only dishonest, I think it's misleading because it's misleading to the moment that we're in right now. Because where we are is where there are things that we know and we should try to figure out what they are. Because not everything, it's not everything we don't know. There are things that we know, but there's also a lot of things that we don't know. And I want to go through this with you, Yossi, because I need that clarity myself. I mean, there's so everybody's talking and why they're talking and their political agendas and every. It's just, I think people are going crazy, frankly. I think actually people, they're going insane as events are changing and nobody ever asks a pundit to give an accounting for what they said they knew that they were wrong for. Like, no one ever fires pundits. I want to know, why don't you fire them? So since we're not pundits. We talk about what we understand at any given moment, never claiming more. We talk about what we believe and we talk about our take on our people and our country and our world. We don't claim facts to that same degree. And so to try to create some clarity, there's a whole list of issues that we want to talk about from the war in Iran, the American bombing, state of Israel, and world. We'll get to that list and we'll see as much as we can do. But I think all of us need some more clarity. So what we know and what we don't know. And let's start with the war itself, you know, the 12 Day War, which is now one day over as you look back on it. What are not a whole big list, like, what is it that you know about the war? Like, what could you pocket? And what is it that you know that you don't know?